Back Room Tier List Opinions

[Luxord]

I disagree. They assume pretty much an identical position to their respective games.

Agreed with KF. If you see a serious Winner's/Grand Finals with one/two Pikachus the gameplay is disturbingly similar to MK play. Very campy aerials to avoid punishment and once a hit gets off momentum shifts. Although momentum can shift back a lot easier in 64 I suppose.

But even in terms of recovery, both are very strong and both have the "best" recoveries for their respective games.

PS) But I guess Pikachu has never been suggested (seriousuly) for a ban for two main reasons:
1. The competitive nature in smash 64 is nothing like the extremelyuptightaboutwinning East Coast in brawl and,
2. A more skilled player will usually will in 64 while being slightly underskilled but using MK can get the win.

 

[SSBPete]

I do wish Falcon still had his jump height. Being able to full hop button jump onto the top level of Dreamland just looks so slick.

**** dat, yoshi sh perfect landing on DL platforms all day

 

[Sangoku]

^ Yeah I just noticed it in recent prince matches. Would be so useful.

 

[asianaussie]

so i remembered this thread was a thing

concerning luigi vs puff

I'VE tested it properly. And it's not boring from the Puff side (everything is boring as Luigi). People act like they're sure Luigi pwns Puff so it's not an uncertainty thing.

EDIT: Probably should have responded somewhere in the 64 boards... uh, FC!!1!!11!

don't get me wrong, i don't think it's luigi >>> puff...in fact im pretty uncertain about this, i loathe playing as jigglypuff and im not much better for luigi, except on heavies/mario

because of my inexperience idk how well jiggs can combo luigi with anything that isn't d-air > u-tilt > rest, but unless jiggs can zero-death every time off a random hit on *hyrule* (i stress this point) i would hand the small advantage to luigi

 

[King Funk]

PS) But I guess Pikachu has never been suggested (seriousuly) for a ban for two main reasons:
1. The competitive nature in smash 64 is nothing like the extremelyuptightaboutwinning East Coast in brawl and,
2. A more skilled player will usually will in 64 while being slightly underskilled but using MK can get the win.

1. I disagree. I think it is still really uptight in the 64 community. Look at almost any Apex set that isn't Isai vs Boom, especially one like Kefit vs Sensei.
2. That's because Brawl is almost exclusively a footsie game while 64 is a game where one hit can lead to serious punishment or a stock. Doesn't really mean 64 takes more skill in general, but rather that basic spacing matters a lot more and makes a huge difference.

There are also only 12 characters in this game, banning one would be overkill. I still believe the MK ban is the worst thing that has ever happened to smash in general (even though since Apex it hasn't been applied as much as people thought it would).

But aside from that Pikachu IS the Meta Knight of this game. No bad matchups, good on all stages, best aerials, great ground options, best recovery (not necessarily for all matchups but still the best overall). Also by far the best pick for doubles. He's pretty much on a tier of his own and dominates the game.

 

[Battlecow]

Eh, not qualified to comment because I don't have a great idea of how dominant MK was in brawl, but banning pikachu is ridiculous. Yeah, pika's the best choice, but you ban pika and, depending on ruleset, either kirby or fox becomes the best choice and then you ban them, and so on and so forth. Pika's not unbeatable by any means.

 

[The Star King]

so i remembered this thread was a thing

concerning luigi vs puff



don't get me wrong, i don't think it's luigi >>> puff...in fact im pretty uncertain about this, i loathe playing as jigglypuff and im not much better for luigi, except on heavies/mario

because of my inexperience idk how well jiggs can combo luigi with anything that isn't d-air > u-tilt > rest, but unless jiggs can zero-death every time off a random hit on *hyrule* (i stress this point) i would hand the small advantage to luigi

Last paragraph: so you'll only consider Puff's combo game? Wat.

 

[Ninja in Overalls]

i think puff should be banned for having an overly obnoxious taunt.

 

[asianaussie]

Last paragraph: so you'll only consider Puff's combo game? Wat.

yes, because that is the only factor i ever consider in any matchup ever >_>

i don't think puff has any big advantage over luigi in the spacing war (mainly because puff's random hits (mainly n-air) don't lead into kills as consistently as luigi's stuff imo (aside from d-air, hitting a shield and dashgrabs(?) of course), a number of factors like recovery and edgeguarding are made less relevant with luigi's off-the-top kills and puff's probable rest kills (for the record i think that unless puff is recovering high, she should be dead)

probably lots more to consider but i don't really care for this matchup lol, just trying to revive discussion

 

[SSBPete]

i think puff should be banned for having an overly obnoxious taunt.

couldn't agree more

even her sing pisses me off

 

[The Star King]

Jigglypuff's taunt is adorable what is wrong with you people

I don't like the sound of Pikachu's taunt TBH

 

[RickySSB]

Jigglypuff's taunt is adorable what is wrong with you people

I don't like the sound of Pikachu's taunt TBH

I like both.
DK taunt is more annoying

 

[Sangoku]

Link's is the most annoying to me. Or maybe it's because I don't like playing against good Links in general.

 

[The Star King]

Link's taunt is just weird

I heard Europe is filled with campy Links

 

[Olikus]

Link's taunt is just weird

I heard Europe is filled with campy Links

funks link says hello.

 

[AmishTechnology]

Kirby's taunt always makes me mad.

Fox's taunt is the most meh.

Mario's taunt is either really hilarious or a bit aggravating.

Captain Falcon's taunt is great. I don't mind getting taunted by him at all.

 

[Krynxe]

DK's taunt is justified after something dumb happens.

It's pretty much an "iunno" taunt, imo.

Also, I think we can all agree that this game would be unplayable if Kirby's taunt cancel actually had its audio.

 

[SSBPete]

tell that to james' 'pivot taunt cancel release sucked in ability ko'

which acutally does make an audio when the star pops out of kirby

 

[The Star King]

Dude I SOOOOOOOO wish that Kirby's taunt cancel included the "HIIII". With the Melee version, which is better than 64 version (as in more obnoxious).

Fox would be pretty cool too ("hehehehehehehehehe")

Samus has the most underrated taunt. It doesn't seem good on paper/just if you look at it alone, but when I blast someone with an aerial charge shot, I do a fair so only one hit comes out, land, and pivot taunt in the direction they were sent. It's kind of like "cool guys don't look explosions". Samus has her back to the explosion of your death. You can't really do that with most taunts because they tend to face the screen.

 

[The Star King]

Wait this isn't the taunt thread. And I could've SWORN I responded to this:

yes, because that is the only factor i ever consider in any matchup ever >_>

i don't think puff has any big advantage over luigi in the spacing war (mainly because puff's random hits (mainly n-air) don't lead into kills as consistently as luigi's stuff imo (aside from d-air, hitting a shield and dashgrabs(?) of course), a number of factors like recovery and edgeguarding are made less relevant with luigi's off-the-top kills and puff's probable rest kills (for the record i think that unless puff is recovering high, she should be dead)

probably lots more to consider but i don't really care for this matchup lol, just trying to revive discussion

Puff does have an advantage in approach. She can wall him out with nairs, and he can't do anything because he's Luigi. And Luigi's stuff does not lead into kills consistently. Unless perhaps the Puff is playing the match-up wrong and trying to approach with dairs or something. Which is one of my theories for why everyone thinks Luigi pwns Puff BTW, everyone tries the usual Puff dair stuff and gets destroyed. Fragments.

"Unless recovering high Puff should be dead" applies to Luigi as well - actually, TBH Luigi should be dead once he goes offstage period. Puff can just mindlessly DSmash and Luigi cannot really do anything except pray for reverse ledge DI.

 

[asianaussie]

incoming: lots of assumptions and open questions that i don't have definitive answers to because lol this matchup

what can puff do to a luigi jumping around above her?
why should luigi have to approach at all?
does luigi fair beat out/trade with jiggs nair?

and maybe luigi does not lead into kills consistently, but if you assume puff manages to avoid all of luigi's easy lolup-b lead-ins, then she would have to be playing supremely safe, reduced to nothing but pure safe spacing using n-air's range advantage

 

[The Star King]

what can puff do to a luigi jumping around above her?

Utilt trades or beats dair which is advantageous for Puff even if it's a trade. If Luigi is landing from above Puff can get under him with a pivot utilt. Or she can wait for him to land and attack him as he lands (which is a universally good tactic BTW, see Isai's Pika ditto guide).

why should luigi have to approach at all?

Why should Puff have to approach? And if Luigi sits around Puff can start poking at him with in-and-out nairs (kind of like Melee Puff) and make him do something.

does luigi fair beat out/trade with jiggs nair?

It likely trades. But you shouldn't be challenging in a situation where a trade like that will occur. A good time to poke at him with a nair is, for example, if he's on the ground and won't be able to jump + get out his fair in time. If Luigi is coming down from the air don't jump into him with a nair, pivot away and short hop nair as he lands or pivot utilt under him. This is all kind of hard to put into words so sorry if I'm unclear.

and maybe luigi does not lead into kills consistently, but if you assume puff manages to avoid all of luigi's easy lolup-b lead-ins, then she would have to be playing supremely safe, reduced to nothing but pure safe spacing using n-air's range advantage

You're somewhat right. Puff has to play the match-up pretty safe. Point? And I'm not sure what you mean by easy up-B lead-ins, he can only really get one off a uair which is really hard to land on the Puff style I'm describing, which tends to stay low (almost like a lesser Kirby playing with his tilts and short hop aerials). Or a dair I guess if the Puff is bad at DIing.

 

[asianaussie]

Utilt trades or beats dair which is advantageous for Puff even if it's a trade. If Luigi is landing from above Puff can get under him with a pivot utilt. Or she can wait for him to land and attack him as he lands (which is a universally good tactic BTW, see Isai's Pika ditto guide).

Forgot about U-Tilt, I guess well-timed U-Tilts are useful here, probably her only reliable lead into Rest (and if it's in the middle of Hyrule/tent, it might not even KO). One mistake though, and Luigi gets an opening for D-Air > grab (or D-Air U-Air if they're bad at DIing), or he can slightly delay his fall with Down-B for free damage (risky and probably punishable if it only hits once on shield).

Why should Puff have to approach? And if Luigi sits around Puff can start poking at him with in-and-out nairs (kind of like Melee Puff) and make him do something.

Defensive fireballs (hur hur Luigi has projectiles now?) force approach just like any other projectile. According to you Puff will be sitting low, so fireballs are relevant. Not going anywhere with this point, Fireballs are pretty terrible.

It likely trades. But you shouldn't be challenging in a situation where a trade like that will occur. A good time to poke at him with a nair is, for example, if he's on the ground and won't be able to jump + get out his fair in time. If Luigi is coming down from the air don't jump into him with a nair, pivot away and short hop nair as he lands or pivot utilt under him. This is all kind of hard to put into words so sorry if I'm unclear.

Meh, this is a very specific situational discussion which will devolve into 'oh yeah but then X does this and Y can't react'. A lot of the pivot options apply to Luigi as well (Luigi's pivot is one of his best tools imo), but he can't be as reckless with attacking after the pivots due to no fast, difficult-to-punish moves like Puff's retreating N-Air (maybe well-spaced D-smash, retreating D-air idk)...I'm also being a bit unclear but I think you know what I mean, defensive + alert Luigi is the best Luigi.

You're somewhat right. Puff has to play the match-up pretty safe. Point? And I'm not sure what you mean by easy up-B lead-ins, he can only really get one off a uair which is really hard to land on the Puff style I'm describing, which tends to stay low (almost like a lesser Kirby playing with his tilts and short hop aerials). Or a dair I guess if the Puff is bad at DIing.

I honestly don't know the matchup, but what I'm saying is that Puff does not have a stupid number of viable options or something that covers everything. N-Air is cool, but only goes so far. She's basically limited to that and D-Air (B-Air if necessary), plus U-Tilts. Luigi merely has to get a favourable trade anywhere from 20 to like 60% and that's probably a stock. He can also just keep getting random hits and kill with F-Throw or U-Smash. What you said about getting them as they land applies to Luigi too, plus his short hop is weird and lets him float just above short hop N-Air range as long as they're not right next to each other - applies to hops etc too.

Endless situations to name from both ends (not even counting stage stuff, nod to Hyrule), but I don't think Puff has good options to completely shut Luigi down, which most other characters (who do have clear advantages over Luigi) do have. Not convinced it's Puff advantage.

Luigi is still terrible though.

 

[The Star King]

Forgot about U-Tilt, I guess well-timed U-Tilts are useful here, probably her only reliable lead into Rest (and if it's in the middle of Hyrule/tent, it might not even KO). One mistake though, and Luigi gets an opening for D-Air > grab (or D-Air U-Air if they're bad at DIing), or he can slightly delay his fall with Down-B for free damage (risky and probably punishable if it only hits once on shield).

If your DI is good enough you can avoid Dair -> grab too. Don't forget that Luigi's aerial mobility is absolute trash. I have never seen anybody do the down-B thing, I guess it could work but it sounds super gimmicky and risky (I actually thought of this as I was typing the pivot utilt thing and you thought of the exact same thing lol).

Defensive fireballs (hur hur Luigi has projectiles now?) force approach just like any other projectile. According to you Puff will be sitting low, so fireballs are relevant. Not going anywhere with this point, Fireballs are pretty terrible.

Puff can nair through fireballs and practically pretend they're not there. And if Puff gets hit by one nobody cares, and they don't really limit Puff at all or aid Luigi's approach. Yeah Luigi fireballs suck.

Meh, this is a very specific situational discussion which will devolve into 'oh yeah but then X does this and Y can't react'. A lot of the pivot options apply to Luigi as well (Luigi's pivot is one of his best tools imo), but he can't be as reckless with attacking after the pivots due to no fast, difficult-to-punish moves like Puff's retreating N-Air (maybe well-spaced D-smash, retreating D-air idk)...I'm also being a bit unclear but I think you know what I mean, defensive + alert Luigi is the best Luigi.

What can do Luigi do with a pivot against a spaced nair? Nothing.

I honestly don't know the matchup, but what I'm saying is that Puff does not have a stupid number of viable options or something that covers everything. N-Air is cool, but only goes so far. She's basically limited to that and D-Air (B-Air if necessary), plus U-Tilts. Luigi merely has to get a favourable trade anywhere from 20 to like 60% and that's probably a stock. He can also just keep getting random hits and kill with F-Throw or U-Smash. What you said about getting them as they land applies to Luigi too, plus his short hop is weird and lets him float just above short hop N-Air range as long as they're not right next to each other - applies to hops etc too.

It's OK if you limit yourself to mostly playing around with Nair, it's all Puff needs. A "favourable trade anywhere from 20 to like 60%" is a stock only if you're trading with uair or usmash which are pretty easy to play around. Yes, you're kind of limiting yourself, but it doesn't matter because Luigi himself is super limited in approach (worst approach in the game honestly, he's lucky Samus has no combo game).

Endless situations to name from both ends (not even counting stage stuff, nod to Hyrule), but I don't think Puff has good options to completely shut Luigi down, which most other characters (who do have clear advantages over Luigi) do have. Not convinced it's Puff advantage.

Luigi is still terrible though.

I don't really think there are even that many situations to talk about just because of how limited Luigi is and how easy he is to shut down, but whatever. I never actually argued it's Puff advantage. The only stance I've publicly taken (heh) is that Luigi does not destroy Puff. Just putting out some of the things Puff can do

P.S. I don't think theorycrafting is really my thing

 

[asianaussie]

theorycrafting is terrible because it's just laying out all the possible situations that can unfold from one concept...in the actual game you won't be calculating with risk trees and stuff, you'll be watching for them to n-air and not retreat far enough, and that's when you swoop

and as long as you don't actually think puff > luigi then im fine with i, honestly what you've said (mainly u-tilt, that thing is ginormous) has put it to slight advantage luigi (hyrule) to even (DL i guess idk)

the more important point is that luigi is terrible and not much changes this

luigi should be the new ness imo

 

[The Star King]

I actually do calculate with risk trees and stuff. OK, not really, but I'm actually halfway serious in a way. After enough experience you know instinctively what's risky or not, so you aren't really CONSCIOUSLY CALCULATING but you know the risks and rewards without thinking based through experience. Or something.

BTW that's mostly how I come up with this stuff. I don't think of this and then apply it to in-game play. I instinctively play a certain way, and then later think about the reasons why. My subconscious is the innovator. Weird? Maybe.

 

[asianaussie]

the obvious (and completely serious) answer is that you play this game too much

would normally be taking the piss, but i don't think im wrong here lol

not a bad thing

 

[The Star King]

Probably true for my 2009 and maybe 2010 self. Don't play that much these days

Sometimes I wonder if my quick rise is due to natural talent, or playing way too ****ing much. Maybe a combo.

 

[clubbadubba]

luigi >> puff

sk don't you remember playing A$'s luigi with your puff in that 12 char battle? It was pretty one sided in that he 3 stocked you even though you won most of the other matchups by a stock or 2.

Results>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>Theorycrafting, fact.

 

[asianaussie]

oi guys link got second at APEX omg that makes him high tier rite!?!?!1!!!1

 

[clubbadubba]

At least top 6.

but seriously results between evenly matched players >>> theorycrafting

 

[Fish641]

oi guys link got second at APEX omg that makes him high tier rite!?!?!1!!!1

Well it does question the application of tiers in this particular game. I mean obviously link is worse than falcon, but is it by enough that he's considered in a totally different tier of characters? Dunno.

 

[Sangoku]

It doesn't question anything since tiers are only applicable for 2 players of the same/top level... It's just that this game is more balanced than other smash games.

 

[asianaussie]

it was also a post drenched in sarcasm

isai's name alone is an argument that let's you disregard some things which probably shouldn't be disregarded

 

[The Star King]

luigi >> puff

sk don't you remember playing A$'s luigi with your puff in that 12 char battle? It was pretty one sided in that he 3 stocked you even though you won most of the other matchups by a stock or 2.

Uh, this didn't happen. I'm sure.

>_______________>

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

Luigi isn't that bad, wtf is wrong with you.

 

[Sangoku]

I think a lot of you don't know this, but if you hit someone with luigi's upb and you get lucky, there will sometimes be a PING sound and fire and the ennemy will be sent far and he will have a lot of % and he will die and you will win.

Also: Luigi puff is 90:10

 

[clubbadubba]

Uh, this didn't happen. I'm sure.

>_______________>

Totally happened, I'm also sure. Though I'm not sure if that emoticon things your joking, so forgive me if it does.

 

[The Star King]

It didn't. I wrote down what happened in the battle that night in a Word document for future reference (wut). I trust my few hours old memory more than your 8 month memory. In addition, if you haven't noticed Luigi vs Puff is a special match-up to me, and I would remember if I ever played A$ in it, because the results would be significant/interesting to me. AND I would try to avoid picking Puff is Luigi is around, since A$ claimed he has an advantage vs Boom's Puff or whatever. I thought pretty carefully about my character choices if you remember, probably more than he did.

"-First match, A$’s DK vs my Samus on Hyrule. I win by one stock. This game was played on NRage, which I'm not really comfortable on with keyboard because it somehow feels different, and we switched to Jabo after this game. (55 A$ – 56 Star King)
-He picks Ness and finishes off my Samus without losing a stock, I think (might have lost a stock?). (55 – 55)
-I change to Dreamland, he changes to Mario and I pick Yoshi. I win by one stock. (50 – 51)
-He changes to Hyrule, I pick Link and he picks Fox. He wins by two stocks. (47 – 46)
-I use my last Yoshi stock but he beats it without losing a stock lol(47 – 45)
-I change to Dreamland, he picks Luigi and I pick Falcon. I won by four stocks. He salty bro. (42 – 44)
-He picks Yoshi. “Let’s get this **** out of the way”. I won with two stocks left. (37 – 42)
-He changes to Hyrule. I pick Fox and he picks Fox. I win with three stocks left (might have been two). (35 – 40)
-He picks Pikachu and wins with four stock left (might have been three). (34 – 37)
-I pick Falcon with two stocks left, and he beats it with two stocks left. (32 – 35)
-I pick Pikachu and finish his off with four stocks left. (30 – 34)
-He picks Kirby and wins with one stock left. (26 – 30)
-I pick Jigglypuff and win with four stocks left. (25 – 29)
-He changes to Dreamland, I pick Kirby and he picks Falcon. I win by three stocks. (20 – 27)
-He changes to Hyrule, I stay Kirby and he picks Puff. He wins by one stock. (16 – 24)
-I pick Mario and win with four stocks left. (15 – 23)
-He picks Ness and wins with two stocks left. (12 – 19)
-I pick Jigglypuff and win with one stock left. (10 – 16)
-He picks Samus and wins with four stocks left. (9 – 15)
-I pick Luigi and win with two stocks left (5 – 12).
-He picks Link and wins with four stocks left (4 – 10).
-I change to Dreamland, pick DK and win with two stocks left. (Star King wins by 7)."

As you can see, I wasn't that sure about stock numbers, but I'm pretty sure about the characters/stages. You're probably confusing it with my Kirby vs his Falcon for "evidence from Star King vs A$ 12 char battle". Because my Kirby 3 stocked his Falcon and you were like "woah bro Kirby pwns Falcon evidence lawl"

 

[clubbadubba]

oh man, I was totally about to look up that post I made and own you.

But then you reminded me it was about kirby v falcon not luigi v puff. You win this round!

But seriously, kirby owns falcon, evidence