Automatic L-Cancelling Discussion

[AuraMaudeGone]

Problem with that is that bad decisions have barely any punishment because landing lag is so small that there's no way to capitalize on mistakes. This leads to overly safe play.

But on the other hand, higher landing lag means that there is no way to have the elaborate damage-dealing and finishing combos that Melee and PM (or at least the Fragile Speedsters) are known for. This leads to overly safe play.

I want to challenge everyone who likes this minority-pandering BS: is there ANY OTHER WAY to have both elaborate combos while having a fair amount of opportunity to punish? NO!

Focus on one thing.
We're already on our way to "overly safe play" because not a lot of moves are safe on shield and hit @ low percent when not spaced well.
On the point of Aerials and Landing, you seem to ignore other defensive options and advantages, like Spot Dodging, Rolling, Wave Dashing away, or just Anti-Airing/Contesting the aerial with your own. As previously mentioned, movement options is what helps gives this game depth.

 

[Rawkobo]

Focus on one thing.
We're already on our way to "overly safe play" because not a lot of moves are safe on shield and hit @ low percent when not spaced well.
On the point of Aerials and Landing, you seem to ignore other defensive options and advantages, like Spot Dodging, Rolling, Wave Dashing away, or just Anti-Airing/Contesting the aerial with your own. As previously mentioned, movement options is what helps gives this game depth.

Exactly.

Funnily enough, you also just described Melee. Who would've thought that all of these points apply to a game whose engine we're trying to cling to for all the wrong reasons in addition to all the right ones?

 

[Skimchee]

To preface my comment: I started on PM and switched to Melee, but I'm not for or against having Auto-LC on for tournaments. I actually think the PM Devs should make a call on if L-cancelling is in the game or not, instead of this halfway option which either: (1) allows people to practice with an option that may not be legal in tournaments which makes them more unprepared than they normally would be or (2) if it is legal in tournaments, it nullifies the practice that non Auto-LC players do with regard to L-cancelling in mid-combo or shield-pressure situations, essentially wasting their time entirely. This is one of the big things that is currently splitting the PM community right down the middle, and while 3.6 beta has a lot of great aspects, I honestly think the PM Devs dropped the ball on this one by stirring up this controversy in the first place.

That said, I did notice that many people who support the use of Auto-LC seem to think that the button input is completely unnecessary complexity that has no decision-making input. While it is true that there is no decision being made with this tech, I don't think the role of L-cancelling in the competitive scene is to necessarily have that decision-making option. Someone on Reddit had a pretty decent analogy for L-cancelling that I think puts it a bit more into perspective:

"In basketball, you need to dribble from one side of the court to the other even though the main point of the game is to send the ball through a hoop. Saying that L-cancelling should go is similar to saying that basketball should be each player taking the ball from one side of the court to the other in their hands. Dribbling forces pressure and makes you able to lose the ball."

While it is not a perfect analogy, I feel that it still makes a good point. The window for error is larger and it gives the defending player more of a chance to find an opening to disengage offensive pressure or otherwise have more of an opportunity to punish. So L-cancelling doesn't exist to help the attacking player, it is there to offer more potential for error, very similar to having to dribble the basketball while you are moving across the court.

Again, not taking sides here. Just thought it would be useful to point out how L-cancels actually influence competitive gameplay rather than being merely a redundant complexity.

 

[Kurri ★]

To preface my comment: I started on PM and switched to Melee, but I'm not for or against having Auto-LC on for tournaments. I actually think the PM Devs should make a call on if L-cancelling is in the game or not, instead of this halfway option which either: (1) allows people to practice with an option that may not be legal in tournaments which makes them more unprepared than they normally would be or (2) if it is legal in tournaments, it nullifies the practice that non Auto-LC players do with regard to L-cancelling in mid-combo or shield-pressure situations, essentially wasting their time entirely. This is one of the big things that is currently splitting the PM community right down the middle, and while 3.6 beta has a lot of great aspects, I honestly think the PM Devs dropped the ball on this one by stirring up this controversy in the first place.

That said, I did notice that many people who support the use of Auto-LC seem to think that the button input is completely unnecessary complexity that has no decision-making input. While it is true that there is no decision being made with this tech, I don't think the role of L-cancelling in the competitive scene is to necessarily have that decision-making option. Someone on Reddit had a pretty decent analogy for L-cancelling that I think puts it a bit more into perspective:

"In basketball, you need to dribble from one side of the court to the other even though the main point of the game is to send the ball through a hoop. Saying that L-cancelling should go is similar to saying that basketball should be each player taking the ball from one side of the court to the other in their hands. Dribbling forces pressure and makes you able to lose the ball."

While it is not a perfect analogy, I feel that it still makes a good point. The window for error is larger and it gives the defending player more of a chance to find an opening to disengage offensive pressure or otherwise have more of an opportunity to punish. So L-cancelling doesn't exist to help the attacking player, it is there to offer more potential for error, very similar to having to dribble the basketball while you are moving across the court.

Again, not taking sides here. Just thought it would be useful to point out how L-cancels actually influence competitive gameplay rather than being merely a redundant complexity.

I called it, someone was going to make the basketball analogy.

Now here's the problem with that analogy. There are options in how you dribble, some options are safer than others but yield a lower reward, whereas others are riskier, but lead to higher rewards. Furthermore, dribbling is a fundamental in Basketball, taking that out changes the entire game, whereas taking out L-Cancel doesn't.

And what do you mean by nullifies the practice, if anything it makes it easier for them, because that's one less thing they have to focus on. If removing L-Cancel someway, somehow affects your play negatively, you probably weren't a good player in the first place and should work up on your fundamentals rather than advanced technique.

I think the analogy after Basketball is Volleyball, and then after that it's Food. I had a friend argue L-Cancel is like Food.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I wonder. if a missed L cancel tripped you instead of having landing lag, would the competitive scene be deeper?

trying to understand the whole 'it adds depth because it adds a punish opportutiny when your opponent fails'.

 

[Skimchee]

I called it, someone was going to make the basketball analogy.

Now here's the problem with that analogy. There are options in how you dribble, some options are safer than others but yield a lower reward, whereas others are riskier, but lead to higher rewards. Furthermore, dribbling is a fundamental in Basketball, taking that out changes the entire game, whereas taking out L-Cancel doesn't.

And what do you mean by nullifies the practice, if anything it makes it easier for them, because that's one less thing they have to focus on. If removing L-Cancel someway, somehow affects your play negatively, you probably weren't a good player in the first place and should work up on your fundamentals rather than advanced technique.

I think the analogy after Basketball is Volleyball, and then after that it's Food. I had a friend argue L-Cancel is like Food.

Well I did explicitly say that I didn't think the basketball analogy was perfect, try to bear with me here instead of swatting an opinion away because it doesn't agree with your own...

By saying that "it nullifies their practice," I mean the time they spend outside of Auto-LC mode specifically practicing their L-cancel gameplay is wasted...like they didn't need to practice their pressure game at all for whatever tournament they were going to and instead could have focused on practicing other aspects of their gameplay (DACUS, wavedashing, etc). But again, this is more just arguing about the new ambiguity of whether Auto-LC is widely accepted as a legality or if it is banned (aside from doing a gentleman's agreement). Again, I am not using this argument to say it shouldn't be legal, just trying to say that every tournament is going to disappoint one of the two sides and there is no way to avoid that.

Anyway, I really do not care if Auto-LC is widely accepted or not. I just thought I'd give some food for thought/discussion.

 

[Nausicaa]

This is really gonna help with me and my buddy playing netplay. Our computers aren't that great and the connection isn't always very solid, so this will be a great feature to turn on for that.

I'd love to see a PM tournament with auto-L cancelling turned on. Then we could finally see that it wouldn't actually affect things all that much. Hell, you could bring your more casual friends to it! They'd certainly feel better playing, even though they would of course get their ***** kicked.

For sure to the first part.

2nd part, I'd love to see that too.
Though when it comes to top-end play, if it were between a bunch of very solid players, I wouldn't have it on.

I only ever played 1 set against PP in Melee, and won simply by messing up his L-Cancel due to doing a quick Dash > Shield on wake up as he tried N-Airing me. This allowed me to get the punish that ended the set.

L-Cancelling isn't much for 'skill-ceiling' etc, but it's NOT EASY despite how arbitrary it might seem.
Even Mango has repeatedly stated quite bluntly that L-Cancelling is freaking hard. Given so many variables and speeds and anticipatory and reactive things in this game all mixed together, this simple trigger plays a BIG role when it comes to 'precision' with the game.
AKA, fine-tuned attention to detail while performing actions and adapting accordingly in the flow of play.

BUT

This feature is incredible for newer players. It's one of the most fundamental things to apply yet utterly OBNOXIOUS IN ALL POSSIBLE WAYS when it's not something a player is accustomed to and precise with.
No different than Pivots, Wavedashes, anything of that nature.
People have a harder time using early/mid/late aerials on Short-Hops than they do with L-Cancelling usually.

What this allows, is that players learning the game, or testing complicated maneuvers while not extremely precise yet, etc, can actually practice OTHER FUNDAMENTAL STUFF without the need of getting this redundancy out of the way to do it.
AKA, they can land an aerial and follow up with a dash to practice comboing and pacing and other maneuvers in neutral etc, BEFORE they get the technical silliness out of the way.

Eventually, when they can LC well, they're ALREADY able to do what they need to do, rather than AFTER.

That is all.

That said i like the option. and perhaps it could be used under gentlemans agreement

This^ has been mentioned a few times.
Totally good.

Tl;dr, this

More options are always good.
Rulesets are given to the sovereignty of TOs.
There is no splintering to be worried about.

In short, I'd play with this feature on all the time, while people I was playing with/around weren't in tournament setting OR were in tournament setting but it wasn't with players my level or better.
Obviously they can practice L-Cancelling WITH THIS ON so that's great.
Then, when things actually count, it can be switched back off accordingly.
Simple as that.

 

[Rawkobo]

Well I did explicitly say that I didn't think the basketball analogy was perfect, try to bear with me here instead of swatting an opinion away because it doesn't agree with your own...

By saying that "it nullifies their practice," I mean the time they spend outside of Auto-LC mode specifically practicing their L-cancel gameplay is wasted...like they didn't need to practice their pressure game at all for whatever tournament they were going to and instead could have focused on practicing other aspects of their gameplay (DACUS, wavedashing, etc). But again, this is more just arguing about the new ambiguity of whether Auto-LC is widely accepted as a legality or if it is banned (aside from doing a gentleman's agreement). Again, I am not using this argument to say it shouldn't be legal, just trying to say that every tournament is going to disappoint one of the two sides and there is no way to avoid that.

Anyway, I really do not care if Auto-LC is widely accepted or not. I just thought I'd give some food for thought/discussion.

Except it was already established, waaay back when the toggle was explained, that it changes nothing for those who practiced it already. They can still do the press if it's committed to memory. Nothing was wasted if there's no difference between pressing the button or not, because it'll still act the same.

If we're going to use bad analogies, here's one for something I just explained: Say you buy a game at a store you wanted. You play it, you like it a lot, and you keep playing it. Then, within the next week or so, it goes on sale for half price. Do you feel like your time was wasted because you didn't pay half price for the game, but full price, even though you liked it and played it to your heart's content? If you truly put in that effort and you still get to play and enjoy the same game, then it really should not matter. If it matters, then you have to re-evaluate what you thought actually mattered when you bought the game at the time that you did.

Likewise, if you think you wasted your time learning an input that still works the same way even with the toggle on, then you have to re-evaluate what learning the "tech" meant to you.

If you're trying to say that it's up to TO's, which is something we all agreed on regardless of position on L-cancelling, you could've just said that and had a response of "yeah we know" because it was already talked about several pages ago. You didn't have to provide a flimsy argument everyone's already seen a thousand times.

 

[Kurri ★]

Well I did explicitly say that I didn't think the basketball analogy was perfect, try to bear with me here instead of swatting an opinion away because it doesn't agree with your own...

By saying that "it nullifies their practice," I mean the time they spend outside of Auto-LC mode specifically practicing their L-cancel gameplay is wasted...like they didn't need to practice their pressure game at all for whatever tournament they were going to and instead could have focused on practicing other aspects of their gameplay (DACUS, wavedashing, etc). But again, this is more just arguing about the new ambiguity of whether Auto-LC is widely accepted as a legality or if it is banned (aside from doing a gentleman's agreement). Again, I am not using this argument to say it shouldn't be legal, just trying to say that every tournament is going to disappoint one of the two sides and there is no way to avoid that.

Anyway, I really do not care if Auto-LC is widely accepted or not. I just thought I'd give some food for thought/discussion.

if it's not perfect, then don't use it, or expect someone to combat and be prepared to defend it.

I don't think I'm understanding your problem. Why would someone be disappointed that something they practiced isn't needed anymore if everything else they should've been practicing still is? And if they do get disappointed, why were they at a Auto-LC tournament anyways? I'm not going to go to a USFIV tournament and complain that I wasn't able to L-Cancel.

 

[SunJester]

I really think people should be punished for making a bad choice. Not for missing an L-cancel.

 

[Sieghart]

I don't really get why people bother to argue for L-Cancelling. The only good reason I've seen given in all my time is because melee, to which I say okay and will go on to continue playing as I always have. I see someone used the basketball analogy, which made no sense to me when I first learned about the game and didn't know anything of it. Still doesn't make any sense now.

Someone above me said something about how they got a punish because PP missed an L-cancel and won the set which I find odd. The point people are making is that there is no point in time, aside from extremely infrequent instances like G&Ws dair as people mentioned, where you would not want to be L-canceling. There are a billion times when you'd want to not wavedash or JC shine or DACUS etc. etc. and there is a very visible element of choice in the matter.

PP missing that one L-cancel was an unfortunate tech error that should not have happened. He was not punished because you were smarter than him. He was not punished because you knew more or you had this amazing set-up on him and you worked really hard or any number of completely understandable pillars of high level competitive play that hold up the beautiful skill ceiling that both Melee and PM have. It happened because he screwed up an input that he had no business screwing up in the first place. To be fair, it was a high pressure situation and it's an understandable mistake given said circumstances but it shouldn't have happened.

If you want to look at a cancel mechanic with real undeniable depth look at the video linked earlier of the Roman Cancel in Guilty Gear. Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocFBgZz8278 .That, my friend, is a thing of beauty completely worth its addition and cannot be considered an arbitrary addition to the skill floor in the least.

One way I find helps people understand situations like these is a simple exercise that points out the problem here starts by imagining the factor was never there to begin with. Imagine that L-cancelling wasn't a factor in PM. The unspoken assumption here is that landing lag was naturally half that of Melee's. Now try to construct an argument to double landing lag so that you can bring back L-cancelling just to halve it. Can you? I sure as hell can't. At least not without using "because melee" as a crux which I fully support given the game's current state.

I won't be personally using Auto-LC despite how great it is simply because it's not the tournament standard. That doesn't mean I'm naive enough to think L-cancelling was a good addition to either Melee or PM considering the alternatives, though.

 

[Kurri ★]

If you want to look at a cancel mechanic with real undeniable depth look at the video linked earlier of the Roman Cancel in Guilty Gear. Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocFBgZz8278 .That, my friend, is a thing of beauty completely worth its addition and cannot be considered an arbitrary addition to the skill floor in the least.

That's the same video I posted, props! Which reminds me, I should really go practice Xrd, I'm really ass at it.

 

[Skimchee]

Alright gg I see your point

 

[Nausicaa]

Now try to construct an argument to double landing lag so that you can bring back L-cancelling just to halve it. Can you?

If there was no L-Cancelling (or anything of that nature in the game) I would love this.

With HALVED land-lag on aerials in the game here.
Addition = If an aerial hits a shield/projectile/anything OTHER THAN non-targets (whiffs) OR hit-confirmed on a character hurt-box (actual player-controlled units), landing lag with that aerial is DOUBLED.
- Hitting the 'Shield' upon landing is required to reduce the land-lag of that aerial by a THIRD.
Almost like a 'defense against the defense' in a way.

In other words.
Hitting 'things' other than players/no target, is the only situation something should ever actually be a factor. As the only counter-play (AKA, player engagement) that accounts for anything would be the space control and timing of things on the fields (defensive options or position control stuff)
All other L-Cancel timings, in combos and whiffs, as I mentioned in the previous post, are essentially just stupid redundancies in the game.

This would also leave things like 'hitting projectiles' with aerials to get rid of them ACTUALLY be a little bit of a commitment, as there's MORE lag than in today's-game. As well as hitting someone who has actually DONE SOMETHING to defend the encounter (a decision both players make) will be much more beneficial to the player who successfully defended the attack.
^1/3rd land lag even if LC'd rather than 1/2 if LC'd as it is in today's game.

It would change the meta-game in a way with projectile-control and defensive-approaches to the game, but otherwise, every other area L-Cancelling exists is the stuff that should never exist, and if it was never there in Melee/PM, nobody would take a second look.

That's my stand on it, hope that helps you understand where the previous post was coming from.
Random side-note, your interpretation of the 'pp' thing isn't accurate, but completely understandable, and it's not worth going into. Hopefully this post helps a bit, but it doesn't really matter.
Tl;dr, L-Cing is silly, but there's something in the madness worth noting. (hence 'cancels' of sorts are mentioned as options/alternatives to this silliness at all)

 

[mimgrim]

I don't really care about L-canceling one way or another. If it is on, ok fine. If it is off, ok fine. I'll play either way.

I just wanna know when people will start using better analogies for it.

Like, as an example, Gears of War perfect reloading mechanic. In concept it is the same damned thing as L-cancel (just with bigger reward and bigger risk). When you go to reload in the games you get this little bar the shows up in the corner under the ammo hud with a line moving from left to right with a small area of a different shade of color, and an even smaller shaded area, from the full bar and if you press the reload button again when that line hits the shaded area you get a faster reload, and if you hit the even smaller area you get double damage for a short amount of time as well for the ammo amount reloaded, and if you miss it your reload time gets doubled (if you don't do anything it goes normal length). It can be found in Gears of War 1-3 and single player of Judgment (multiplier of Judgment doesn't have it though, and that, among other differences, cause a big fissure among the community, I'd say even worse then Smash tbh lol) and is basically the exact same thing in concept as L-canceling.

If you want to use an analogy at the very least do it right.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I don't really care about L-canceling one way or another. If it is on, ok fine. If it is off, ok fine. I'll play either way.

I just wanna know when people will start using better analogies for it.

It's hard to, because most things as stupid as L-Canceling dont make it past testing teams these days =p

 

[Nausicaa]

Why discuss analogies and semantics of that nature when you can talk about what exists as it is and the possibilities from/around/away/to/etc there?

Edit: Either way, sexy feature this PM thing got here

 

[Mage.]

He meant the duration of the landing hitbox. If a hitbox lasts 2 frames it will only last 1 frame when L canceled.

Yeah, I meant that. Poor choice of words on my part.

Honestly now that I think about it, who really cares at this point? Older players will still likely have the instinct to L-cancel even when it is on so it's not like you'd notice a difference while newer players will now not have to worry about pressing that one button after every aerial. If a TO lets it happen then it happens. If they say no then it doesn't. Not a big deal now that I think about it.

 

[GP&B]

I don't really get this sentiment over thinking practiced players will feel that they've wasted their time. I'm very consistent and I couldn't be bothered if it was removed. Better to make me stay more focused on fundamentals and other actually useful tech if anything.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I don't really get this sentiment over thinking practiced players will feel that they've wasted their time. I'm very consistent and I couldn't be bothered if it was removed. Better to make me stay more focused on fundamentals and other actually useful tech if anything.

The only thing i could understand, is if auto on meant hitting l cancel manual created an adverse effect.
but since it doesn't. there's nothing to complain about having it on.

except the fear of the other person being able to beat you.

and if that's an issue, its not l cancelling that's your problem.

 

[MEnKIRBZ]

What I have loved about smash is that it involves speed with your hands as well as your mind. Getting rid of l-canceling is just one more button that I don't need to press, which means my hands aren't doing as much work and my mind is still the same. I don't like that. The best should be the ones who can do both, who can juggle all the button pressing with the mind games. If you can't, then you can't....Sorry LOL. It's like in any other sport.

Yea l-canceling isn't dribbling, but if someone didn't know how to dribble a basketball, the nba wouldn't be like "we need to remove dribbling because it's just mindless bouncing of the ball with no real strategy involved."

If you can't l-cancel, there's tra- smash4 for you to toy with.

 

[Narpas_sword]

What I have loved about smash is that it involves speed with your hands as well as your mind. Getting rid of l-canceling is just one more button that I don't need to press, which means my hands aren't doing as much work and my mind is still the same. I don't like that. The best should be the ones who can do both, who can juggle all the button pressing with the mind games. If you can't, then you can't....Sorry LOL. It's like in any other sport.

Yea l-canceling isn't dribbling, but if someone didn't know how to dribble a basketball, the nba wouldn't be like "we need to remove dribbling because it's just mindless bouncing of the ball with no real strategy involved."

If you can't l-cancel, there's tra- smash4 for you to toy with.

so it would improve the smash experience for you if you had to press L at other random times too? say, every time you throw, you had to press a direction + L. otherwise the opponendt would break out and you would get punished.

 

[mimgrim]

It's hard to, because most things as stupid as L-Canceling dont make it past testing teams these days =p

And I was able to provide the perfect example/analogy that should be used of a game series that is fairly and has had its own drama in regards to said mechanic (so much so that there is basically a split between Gears of War 3 and Gears of War Judgment, Judgment is the most recent while there are people who want to stick to GoW3. Granted there are a lot of other changes in Judgment that also contribute to the split in the community, but perfect reload is one of the big ones).

I really don't care one way or another. I just wish that if people insist on using analogies then they should at least use one that actually works (like perfect reloading in the Gears of War games, of which comparing video game to video game makes hella more sense then to a sport tbh).

 

[Bleck]

I don't like that.

who cares

 

[Kurri ★]

What I have loved about smash is that it involves speed with your hands as well as your mind. Getting rid of l-canceling is just one more button that I don't need to press, which means my hands aren't doing as much work and my mind is still the same. I don't like that. The best should be the ones who can do both, who can juggle all the button pressing with the mind games. If you can't, then you can't....Sorry LOL. It's like in any other sport.

Yea l-canceling isn't dribbling, but if someone didn't know how to dribble a basketball, the nba wouldn't be like "we need to remove dribbling because it's just mindless bouncing of the ball with no real strategy involved."

If you can't l-cancel, there's tra- smash4 for you to toy with.

Boy this dumbest thing I've read today... Good thing the day just started. Like what @ Narpas_sword said, would it be better if you had to input a QCF + A for the first jab, a HCF + A for the second, then a DP + A for the third and every one after that?

The thing about Dribbling is that it's a basic fundamental of the game, removing it changes how the game is played entirely, furthermore it's not mindless. Removing L-Cancel doesn't have as drastic effect.

I'm glad you enjoy moving your hands really fast, perhaps you should move on to Starcraft, I hear having a really high apm is beneficial.

 

[Rawkobo]

What I have loved about smash is that it involves speed with your hands as well as your mind. Getting rid of l-canceling is just one more button that I don't need to press, which means my hands aren't doing as much work and my mind is still the same. I don't like that. The best should be the ones who can do both, who can juggle all the button pressing with the mind games. If you can't, then you can't....Sorry LOL. It's like in any other sport.

Yea l-canceling isn't dribbling, but if someone didn't know how to dribble a basketball, the nba wouldn't be like "we need to remove dribbling because it's just mindless bouncing of the ball with no real strategy involved."

If you can't l-cancel, there's tra- smash4 for you to toy with.

Somebody missed the memo here. The auto-L-cancel feature doesn't get rid of L-cancelling. It makes it so that the input is trivial but you can still do it in the first place. Like, ffs, now these arguments are just assuming we're talking about X thing and trying to claim that X thing is bad when the details that would explain why we aren't talking about X thing are on the first couple pages.

...suddenly i realize when i posted in one of these threads i didn't read either

god i now know the suffering of others

 

[Vigihes]

All right guys, I have a new idea. Let's introduce a mechanic wich forces you to press the combination of L B Z R every time you down-smash, if you miss it you get a lag and your opponent can punish you. This makes the game faster and your hands are doing more things !

 

[MEnKIRBZ]

Somebody missed the memo here. The auto-L-cancel feature doesn't get rid of L-cancelling. It makes it so that the input is trivial but you can still do it in the first place. Like, ffs, now these arguments are just assuming we're talking about X thing and trying to claim that X thing is bad when the details that would explain why we aren't talking about X thing are on the first couple pages.

...suddenly i realize when i posted in one of these threads i didn't read either

god i now know the suffering of others

Lol u all don't even understand, probably cuz u came from smash4. Removing a button press is 1 less thing I have to do with my hands. I didn't say I want lcanceled moves back becuz they are still here.

Adding buttons is a terrible argument against mine, considering that I'm not arguing for pmdt to add more buttons LOL, so please stop thinking you're so clever.

And while we are on the subject, why not remove teching as well? It is basically jjust buttons u press when timed correctly right? I shouldn't be punished for mistiming a few button inputs, I should be punished for my play right? Just hold which direction u want to roll when u land and everything will be fine ( hold down for inplace)

No.

Let me also note that you can l-canceloves at different times ( slower aerials like capts. Knee and ganon and Mario's fair, etc.) To avoid shield-grabs and punishment opportunities.

Lastly, if u can't do it, smash4 is for U
(Typed this on my phone, soso there might be spelling errors)

 

[xXSciophobiaXx]

My opinion is in line with some others, I think there needs to be some risk involved in L-cancelling, but it need be minor to preserve how PM plays.

My best solution I can think of after reading like 2 pages of this (and having thought about previous l-cancel discussions) is:

Risk-Reward L-canceling

I think current L-cancelled landing lag times should stay the same. Rather than double missed L-cancel landing lag frames, I believe they should increase less substantially, ie if L-cancel is 50 frames, "missed" L-cancel is 75 frames, so something like 50% increase in landing lag frames for missed l-cancel.

Now the risk to L-cancelling would be something around a 5% bonus damage penalty (maybe 1% for projectiles?) to punishes that hit the player who is L-cancelling during landing endlag:

thus a poorly spaced L-cancelled aerial on shield runs the risk of giving a shield-grab, or OoS option some bonus damage. Thus, if you've mis-spaced your aerial, don't L-cancel, you would take extra damage if your opponent has a decent counter- attack. Do L-cancel and if it was misspaced, you will now take bonus damage on the punish.

I'll admit this idea doesn't have tons of kinks worked out, but I imagine that for missed and landed l-cancels, narrowing the window would make it a reasonable choice to elect not to L-cancel some aerials if mis-spaced.

-I feel like shine would be getting a serious damage buff, so there might have to be a workaround for shine OoS.
-I also wonder if the bonus damage taken upon l-cancelling would have to last like 4-5? 7-8? frames after L-cancelling completes as most moves afaik are not punished while in L-cancel landing lag.

edit: I was also thinking, as some characters have poor OoS options, and would have difficulty achieving L-cancel punishes, one could tweak the % that a character deals to an L-canceled opponent. Ie falco and fox do 2% damage to an L-canceller upon punish, but ROB does 5%, as afaik he doesn't have a good OoS option.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

The option of Auto L Canceling is just an objectively good decision. It's not like you have to turn it on, and if you do, it removes one of the biggest turnoffs for causal players.

Spoiler

Nicely done, PM devs.

 

[MEnKIRBZ]

All right guys, I have a new idea. Let's introduce a mechanic wich forces you to press the combination of L B Z R every time you down-smash, if you miss it you get a lag and your opponent can punish you. This makes the game faster and your hands are doing more things !

Ah yes we should call this the butthurt argument. No1 is asking to add buttons, we are saying not to remove a button use that involves proper timing. Tons of people can l-cancel, so please please stop making it seem like we are asking for people to do something that is close to impossible to do LOL. Go back to tr4sh

 

[Rawkobo]

Lol u all don't even understand, probably cuz u came from smash4. Removing a button press is 1 less thing I have to do with my hands. I didn't say I want lcanceled moves back becuz they are still here.

Adding buttons is a terrible argument against mine, considering that I'm not arguing for pmdt to add more buttons LOL, so please stop thinking you're so clever.

And while we are on the subject, why not remove teching as well? It is basically jjust buttons u press when timed correctly right? I shouldn't be punished for mistiming a few button inputs, I should be punished for my play right? Just hold which direction u want to roll when u land and everything will be fine ( hold down for inplace)

No.

Let me also note that you can l-canceloves at different times ( slower aerials like capts. Knee and ganon and Mario's fair, etc.) To avoid shield-grabs and punishment opportunities.

Lastly, if u can't do it, smash4 is for U
(Typed this on my phone, soso there might be spelling errors)

...So like, let's run through every point in this post.

"Lol u all don't even understand, probably cuz u came from smash4."

I played Melee and Brawl on and off for years and my first competitive grind occurred in Fall 2012 in Project M. Smash 4 didn't exist 3 years ago, so nice try using your first ad hominem to try and thwart the argument.

"Adding buttons is a terrible argument against mine---"

Your original argument is that you liked things to do with your hands. Adding buttons would let you do things with your hands. I don't get how that's insignificant if you were the one to propose such faulty reasoning in the first place.

"And while we are on the subject, why not remove teching as well?"

Because teching and L-cancelling serve incredibly different purposes.

"Let me also note that you can l-canceloves at different times ( slower aerials like capts. Knee and ganon and Mario's fair, etc.) to avoid shield-grabs and punishment opportunities."

Timing and spacing have nothing to do with L-cancelling, so this is a terrible argument as well. I can space an aerial on the shield of many a character in any game, hit or miss my L-cancel, and still not get grabbed, because I spaced it well. If your opponent drops shield because you delay your aerial, that's on them, too. It literally has nothing to do with the cancel.

"Lastly, if u can't do it, smash4 is for U"

More ad hominems. Lay off the insults and actually educate yourself before you start attacking people directly for something you know nothing about.

 

[qwertz143]

Ah yes we should call this the butthurt argument. No1 is asking to add buttons, we are saying not to remove a button use that involves proper timing. Tons of people can l-cancel, so please please stop making it seem like we are asking for people to do something that is close to impossible to do LOL. Go back to tr4sh

MEnKIRBZ he was sarcastic I think. Anyway how does the auto L-cancel affect you. As a fellow kirby main we hardly need to use L-cancel in the first place, his lags are hitboxes
What's wrong with Smash 4 btw? It has way more characters than Project M and is much faster paced than 64.

 

[MEnKIRBZ]

...So like, let's run through every point in this post.

"Lol u all don't even understand, probably cuz u came from smash4."

I played Melee and Brawl on and off for years and my first competitive grind occurred in Fall 2012 in Project M. Smash 4 didn't exist 3 years ago, so nice try using your first ad hominem to try and thwart the argument.

"Adding buttons is a terrible argument against mine---"

Your original argument is that you liked things to do with your hands. Adding buttons would let you do things with your hands. I don't get how that's insignificant if you were the one to propose such faulty reasoning in the first place.

"And while we are on the subject, why not remove teching as well?"

Because teching and L-cancelling serve incredibly different purposes.

"Let me also note that you can l-canceloves at different times ( slower aerials like capts. Knee and ganon and Mario's fair, etc.) to avoid shield-grabs and punishment opportunities."

Timing and spacing have nothing to do with L-cancelling, so this is a terrible argument as well. I can space an aerial on the shield of many a character in any game, hit or miss my L-cancel, and still not get grabbed, because I spaced it well. If your opponent drops shield because you delay your aerial, that's on them, too. It literally has nothing to do with the cancel.

"Lastly, if u can't do it, smash4 is for U"

More ad hominems. Lay off the insults and actually educate yourself before you start attacking people directly for something you know nothing about.

Yea they are different but they still involve the same thing to perform. They both involve timing, pressing l/r, and if missed u get up slower. Someone's argument was u shouldn't get punished for mistiming a button press. People make up ur mind.

Like I said, adding buttons isn't a good argument because I'm not asking for more buttons. Making up things to press as an argument makes it look like l-canceling is near impossible to do, when its not.

My point is that a button press that involves timing with reward isn't useless, and many ppl can do it so quit whining about needing auto-lcancel in tourney. Tons of people can play the game at a high level with l-canceling, so either do it or always be slower.

O and sorry u came from brawl which is worse LOL.

 

[MEnKIRBZ]

Yea they are different but they still involve the same thing to perform. They both involve timing, pressing l/r, and if missed u get up slower. Someone's argument was u shouldn't get punished for mistiming a button press. People make up ur mind.

Like I said, adding buttons isn't a good argument because I'm not asking for more buttons. Making up things to press as an argument makes it look like l-canceling is near impossible to do, when its not.

My point is that a button press that involves timing with reward isn't useless, and many ppl can do it so quit whining about needing auto-lcancel in tourney. Tons of people can play the game at a high level with l-canceling, so either do it or always be slower.

O and sorry u came from brawl which is worse LOL.

Oops replied to my ownpost

 

[Rawkobo]

Yea they are different but they still involve the same thing to perform. They both involve timing, pressing l/r, and if missed u get up slower. Someone's argument was u shouldn't get punished for mistiming a button press. People make up ur mind.

Like I said, adding buttons isn't a good argument because I'm not asking for more buttons. Making up things to press as an argument makes it look like l-canceling is near impossible to do, when its not.

My point is that a button press that involves timing isn't useless, and many ppl can do it so quit whining about needing auto-lcancel in tourney. Tons of people can play the game at a high level with l-canceling, so either do it or always be slower.

O and sorry u came from brawl which is worse LOL.

I already indicated you were asking for things to do with your hands, and that's what people have been proposing, sarcastically, because we don't actually give a damn. If you want to press buttons, play a character that presses buttons in the first place. Fox seems ideal here. Maybe even Falco, the technicality of shine is a lot more significant than something you don't want to miss 100% of the time in the first place with, as previously established throughout this entire thread.

Since you obviously need a refresher on the amount of options that actually matter that you can still do, here's a primer:

- Platform cancelling
- Directional, punishable airdodges
- Wavedashing
- All varieties of grab, including boost grab
- Spacing (or not spacing) moves
- Dashdancing
- And many more that I'm too lazy to list

All of these things have real purposes with actual rewards and drawbacks instead of just being universally drawbacks. You mention in your latest post (because you don't know how to use the edit button, clearly), that "a button press that involves timing with reward isn't useless." You would be right if L-cancelling actually rewarded you in some way, like the proposal @ xXSciophobiaXx suggested. But it doesn't. In any fighting game, there is no mechanic I can potentially think that gives no actual reward but punishes you if you don't do it.

Also, don't start with the argument of "tons of people do it." Tons of people also tech terribly, don't grab the ledge, and make fairly obvious they're going for a grab/aerial against you. Am I supposed to follow their example like it's precedent? No, because those are fundamentals people should get better at, but they're too busy having to learn pointless "tech" for it to matter.

As a final note, if you're going to rag on me for playing Brawl, need I remind you the base game for Project M is Brawl in the first place, so I was very accustomed to the cast when I started learning everything that I did. L-cancelling was not hard for me, but that doesn't make it not trivial. It requires a considerable amount of practice with no net gains, whereas when I first learned to space better, my results became exponentially better by proxy. So I, for one, should know the significance and value of L-cancelling.

 

[MEnKIRBZ]

Maybe u should watch the smash documentary because it seems like it has a net gain to me.

Also, I'm on my phone so don't assume misclicking is the same thing as not knowing how to use the forums. Now look who is using an ad hominem.

Maybe I should be more clear. Top level players can use lcanceling just fine and still play well. Tons of people can do it, its not hard LOL get over it

 

[Rawkobo]

Maybe u should watch the smash documentary because it seems like it has a net gain to me.

Also, I'm on my phone so don't assume misclicking is the same thing as not knowing how to use the forums. Now look who is using an ad hominem.

Maybe I should be more clear. Top level players can use lcanceling just fine and still play well. Tons of people can do it, its not hard LOL get over it

Sorry, you're right, I shouldn't stoop to your level. I'll avoid doing that in the future.

Now, where were we?

"Maybe u should watch the smash documentary because it seems like it has a net gain to me."

Oh, you mean the Melee documentary. It's a good watch, but it's not the Smash documentary. People assume a lot based on the title and not the actual content itself. You'll note that most of the documentary has to do with the history of players and eras in Melee and no other Smash game because of how the content of the documentary was slated. It's not a Smash documentary in the slightest because the community is in no way united over this, nor are they united overall.

"Maybe I should be more clear. *repeats previous statement with the same issues and flaws as the last two posts* LOL get over it"

I'll let you reread my argument as to why this claim is pointless, since we're starting to loop ourselves again.

 

[MEnKIRBZ]

Tons of people also play properly..it goes both ways LOL nice argument. Ha not


Maybe I could go the route where lcanceling seperates the men from the boys (or women from girls). You're looking about 6 or 7 right now little boy. There's an ad hominem for ya.

Now pull up ur bigboy pants, stop whining, and just press the button.

 

[qwertz143]

This thread is cancer haha