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Bad Idea Mafia Redux! GAME OVER!

mentosman8

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 27, 2006
Messages
153
Location
Naperville, IL
I figure I should let everyone know, I'm to some extent V/LA till Sunday evening. I've got my laptop and all so I'll prolly be able to check in, but I'm on vacation in EE territory so if I don't post it's cuz I'm busy doing vacation-y stuff(or just at the bar. Either way.)
 

#HBC | FrozeηFlame

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Messages
2,031
Location
Albuquerque, NM
The game is now filled.

I'm sending out role PMs now. You do not need to confirm whether or not you received them.

The game will begin @ 1 A.M. on July 3rd, after I post the D1 start post.

EDIT: All role PMs have been sent out. If you didn't receive a PM please let me know via PM.

All players should take note that a "no posting of screenshots" rule has been added.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
So I know how to break this game for town but I don't know if I should.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
*cracks knuckles*

11 townie
2 cop
3 bomb

1 tactician
1 inheritor
1 godfather

16 town vs. 3 mafia

Seems almost ridiculously unfair for mafia until you see what bombs do: they're townie killers at a 1:1 ratio. If rewired, a 3:1 ratio!

Assuming the mafia gets one correct rewire and kills all bombs, of the 16 town, half would die. That's heavy.

"If you are daykilled, you will cause an explosion that will randomly kill one other town aligned player who is NOT also a bomb. This will not happen if you are night killed, unless you are turned into a Re-wired Bomb by the Mafia Tactician."


Bombs only go off if you are daykilled. NOT modkilled or Night Killed.

As such, all the bombs could simply attempt to Daykill and get modkilled because of it. Bombs don't go off.


13 town vs. 3 mafia

16 players, 3 mafia - 18% chance of hitting mafia (note: this is also mafia's chance at hitting a bomb randomly with a full game)

15/3 - 20%
14/3 - 21%
13/3- 23%
12/3 - 25%
11/3 - 27%
10/3 - 30%
9/3 - 33%
8/3 - 37.5%
7/3 - 42.8%
6/3 - 50% (at this point mafia have won the game)

If mafia are methodical and we DON'T have all the bombs suicide?

16 town players /3 bombs- 18% of mafia hitting a bomb

Since Mafia get TWO chances to do something awesome with Bombs (rewire/ Night kill), that means they get TWO chances to do it.

Not to mention, there's a daykill by someone who isn't a bomb. They can hit a bomb too.

That's three separate 18% chances to hit a bomb, two of which are methodical.

There's danger in trying to rewire someone that isn't a bomb, so you could expect mafia to not do that until later... but that just means that bombs should die early. There's no reason for bombs to live except for their desire to play; this does not help town, and is selfish behavior.

In other words:

Bomb players are detrimental to town, and the best way to implement their win condition is to kill themselves.

Not only does this lengthen the amount of time other townies will live, but it increases the odds that they'll hit mafia (and makes the mafia rewirer guy near useless unless he knows when he's hit a cop).

Looking at the mafia investigator, should he survive the game until later on when people will be more likely to catch someone who hasn't used a daykill:

10 players, 2 mafia left, 2 bombs left

Mafia won't hit themselves, so essentially a 8/2 chance. The mafia then have a 25% of hitting a bomb with a NKill and then a 28.5% chance of getting a bomb with a rewiring.

That's bad for town.



ADDITIONALLY

Bombs cannot daykill.
Cops cannot daykill.
2/3 mafia cannot daykill.

11 townie
2 cop
3 bomb

1 tactician
1 inheritor
1 godfather

A whopping 18.75% of town can't daykill.
36.8% of the entire game can't daykill.

Removing the three bombs?

15% of town can't daykill.
25% of the game can't daykill.

This is much more in town's favor.

Mathematically, it is difficult for town to lose if they simply kill anyone who can't daykill.

I'll go into this more later, but I'm off work. There's a way that make it near impossible for mafia to win that I'll go into detail about later.


Basically, you randomize the players remaining every day with a confirmed player (if possible), he posts the list, and then the first person on that list uses a daykill on another person on the list.

Remove all confirmed townies from the list.

If the person refuses to daykill or simply can't, they are investigated by one of the cops, and the day after if they turn up town you know they are a cop.

Both cops investigates every day, and when it is his turn to daykill he posts all his results, and the other cop will post his as well after confirming whether he is town or not.

This will be entirely random; as to when the cops do this. If it is too early, the other cop can just leave him out to dry and the first cop can post his results and then be daykilled the day following.

The turning point would be when the cops claim and show all their investigations at once.

The game would then turn into a mafia godfather vs. the remaining town, which is then just a crapshoot loaded incredibly in town's favor.
 

mentosman8

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 27, 2006
Messages
153
Location
Naperville, IL
I'd just like to say, Omni/Riddle's hydra name sounds like a nickname for a serial sex-offender. "I AM THE OMNIDIDDLER!"
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
Dammit, I looked for that but didn't see it. :(



I'm particularly interested in the fact that two mafia members can't daykill. We can use that too.
 

Teemo

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 28, 2010
Messages
1
Location
walking to Canada for delicious cheesecake
So basically, you didn't break the game at all. And you're advising random lynching over scumhunting.

Am I right so far?

LOL @ "a crapshoot in town's favor..." by crapshoot do you mean a time where you are forced to scumhunt?
 

Teemo

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 28, 2010
Messages
1
Location
walking to Canada for delicious cheesecake
Not only did you misread the rules and screw up trying to break the game, but you also advocated breaking the rules to get yourself modkilled for your faction's favor (and failed in the process!). After ignoring everything in your post that is null now that you realize that modkilled bombs are treated as daykilled bombs (which is a *lot*), you are just suggesting that people listen to the previously cleared players and shoot who they are told, and if they refuse, they must be investigated because they could be scum (or, they could be townies who think they have a town read on the player they are being told to kill).

Are you the worst thing ever to happen to DGames?
 

Teemo

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 28, 2010
Messages
1
Location
walking to Canada for delicious cheesecake
Also, the fact that two mafia members can't daykill is important, but so is the fact that the only townies who cannot daykill are the ones that need to keep their identities from mafia for fear of empowering them towards domination over town. So "lets make A shoot B" isn't that favorable with exception towards late game.
 

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
11,321
Location
Tri-state area
Dammit, I looked for that but didn't see it. :(



I'm particularly interested in the fact that two mafia members can't daykill. We can use that too.
5 out of the 7 non-shooting roles are anti-town to kill, I'll run the numbers soon and see if it increases the odds of winning if the non-shooters all claim and we shoot them in turn, but somehow i doubt it.


Not only did you misread the rules and screw up trying to break the game, but you also advocated breaking the rules to get yourself modkilled for your faction's favor (and failed in the process!). After ignoring everything in your post that is null now that you realize that modkilled bombs are treated as daykilled bombs (which is a *lot*), you are just suggesting that people listen to the previously cleared players and shoot who they are told, and if they refuse, they must be investigated because they could be scum (or, they could be townies who think they have a town read on the player they are being told to kill).

Are you the worst thing ever to happen to DGames?
Teemo, he attempted to break the game and failed is that so horrible? That's called playing to your wincon (or appearing to play to your wincon since we obviously can't be sure of his side). Nothing horrible happened so just drop it, please.
 

eauxlune

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
0
He didn't ruin the game, but he did provide some intense laughter from the gods of logic and reading comprehension.

Also, since the godfather is in every way like a townie, he can simply become the "random list generator" and proceed to troll the whole game by killing non mafia members.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
We let suspect ppl shoot first. If they can actually shoot it narrows the possiblility of them being scum down to 1/19th

:059:
 

Ronike

Smash Ace
Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
612
Gheb, bombs shouldn't claim period.

So lemme get this straight os, before you were corrected you wanted us to basically not play mafia and instead play Russian roulette? And in addition, you "misread" the rules in such a way that following your plan would have resulted in losing essentially up to half the town? Yeah. Sure.

OS needs to make the daykill today or be killed. IMO at least.
 

Nicholas1024

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
1,075
All bombs should be shot on claim. First off, if they're mafia that's obviously the play, if they aren't then they'll be rewired. Either way, SHOOT THEM!
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
Gheb, bombs shouldn't claim period.

So lemme get this straight os, before you were corrected you wanted us to basically not play mafia and instead play Russian roulette? And in addition, you "misread" the rules in such a way that following your plan would have resulted in losing essentially up to half the town? Yeah. Sure.

OS needs to make the daykill today or be killed. IMO at least.
It isn't russian roulette....

adumbrodeus, let me know when you run the numbers. It's unlikely to help until the numbers are smaller since mafia gets a free kill each time, but eh.


This is an interesting setup, but there's still something I'm missing. Something obvious.

Gheb, how should daykills work? What should be our pattern for them?
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
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May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
From the numbers I'm seeing, basically all bombs should attempt to stay alive until the odds of them being rewired increases. As the odds of being rewired increases, the more dangerous it is to have a bomb in existence. Unfortunately, it leads to 3 deaths each time a bomb dies; bomb death, random townie death, mafia night kill. With three bombs, that's 9 players. Not counting rewires.

Bombs just suck.
 

eauxlune

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
0
I reckon we should use our daykills to gone done shoot dead them ma-fee-uhs, and dem bombs better figger out who dem tacticians are durn fast, eh?

Stop trying to break the game. It's getting obnoxious, especially since you started after role pms were announced.
 

eauxlune

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
0
Oh and what I'm getting from your argument is that "bombs are a detriment to the town"... Wait.. Okay.. And? Isn't that the point?
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
Oh and what I'm getting from your argument is that "bombs are a detriment to the town"... Wait.. Okay.. And? Isn't that the point?
Meaning if we could find a way to get rid of bombs and/or save bombs, that'd be pretty cool.
 

eauxlune

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
0
Kill the mafia before they take advantage of bombs or outsmart the scum by misleading them into diffusing bombs. 3 missed rewires = bombs are saved.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
Kill the mafia before they take advantage of bombs or outsmart the scum by misleading them into diffusing bombs. 3 missed rewires = bombs are saved.
Way ahead of you.





But there may be a concrete way of doing so...
 

Ronike

Smash Ace
Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
612
Yes gheb, thank you for telling me something I talked about extensively last game and that actually happened

os, seriously, just play the **** game.
 

CT Chia

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Messages
24,416
Location
Philadelphia
so are days infinite length until someone shoots?

lol i find it funny that OS thought of all that and missed the one line that kind of ruined it
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
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Messages
21,181
Also Gheb? I disagree with your "if they claim bomb they should be investigated". They should be daykilled immediately by someone who hasn't daykilled yet.

If they claim bomb and someone investigates, the only way town would know not to kill them is if a cop daykilled them or said "I investigated". Not worth it.
 

eauxlune

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
0
Cops cant daykill. Spend less time complaining about the rules and trying to break them, and more time reading the rules.
 

Chaco

Never Logs In
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May 21, 2008
Messages
12,136
Location
NC
Stop trying to break the game. You won't be successful anyhow. FF has worked on this game for quite some time now as well as ran extensive numbers on it I know. Just play the game.
 

Nicholas1024

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
1,075
C'mon OS, quit trying to break the blasted game. Even if you did somehow find a loophole, Frozen would just make a rules patch to fix it. In the meantime, you're just coming up with ridiculous schemes that help mafia way more than town.

Even if we did remove the bombs via modkill without an extra townie dying, we'd still be at 7 town, 3 scum on D4. Also, consider that mafia godfather can shoot to make it 4 town, 2 scum (after we shot him) and mafia inheritor exists... Basically we'd end up with 24 hours on D6 or so to shoot scum or lose. Bad Idea.
 

Teemo

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 28, 2010
Messages
1
Location
walking to Canada for delicious cheesecake
All bombs should be shot on claim. First off, if they're mafia that's obviously the play, if they aren't then they'll be rewired. Either way, SHOOT THEM!
This is awful. This is just dead awful. No. Why would the bomb be rewired if he just claimed? And even if he is rewired, why would that make it okay to shoot him?

I reckon we should use our daykills to gone done shoot dead them ma-fee-uhs, and dem bombs better figger out who dem tacticians are durn fast, eh?

Stop trying to break the game. It's getting obnoxious, especially since you started after role pms were announced.
Kill the mafia before they take advantage of bombs or outsmart the scum by misleading them into diffusing bombs. 3 missed rewires = bombs are saved.
I like you already.

Also Gheb? I disagree with your "if they claim bomb they should be investigated". They should be daykilled immediately by someone who hasn't daykilled yet.

If they claim bomb and someone investigates, the only way town would know not to kill them is if a cop daykilled them or said "I investigated". Not worth it.
What the ****, why is anyone suggesting shooting a bomb?
 
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