Automatic L-Cancelling Discussion

[JOE!]

No! Not even pros have perfect execution. We have the mewtwoking robot joke, but there is no pro in the history of melee that plays without execution error. We see azen dashs and failed ledgedashs steal souls all the time. Even at Ceo a few days ago.

*snip*

All good points and examples, but as a counter-point: what if they simply don't mess up? In such a scenario, you are boned it seems though in practice they -will- mess up throughout the course of a set. As you say, 20XX gets closer and closer and even Armada has swapped to Fox as a reflection of this (Imo).

As Atlas stated, the Zen style of design is great but it doesn't fit in a multiplayer environment when there are supposed to be other viable options. Say (X Character) is only balanced due to human error, either input-wise or mental, then compare them to a character that does not get to have such powerful options/whatever under the assumption that they "can afford mistakes". The better you get with the former character, the less and less valid the latter becomes since the "weakness" becomes less and less.

To put this back on track however, Auto-Lcancels won't suddenly make things TAS level, it will simply make things smoother over all. Sure, Spacies can Dair shields more consistently, but if you were praying for them to mess up that without other plans then that's kinda... ya. You also have less room for Spacies to punish you outside spacing errors and such since you won't be messing up Lcancels either don't forget!

 

[Jaedrik]

The principle incarnate is getting as much out of the player as is reasonably possible. To accomplish this, interfaces should be as intuitive and direct as is reasonably possible. Unfortunately, it happens that we are physical beings, and are bound by such things as fingers and controllers. It also happens that, sometimes, removing the difficulty may reduce the amount of depth of the game by an unacceptable degree.
Now, if we examine l-canceling, one easily sees that it is by far the most egregious, and perhaps the only worthy, offense to the principle of getting good gameplay out of a player. It pits the player against the game to a greater degree than any other mechanic, and punishes the players to such a degree that any dubious merit that could come of it (say, shifting the game's offense-defense bias towards the latter) is vastly outweighed.

Taken to its logical end, the principle seems to indicate a direct brain interface to be the ideal. It is, it's simply not reasonably possible (read, practical). :D

 

[Quillion]

...It pits the player against the game to a greater degree than any other mechanic, and punishes the players to such a degree that any dubious merit that could come of it (say, shifting the game's offense-defense bias towards the latter) is vastly outweighed.

Nope, shifts it towards the former.

Also @Stryker pretty much hit the nail on the head why Fox and Falco are brilliantly designed. Don't get why PMDev can design Wolf and Sonic to be like that too.

 

[Ningildo]

We brought up fox again. Oh goodie. Because the only thing better then one topic done to death being discussed is two such topics being discussed at the same time.

And if execution is the only balancing factor...um, that's not brilliant design. 3.0 Lucas also had this. Blatantly broken traits that only have difficulty in execution as a weakness (the tools that spacies have are easy as hell to apply to your game) will get more and more overbearing as players get better.

So yeah, it does reward spacie mains for getting better and the enticing thought that they have still have to reach high, high ceiling, so that they'll continue improving for a good deal. It just will suck for everyone else who chose a different character, as the MU becomes less lenient as time goes on. But hey, their fault for not picking top tiers, right? It's not like this is a different game than Melee or that this game aims for balance that isn't just revolved around the top 8.

Obligatory IMO.

 

[Infinite901]

Auot-L-cancel shouldn't be standard, but it + zero to death + Turbo would create a very interesting side event.

 

[Sieghart]

https://youtu.be/QggeYcLPszI?t=3m11s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpxEMEEge4o
Except players like westballz have shown us what shine shieldpressure can do. Why hasn't it happened yet? It has, but only the top few spacies can do it because of how difficult it is. With auto lcancelling, this kind of thing becomes common. There are answers yes, but that doesn't mean that that situation should happen more frequently.

Look, if you're going to act like you actually know something about what I'm talking about at least do your research first. Shine pressure is not safe. Especially not Westballz pressure. It's ridiculously easy to interrupt with just about any option seeing there's an already fair gap between the first and second shines then there's another extremely large gap while Falco wavelands back down and then has to wait through the 10 frames of lag that has. If you can think of even one character without at least one option that can interrupt that I'll give you a cookie. Normal shine pressure can easily be Shield DI'd or rolled out of. My point was that the reason it hasn't happened yet isn't because no one can do it. It's because the theories that are for whatever stupid reason considered undeniably true, have been disproven time and time again. The only reason anyone's shield breaks because of that pressure is because they're either too scared to act out, hoping the opponent messes up so they can get an ezpz punish, or they're like you and they actually think there's no way out. It's also possible they keep missing the timing but that's rarely the case because it really is a simple endeavor once you realize it can be done.

I'm not sure if you actually even know anything about spacies or shield pressure in general, but let explain this as simply as I can. Shield pressure is used to force reactions, not to break shields. That's why it's referred to as a way to pressure a shield rather than a way to break a shield. I don't really mean to insult you but I assumed this was common knowledge by now. I suppose I shouldn't have made that assumption.

Either way, regardless of what you've said it's got nothing to do with l-canceling. Which is what's really funny here. How in the world do things like multishine shield pressure become more common because aerial landing lag is automatically decreased rather than done manually? I mean, let's try to apply some logic here. Every player serious about Melee or PM already has either a 100% or a near 100% l-cancel success rate. It's not very hard. Every spacie worth their salt can already pressure shields properly and many of them, regardless of whether you've seen them do it or not, can actually multishine on shield if they wanted to. The reason they don't want to, of course, is because there's no reason to since their are better alternatives than a half-baked attempt at breaking someone's shield that only works because said someone was too preoccupied wetting their pants to option-select their way out of it. So, once again, educate us as to how you can tell the future better than even the best players of this game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If you believe that one day human error will not exist, then yes. But that's kind of optimistic.
Spacies get glimpses of godhood, but thats about it. They are too technically demanding to be played to their skill ceiling 100%time, and that's what lets other characters beat them. Their design lends itself to being a unreachable skill ceiling glass cannon.

Relying on human error to balance a character is a terrible mindset.

You should focus on the current tools and what they do over only dealing with it if it hits 20xx or 20gx.

 

[Quillion]

Relying on human error to balance a character is a terrible mindset.

You should focus on the current tools and what they do over only dealing with it if it hits 20xx or 20gx.

You know, what I'm really disappointed is that only the Melee Fragile Speedsters have their insanely high skill cap yet PMDT didn't put much effort into making others that way. Aside from the speedsters, it's difficult to see the difference between PM and Smash U.

 

[4tlas]

You know, what I'm really disappointed is that only the Melee Fragile Speedsters have their insanely high skill cap yet PMDT didn't put much effort into making others that way. Aside from the speedsters, it's difficult to see the difference between PM and Smash U.

3.02 Lucas and Mewtwo probably fit the bill. 2.5 Sonic and 2.6 Ike (or the other way around, IDR) as well. They all got toned down (Sonic had to be, that **** was beyond guaranteed). Spacies should be too.

I mean personally I would prefer 3.02 levels of bork but there was so much salt everywhere lol

 

[Quillion]

3.02 Lucas and Mewtwo probably fit the bill. 2.5 Sonic and 2.6 Ike (or the other way around, IDR) as well. They all got toned down (Sonic had to be, that **** was beyond guaranteed). Spacies should be too.

I mean personally I would prefer 3.02 levels of bork but there was so much salt everywhere lol

PM community being hypocritical. Who'da thunk it?

C'mon, PMDev, bring this stuff back. We love the Star Fox duo for a reason (and make Wolf like them dammit!)

But one last thing: you sure those characters had insanely high skill caps?

 

[4tlas]

PM community being hypocritical. Who'da thunk it?

C'mon, PMDev, bring this stuff back. We love the Star Fox duo for a reason (and make Wolf like them dammit!)

But one last thing: you sure those characters had insanely high skill caps?

Lucas and Mewtwo, yes I think so. Sonic only because he was stupidly good. Ike I'm less sure about.

Flexibility is the ultimate skill cap, because it means there is always a different option you can pick, just one more way you can outplay your opponent. The more tools a character has, the higher their skill cap. Lucas was sorta like Fox+Falco with his easy approach using PK Freeze and then ridiculous combos, pressure, frame traps, and recovery. He had it all. If you wanted a higher skillcap, go Lucas. Mewtwo had such a high cap just because of teleport and float, which were immensely powerful tools. Though they didn't require much technical skill, the sheer number of options they opened up gave him a tremendous skillcap.

Ike's quickdraw fills a similar purpose, but I don't think it is as strong as Fox's inherent speed.

 

[Sieghart]

PM community being hypocritical. Who'da thunk it?

C'mon, PMDev, bring this stuff back. We love the Star Fox duo for a reason (and make Wolf like them dammit!)

But one last thing: you sure those characters had insanely high skill caps?

Yes, those characters did indeed have amazing skill caps. Lucas was a better spacie than Fox and Falco could've ever hoped to be. So much so that after people saw what he can do, everybody and their mothers bandwagoned him just like people do with Fox and Falco. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmXht3jTWgY) What made lucas better is that his combos could often lead into guaranteed kills and he had one of the best DACUS's in the game and his upsmash allowed for near-Fox shenanigans. Mewtwo had infinite ledgestalls, likely one of the main forces driving the ledge invincibility limit, as well as Teleport autocancels, hover aerials that made Fox/Falco/Falcon combo fodder, the ability to hover in teleport and vice versa, and the ability to act directly out of teleport without losing your double jump.

To be completely honest, PM was definitely more fun in 3.02 but it was almost much more broken in the sense that it wasn't a balanced experience like they were aiming for. It was much like Melee in regards to tier list, really. I do miss it, though.

Anyways let's try to keep the thread on topic, even if there's pretty much nothing meaningful left to say that hasn't already been said in some way.

 

[Foo]

Ruh-roh. Didn't think this would happen, but imo this is the worst L-cancel option. I could be wrong, but I predict that this will severely damage the number of casual PM players joining the tournament scene (whether new to smash, or primarily brawl/sm4sh players) because they will play with this option on, and then not want to play at tourney's because not being able to L-cancel means nothing they normally do with aerials works anymore and they will get rekt, and many of them will not be willing to learn this/not be able to practice because their friends won't want to turn it off. When I was getting started, the only reason I wanted to get better was to beat my friends and to do that I had to L-cancel. Eventually I got into tourneys, but I never would have learned to L-cancel had I been able to play with my friends without it.

(P.S. In case anyone brings this quote up "The dev team gives and gives, yet people are just never happy." I was saying this before release).

I hope I am wrong about this, but only time will tell. It's kinda awkward. I think if L-canceling was made auto for tourneys, we might lose some melee players and gain some sm4shers, but I think we only lose fresh blood in the tourney scene this way. Oh well, maybe some of the baddies I used to play against will be more of a challenge if I play again.

Anyway, since this and buffer are both casual aimed options, this question may become relevant. If you have both auto-lcanceling and 3 frame buffer on, will players attempting an L-canceling (out of muscle memory, practice, or whatever) will it buffer shield? That's a big reason I found sm4sh unplayable. I'd always try to L-cancel and buffer rolls and stuff on accident.


Anyway, I just kinda skimmed a couple pages and it seemed like people were arguing over gameplay stuff. Maybe I misread, but this change will have basically zero impact on gameplay outside of low/mid level play. This has been argued many times, but good players hit all their L-cancels, and the ones they "miss" are usually auto cancels, ledge cancels, or ****-it cancels (i.e. hitting someone with a knee of justice at 80 and not bothering to L-cancel) Any ACTUAL missed cancels were never really punished because you couldn't expect it or react to it. Players focus much more on spacing/positioning/move choice/etc mistakes because they happen regularly and are generally much more punishable.

I wasn't really that good and I certainly wasn't that technical, but I'd generally get 95% l-cancel rate with all but a few being ****-it cancels (usually after landing fair to end a combo)


Pretty obvious and probably already mentioned, but it'd be best to have this option changable in names so each individual player could decide. That way casual friends won't hold potentially competitive PM players back.

Anyway, on topic:

 

[Kurri ★]

Ruh-roh. Didn't think this would happen, but imo this is the worst L-cancel option. I could be wrong, but I predict that this will severely damage the number of casual PM players joining the tournament scene (whether new to smash, or primarily brawl/sm4sh players) because they will play with this option on, and then not want to play at tourney's because not being able to L-cancel means nothing they normally do with aerials works anymore and they will get rekt, and many of them will not be willing to learn this/not be able to practice because their friends won't want to turn it off. When I was getting started, the only reason I wanted to get better was to beat my friends and to do that I had to L-cancel. Eventually I got into tourneys, but I never would have learned to L-cancel had I been able to play with my friends without it.

I doubt it, if having to L-Cancel deters someone from joining competitive PM, they probably were never into it in the first place.

I hope I am wrong about this, but only time will tell. It's kinda awkward. I think if L-canceling was made auto for tourneys, we might lose some melee players and gain some sm4shers, but I think we only lose fresh blood in the tourney scene this way. Oh well, maybe some of the baddies I used to play against will be more of a challenge if I play again.

And I doubt this, if having auto L-Cancel deters someone from staying in competitive PM, they probably were never into it in the first place.
That, and while removing L-Cancel removes a(n) unnecessary skill barrier, it's not going to automatically make a whole bunch of people better. Those baddies you're referring to will still have to worry about proper spacing, proper use of defensive and offensive options, wavedashing, teching, etc. etc.

Anyway, since this and buffer are both casual aimed options, this question may become relevant. If you have both auto-lcanceling and 3 frame buffer on, will players attempting an L-canceling (out of muscle memory, practice, or whatever) will it buffer shield? That's a big reason I found sm4sh unplayable. I'd always try to L-cancel and buffer rolls and stuff on accident.

Possibly, but why would you have both on in the first place? For your casual friends? I don't think they're going to mind not having a buffer, I doubt they'll even notice.

Anyway, I just kinda skimmed a couple pages and it seemed like people were arguing over gameplay stuff. Maybe I misread, but this change will have basically zero impact on gameplay outside of low/mid level play. This has been argued many times, but good players hit all their L-cancels, and the ones they "miss" are usually auto cancels, ledge cancels, or ****-it cancels (i.e. hitting someone with a knee of justice at 80 and not bothering to L-cancel) Any ACTUAL missed cancels were never really punished because you couldn't expect it or react to it. Players focus much more on spacing/positioning/move choice/etc mistakes because they happen regularly and are generally much more punishable.

That's basically our point. Making it automatic won't affect top level play, and make low/mid level more accessible, which contrary to popular belief, isn't a bad thing.

I wasn't really that good and I certainly wasn't that technical, but I'd generally get 95% l-cancel rate with all but a few being ****-it cancels (usually after landing fair to end a combo)


Pretty obvious and probably already mentioned, but it'd be best to have this option changable in names so each individual player could decide. That way casual friends won't hold potentially competitive PM players back.

My only question is how this would work. I understand "adding" features is actually just replacing something. IDR what auto L-Cancel replaced, but I know that's how it was added.

Anyway, on topic:

is cooler

 

[4tlas]

I play competitive PM and don't L-cancel. Don't think I've ever even done it by accident. I know everyone else does, and I play my options as if I never L-cancel and my opponents always do. It works fine, I'm just an objectively worse player for it. But wait, maybe not. I never miss those cancels, I spend more of my brainpower or critical thinking than tech, and I can use it as a mindgame. By that last one, I mean that if my opponent has heard of me, I can usually gauge whether they'll be intimidated or dismissive, and then play off their emotional play. So yeah, I'd be mostly better if I L-cancelled.

Anyway, my point is that generalizations are fine, but try not to make them absolutes if you can help it. Many people who don't want to L-cancel will not want to play this game competitively, but some may. I think auto-L-cancel is a fine way to let them get a taste of hanging with the big boys just long enough that they might get hooked and change their minds about the L-cancel. And even if they don't change their minds, they could still just be like me and compete without it.

 

[Infinite901]

Ike's quickdraw fills a similar purpose, but I don't think it is as strong as Fox's inherent speed.

Ike is actually a quite good example. If m2k was really a robot he would main Ike in PM, because he would land the Quick-Draw insta-kill every time.

 

[Trollinguy]

Auto L cancelling is gonna mess up the balance for casual players. Now hear me out.

My friends who are casual struggle learning a characters moves, especially air attacks (and never learn tilts unless they accidentally input them, which they can't do with any regularity) . Most of the time they switch characters every game so they don't have time to actually learn every move. Sometimes they will learn a specials, sometimes they won't. Unless it's link's bow, bowser bomb, or pika getting the **** spammed out of him, they only use them irregularly. That literally leaves them spamming the c-stick 70% of the time, jabs 10%, and specials 20% (roughly/random ass guess). Now if they are in the air and they throw out an air attack, that landing lag is critical for the other person to be able to get a punish if they manage to dodge it/get lucky. The only punish options they know are smash or jab. With auto L-cancel the game would speed up to make air attacks overpowered for casual players. To summarize, auto L cancel would allow my casual friends to just spam air attacks against each other in neutral and they would lack the tools to stop it besides out spamming air attacks

Believe it or not, the game has some balance on the casual level. One could argue that you can't balance casual game play because it lacks using optimal anything 90% of the time. Yes this is true, but if my casual friends learn that they can just space air attacks in neutral without punishment, that's all they are going to do.

Now smash has always been a great game because it appeals to casual players and it can still be a competitive game. When I play with my casual friends, I literally don't use the L or R button at all so I can still try but not just crush them. It's alot of fun and if any them get too spam happy I'll just try a little harder on them so they stop. If every single one of them is spamming air attacks the carnage spam will be unstoppable. (Also pokaballz and bomb bombs only is great ****.)

and yes I understand this is my opinion, they are are different levels of casual, yada yada yada

TL:dr- Auto L cancel speeds up the game too much for my casual friends and makes air attacks OP.

 

[Foo]

I doubt it, if having to L-Cancel deters someone from joining competitive PM, they probably were never into it in the first place.

Since I am a good example of it, I WASN'T that in to PM in the first place. It tagging along to a tournament with a friend a couple times that got me to that point, and believe me, I got REALLY into PM. The only reason I am not playing anymore is completely unrelated to the game.

And I doubt this, if having auto L-Cancel deters someone from staying in competitive PM, they probably were never into it in the first place.
That, and while removing L-Cancel removes a(n) unnecessary skill barrier, it's not going to automatically make a whole bunch of people better. Those baddies you're referring to will still have to worry about proper spacing, proper use of defensive and offensive options, wavedashing, teching, etc. etc.

Not saying they will suddenly not be baddies or anything, but surely having halved landing lag on all their aerials will make them a little more challenging.

Possibly, but why would you have both on in the first place? For your casual friends? I don't think they're going to mind not having a buffer, I doubt they'll even notice.

I don't know and have never played with buffer on, but I bet someone could. Buffer and auto L-cancel are there specifically for casual players, so it'd make sense that they'd be used together. (if anything, nobody at all uses buffering.)

That's basically our point. Making it automatic won't affect top level play, and make low/mid level more accessible, which contrary to popular belief, isn't a bad thing.

Are you disagreeing with me, or...? I just kinda made a general statement there, wasn't targeted at anyone in particular. I guess you aren't familiar with me at all because I am strongly in favor of making the game as accessible as possible (without sacrificing depth) and was pushing for L-canceling to be removed all together and have all aerials at halved landing lag with no option to turn L-canceling back on (due to the concerns mentioned in my first post).

My only question is how this would work. I understand "adding" features is actually just replacing something. IDR what auto L-Cancel replaced, but I know that's how it was added.

Forgot to type in a sentence in that part. I meant to have "I assume, since it's so obvious, that it isn't an option in names because it isn't possible." I bet it could replace rumble, but that would cause more problems and I don't know what else they could do. Maybe it could replace test or something? xD I'm just going to sleep soundly on the assumption that the devs know much more than me about that.

is cooler

Agreed, but everyone was talking about dat fox.

 

[Kurri ★]

Are you disagreeing with me, or...? I just kinda made a general statement there, wasn't targeted at anyone in particular. I guess you aren't familiar with me at all because I am strongly in favor of making the game as accessible as possible (without sacrificing depth) and was pushing for L-canceling to be removed all together and have all aerials at halved landing lag with no option to turn L-canceling back on (due to the concerns mentioned in my first post).

Was just making a general statement.

 

[masterpad]

the whole l-canceling thing is people scared of lowering the skill floor, forgetting that it doesn't affect the skill ceiling at all.

That is only your point of view and is by the way COMPLETLY WRONG in my opinion.
Just stop cryig and get in the lab...

This AutoLcancel option is only going to make lasy mourning poeple more lasy and mourning...

 

[Phaiyte]

If you have trouble L cancelling after playing some auto for a short time, chances are you weren't going to make it out of pools in that melee tournament anyways.

That arbitrary button press is the only reason PM and Melee are as fast as they are. They provide a suitable mix of low landing lag and high landing lag that allows for fast-paced mental interaction and technical play.

Providing one without the other leads to slowness.

This is dumbest ****. All you'd have to do is take out the landlag to equal what it would be when L cancelled and it's golden.

 

[Bleck]

any arguments that rely on the idea of someone being "casual" is irrelevant (because "casual players" don't exist)

 

[Sieghart]

That is only your point of view and is by the way COMPLETLY WRONG in my opinion.

It's not an opinion or point of view, it's obvious fact. No offense, but you can't just decide whether or not fact is fact. You can dismiss it all you want but that's not how it works. He said it only effects the skill floor and does nothing to the skill ceiling. That's completely true. The only way to change the skill ceiling is to implement a change that effects the technical constraints of the game. Auto-LC does not do this because it simply automates something that's already in the game. It only effects you, not the game. Basically:

Skill Ceiling = The Game's Constraints, Skill Floor = Minimum Human Constraints

Implementing Auto-LC lowers the skill floor by making the lessening the human element but does not effect the skill ceiling at all because regardless of Auto-LC or no, you can still LC. LCing is still happening. Skill ceiling's don't change because people don't have to learn certain things anymore, skill floors do. That's a very simplified explanation of it but so far you've demonstrated yourself as a very... simplified person. So I guess it fits.

 

[wiiztec]

many of them will not be willing to learn this/not be able to practice because their friends won't want to turn it off.

I made it so it only flashes when you do the input http://www.mediafire.com/download/ib1ib6y4b7rrl9w/RSBE01.gct

with this you can still practice L-Canceling while it's on auto. it'll be included in 3.6 full so it's official

 

[Kurri ★]

That is only your point of view and is by the way COMPLETLY WRONG in my opinion.
Just stop cryig and get in the lab...

This AutoLcancel option is only going to make lasy mourning poeple more lasy and mourning...

That's not an argument.

 

[Quillion]

This is dumbest ****. All you'd have to do is take out the landlag to equal what it would be when L cancelled and it's golden.

But because moves are so safe, no one's going to want to punish because landing lag is so low. This is what the whole point is.

 

[4tlas]

But because moves are so safe, no one's going to want to punish because landing lag is so low. This is what the whole point is.

I don't L-cancel and my opponents do 100%. We still have fully competitive games. I don't have any assumption that they will screw up when I punish, and they don't pick options in case they were to screw up their L-cancel. Its a non-issue. It might as well not be there. All its doing is making new players even worse at the game and scared at the sheer amount of work they have to put in just to start playing, while also letting players who have learned and value L-cancelling feel more accomplished. Meh, I say. Meh.

 

[Rawkobo]

But because moves are so safe, no one's going to want to punish because landing lag is so low. This is what the whole point is.

How is this remotely true? Aerials are incredibly unsafe on shield a vast majority of the time unless shield health is low. How is reducing landing lag going to change anything about that?

 

[4tlas]

How is this remotely true? Aerials are incredibly unsafe on shield a vast majority of the time unless shield health is low. How is reducing landing lag going to change anything about that?

Well then aerials would still serve as anti-approach while approaching, assuming you use them on the empty space in front of an opponent. But landing lag is still enough there anyway, since everyone already L-cancels and can still be punished currently so...

 

[Sieghart]

Well then aerials would still serve as anti-approach while approaching, assuming you use them on the empty space in front of an opponent. But landing lag is still enough there anyway, since everyone already L-cancels and can still be punished currently so...

Just wanted to make sure you realize that you and Rawkobo are arguing the same point. My bad if this was unneeded.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Are people actively looking for missed L cancels, in order to use their OOS option?
I dont see that as viable play. surely you should be looking for OOS options that work even if they land the L cancel?

 

[CORY]

You also can't feasibly react to missed lcancels consciously. You'd need at least 15 frames to notice it was missed, before accounting for your own actions, which would mean 30 or more frames of normal landing lag.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Yea, that's exactly right. it's not even a 'skill' recognising a fail, it's simply hope.

 

[4tlas]

Just wanted to make sure you realize that you and Rawkobo are arguing the same point. My bad if this was unneeded.

For the most part we are, but he was taking it one step farther than I agreed with, so I argued against that part. He said "Aerials are incredibly unsafe on shield a vast majority of the time unless shield health is low. How is reducing landing lag going to change anything about that?" so I pointed out that it would have an effect outside of putting aerials on shield. It would make spaced aerials to block approaches "safer". I put that in quotes because we both agree its actually negligible/inconsequential.

 

[Rawkobo]

For the most part we are, but he was taking it one step farther than I agreed with, so I argued against that part. He said "Aerials are incredibly unsafe on shield a vast majority of the time unless shield health is low. How is reducing landing lag going to change anything about that?" so I pointed out that it would have an effect outside of putting aerials on shield. It would make spaced aerials to block approaches "safer". I put that in quotes because we both agree its actually negligible/inconsequential.

Except that's what people should be doing in the first place. O_o

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Are people actively looking for missed L cancels, in order to use their OOS option?
I dont see that as viable play. surely you should be looking for OOS options that work even if they land the L cancel?

I believe people should punish aerials before they even touch your shield in the first place to prevent shield stun. How likely is a punish then, L-Cancel or not?


Edit: A question directed to Quillion more than Narpas

 

[4tlas]

Except that's what people should be doing in the first place. O_o

Well of course. We agree, you just didn't say it. You asked the wrong rhetorical question!

 

[Trollinguy]

4tlas I know your a Zelda Main. We both know that bair is free on shield with proper spacing on most of the cast.

 

[4tlas]

4tlas I know your a Zelda Main. We both know that bair is free on shield with proper spacing on most of the cast.

I'm not sure what that has to do with it, since it isn't free if Zelda lands during it. She has to run straight up to them then jump if she wants it safe on shield, and that carries different risks. Its all rock paper scissors, and that's why I don't need to L-cancel to play.

 

[Trollinguy]

She has to run straight up to them then jump if she wants it safe on shield, and that carries different risks.

Very True. I guess I'm just so used to using dins if I ever try just straight up running in and LKing.