Automatic L-Cancelling Discussion

[4tlas]

Very True. I guess I'm just so used to using dins if I ever try just straight up running in and LKing.

Run in -> rising lightning kick usually works well when you've place a Din behind your opponent, since they know they can't retreat sans rolling. That usually makes them drop shield so they don't just get grabbed, and a spaced LK should be better than shield drop -> whatever. Even if they do trade, you got a LK. If they hit you first somehow, they were probably playing Marth (that grab range gives many Zeldas nightmares)

 

[noboruplaysgames]

I think that it will cause a problem in tournaments because whether L canceling is holding you back from preforming at a top level or it is just second nature, it is a part of the game that adds more depth and skill into completly mastering the game. By using auto l canceling, you are shortening the gap between players who really practiced in order to succeede and those who can now preform at a closer level without any work. Now for players who are just starting out while not in a tournament scene. It can be handy to have on while practicing other fundamentals such as wave dashing, short hopping, ect so that they can focus on those while not having to worry about l canceling. They can then later turn it off and practice l canceling itself. But in a tournament scene I reccomend against allowing it. It does remove an element of depth and skill as well as make the hours of practice put in by many top players wasted. Now there probably will be certain tournaments where it is allowed anyways. It can't be helped because not everyone can agree. It is very similar to the argument going in the smash 4 community about customs. While the decision to not allow it is quite different in each case, the splitting of the community caused by disagreements like these are similar. If a large tournament is held where players from both opposing sides attend, auto l canceling should not be allowed. Anything in higher importance than a local tournament should not allow auto l canceling. Think of auto l canceling as a crutch while practicing. A bit silly but true analogy I came up with puts auto l canceling into a simple perspective. If professional bicyclists were suddenly allowed to use training wheels, all of a sudden all that practice of turning, balance, ect automatically becomes a waste. Training wheels are a crutch used to first learn how to ride a bike and then once learned, they are removed. While auto l canceling may help newer players compete at a higher level, it is the same as if you were to turn on timed mode, or any other sort of rule. It should be regarded as a feature to use at your own leisure on your own time. Use it to practice fundamentals and then move past it and then become a better player. Not only will learning l canceling normally be fair to the players who already learned it and keep the skill level required from dropping, but it also provides greater satisfaction from learning how to do it the normal way and in the end, it will not hurt the project m community. Because in the grand scheme of things we all share a love for the beautiful game and community that we are all apart of. We all want what's best for the community whether you support auto l canceling or not. I hope you all can see what I am getting at with my oppinion.

 

[Narpas_sword]

it is a part of the game that adds more depth and skill into completly mastering the game.

How does it add more Depth and Skill?

 

[noboruplaysgames]

How does it add more Depth and Skill?

In a game depth refers to how much is possible and how much can the game bring. Having l canceling as something you have to learn adds one more aspect to what the game has to offer. As for skill, skill in smash can be determined by many things. One of those things is your proficiency at tech skill. Therefore learning to l cancel properly advances your skill as a player

 

[Narpas_sword]

However, L canceling adds no options, so, how can it add depth?

all it adds is an extra button.

 

[noboruplaysgames]

However, L canceling adds no options, so, how can it add depth?

all it adds is an extra button.

Exactly, the key word there is "add". Not only does it add depth for playing the game but it makes the game a deeper game as a whole.

 

[Bleck]

okay so clearly you haven't read the thread or the myriad of different ways that people have explained that "having to push more buttons" is not what "depth" means

I'm not surprised that people in favor of l-canceling are repeatedly so narcissistic that they assume that the discussion hasn't actually started until they start talking

 

[4tlas]

So it makes the game harder to execute, which is arbitrary depth. Like discus throwing is legit thing, and there's difficulty in spinning around properly to see how far you can throw it. That's part of the sport's depth. But is javelin toss any less deep because you just throw the damn thing? No, and I think if you tried to add spinning to the start of a javelin toss people would riot.

At its core, a game is about decision-making. L-cancelling is an execution barrier, which I understand many fighting game players enjoy. Getting good at that execution is often regarded as a "critical skill". But Smash is ALREADY a fighting game about simplistic inputs and fundamentals and less about crazy combos, frame-perfect inputs, and complicated movesets. Why try to implement faux complexity via L-cancelling? If you want lots of complicated execution barriers, why not do as has been suggested multiple times in this thread and add L-cancelling to specials, throws, getups, and everything else? In fact, in lieu of L-cancelling, why don't we just make every attack have a complicated button combo by default?

No, complicated button inputs are not a core part of Smash. They are arbitrary, and while some people enjoy that physical challenge, there is already plenty of that in the advanced tech like DACUS, shield dropping, and whatever other stuff you do. Just get rid of the damn L-cancelling. There's no decision-making, its not even that difficult or makes a huge difference when you do it most of the time. Its an artifact in the code at this point.

 

[hype machine]

This is coming from someone who ussally gets 90-100% l cancel rates on every match.(yes I look at my l cancel percentage at the end of every match).

L canceling is a bad mechanic and heres why

1. All its doing is turning people away from the game, people who can't learn to l cancel will give up on playing the game, giving you less players to play with. Why would you want less players?

2. L canceling increases the chances of causing arthritus. RIP mew2king

3. Honestly the game isn't fun if your l canceling isn't on point. Some days your l cancel rate will be acceptable other days it's bad enough to make you take a break from the game for a few weeks.

4. If you're going to play project m at a local tournoment, chances are everyone is going to be able to l cancel anyways.

Im pretty sure I had more reasons on why I hate l canceling, but I'm too tired to think

 

[noboruplaysgames]

To hype and atlas, you guys aren't looking at l canceling for what it is. I don't think you realize how much l canceling affects competitive smash. Most of the main tech aren't even 100% necessary for every character. For example how often will a wavedash save you as bowser or Zelda? L canceling is a technique that is absolutely essential to competitive smash. That's like saying get rid of three pointers in basketball because they are too hard to make. Of course they won't get rid of it because it's a key part to basketball. The same can be said for l canceling in competitive smash. The pros will be pros because they put hard work into becoming the best. Saying l canceling turns people away is the same as the three pointer analogy again. If people aren't willing to put in the work then they aren't cut out to be top players. And using health as an argument is 100% invalid. People can litterally DIE in sports like football and wrestling and people still do it. The players who understand the risks will take it and others will not. You guys are talking from a casual point of view. If you read my original post I stated that locals can have the decision to have it on or off but anything larger should have it off. Because news flash, we aren't playing casual smash. We are in a tournament scene competing to be the best. This is certainly true for project m of all the smashes which was designed specifically for bringing back competitive smash. If you don't like it play brawl or smash 4. If you are going to play like a casual, then you can't be the best. I know it's harsh but it's the truth. It's a tournament where top level players are playing. If top level players relied on crutches then nobody in the top level would still be there. Top level players have the skill to claim their positions and complaining that it's hard is a mentality that won't get you anywhere no matter what you do in life

 

[Rawkobo]

To hype and atlas, you guys aren't looking at l canceling for what it is. I don't think you realize how much l canceling affects competitive smash. Most of the main tech aren't even 100% necessary for every character. For example how often will a wavedash save you as bowser or Zelda? L canceling is a technique that is absolutely essential to competitive smash. That's like saying get rid of three pointers in basketball because they are too hard to make. Of course they won't get rid of it because it's a key part to basketball. The same can be said for l canceling in competitive smash. The pros will be pros because they put hard work into becoming the best. Saying l canceling turns people away is the same as the three pointer analogy again. If people aren't willing to put in the work then they aren't cut out to be top players. And using health as an argument is 100% invalid. People can litterally DIE in sports like football and wrestling and people still do it. The players who understand the risks will take it and others will not. You guys are talking from a casual point of view. If you read my original post I stated that locals can have the decision to have it on or off but anything larger should have it off. Because news flash, we aren't playing casual smash. We are in a tournament scene competing to be the best. This is certainly true for project m of all the smashes which was designed specifically for bringing back competitive smash. If you don't like it play brawl or smash 4. If you are going to play like a casual, then you can't be the best. I know it's harsh but it's the truth. It's a tournament where top level players are playing. If top level players relied on crutches then nobody in the top level would still be there. Top level players have the skill to claim their positions and complaining that it's hard is a mentality that won't get you anywhere no matter what you do in life

Or you could bother to read the rest of the thread and realize how most of what you just said is either subjective or highly misunderstood.

We're not talking from a "casual" point of view, we're talking from a game design point of view. Fighting games are fundamentally driven at the top level and L-cancelling is not a fundamental by any means of the imagination.

 

[noboruplaysgames]

Or you could bother to read the rest of the thread and realize how most of what you just said is either subjective or highly misunderstood.

We're not talking from a "casual" point of view, we're talking from a game design point of view. Fighting games are fundamentally driven at the top level and L-cancelling is not a fundamental by any means of the imagination.

Lol it actually is a major fundamental of competitive smash. Sorry to sound repetitive but again thats a casual point of view. Let's say you are speedrunning a game. Of course it has its normal fundamentals, but there are tons of things concidered fundamentals that aren't when in a casual scene. We are discussing high level smash play and no other tech can be concidered as much a fundamental besides short hopping.

 

[Rawkobo]

Lol it actually is a major fundamental of competitive smash. Sorry to sound repetitive but again thats a casual point of view. Let's say you are speedrunning a game. Of course it has its normal fundamentals, but there are tons of things concidered fundamentals that aren't when in a casual scene. We are discussing high level smash play and no other tech can be concidered as much a fundamental besides short hopping.

It's not a fundamental of competitive Smash. "That's a casual point of view" is also not an argument as to why it could possibly be a fundamental.

 

[noboruplaysgames]

It's not a fundamental of competitive Smash. "That's a casual point of view" is also not an argument as to why it could possibly be a fundamental.

Are you aware of the definition of fundamental? "forming a necessary base or core; of central importance." As previously argued, people said their casual friends cannot preform as highly due to not knowing l canceling. If we are looking straight at competitive smash, what are the main things you need to know in terms of tech? Wavedashing, short hopping, and l canceling are very common answers. The base of competitive smash revolves around tech and matchup/stage knowledge. If you remove those aspects it is no longer competitive and is casual. If tech, stage, and character knowledge was removed, anyone could be concidered the best. It then comes down to almost dumb luck. Competitive smash is critically impacted by tech and if you can't see one of the most nesessary techniques to become a top player as a fundamental, then clearly you don't understand what a fundamental is.

 

[4tlas]

To hype and atlas, you guys aren't looking at l canceling for what it is. I don't think you realize how much l canceling affects competitive smash. Most of the main tech aren't even 100% necessary for every character. For example how often will a wavedash save you as bowser or Zelda? L canceling is a technique that is absolutely essential to competitive smash. That's like saying get rid of three pointers in basketball because they are too hard to make. Of course they won't get rid of it because it's a key part to basketball. The same can be said for l canceling in competitive smash. The pros will be pros because they put hard work into becoming the best. Saying l canceling turns people away is the same as the three pointer analogy again. If people aren't willing to put in the work then they aren't cut out to be top players. And using health as an argument is 100% invalid. People can litterally DIE in sports like football and wrestling and people still do it. The players who understand the risks will take it and others will not. You guys are talking from a casual point of view. If you read my original post I stated that locals can have the decision to have it on or off but anything larger should have it off. Because news flash, we aren't playing casual smash. We are in a tournament scene competing to be the best. This is certainly true for project m of all the smashes which was designed specifically for bringing back competitive smash. If you don't like it play brawl or smash 4. If you are going to play like a casual, then you can't be the best. I know it's harsh but it's the truth. It's a tournament where top level players are playing. If top level players relied on crutches then nobody in the top level would still be there. Top level players have the skill to claim their positions and complaining that it's hard is a mentality that won't get you anywhere no matter what you do in life

I think you don't realize how much it wouldn't matter if it were never there. I don't wavedash or L-cancel, and I am still playing the same game. And I play it competitively. Fundamentals are the parts that you make choices around, like moving, attacking, and blocking. So no, L-cancelling is not a fundamental, its a button input.

So a few really important things I'd like to mention.
1) For the love of Sakurai please format your posts.
2) For the love of Miyamoto please actually read our arguments. NOBODY said it was "too hard". What people are saying is that it is unnecessary. Overkill. Extraneous.
3) Your own argument can be used in favor of removing L-cancelling. Here are your arguments:
a) Competition is about being the best. The pros will put in the effort required to be the best, whether or not that includes L-cancelling
b) Noobs might win if they don't have to L-cancel. If that makes the difference between a new player and a pro, perhaps the new player has actually put in more "effort" than the pro by learning to do everything NOT L-cancelling better.
c) Casuals won't want to play competitively anyway. Not wanting to L-cancel is only casual because you say it is. The only difference between you and this casual is that you think they aren't playing the same game as you because you want to press an extra button. Many players may want to compete but don't like that attitude you have, and getting rid of this line you've made will only add more players to the community and won't hurt anyone that L-cancels (except you won't be "better" than "some noob" as if L-cancelling makes you not a noob).
d) L-cancelling is a fundamental. Well no it isn't, but sure let's say for a moment it is. Is it an interesting one? Does it prove who the better player is? If everyone played the game without it, would the game change? No, no, and no. There are no decisions to be made, it doesn't mean jack for determining who the better player is, and if we just halved landing lag across the board we'd have the same game without the button (and if we didn't we'd have a slightly slower game without the button). Nobody is saying to make the game slower or less interesting, but L-cancelling is simply unnecessary. It means nothing. Ergo, not fundamental.

Also for the record, when most Smashers say that the fundamentals are wavedashing, L-cancelling, and short hopping, they are being stupid. That's called basic tech. Fundamentals are at an even more core level of gameplay, which is about the raw decision-making that goes into playing the game. In other words, choosing to move, attack, or block. Understanding how those options (and combinations of them and some extras like grab) interact in a RPS scenario is fundamental.

 

[Rawkobo]

Are you aware of the definition of fundamental? "forming a necessary base or core; of central importance." As previously argued, people said their casual friends cannot preform as highly due to not knowing l canceling. If we are looking straight at competitive smash, what are the main things you need to know in terms of tech? Wavedashing, short hopping, and l canceling are very common answers. The base of competitive smash revolves around tech and matchup/stage knowledge. If you remove those aspects it is no longer competitive and is casual. If tech, stage, and character knowledge was removed, anyone could be concidered the best. It then comes down to almost dumb luck. Competitive smash is critically impacted by tech and if you can't see one of the most nesessary techniques to become a top player as a fundamental, then clearly you don't understand what a fundamental is.

The definition of casual, from dictionary.com, is listed as "seeming or tending to be indifferent to what is happening; apathetic; unconcerned." If you haven't picked up on it by now, this isn't a casual opinion if multiple people are arguing for it.

If you read previous pages at all, which again does not seem to be the case, you would understand that top level Smash is significantly mentality-based. You can be the most technical player in the world on Fox and still get heavily outplayed by Marth. Tech is significant to the game, but it's neither the only significant thing, nor the most out of everything.

 

[noboruplaysgames]

I think you don't realize how much it wouldn't matter if it were never there. I don't wavedash or L-cancel, and I am still playing the same game. And I play it competitively. Fundamentals are the parts that you make choices around, like moving, attacking, and blocking. So no, L-cancelling is not a fundamental, its a button input.

So a few really important things I'd like to mention.
1) For the love of Sakurai please format your posts.
2) For the love of Miyamoto please actually read our arguments. NOBODY said it was "too hard". What people are saying is that it is unnecessary. Overkill. Extraneous.
3) Your own argument can be used in favor of removing L-cancelling. Here are your arguments:
a) Competition is about being the best. The pros will put in the effort required to be the best, whether or not that includes L-cancelling
b) Noobs might win if they don't have to L-cancel. If that makes the difference between a new player and a pro, perhaps the new player has actually put in more "effort" than the pro by learning to do everything NOT L-cancelling better.
c) Casuals won't want to play competitively anyway. Not wanting to L-cancel is only casual because you say it is. The only difference between you and this casual is that you think they aren't playing the same game as you because you want to press an extra button. Many players may want to compete but don't like that attitude you have, and getting rid of this line you've made will only add more players to the community and won't hurt anyone that L-cancels (except you won't be "better" than "some noob" as if L-cancelling makes you not a noob).
d) L-cancelling is a fundamental. Well no it isn't, but sure let's say for a moment it is. Is it an interesting one? Does it prove who the better player is? If everyone played the game without it, would the game change? No, no, and no. There are no decisions to be made, it doesn't mean jack for determining who the better player is, and if we just halved landing lag across the board we'd have the same game without the button (and if we didn't we'd have a slightly slower game without the button). Nobody is saying to make the game slower or less interesting, but L-cancelling is simply unnecessary. It means nothing. Ergo, not fundamental.

Also for the record, when most Smashers say that the fundamentals are wavedashing, L-cancelling, and short hopping, they are being stupid. That's called basic tech. Fundamentals are at an even more core level of gameplay, which is about the raw decision-making that goes into playing the game. In other words, choosing to move, attack, or block. Understanding how those options (and combinations of them and some extras like grab) interact in a RPS scenario is fundamental.

Again, I'm talking about COMPETITIVE smash. That means that nothing about the games core mechanics are being discussed. When looking solely at the competitive aspect, it is clearly a fundamental. You hear the pros say it all the time. "You gotta practice your fundamentals" I am about 100% sure they aren't talking about pressing A to attack. And yes, l canceling does in fact make the player more skilled. Skill is determined on how the player can preform with the tools they are given. Going against that by using a crutch like auto l cancel is taking the easy, non skilled way out. Saying that it is a useless button is entirely unrelevant as well. This is an argument about whether or not it should be used in tournament not whether it should be used in your living room. I am not talking about removing it or keeping it in the game. I am saying that in a high level tournament match, if a less skilled player can match a more skilled player because of a crutch, it is not cut out to be in tournament play.

 

[noboruplaysgames]

The definition of casual, from dictionary.com, is listed as "seeming or tending to be indifferent to what is happening; apathetic; unconcerned." If you haven't picked up on it by now, this isn't a casual opinion if multiple people are arguing for it.

If you read previous pages at all, which again does not seem to be the case, you would understand that top level Smash is significantly mentality-based. You can be the most technical player in the world on Fox and still get heavily outplayed by Marth. Tech is significant to the game, but it's neither the only significant thing, nor the most out of everything.

I never said it was. All I said was it is a large part of competitive play meaning that it is in fact a fundamental. And I am using casual as a player who isn't trying to preform on the highest possible level and compete. And I do agree about the mentality don't get me wrong. Hell, I am a Marth main so I do entirely agree that you can win without it. But ignoring it as a fundamental to competitive play would be wrong. I am not talking about whether it is necessary or not. I am saying that in a large competitive tournament setting, denying more skilled players their advantage because somebody did not want to take the time to practice should not be allowed

 

[Rawkobo]

I never said it was. All I said was it is a large part of competitive play meaning that it is in fact a fundamental. And I am using casual as a player who isn't trying to preform on the highest possible level and compete. And I do agree about the mentality don't get me wrong. Hell, I am a Marth main so I do entirely agree that you can win without it. But ignoring it as a fundamental to competitive play would be wrong. I am not talking about whether it is necessary or not. I am saying that in a large competitive tournament setting, denying more skilled players their advantage because somebody did not want to take the time to practice should not be allowed

It's not an advantage, though. We've explained this so many times.

 

[noboruplaysgames]

It's not an advantage, though. We've explained this so many times.

No it is for sure an advantage. I'm not sure if you mean l canceling as a whole or the auto l cancel. I'm pretty sure you already understand the advantage of l canceling itself so I won't address that but here is the problem with turning it on. Let's say that a low skill player faces a high skill player. Normally with l cancel off the low skill player could not keep up with the high skill player. However, with it turned on that high skill player who spent hours practicing could come close to losing because the lower player did not have to practice to keep up. In other words, if somebody couldnt score a goal in soccer past the goalie to score a point against a higher skilled team, but made a rule where goalies aren't allowed, he can then influence the flow of the game entirely. This will then lower the base skill level needed to win. Now we are talking about high level competitive matches. There is no sense in lowering the skill level needed for top level play. Rather it is harmful to the current top level players and would leave many people's time severely wasted

 

[Kurri ★]

To hype and atlas, you guys aren't looking at l canceling for what it is. I don't think you realize how much l canceling affects competitive smash. Most of the main tech aren't even 100% necessary for every character. For example how often will a wavedash save you as bowser or Zelda? L canceling is a technique that is absolutely essential to competitive smash. That's like saying get rid of three pointers in basketball because they are too hard to make. Of course they won't get rid of it because it's a key part to basketball. The same can be said for l canceling in competitive smash. The pros will be pros because they put hard work into becoming the best. Saying l canceling turns people away is the same as the three pointer analogy again. If people aren't willing to put in the work then they aren't cut out to be top players. And using health as an argument is 100% invalid. People can litterally DIE in sports like football and wrestling and people still do it. The players who understand the risks will take it and others will not. You guys are talking from a casual point of view. If you read my original post I stated that locals can have the decision to have it on or off but anything larger should have it off. Because news flash, we aren't playing casual smash. We are in a tournament scene competing to be the best. This is certainly true for project m of all the smashes which was designed specifically for bringing back competitive smash. If you don't like it play brawl or smash 4. If you are going to play like a casual, then you can't be the best. I know it's harsh but it's the truth. It's a tournament where top level players are playing. If top level players relied on crutches then nobody in the top level would still be there. Top level players have the skill to claim their positions and complaining that it's hard is a mentality that won't get you anywhere no matter what you do in life

Bruh, can we get some, like, breaks here and there, you know, make it easier to read. I'm not about to read a block of text that most likely has things we've already gone over if it looks like a chore.

See there, a nice little space.

 

[Rawkobo]

No it is for sure an advantage. I'm not sure if you mean l canceling as a whole or the auto l cancel. I'm pretty sure you already understand the advantage of l canceling itself so I won't address that but here is the problem with turning it on. Let's say that a low skill player faces a high skill player. Normally with l cancel off the low skill player could not keep up with the high skill player. However, with it turned on that high skill player who spent hours practicing could come close to losing because the lower player did not have to practice to keep up. In other words, if somebody couldnt score a goal in soccer past the goalie to score a point against a higher skilled team, but made a rule where goalies aren't allowed, he can then influence the flow of the game entirely. This will then lower the base skill level needed to win. Now we are talking about high level competitive matches. There is no sense in lowering the skill level needed for top level play. Rather it is harmful to the current top level players and would leave many people's time severely wasted

Eeeeexcept there's no advantage to L-cancelling. In previous discussions, the "reward" of L-cancelling is maintaining the status quo. This is a half-empty/half-full argument, aka a subjective argument that tries to put L-cancelling in a positive or negative light depending on connotation and it's highly ineffective in showing its worth as a fundamental. In fact, it's why it's a tech and not a fundamental, because tech is not equivalent to fundamental significance in Smash, once again.

 

[noboruplaysgames]

Bruh, can we get some, like, breaks here and there, you know, make it easier to read. I'm not about to read a block of text that most likely has things we've already gone over if it looks like a chore.

See there, a nice little space.

Lol if you came to read the thread chances are you read it anyways

 

[noboruplaysgames]

Eeeeexcept there's no advantage to L-cancelling. In previous discussions, the "reward" of L-cancelling is maintaining the status quo. This is a half-empty/half-full argument, aka a subjective argument that tries to put L-cancelling in a positive or negative light depending on connotation and it's highly ineffective in showing its worth as a fundamental. In fact, it's why it's a tech and not a fundamental, because tech is not equivalent to fundamental significance in Smash, once again.

Actually the reward of l canceling is avoiding many many punishes as well as continuing many combos that could not be pulled off otherwise. And again the fundamentals are refering to the competitive aspect only, not the game as a whole. That argument would be a lot more relevant if we were talking about playing the game in general. But when discussing high level play, any top level players concider tech a fundamental to competitive level play. Don't take my word for it. Look at any competitive guide by top level players ever and tell me that tech skill isnt a fundamental to competitive play

 

[Rawkobo]

Actually the reward of l canceling is avoiding many many punishes as well as continuing many combos that could not be pulled off otherwise. And again the fundamentals are refering to the competitive aspect only, not the game as a whole. That argument would be a lot more relevant if we were talking about playing the game in general. But when discussing high level play, any top level players concider tech a fundamental to competitive level play. Don't take my word for it. Look at any competitive guide by top level players ever and tell me that tech skill isnt a fundamental to competitive play

Most top players will also tell you that tech skill is not enough, nor what you should start with. I play consistently with veterans of Melee, so I'm plenty aware.

Also, you're confusing L-cancelling with spacing. Sorry.

 

[Narpas_sword]

@ noboruplaysgames

1. Read the rest of the thread.
2. Type your reply with some damn paragraphs.

I feel like in this post you ticked off all the clich'e replys.

To hype and atlas, you guys aren't looking at l canceling for what it is. I don't think you realize how much l canceling affects competitive smash. Most of the main tech aren't even 100% necessary for every character. For example how often will a wavedash save you as bowser or Zelda? L canceling is a technique that is absolutely essential to competitive smash. That's like saying get rid of three pointers in basketball because they are too hard to make. Of course they won't get rid of it because it's a key part to basketball. The same can be said for l canceling in competitive smash. The pros will be pros because they put hard work into becoming the best. Saying l canceling turns people away is the same as the three pointer analogy again. If people aren't willing to put in the work then they aren't cut out to be top players. And using health as an argument is 100% invalid. People can litterally DIE in sports like football and wrestling and people still do it. The players who understand the risks will take it and others will not. You guys are talking from a casual point of view. If you read my original post I stated that locals can have the decision to have it on or off but anything larger should have it off. Because news flash, we aren't playing casual smash. We are in a tournament scene competing to be the best. This is certainly true for project m of all the smashes which was designed specifically for bringing back competitive smash. If you don't like it play brawl or smash 4. If you are going to play like a casual, then you can't be the best. I know it's harsh but it's the truth. It's a tournament where top level players are playing. If top level players relied on crutches then nobody in the top level would still be there. Top level players have the skill to claim their positions and complaining that it's hard is a mentality that won't get you anywhere no matter what you do in life

Allude to us thinking l cancelling is hard? - Check
Tell us to play smash 4? Check
make a basketball comparison? - check
make a comparison missing the point completely? - check
say we are casual? - check
comparing it to other tech, while not understanding that other tech provides options, whereas L canceling doesnt? - Check.


Seriously bro, go back, read the thread.

If not, I can go ahead and play 'ask the questions' and see if you can provide some legitimate answers.
Because everyone else has seemed to avoid the tough ones.

 

[hype machine]

No it is for sure an advantage. I'm not sure if you mean l canceling as a whole or the auto l cancel. I'm pretty sure you already understand the advantage of l canceling itself so I won't address that but here is the problem with turning it on. Let's say that a low skill player faces a high skill player. Normally with l cancel off the low skill player could not keep up with the high skill player. However, with it turned on that high skill player who spent hours practicing could come close to losing because the lower player did not have to practice to keep up. In other words, if somebody couldnt score a goal in soccer past the goalie to score a point against a higher skilled team, but made a rule where goalies aren't allowed, he can then influence the flow of the game entirely. This will then lower the base skill level needed to win. Now we are talking about high level competitive matches. There is no sense in lowering the skill level needed for top level play. Rather it is harmful to the current top level players and would leave many people's time severely wasted

If a high level player almost loses to a low skill level player because the low skill level player can now l cancel, the high level player obviously isn't good, and lacks fundamentals. Also do you think being able to l cancel automatically makes you a high level player? Are you forgetting that there are also other techniques to master? Don't you know that L canceling isn't even the hardest part of SHFFLing? Being able To l cancel makes you viable at tournaments. knowing how to out space your opponent by dash dancing + wavedashing, shielding and spot dodging at the right times, having a good punish game, knowing how to punish out of shield, knowing how to Edgegaurd, having good reaction time, recognizing an opponents patterns, being able to spot frame traps on the fly and punish them, and more is what makes someone a high skilled level player.

 

[Kurri ★]

Lol if you came to read the thread chances are you read it anyways

What...

Being able To l cancel makes you viable at tournaments, knowing how out space your opponent by dash dancing + wavedashing, shielding and spot dodging at the right times, having a good punish game, knowing how to punish out of shield, knowing how to Edgegaurd, having good reaction time, recognizing an opponents patterns, being able to spot frame traps on the fly and punish them, and more is what makes someone a high skilled level player.

Look at all those things I can't do

 

[Bleck]

@ noboruplaysgames

can you explain to me what you mean when you say a casual point of view

 

[noboruplaysgames]

I can't go back and respond to everyone so to everyone who still can't get it through their heads that the main topic is whether or not auto l canceling should be used in big tournaments, I will restate it one more time. And don't worry I'll make sure not to use paragraphs. Nowhere did I say that l canceling is the only necessary tech and nowhere did i say that it is the only thing defining competitive smash. Also I am not mixing l canceling with spacing. That probably was the dumbest argument iv seen so far. So with those things out of the way, I could care less about how much exactly l canceling affects gameplay. Regardless of the exact numbers it does not change the fact that it is still a huge part of playing competitively. I don't care who you are, I don't care how much trash you talk behind a keyboard, when you are playing in tournament I bet you sure as hell use l canceling. Now I'm gonna say this one more time. Really think about it because if anyone realized what I was saying in my first paragraph this would not have gone on this long. No matter what you say, l canceling is a large part of tournament play. All current top players practiced hard to learn l canceling and giving a handout to players who are not willing to work hard to achieve better results is not fair. In a casual situation or even at a local it is not too big a deal. However when there is a larger scale tournament there has to be a rule about it. You can't have it on and off at the same time. So rather then lowering the amount of skill it takes to play at a higher level, we should take into concideration what a tournament is actually for. A tournament is to of course have fun, but it is also to show who is the best. I don't care about how much skill exactly l canceling takes, but regardless it adds skill and depth to competitive. No matter what, turning on auto l cancel brings down the total amount of skill needed to come out on top. When we are at a large and competitive tournament, we should use rules that compliment tournament play rather than harm it. Even if it doesent harm it much, it still does. We should be helping the tournament environment rather than harming it. Auto l cancel is great for starting players who are at home and want to practice other things first. However, if they feel good enough to be able to preform well at a larger tournament, they will already know most if not all necessary tech. L canceling should be a part of that belt of skills. Lately Narpas, the only part of your argument that was correct was the basketball reference, so good reading inference skills there XD. Even the comment about confusing spacing with l canceling was more intelligent than that

 

[noboruplaysgames]

@ noboruplaysgames

can you explain to me what you mean when you say a casual point of view

I meant that unless you look at it only from the perspective of high level tournament play, it is casual because they are discussing the game itself rather than the tournament environment. And thank you for being the only person to actually ask about what I was saying rather than blindly hating and missing the point entirely

 

[Bleck]

I meant that unless you look at it only from the perspective of high level tournament play, it is casual because they are discussing the game itself rather than the tournament environment.

do you understand that your argument here is that what people are saying is inherently wrong because their perspective differs from yours along an imaginary vector

you're literally arguing that people who disagree with you are wrong because they're disagreeing with you - it's not really an appreciable argument, and going out of your way to present it in an unpleasant way (not using paragraph breaks when people have asked you to, and repeatedly insulting other people) isn't exactly making it any better

 

[noboruplaysgames]

do you understand that your argument here is that what people are saying is inherently wrong because their perspective differs from yours along an imaginary vector

you're literally arguing that people who disagree with you are wrong because they're disagreeing with you - it's not really an appreciable argument, and going out of your way to present it in an unpleasant way (not using paragraph breaks when people have asked you to, and repeatedly insulting other people) isn't exactly making it any better

Well no see the issue I have with their argument is that they are discussing l canceling itself and it's uses while I'm talking about auto l canceling should not be used in tournaments larger than locals. While everyone's oppinions differed, everyone is aware that it does have benifits and does take skill. So the reason they are wrong is because not only are they discussing the wrong topic, but no matter what, taking away skill from the one thing designed to test your skill against many people is counter productive and therefore shouldn't be allowed. As for the insults they started it long before I did so they really had it coming. As for the block text I find it easier to let my thoughts flow when I just keep typing. On top of that I don't use forums and smash boards is the first. In other words, I don't really know forum ediquite but regardless the content of the text is what is important.

 

[Candypants]

The only real points here seems to be:

• Some characters lose options with auto-l-cancel (GnW etc).
• Some characters gain "options" with auto-l-cancel (Fox etc.).
• The skill floor of the game is lower with auto-l-cancel.

It changes the meta of the game, albeit slightly and very few instances. In my opinion it ALC should stay off in tournaments but it's totally up to the TO.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Uhhg.

I cant stand your blocks of text. but this line popped out at me.

. We should be helping the tournament environment rather than harming it.

How on earth is alienating new players by raising the skill floor by forcing an arbitrary input 'helping the tournament environment'?

Surely getting more players into the scene, and having them work on the meta by toying with mechanics that are actually OPTIONS rather than an extra button press is better?

L cancelling adds NO VALUE to the game.
It makes things harder for new players. That is all.
Auto L Cancel won't change a high level game. - it doesn't affect the skill ceiling. you lose literally zero options by having it auto rather than manual.

If you think it adds value, please answer these questions:

Would more value be added if you had to use R and L at the same time?
Explain your answer.

Would It add more Value if landing lag for Special moves was doubled, then L cancelling gets implemented for them.
(so now you have to L cancel to Short Hop Blaster, or to recover on stage without being given a massive punish window).
Explain your answer.


And please use paragraphs. =/

 

[Bleck]

So the reason they are wrong is because not only are they discussing the wrong topic

it's not up to you to decide what other people talk about

So the reason they are wrong is because not only are they discussing the wrong topic, but no matter what, taking away skill from the one thing designed to test your skill against many people is counter productive and therefore shouldn't be allowed.

like I'm sure being able to l-cancel makes a lot of people feel good about themselves but the real fact of the matter here is that literally everybody who plays PM can l-cancel consistently

you and others who are for l-canceling argue that the game would somehow be less valuable if l-canceling weren't a thing, but as everyone else has said several times, the game wouldn't actually change at all (i.e the overwhelming majority of players hit 90% of their l-cancels or higher, and a whiffed l-cancel is literally impossible to punish on reaction)

the only thing that would change is that your sense of satisfaction from your own skills would suffer somewhat, which... doesn't matter? if you have an unreasonable attachment to a mechanic because you overvalue your ability to do it successfully, that doesn't really affect whether or not the mechanic is actually valuable in a competitive setting

As for the insults they started it long before I did so they really had it coming.

insulting people is against the forum's rules regardless of "who started it", and it's also just generally uncool

 

[noboruplaysgames]

Uhhg.

I cant stand your blocks of text. but this line popped out at me.



How on earth is alienating new players by raising the skill floor by forcing an arbitrary input 'helping the tournament environment'?

Surely getting more players into the scene, and having them work on the meta by toying with mechanics that are actually OPTIONS rather than an extra button press is better?

L cancelling adds NO VALUE to the game.
It makes things harder for new players. That is all.
Auto L Cancel won't change a high level game. - it doesn't affect the skill ceiling. you lose literally zero options by having it auto rather than manual.

If you think it adds value, please answer these 3 questions:

Would more value be added if you had to use R and L at the same time?
Explain your answer.

Would It add more Value if landing lag for Special moves was doubled, then L cancelling gets implemented for them.
(so now you have to L cancel to Short Hop Blaster, or to recover on stage without being given a massive punish window).
Explain your answer.


And please use paragraphs. =/

Ok since you put this one much more nicely I will use paragraphs.

So to answer your first question the amount of buttons required to execute the l cancel does not matter. As long as there is at least some way to execute it, it still requires some amount of skill to use. Of course people implement different custom controls and such so I can't say that it takes less skill to press one button or the other. So no, it would not add more value with extra buttons, but it's the fact that you must execute it manually that adds the skill factor.

For your second question, it wouldn't really be doing much of anything. Now I realize that by making it harder, it does technically raise the skill floor meaning it is for sure not a negative thing. However, because l canceling is already something in the game, it is a tool that players utilize to get better results. The difference between the current l cancel situation and the l canceling for specials is that landing lag otherwise would be doubled. If you are required to l cancel specials without the added landing lag, moves like rest, falcon punch, ect could get a bit rediculous. L canceling as it is can't really make the game unfair. However implementing it into other moves causes imbalance and as for recovering on stage im not quite sure what you mean.

I don't see a third question but you can feel free to ask me anything and I will gladly answer.

it's not up to you to decide what other people talk about



like I'm sure being able to l-cancel makes a lot of people feel good about themselves but the real fact of the matter here is that literally everybody who plays PM can l-cancel consistently

you and others who are for l-canceling argue that the game would somehow be less valuable if l-canceling weren't a thing, but as everyone else has said several times, the game wouldn't actually change at all (i.e the overwhelming majority of players hit 90% of their l-cancels or higher, and a whiffed l-cancel is literally impossible to punish on reaction)

the only thing that would change is that your sense of satisfaction from your own skills would suffer somewhat, which... doesn't matter? if you have an unreasonable attachment to a mechanic because you overvalue your ability to do it successfully, that doesn't really affect whether or not the mechanic is actually valuable in a competitive setting



insulting people is against the forum's rules regardless of "who started it", and it's also just generally uncool

Most of what you said is generally true. And if you were talking about how l canceling affects all players, you would be right. However there are people who cannot yet hit their l cancels that consistently. If the people who did not have mastery over l canceling was to be on even footing with someone who does (of course refering to l canceling only not overall skill or performance) it therefore makes all the other persons practice a waste and lowers the base skill floor even if it's only sightly

 

[Bleck]

it doesn't matter if the other person's practice was a waste; their time is not more inherently valuable than other people's time

what you're essentially arguing there is that "if I had to learn to do it, other people should too" - that has nothing to do with "depth" or the "skill floor" or "skill ceiling" or whatever other nonsense people are talking about, that's literally just being salty that other people may end up having an easier time of it than you did

expecting people to have to do something because otherwise it wouldn't be "fair" to you is just plain selfish, yo - if you really think that making the game, the metagame, and the community overall better in one fell swoop is less important than whether or not you can personally use the game and your prowess at it to boost your opinion of yourself, then I think your opinion on the matter just might not be that important

 

[Draco_The]

The only real points here seems to be:

• Some characters lose options with auto-l-cancel (GnW etc).
• Some characters gain "options" with auto-l-cancel (Fox etc.).
• The skill floor of the game is lower with auto-l-cancel.

It changes the meta of the game, albeit slightly and very few instances. In my opinion it ALC should stay off in tournaments but it's totally up to the TO.

• Game and Watch doesn't lose anything with L-cancel. His down air still hits L-cancel or not, and if L-cancel really affects something then that can be solved through PSA.
  
• Fox doesn't get anything with auto L-cancel. He does exactly the same things he can do by pressing L on landing lag when having it on auto.
• What's wrong with lowering the skill floor?

It doesn't change meta at all. You're doing the exact same things you can do with L-cancel but without having to press a button. It doesn't give characters more options or any other thing.

 

[noboruplaysgames]

it doesn't matter if the other person's practice was a waste; their time is not more inherently valuable than other people's time

what you're essentially arguing there is that "if I had to learn to do it, other people should too" - that has nothing to do with "depth" or the "skill floor" or "skill ceiling" or whatever other nonsense people are talking about, that's literally just being salty that other people may end up having an easier time of it than you did

expecting people to have to do something because otherwise it wouldn't be "fair" to you is just plain selfish, yo - if you really think that making the game, the metagame, and the community overall better in one fell swoop is less important than whether or not you can personally use the game and your prowess at it to boost your opinion of yourself, then I think your opinion on the matter just might not be that important

I think that you are misunderstanding my intentions. As it stands if i only cared about my own l canceling, I would just play mostly melee. However I have seen what the whole customs argument has done to smash 4 so I dont want that to be happening to project m. I do not have any selfish intentions. However it does affect the overall skill levels. If someone had an easier time learning it then others there would be no problems. It's when a handout is given that the issue arises. Because if tech can be handed out then we could say there should be a wavedash button, a short hop button, ect. Eventually it would take less skill to play then even brawl. (Sorry for firing shots brawl people lol)