"Avalanche": Cloud combo, moveset, and tech sharing thread

[Tri Knight]

Cloud's Fair spike sweet spot?

Seems to be at the top half of the blade. When the opponent is at a much higher altitude it doesn't spike though.

Hitting near the hilt will send the opponent horizontally.

 

[Skitrel]

Cloud has the same technique with his Finisher Limit Break that Jigglypuff players use with Rest in edgeguard situations.

Stand at edge, when opponent uses rollon quickly follow their roll with your own roll, then use finisher. This is guaranteed thanks to Cloud's quick roll.

It also appears to be possible to space this so that it can be used on opponents that use anything other than jump to get up. This seems to be dependent on the speed of various getups and how large their roll to get on stage is though.

Personally I'm not a fan of trying to space it right now, with practice that might improve. I prefer to stand directly at the edge and try to get them with DSmash, connecting with this pulls them towards the stage for a stage spike and always kills. In my experience people tend to try to roll behind when you're pressuring them at the edge like this, especially after they've failed a getup attack on you once or twice because you can easily shield it.

 

[Kalierdarke]

I didn't see it mentioned here so I'll post it here as well so all the info is in one spot.

 

[Lochy]

Seems to be at the top half of the blade. When the opponent is at a much higher altitude it doesn't spike though.

Hitting near the hilt will send the opponent horizontally.

I heard that it was actually the center of the blade. But i may be wrong.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Dunno if this has already been discovered, but Cloud can ledge-snap with his up-B if he uses it a short distance from the edge and level with it (rather than below).

Which is weird.

 

[SPAZ494]

I just had a thought but am away from the game right now. Would doing a reverse neutral b help Cloud's horizontal recover at all?

 

[Jeronado]

I was able to land U-tilt --> Turnaround Up-b on Mario from 41% to 61%. With the back hit of U-tilt I was able to get it to work up until 67%.

I'm not sure how legitimate it is, but it registers as a combo in training mode. I think they might be able to Air dodge but if they do you can probably hit them with the downward slash of Up-b. I attempted to tested a bit for DI and it seems like DI-ing behind Cloud was best otherwise I would get it to work up until about 73%. Also if they DI in front of Cloud then you don't need to turnaround the Up-b.

 

[Babyface]

Dunno if this has already been discovered, but Cloud can ledge-snap with his up-B if he uses it a short distance from the edge and level with it (rather than below).

Which is weird.

You can Ledge Trump by falling off the stage and quickly pressing Up+B. It's easier than circling the thumb-stick down and back, IMO.

 

[Saru]

* Bair has increased landing lag when limit is fully charged.
* U-Air has lag once it connects

 

[Bricky]

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet since it seems kind of obvious, but short hop autocanceled Nair into limit break side B is a true combo which kills near the edge at about 60%.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Has anyone labbed precisely what Cloud's passive Limit Break buffs do?

 

[LochTessMonster]

I've been messing around a bit lately and i've discovered cloud's uptilt can combo into finishing touch pretty effectively.
Definately not a true combo, however it can be an effective mixup, and because of clouds awesome foxtrotting game you can land uptilts pretty easily.

 

[Chiroz]

Has anyone labbed precisely what Cloud's passive Limit Break buffs do?

Pretty sure it buffs Cloud's run speed, aerial speed and fall speed. Also pretty sure it does not buff weight.


I was able to survice 5% longer from vertical knockback but died at the exact same % from horizontal knockback, so that would mean a fall speed buff but no weight buff.

Which would explain this:

* Bair has increased landing lag when limit is fully charged.
* U-Air has lag once it connects

Since you fall faster you don't fall on the auto cancel frames and thus get more lag.



Run Speed and Aerial Speed are noticeable by just playing Cloud.

I also did a side by side comparison just to be sure.



I don't know if he gets anything else such as acceleration/aerial acceleration or better frame data. Someone else more adept at doing this could please check it out.



Edit: Jump speed and jump height for both first and double jump remain exactly the same.

Frame data, as far as grounded attacks go, stays exactly the same




Also I am pretty sure the spike has to do with the timing you hit the opponent, not the location. The last portion of the attack when the blade is moving towards downwards in a diagonal angle towards Cloud, that's what spikes I believe.

I also tested against a PC with jump on. Same distance from the CPU, same %. Only thing that mattered was how high the CPU was (first time above me, second in front, 3rd very slightly below). Only 3rd spiked.

 

[Chiroz]

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet since it seems kind of obvious, but short hop autocanceled Nair into limit break side B is a true combo which kills near the edge at about 60%.

N-Air knocks them too far away, how are you doing this?

 

[Snasen]

pretty cool LB setups.

I found similar things. Im on vacation in spain so cant upload stuff (3ds), but on the plane here I found that from 10-20 % depending on character with limit break (due to aerial mobility) you do fh dair sourspot -> dash forward -> jump backwards bair -> footstool -> Sourspot dair (need lagless landing) -> double hop fair -> timed fastfall into down b. If they tech in place on the fair you can maybe do ff uair into down b.

Following di after footstool is not that hard on most characters with clouds aerial mobility during limit break.

Without limitbreak you can do fh dair Sourspot (ff when sword stops glowing) -> dash forward -> jump back with sh bair -> reverse nair ff (?) -> turn around dtilt -> uair around same percent as previous combo.

At higher percent switch out sh bair with fh bair into Ff double jump nair/forward b/bair/uair or something.

 

[EmperorDeDeDe]

Not sure if this is where I should post this but his up b puts him on the top platform of battlefield.

 

[Chiroz]

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet since it seems kind of obvious, but short hop autocanceled Nair into limit break side B is a true combo which kills near the edge at about 60%.

I don't think this is a true combo but it definitely is worth looking into as an extremely safe and reliable tech chase.

I tested against a Sheik in 1/4th speed everywhere from 50-90%. If Cloud dashes after Sheik, Sheik barely has time to perform N-Air or F-Air but if you space the Side-B correctly then she should not be able to hit you with them.

Which only leaves Sheik with the option to dodge or jump, but since Sheik is so close to the ground and Cross Slash lasts so long if she air dodges she will still get hit when she lands, so her only option is to double jump away. You can then bait the double jumps by just dashing as Sheik after any N-Air when you have LB.

Or even jump Aerial or Side-B for the read.



This also works with Up-B and Neutral B (no need to dash on Neutral B) in the same way. Below 50% Sheik will probably land and tech or shield. Above 90% Sheik escapes easily.



I need to test if this can be done without the speed boost from LB.


Edit: Seem to be about same result without LB. Cloud reaches Sheik just as she is colliding with the floor which means she can either fast fall and tech or double jump. Aerials or Air Dodges won't work which mean if Cloud spaces himself correctly which means chasing after an N-Air is actually a very safe option.

Obviously the %s at which this works will vary depending on who you're fighting and some chars will legitimately have no option against this and this becomes a combo on them. There might even be some chars that are comboed into this at kill %. Needs a lot of labbing.



Edit 2: DI might completely **** everything up as I wasn't taking it into account. Will lab tomorrow.

 

[shamSmash]

Found a few things playing Cloud with a buddy:

The first is tips about climhazzard. It's probably been pointed at already, but you can still grab the ledge on the 2nd part of the move. Not sure of frame data for it, but he can grab the ledge once he has fully turned around and is on the vertical part of the motion. Anytime following this he can grab. This is useful for recoveries and deny ledge guards. Two examples: 1) recovering from high, the 2nd part can be used as a mixup to air dodges, etc. and can even deal some damage. 2) recovering from below in a position where the first part of the jump will take you partially above the stage for falling into the ledge. If you are taken far enough above the ledge, the end part can be used to hit your opponent and prevent them from attacking you (for example, prevent a cloud fsmash).

The second one is much cooler imo. The initial motion of dsmash can be used to spike. I dont have video unfortunately, nut heres the scenario: in a cloud ditto, I was recovering from below and had begin an upB. My buddy was standing just off the ledge. With a well-timed dmash, he stage spiked me. The initial motion went out past the ledge and hit me. As usual, if pulled me in towards the second part. I hit the stage and bounced off. Obviously can be teched, but given how quickly clouds dsmash comes out its pretty strict timing.

 

[Iron Maw]

This is amazing! I definitely want to try pulling it off at one point.

https://twitter.com/6WXWes/status/677129741669806080

 

[Iron Maw]

@NinjaLink has seriously nice indepth Cloud overview guide. Worth checking out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6gyFbEUUVA&feature=youtu.be&t=1958

 

[Deezxnutz]

I find LB Side B to be really safe when you space it. Cloud recovers really fast afterwards and so far I've always caught my opponent attempting to punish it. I usually follow up with Dtilt.

https://twitter.com/DeezxNutzzz/status/677449227174154240

 

[Tri Knight]

I heard that it was actually the center of the blade. But i may be wrong.

No you actually might be right on this one. It would explain why opponents don't get spiked when above you.

So little update on Braver. Recovering high is definitely extremely safe. You can also spike opponents who are also off stage trying to edge guard you while safely grabbing the ledge. I've done it 3 times so far, and very easily too. Maybe baiting people into edge guarding high is a good idea.

Also, Climhazzarding at the same level as the ledge will always allow Braver to ledge snap.

 

[Skitrel]

Edit: Jump speed and jump height for both first and double jump remain exactly the same.

Not true. Side by side comparison shows a small difference.

Use a platform to compare, jump with two characters and compare how much of their models pass through the platform compared to one another.

 

[Kulty]

I can confirm that his Bair can jab lock at very low percents (from 0-12%). After 12%, the jab lock no longer works. I tested it on Donkey Kong in training mode when I was trying what down-tilt could do as potential followup, but after I performed Bair when DK didn't tech it, he got locked. I don't know a potential setup that can lead into a Bair lock, since opponents can still tech the down-tilt or even jump out of it.

 

[Kulty]

Sorry for the double post.

 

[Chiroz]

Not true. Side by side comparison shows a small difference.

Use a platform to compare, jump with two characters and compare how much of their models pass through the platform compared to one another.

The small difference is the fall speed. Look closely and you'll see the non LB Cloud is the one that jumps very slightly higher. Technically it's the same jump height, only he falls faster.




Edit: I guess I worded my post wrong. I meant to say this: LB does not change Cloud's jump speed in any way, Cloud's jump height is slightly changed by the increased fall speed from LB

 

[TheGoodGuava]

at 20% I got a shield break on a level 9 DK and was able to do a FF backwards up air>short hop backair>jump dair spike to death

Level nines are usually frame perfect with shields and air dodges so I'm not sure if this is true or not\

Also, a limit break cross slash is enough shield pressure to break after a charged fsmash apparently

 

[Chiroz]

at 20% I got a shield break on a level 9 DK and was able to do a FF backwards up air>short hop backair>jump dair spike to death

Level nines are usually frame perfect with shields and air dodges so I'm not sure if this is true or not\

Also, a limit break cross slash is enough shield pressure to break after a charged fsmash apparently

Going to lab that combo today. U-Air to B-Air is a true combo against certain chard at specific %s (depends on who you are doing the combo on) but didn't know B-Air could combo into D-Air. Did the PC DI towards you by any chance?



Also LB Cross Slash does 29% damage and last about 5%. That's about 34% damage on a shield, basically anything that does around 6%+ damage (which is everything on Cloud) will break the shield.



It's going to be viable strategy to do 2 jabs-> Limit Break Cross Slash or any aerial -> Limit Break Cross Slash. If your opponent doesn't let go of the shield at any moment it will break for sure.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Going to lab that combo today. U-Air to B-Air is a true combo against certain chard at specific %s (depends on who you are doing the combo on) but didn't know B-Air could combo into D-Air. Did the PC DI towards you by any chance?



Also LB Cross Slash does 29% damage and last about 5%. That's about 34% damage on a shield, basically anything that does around 6%+ damage (which is everything on Cloud) will break the shield.



It's going to be viable strategy to do 2 jabs-> Limit Break Cross Slash or any aerial -> Limit Break Cross Slash. If your opponent doesn't let go of the shield at any moment it will break for sure.

I'm not entirely sure, most PCs DI towards center stage but DK is also a large character model so that could also be the case

Either way, if cloud has a spike confirm from a fast fall up air then this changes a lot

 

[Syde7]

Would be suuuuper amazing if the OP could like, organize some of this stuff & have other people confirm whether stuff is legit.

Either way, nice stuff & nice finds.

 

[Bonk!]

Hi. I don't plan on picking up Cloud, but I think he's really fun so I put a little sumthin sumthin together for y'all. If you like it, please consider subscribing!!!!!!!!!1!!!!!!!!!!!11111!!!!11

 

[kyoskue]

Pretty sure it buffs Cloud's run speed, aerial speed and fall speed. Also pretty sure it does not buff weight.
Since you fall faster you don't fall on the auto cancel frames and thus get more lag.

I can confirm this.
Limit Break|Cloud seems to have the same ground and air speed as Roy when normally he's a tad slower. Other than the obvious addition of becoming a fast faller I don't see any other differences.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I can confirm this.
Limit Break|Cloud seems to have the same ground and air speed as Roy when normally he's a tad slower. Other than the obvious addition of becoming a fast faller I don't see any other differences.

Roy is the 10th fastest with a dash speed of 1.95, Cloud's dash speed was 2 last time I checked, tying him with Charizard for 8/9th. With limit breaker he outpaces zss at almost the same speed as Fox (needs further testing)

 

[Zoa]

Looks like Cloud's fair gains the spike hitbox during the latter half of the attack. It is the upper portion of the blade. If anyone wants a visual then it appears to gain the spike hitbox as Cloud is nearing the end of the swing as the blade starts to go beneath his chest. Can anyone else confirm?

Edit: Looks like the whole blade gains the spike hitbox. Little Mac can be right next to Cloud's legs while under him and still get spiked.

 

[Chiroz]

Looks like Cloud's fair gains the spike hitbox during the latter half of the attack. It is the upper portion of the blade. If anyone wants a visual then it appears to gain the spike hitbox as Cloud is nearing the end of the swing as the blade starts to go beneath his chest. Can anyone else confirm?

This is what my own testing also concluded.

 

[shadowdude]

So I was labbing with LB's on Mario FD and I discovered that the canceled late hit of d-air true combos into up-special-LB(you need to jump into it)too K.O. from 120%-170% Also it works for 20% as a true combo from 20%-120% But doesn't K.O.

Also you can hit with the late auto-cancelled hit of d-air into d-special-LB to K.O. at 50%-90% with no DI or rage. Take note that at later percents you have to be dashing then do the down-air for it to work

I think this is really important to note as a kill option

 

[Rocxidi]

Can anyone check if Side B 2 into Down Smash is a true combo?

 

[shadowdude]

Can anyone check if Side B 2 into Down Smash is a true combo?

No it doesn't

 

[Chiroz]

So I was labbing with LB's on Mario FD and I discovered that the canceled late hit of d-air true combos into up-special-LB(you need to jump into it)too K.O. from 120%-170% Also it works for 20% as a true combo from 20%-120% But doesn't K.O.

Also you can hit with the late auto-cancelled hit of d-air into d-special-LB to K.O. at 50%-90% with no DI or rage. Take note that at later percents you have to be dashing then do the down-air for it to work

I think this is really important to note as a kill option

It also true combos out of FF U-Air or any U-Air until kill %s but just barely. It stops true comboing right afterwards.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Clouds normal Side B one jab locks opponents, it seems to be at a decently good percent too, around 60-70. Maybe you can d-throw opponent forcing hard tech on platform -> side b one jablock -> whatever

Nair to LB Side B is a confirm, I'm not sure if this was mentioned yet.