"Avalanche": Cloud combo, moveset, and tech sharing thread

[Iron Maw]

Fsmash can kill at 78% at least on light characters so far without needing to be right near the edge. Seems like a really good punish tool.
https://youtu.be/78-Jc8-41Po?t=235

 

[Mr.Seven]

I saw ZeRo mention that a nice way to get some early damage is down throw to reverse Cross-Slash. Pretty reliable at low percentages.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Can anyone check if Side B 2 into Down Smash is a true combo?

It's not.

 

[FightingPolygon]

Down Throw -> Bair at mid percents?

 

[Daisy101]

Found something with Down Throw with Back air around 25% it work on Sonic, working on sheik too, gonna check if it does all on the roster.
Forgot to mention it, with Limit you can do this combo at 25%, without 30% i believe, -10 i believe against light characters and + against heavy

Got beated. sorry polygon.

 

[Chiroz]

Clouds normal Side B one jab locks opponents, it seems to be at a decently good percent too, around 60-70. Maybe you can d-throw opponent forcing hard tech on platform -> side b one jablock -> whatever

Nair to LB Side B is a confirm, I'm not sure if this was mentioned yet.

It's a confirm at all %s?

 

[FallofBrawl]

It's a confirm at all %s?

Its a kill confirm around 60-80, depending on where you pull it off/character weight.

Woop, found Voids Cloud beating ZeRo's Sheik in friendlies (second kill is Nair to LB Side B): https://twitter.com/gsmVoiD/status/677742946150551552

 

[ih8ih8sn0w]

(not sure if this was mentioned before or not, I skimmed through and didn't see much around what you can do after a side b) I was playing around with throw options in training when i noticed that you could do the normal d-throw into reverse side b at 0%, dash, regrab, down throw, reverse side b again, does around 50% depending on various things, so I went through the cast to see who this would work on...

I haven't been able to test it with someone else, but with turning on jump in training, (not really reliable, but its better than nothing when you are alone on 3ds) I was able to get it to work all the way through on Yoshi, Rosalina, Bowser jr, Samus, Ganonforf, Palutena, Charizard, Villager, Olimar, and Wii Fit Trainer.

Bowser, Shiek, Toon Link, Donkey Kong, Pit, Ike, King Dedede, Pikachu, Caption Falcon, Dark Pit, and Marth/Lucina can be hit by the second grab if they don't tech or spam jump.

This isn't guaranteed afaik since I haven't been able to test with an opponent DI'ing, or trying to jump out, but it would be something interesting to test, since it could mean a free 60%.

 

[Lemonade Candy]

Bair > Nair > Side B?

 

[「 Derk 」]

Gonna put some stuff I found over the past couple of days. Some of it is already mentioned throughout the thread I'm sure.

Spoiler

All tested against Marth
0%
up air → up air (26% damage)
up air → up tilt (21% damage)
more up tilts are possible after the first but they are not true combos.

20%
up air → up smash (25%-26% damage)
stops working at 45%
nair → down smash (24% damage)
stops working at 45%
nair → down tilt (15% damage)
up air → climhazzard (25% damage)

30%
nair → down tilt → uair (28% damage)
Bread and butter.
nair → climhazzard (23% damage)
nair → down tilt → nair (23% damage)
nair → cross slash (27% damage)
Works until around 70% but stops being reliable at around 45-50%. Is a kill combo with limit.
nair → forward tilt (19% damage)

40%
up air → finishing touch (14% damage)
Kills. Enough said
up air → bair (26% damage)
full hop down air → fair (22% damage)
spikes offstage for early kills. also works with uair at high percents for true combo kills.
up air → nair (21% damage)
nair → down tilt → climhazzard (19% damage)
down tilt → climhazzard (11% damage)

Kill options:
full hop dair → fair spike offstage at 40%+
full hop dair → uair at 110%+
up air → finishing touch at 40-50%
nair → cross slash limit breaker at 50-60% kills. After that it is hard to combo together due to DI
Limit Break Blade Beam is fairly good for landing traps/mix ups and has little or no commitment to it. You can also jump offstage and throw it at the ledge to guard recoveries. It's impossible to grab ledge through it for most characters and kills at like 70%. If someone is recovering low on you this is a nice option. It's also super flashy

edit: Derp. Forgot how to spoiler for a sec

 

[mobilisq]

Made a thread but it got locked for whatever reason so I'm jumping in here to say: cloud has a DITCIT/glide toss that is on par with the likes of mewtwo and megaman. Something to keep in mind when playing characters who can spawn items

 

[hotdogturtle]

Do you guys think that c-stick smashes are necessary for good Cloud play? Ever since Smash 4 came out I've been using stick tilts (because of that aerial momentum thing) and that's how I pretty much learned to play this game, but Cloud looks like he has a much bigger reliance on smashes than any other character that I use, so I'm not sure if I should use a different control scheme when I use him.

 

[CanadianMegaMan]

I would say cloud is more reliant on good aerial spacing, specials, and tilts, than this smash attacks. Not to say his smashes aren't good, I just don't think they're good enough to need to change your control settings, it would probably be best to just stick with what is most comfortable.

 

[Eureka]

(not sure if this was mentioned before or not, I skimmed through and didn't see much around what you can do after a side b) I was playing around with throw options in training when i noticed that you could do the normal d-throw into reverse side b at 0%, dash, regrab, down throw, reverse side b again, does around 50% depending on various things, so I went through the cast to see who this would work on...

I haven't been able to test it with someone else, but with turning on jump in training, (not really reliable, but its better than nothing when you are alone on 3ds) I was able to get it to work all the way through on Yoshi, Rosalina, Bowser jr, Samus, Ganonforf, Palutena, Charizard, Villager, Olimar, and Wii Fit Trainer.

Bowser, Shiek, Toon Link, Donkey Kong, Pit, Ike, King Dedede, Pikachu, Caption Falcon, Dark Pit, and Marth/Lucina can be hit by the second grab if they don't tech or spam jump.

This isn't guaranteed afaik since I haven't been able to test with an opponent DI'ing, or trying to jump out, but it would be something interesting to test, since it could mean a free 60%.

Nah down throw into side b is super not legit, even with no DI. With DI it's absolutely awful. Cloud really lacks any sort of guaranteed follow up off his throws.

Do you guys think that c-stick smashes are necessary for good Cloud play? Ever since Smash 4 came out I've been using stick tilts (because of that aerial momentum thing) and that's how I pretty much learned to play this game, but Cloud looks like he has a much bigger reliance on smashes than any other character that I use, so I'm not sure if I should use a different control scheme when I use him.

I don't think Cloud is reliant on his smashes at all. Up smash has a nice hitbox but it's a slow startup and does only 13%, so up air is usually a better anti air or juggle tool. F smash is pretty YOLO, and down smash is nice but not amazing. So I'd just stick with tilt stick.

 

[Izaw]

Cloud doesn't have any invisibility frames on his UP B's right ?

 

[Didier337]

Full Hop Late sour spot D-air to F-air/D-air/B-air/Finishing touch work at ~50% to ~75% on medium weights

 

[CanadianMegaMan]

Cloud doesn't have any invisibility frames on his UP B's right ?

He has invincibility frames on all of his limit break specials, except for finishing touch, but not on the regular versions.

 

[Izaw]

Is there some frame data you can show me on that please ?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

fastfall upair -> footstool -> ftilt reset -> fastfall upair -> LB Climhazzard WILL KILL if performed correctly at the edge (you will grab the edge) on characters with poor vertical recovery (eg. Ganondorf)

fastfall upair -> footstool -> ftilt reset -> fastfall upair -> foostool -> some any footstool followup ->

fastfall upair -> footstool -> ftilt reset -> FH dair -> any sofspot dair followup

fastfall upair -> footstool -> ftilt reset -> fastfall upair -> shorthop upair

fastfall upair -> footstool -> ftilt reset -> fastfall upair -> shorthop bair -> LB Climhazzard/cross slash (may be
airdodgeable, not to sure)

fastfall upair -> footstool -> ftilt reset -> fastfall upair -> cross slash/LB cross slash works on heavies

These only work on characters that can be jab ftilt resetted from 13% or higher (so no sheik )




footstools are op

 

[Tito Maas]

Is there some frame data you can show me on that please ?

http://smashboards.com/threads/clouds-frame-data-1-1-3.426026/

 

[Chiroz]

fastfall upair -> footstool -> ftilt reset -> fastfall upair -> LB Climhazzard WILL KILL if performed correctly at the edge (you will grab the edge) on characters with poor vertical recovery (eg. Ganondorf)

fastfall upair -> footstool -> ftilt reset -> fastfall upair -> foostool -> some any footstool followup ->

fastfall upair -> footstool -> ftilt reset -> FH dair -> any sofspot dair followup

fastfall upair -> footstool -> ftilt reset -> fastfall upair -> shorthop upair

fastfall upair -> footstool -> ftilt reset -> fastfall upair -> shorthop bair -> LB Climhazzard/cross slash (may be
airdodgeable, not to sure)

fastfall upair -> footstool -> ftilt reset -> fastfall upair -> cross slash/LB cross slash works on heavies

These only work on characters that can be jab ftilt resetted from 13% or higher (so no sheik )




footstools are op

If you get a footstool and a jab lock, how does the next U-Air pop the opponent outside the stage? Are they DIng a fully vertical knockback move towards the blastzone instead of the stage, why?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

If you get a footstool and a jab lock, how does the next U-Air pop the opponent outside the stage? Are they DIng a fully vertical knockback move towards the blastzone instead of the stage, why?

which of these are you talking about exactly?

 

[Chiroz]

which of these are you talking about exactly?

The first one you said spike and kill.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

The first one you said spike and kill.

Ahhhhhh alright yeah, you can actually change the direction slightly during the downward slash, sort of like DIing your own move if that makes any sense? You can do the same thing with moves like Kirby's up b or Ike's up b

 

[Gecko Moria]

So how should you go about landing late hit d-airs? It seems like your opponent can see this coming from a mile away.

 

[Eureka]

So how should you go about landing late hit d-airs? It seems like your opponent can see this coming from a mile away.

Oh yeah they can, but the point is that it's safe if done right. So you mix it up in neutral occasionally to try to catch them while they're open. For example, lets say you're playing against MK doing your regular neutral things. You can mix in full hop dair every once and a while, and if he happens to go for a dash attack or dash grab at that time you can get the late hit and follow up. If he doesn't do anything to get hit then there's no part lost on your end since he wasn't in a position to punish it.

They can see it from a mile away, but only if they're looking for it, which is why it's not something to relay on in neutral but something to use occasionally (unless you're trying to get cheesy and fish for late hit dair into Finishing Touch).

 

[TheGoodGuava]

So how should you go about landing late hit d-airs? It seems like your opponent can see this coming from a mile away.

Punishing their ledge getup and using it to approach work out most of the time unless the character has a good anti air

 

[Claire Redfield]

How do you combo jab into forward smash? All I ever end up doing is the remaining two hits of his combo.

One thing I keep finding success with is full jab combo into dash attack when they bounce. I haven't tested it against a human opponent much yet, but that'll change tonight.

 

[shadowdude]

One thing I keep finding success with is full jab combo into dash attack when they bounce. I haven't tested it against a human opponent much yet, but that'll change tonight.[/QUOTE]

We tech those

 

[Rocxidi]

How do you combo jab into forward smash? All I ever end up doing is the remaining two hits of his combo.

One thing I keep finding success with is full jab combo into dash attack when they bounce. I haven't tested it against a human opponent much yet, but that'll change tonight.

I took this into training mode, you have to look at Cloud's leg, as soon as it touches the ground, you can follow up with another move. I don't know if it true combos into Fsmash, but it looks it forces landing lag on the opponent so it might work.

Dash attacks work as follow ups if they miss their tech or they tech in place too early, allowing you to hit them just as they become tangible again.

 

[kendikong]

Any KO setups that work at high percents?

 

[Chiroz]

Any KO setups that work at high percents?

At kill %s:

Landing U-Air combos into a lot of stuff. Late hit D-Air also combos into a lot of stuff.

N-Air doesn't combo but if your opponent is slow you might be able to chase him for a Side-B or LB Neutral/Side/Down B.



Aside from that I just fish smashes or LBs. The good thing about kill % is that everytime you're hit or you hit the opponent you can charge half a LB.

Also I find Cloud really good at gimping and edge guarding. His N-Air and D-Air are just way too good.

 

[QTP2T]

Any KO setups that work at high percents?

There was one posted earlier, which was weak hit dair into to finishing touch (down b with limit break). Not sure if it's a rue combo, but it is a set up, and works at around 50% and above. It pops them up high enough for it to kill reliably. again, not sure if it's true, but that is something you can use.

 

[DLG Douch]

I'm new to the smash boards thing but I've been messing around with the FF U-air to Finish Touch stuff. Nothing has been fine tuned since I'm not very experienced with labbing. When I get the chance i'll see if my bud Absol can help me with the lab.
The first part was just a record of percents where they were easily in range with a normal FF uair (prob can vary quite a bit more than I found), and if anything is a repeat of something somewhere else and I haven't seen it, I'm sorry. This was also with 0% rage.

Shiek - 45-55% (true combo 65%-75% weak)
Ryu - mid 50-60% (can true combo at 56%)
Yoshi = 35-55%
Captain Falcon - 45-65% strong/ (true combo at 45% strong/65%-95% weak)

 

[Gecko Moria]

There was one posted earlier, which was weak hit dair into to finishing touch (down b with limit break). Not sure if it's a true combo

Oh It's definitely true at certain percent ranges (got it to true combo on lucina from 50%-80% without rage) and even if you get a weak hit dair at higher percents you can try to read an air dodge or just go for it and it will usually still work.

 

[Claire Redfield]

Also I find Cloud really good at gimping and edge guarding. His N-Air and D-Air are just way too good.

This is my experience, as well. I played my friend Erik for hours and I played Cloud for most of that time. He tried him a few times (also being a big Final Fantasy fan), but struggled adjusting to Cloud's mediocre recovery (without Limit Break). I'd been quite used to it by that point so I was much more comfortable in edge-fighting. And Erik, by the end of some of those matches, saltily proclaimed Cloud the best gimper in the game. He did seem, over the course of several hours, to be very good at the gimping and edge-guarding. N-air, D-air, and F-air work wonders, and a couple of times I got the "ledge trump into D-air spike" combo. I need to work on that one more.

 

[Claire Redfield]

Do you guys think that c-stick smashes are necessary for good Cloud play? Ever since Smash 4 came out I've been using stick tilts (because of that aerial momentum thing) and that's how I pretty much learned to play this game, but Cloud looks like he has a much bigger reliance on smashes than any other character that I use, so I'm not sure if I should use a different control scheme when I use him.

I've been trying to use C-stick for smash attacks now, but I don't use it for aerials. I tried it, because of advice in another thread, and it just doesn't feel comfortable or natural to me. And certain characters, like Mega Man, seem to lose all aerial momentum when you use C-stick for aerials. But I'm used to that momentum, and prefer doing it manually. It just didn't seem like I was gaining any accuracy or proficiency, so unless there's a good reason otherwise, I am going to stick with C-stick for smash attacks only.

 

[Chiroz]

Do you guys think that c-stick smashes are necessary for good Cloud play? Ever since Smash 4 came out I've been using stick tilts (because of that aerial momentum thing) and that's how I pretty much learned to play this game, but Cloud looks like he has a much bigger reliance on smashes than any other character that I use, so I'm not sure if I should use a different control scheme when I use him.

You should probably set your stick to tilts. Cloud doesn't rely on smashes at all and he has no tech which requires you to smash that cannot be achieved in another, even easier, method.

PP Tilts is almost impossible without C-Stick set to tilts. ILBC tilts is impossible to do frame perfect unless you have the stick set to tilts, while on the other hand there are plenty of easy ways to do dash Smashes (better than PP Smashes) and ILBC smashes without setting your stick to Smash.

The only thing I could see you losing is PP D-Smash, but that can still be done without the C-Stick on Smash and honesltly it's not something that's done very often.

There's also the added bonus of having more air control when performing aerials, which is required but the C-Stick isn't needed for that. It just makes it more precise and much easier.

 

[Eureka]

You should probably set your stick to tilts. Cloud doesn't rely on smashes at all and he has no tech which requires you to smash that cannot be achieved in another, even easier, method.

PP Tilts is almost impossible without C-Stick set to tilts. ILBC tilts is impossible to do frame perfect unless you have the stick set to tilts, while on the other hand there are plenty of easy ways to do dash Smashes (better than PP Smashes) and ILBC smashes without setting your stick to Smash.

The only thing I could see you losing is PP D-Smash, but that can still be done without the C-Stick on Smash and honesltly it's not something that's done very often.

There's also the added bonus of having more air control when performing aerials, which is required but the C-Stick isn't needed for that. It just makes it more precise and much easier.

To add to this, c stick on tilts lets you buffer up airs, which is absolutely godlike for juggling people as Cloud.

 

[SkippyJ]

Idk if everybody here already knows this, but ive seen a lot of misinformation being spread on the subject, so here goes:

Clouds up B CAN snap to the ledge on its way down! You just have to make sure that at its peak the upB goes a fair distance above the ledge (a general rule of thumb for me is, if my head is below the ledge, im too low, and I should just drift down and do a normal upB).

This is useful for a few reasons:
1. A recovery mixup uption (you are recovering high and they think you are just going to land on stage or drift to the ledge, instead you up B up and then back down to the ledge. This is safe on shield, can make them wiff any potential punishes, and you might even catch them.)

2. Edge guarding/ offensive tool. (Your opponent is just a bit out over the ledge, you up B off stage facing the ledge, you catch them either on your way up or down, which causes them to get spiked straight down while you snap to the ledge, safe and sound. Great offensive recovery option and edge guard mixup that can snag some super early kills)

Hope this helps