Back Room Tier List Opinions

[jimmyjoe]

I would have guessed you weren't born by then..
Silly me

 

[Luco]

Just got smash 64 off Ebay. Can't wait to play again. ^^

 

[darf nate]

i dont get why samus is so bad. All of my friends complain about me using her becuase she owns.

 

[Battlecow]

Tier list is meant for top level play

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

i dont get why samus is so bad. All of my friends complain about me using her becuase she owns.

In short: Samus is bad because she tries to play brawl in a game based on combos.

In long/An explanation:

1. She can't combo to any major extent outside of basics such as down-air to almost anything and is outprioritized and/or outcamped by basically everyone

Spoiler

who isn't Luigi, yay opinions

.
2. She has no positive matchups

Spoiler

outside of Jigglypuff and Ness which is even in my opinion and possibly Luigi as well yay opinions part 2

3. Her down/back/to an extent neutral aerial are her only good moves but just due to light combo potential and range but this results in bad shield pressure due to terrible aerial movement/speed (her aerials are basically only good for combos as said.)
4. Samus's grab is also the worst outside of probably Yoshi which prevents any further aerial pressure.

Furthermore, one of her better keep-off moves is her up b but even that can be smash DI'd out of...unless you are playing the Japanese version.

Ironically, one of if not the best smash 64 player in Japan mains Samus (Josuke) and is the best Samus (almost definitely) so I guess Samus can't be THAT bad

Spoiler

...or at least just in the Japanese version, yay opinions part 3

.

In other words, bad grabs + bad aerial speed + terrible shield pressure + bad projectiles = worst character in the game...easily.

 

[Battlecow]

Samus is, along with DK, one of the only characters to be almost completely unchanged in Japanese version as opposed to (U). The only difference is... maybe the turn slide and I think her Usmash hits 3 times instead of 2 on standing tall characters, so a slightly different hitbox. Less DI and nerfs to other characters might help her, but she remains the same. That's why Jousuke's accomplishments are so impressive when compared to, say, that Link player who got 2nd in '10.

 

[The Star King]

I think she has a higher jump and faster fall (slightly).

And I know almost everyone agrees she's the worst but the gap between her and **** like Luigi and Ness is really small. I wouldn't say she's "easily" the worst character.

 

[asianaussie]

her up-b is better because DI is reduced there

i honestly think that luigi can compete for that 'worst character' place

 

[Battlecow]

I think she has a higher jump and faster fall (slightly).

And I know almost everyone agrees she's the worst but the gap between her and **** like Luigi and Ness is really small. I wouldn't say she's "easily" the worst character.

Where'd you get that? I'm just going off of faint memories of Isai's list.

 

[The Star King]

Jpleal said the Japanese Samus BTT time is slightly faster because of that IIRC.

 

[Sempiternity]

What I want to know is what kind of crack Nintendo was smoking when they made the different region versions for this game. Why the hell did they change these TEENY TINY minor things? Like what Battlecow said, why does the U-Smash differ by ONE hit?

Why the (tiny) histun change? Why the millimeter jump height differences? Why the 1% difference in Yoshi's D-Smash? Why the ****ing color of Link's sword???

I understand that they were maybe trying to balance the game, yet these itty bitty negligible changes are just silly, but conscientious thoughts, which is truly mind-boggling. Somebody actually sat down and said, huh, it would be a great idea to reduce Falcon's F-tilt damage by 1% in the version!

Also, who the **** nerfed the **** out of Link. What an *******.

 

[clubbadubba]

luigi is totally the worst

Hi Surri!

 

[Pink_Kirby]

What I want to know is what kind of crack Nintendo was smoking when they made the different region versions for this game. Why the hell did they change these TEENY TINY minor things? Like what Battlecow said, why does the U-Smash differ by ONE hit?

Why the (tiny) histun change? Why the millimeter jump height differences? Why the 1% difference in Yoshi's D-Smash? Why the ****ing color of Link's sword???

I understand that they were maybe trying to balance the game, yet these itty bitty negligible changes are just silly, but conscientious thoughts, which is truly mind-boggling. Somebody actually sat down and said, huh, it would be a great idea to reduce Falcon's F-tilt damage by 1% in the version!

Also, who the **** nerfed the **** out of Link. What an *******.

I've wondered the same thing as well. The changes seem to make very little sense.

 

[darf nate]

thanks for the informative replies guys ive always wondered this and know i can go watch josuke to see how to play samus better

 

[NixxxoN]

What I want to know is what kind of crack Nintendo was smoking when they made the different region versions for this game. Why the hell did they change these TEENY TINY minor things? Like what Battlecow said, why does the U-Smash differ by ONE hit?

Why the (tiny) histun change? Why the millimeter jump height differences? Why the 1% difference in Yoshi's D-Smash? Why the ****ing color of Link's sword???

I understand that they were maybe trying to balance the game, yet these itty bitty negligible changes are just silly, but conscientious thoughts, which is truly mind-boggling. Somebody actually sat down and said, huh, it would be a great idea to reduce Falcon's F-tilt damage by 1% in the version!

Also, who the **** nerfed the **** out of Link. What an *******.

I've wondered the same thing as well. The changes seem to make very little sense.

The most important one is the DI, which makes A LOT of sense.

The others... well, i suppose they thought that changing stuff would improve the game and balance it more and fix some stuff. Some changes were good, some others weren't.
For example after realizing how nerfed link became, they improved his speed and recovery in the last version of the game, the PAL one
The damage decreasing is maybe for making the matches last longer and making more combos? dunno for sure

 

[Sempiternity]

Some changes were for the good, and while it may sound like I'm complaining about the smaller changes, I'm more baffled that HAL even came up with them in the first place.

I do wish Falcon still had his jump height. Being able to full hop button jump onto the top level of Dreamland just looks so slick.

Here's another example, although it looks like more of a fix than an inane "improvement": Luigi's Dragon Punch. In [J], it sends opponents at a very SLIGHT angle to the side... hardly noticeable, yet in , it sends opponents straight up. Who the **** noticed that? And how come they didn't notice it for the [J] release?

Do the other Smash games have these wonky differences? Doesn't seem like much changed between Melee , [J], and [E].

 

[Battlecow]

PAL melee has the same sort of insane tiny differences coupled with some reasonable ones.

AFAIK J and U are more or less the same, maybe even the exact same, in melee.

They did all the wrong things between J and U, lol. Of course, DI alone makes U better, but... They buffed pika, they nerfed link and ness... Anyone else notice a pattern? The characters that noobs love are considered "too good" and brought down to speed.

 

[t3h Icy]

Pika chu

 

[The Star King]

PAL melee has the same sort of insane tiny differences coupled with some reasonable ones.

AFAIK J and U are more or less the same, maybe even the exact same, in melee.

They did all the wrong things between J and U, lol. Of course, DI alone makes U better, but... They buffed pika, they nerfed link and ness... Anyone else notice a pattern? The characters that noobs love are considered "too good" and brought down to speed.

Not surprising, since competitive Smash didn't really exist back then AFAIK, so they only had the criticism of noobs to go by.

How is Pikachu buffed in U? I thought he was pretty much the same. I know they buffed Fox a bit though lol

 

[Battlecow]

That was one of isai's comments, that pika got a major buff

IIRC the recovery is much worse in J

someone should look it up lol

 

[The Star King]

I tried it out and his recovery had the same distance, speed, and invincibility at the start as far as I can tell.

 

[Sempiternity]

As far as I know, the only major changes to Pikachu were shorter neutral B, increased F-Smash hitbox, and more knockback in his dash attack.

 

[Battlecow]

you got it backwards- thundershock goes farther, Fsmash has a shorter hitbox, dash-attack has less knockback

hm, you right SK, it's his fsmash that got buffed, not his up+b

I guess when I first read that I thought his fsmash was the best thing ever, and now I think his Up+B is the best thing ever, so I got 'em mixed up.

 

[Sempiternity]

Battlebro, you just contradicted yourself. You said I got it backwards, but then proceed to say his F-Smash got buffed (exactly what I said).

????????

My post was talking about Pikachu, and how he changed ("...the only major changes...") from [J], if that wasn't clear.

I guess, semantically-speaking, you can only say "buff/nerf" when referring to the version, since [J] came first.

 

[Battlecow]

ooh, gotcha

I'm derping

I thought YOU meant from U to J, but then I used J to U myself... confusing ****, you're correct tho

 

[t3h Icy]

Kirb y

 

[Glöwworm]

Link's Kirby-esque up-tilt in Dairantou Smash... too good.

 

[Olikus]

Like every kirby move is better in J, im starting to think he might be better than pika in J.

 

[The Star King]

By every Kirby move you mean his FThrow?

And no.

 

[Sangoku]

Real pros only use fthrow when they pick Kirby, so yes.

 

[Olikus]

By every Kirby move you mean his FThrow?

And no.

Wut? all his moves are more powerfull. we talking about J version right?

 

[The Star King]

I tried it out and as far as I can tell most of his moves were the same other than the different fthrow trajectory and rock being slightly stronger in J. Plus I've never heard that before.

 

[M!nt]

Unless this is wrong, I think malva wrote this.
Kirby

• F-Throw has flatter knockback trajectory
• Up-B goes slightly higher
• D-Smash is 2% stronger
• U-Smash is 2% stronger
• U-Air is 2% stronger for the beginning frames, 1% stronger midway into the attack, same strength for the ending of the attack
• Down-B is 2% stronger
• Roll is slightly longer.
• Can do Japanese turning slide

 

[The Star King]

OK but what about knockback changes? Those don't sound as significant as Olikus made them seem.

 

[Olikus]

his not super better, but he is better, and pika is a bit worse, so theyr pretty close in level in J version.

 

[Battlecow]

OK but what about knockback changes? Those don't sound as significant as Olikus made them seem.

I think there are corresponding KB changes along with every damage change in Isai's list.

 

[asianaussie]

kirby got a bunch of 'decent' buffs but nothing truly amazing (except f-throw for early gimps and UAIR of course), pika is still probably the best because he wasn't nerfed aside from a smaller f-smash (and real pros edgeguard with jab anyway)

 

[Battlecow]

DL only too, so you'd think Pika would ****

DI+Hitstun differences probably make a much larger impact character-by-character, though, and the changes on other chars might affect pika and kirby differently

You see more kirby than Pika at top level play in Japan, so...

TLDR I wanna see a tierlist from them, just to know how they think. Inb4 samus is #1.

 

[asianaussie]

mario top tier in japan

fireball > aerial = 2good

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I like using the Japanese falcon, his speed/jumps make comboing fun and somehow easier.