Automatic L-Cancelling Discussion

[Mean Green]

I always kind of wondered what purpose L canceling served. Competitive games are about making choices and L canceling isn't a choice. It's just an extra button press that always yields a better result than not pressing it. All it does is make the game less accessable without increasing competitive depth.

None of the combos and punish extensions that suddenly became possible when L-cancelling became a part of other Smashes' metas counts as competitve depth huh? I don't really care about the future of competitive PM, but I don't agree with the point you were trying to make.

 

[xquqx]

None of the combos and punish extensions that suddenly became possible when L-cancelling became a part of other Smashes' metas counts as competitve depth huh? I don't really care about the future of competitive PM, but I don't agree with the point you were trying to make.

Those combos and punish extensions were the result of lowered landing lag, not having to press a button to lower the landing lag. If the landing lag was just cut in half across the board and l cancelling didn't exist, competitive melee would have those exact same punishes and combos without any arbitrary button presses.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

I'm not sure what other people have said, but I turn on auto LC when inexperienced/less technical friends play which hasn't affected my gameplay at all. I press L either way, hell I press L in smash4. I am very consistant with L canceling so it shouldn't really make a different unless you do it for extended periods of time.

 

[Kurri ★]

hell I press L in smash4.

You might wanna stop that... It could actually detrimental as landing during airdodge increases landing lag. Or so I heard at least.

None of the combos and punish extensions that suddenly became possible when L-cancelling became a part of other Smashes' metas counts as competitve depth huh? I don't really care about the future of competitive PM, but I don't agree with the point you were trying to make.

Well you didn't get the point they were trying to make anyways.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

I'm not sure what other people have said, but I turn on auto LC when inexperienced/less technical friends play which hasn't affected my gameplay at all. I press L either way, hell I press L in smash4. I am very consistant with L canceling so it shouldn't really make a different unless you do it for extended periods of time.

You might wanna stop that... It could actually detrimental as landing during airdodge increases landing lag. Or so I heard at least.


Well you didn't get the point they were trying to make anyways.

I should, but I play smash4 for fun, and PM for Hype.

 

[Manaconda]

So many people think L-Cancelling is way more mindless than it actually is.

 

[Mean Green]

You might wanna stop that... It could actually detrimental as landing during airdodge increases landing lag. Or so I heard at least.


Well you didn't get the point they were trying to make anyways.

People who reply like you do annoy me. Enlighten me then.

 

[Narpas_sword]

JFC people who reply like you do piss me off. Enlighten me then.

you countered his point with something that didnt really make sense.

he had said that manual l canceling doesnt increase competitive depth.
you countered with 'punish extensions that become possible with l canceling create depth'

but you're not accounting for the fact those extensions would exist with automatic 'l-canceling'

manually doing it doesn't add depth, it raises the skill floor by adding in a button.

 

[Kurri ★]

I should, but I play smash4 for fun, and PM for Hype.

That's fair then.

So many people think L-Cancelling is way more mindless than it actually is.

Well that's because it isn't mindless. You do have to have good timing and rhythm to do it. The problem is that it lacks actual depth. it's an option that you'll want to do 100% of the time as there is literally no reason not to L-Cancel. Which is why automatic L-Cancel is a blessing to many because it removes that arbitrary skill barrier.

JFC people who reply like you do piss me off. Enlighten me then.

Next time say please.

L-Cancel is "great" because of the options it opens up, but the same effect could be had if landing lag in general was decreased. Furthermore, as I said above, L-Cancel is an option that isn't really an option.

 

[himemiya]

So we're now catering to people that give up on getting good and never bothers learning fundamentals?

 

[Narpas_sword]

So we're now catering to people that give up on getting good and never bothers learning fundamentals?

l cancelling is not a fundamental.

 

[himemiya]

l cancelling is not a fundamental.

tech-skillz*

 

[Narpas_sword]

tech-skillz*

its not really a skill either.

its an extra button press just because.

imagine if PMTD went the other way, and now to L cancel, you have to hit L and R at the same time.
would that be better? would that create more depth? and skill?

 

[Kurri ★]

its not really a skill either.

its an extra button press just because.

imagine if PMTD went the other way, and now to L cancel, you have to hit L and R at the same time.
would that be better? would that create more depth? and skill?

It's a skill, just a flawed one...

 

[Mean Green]

you countered his point with something that didnt really make sense.

he had said that manual l canceling doesnt increase competitive depth.
you countered with 'punish extensions that become possible with l canceling create depth'

but you're not accounting for the fact those extensions would exist with automatic 'l-canceling'

manually doing it doesn't add depth, it raises the skill floor by adding in a button.

Eh you're right I guess. Although I think of lag canceling as a bonus feature when I play Smash, I don't really look at like "we shouldn't have the landing lag to begin with".

 

[Narpas_sword]

yea, thats why i went with 'not really a skill'

 

[himemiya]

its not really a skill either.

its an extra button press just because.

imagine if PMTD went the other way, and now to L cancel, you have to hit L and R at the same time.
would that be better? would that create more depth? and skill?

That would change the meta a bit. Going from manual to manual w/ clutch.

 

[Kurri ★]

That would change the meta a bit. Going from manual to manual w/ clutch.

If it does, I'm certain it will be minimal.

 

[Narpas_sword]

That would change the meta a bit. Going from manual to manual w/ clutch.

it wouldnt change the meta at all.
youd just have to press another button.

same as if you had to l cancel falcos blasters.

 

[himemiya]

same as if you had to l cancel falcos blasters.

Pmbr are you reading this?

 

[Rawkobo]

oh boy this thread again i wonder how long it'll be until this has to get locked due to logic loops and pointless bickering

I'm glad this got implemented and I'm thinking about fooling around with it a bit, specifically because if the consensus eventually becomes that this is permanently on at tournaments, then it allows PM to be its own game even more, which is an interesting proposal in my head.

yes i'm aware last time i posted in a thread like this i was skeptical, but things change when you suddenly realize that melee entitlement can get on your nerves

 

[4tlas]

I don't think that's correct.

got an example?

G&W dair, the key has a landing hitbox if you don't l-cancel and none if you do.

 

[Narpas_sword]

G&W dair, the key has a landing hitbox if you don't l-cancel and none if you do.

thanks, standardtoaster cleared that up already =)

though he said halvs the duration.

still im not sure if having more lag but a slightly longer hitbox is a good thing?

 

[4tlas]

thanks, standardtoaster cleared that up already =)

though he said halvs the duration.

still im not sure if having more lag but a slightly longer hitbox is a good thing?

Well I know no hitbox appears if you L-cancel it. Like none. Not half duration anything, just none.

 

[Narpas_sword]

i tired to look on dolphin, but couldnt frame advance. will have a look on wii later =)

 

[Azurie]

As someone that has always struggled to get a hold of L-canceling, I definitely like the idea of this toggle. And while playing it definitely felt great. However, after an hour or so of playing with it on, we all decided to change back to normal mode. We couldn't shake the feeling that we'd just be hurting our own skills in the long run, knowing that this would probably never be the standard.

This led me to wonder who exactly this mode is for. Is it to get new people into the game? Because that seems like it'd be inviting them in under false pretenses of what the game was really about. Is it to pacify all the people that fiercely argue for auto l-canceling? Because that seems like it could fracture the community. Or... is it to test the waters for something that could possibly become the standard. Because that would be awesome. :-P

 

[Jaedrik]

WOWWW GUYS STOP BEING SO RUDE
D:
WHY CAN'T YOU ALL ACT CIVIL AND STOP BEING JERKERINO MAXIMUS' TO EACH-OTHER???

 

[Vigihes]

That arbitrary button press is the only reason PM and Melee are as fast as they are. They provide a suitable mix of low landing lag and high landing lag that allows for fast-paced mental interaction and technical play.

Providing one without the other leads to slowness.

We should more talk about this because it is in my opinion the only good argument against auto L-canceling. If I understood you, this mix could make a safe action become an opportunity for the opponent if the L cancel is missed, and then make the game go on. But I don't agree because I think there is always bad decisions to replace skill fails in this case, isn't it ? Again, sorry for my english ^^'

 

[Quillion]

We should more talk about this because it is in my opinion the only good argument against auto L-canceling. If I understood you, this mix could make a safe action become an opportunity for the opponent if the L cancel is missed, and then make the game go on. But I don't agree because I think there is always bad decisions to replace skill fails in this case, isn't it ? Again, sorry for my english ^^'

Problem with that is that bad decisions have barely any punishment because landing lag is so small that there's no way to capitalize on mistakes. This leads to overly safe play.

But on the other hand, higher landing lag means that there is no way to have the elaborate damage-dealing and finishing combos that Melee and PM (or at least the Fragile Speedsters) are known for. This leads to overly safe play.

I want to challenge everyone who likes this minority-pandering BS: is there ANY OTHER WAY to have both elaborate combos while having a fair amount of opportunity to punish? NO!

 

[4tlas]

Problem with that is that bad decisions have barely any punishment because landing lag is so small that there's no way to capitalize on mistakes. This leads to overly safe play.

But on the other hand, higher landing lag means that there is no way to have the elaborate damage-dealing and finishing combos that Melee and PM (or at least the Fragile Speedsters) are known for. This leads to overly safe play.

I want to challenge everyone who likes this minority-pandering BS: is there ANY OTHER WAY to have both elaborate combos while having a fair amount of opportunity to punish? NO!

You say landing lag is too low to capitalize on poor decisions, but that assumes you are using aerials which are guaranteed to trade (no shield or clanking), lead to easy juggles (anti-airs typically hit upward), and may leave you without a jump (if you use your double jump which is your only movement mixup once you enter the air). There are plenty of risks involved with going into the air that can be punished if they are poor decisions, the landing lag has nothing to do with it.

 

[Kurri ★]

Problem with that is that bad decisions have barely any punishment because landing lag is so small that there's no way to capitalize on mistakes. This leads to overly safe play.

But on the other hand, higher landing lag means that there is no way to have the elaborate damage-dealing and finishing combos that Melee and PM (or at least the Fragile Speedsters) are known for. This leads to overly safe play.

I want to challenge everyone who likes this minority-pandering BS: is there ANY OTHER WAY to have both elaborate combos while having a fair amount of opportunity to punish? NO!

Allow me to humor you with a story.

Fox throws out an aerial, Marth shields it then retaliates. That was not a safe attack Fox.
Landin lag had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Besides, how do you think other fighting games deal with it?

 

[4tlas]

Allow me to humor you with a story.

Fox throws out an aerial, Marth shields it then retaliates. That was not a safe attack Fox.
Landin lag had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Besides, how do you think other fighting games deal with it?

Well Fox has a move fast enough that those few frames of landing lag from the missed L-cancel would make a difference, but yes most things that aren't safe on shield (why is Fox so safe on shield??) don't care about the L-cancel or not. The L-cancel just lets them do combos, so it might as well be automatic.

And as for other fighting games, it could be argued that this is something Smash does better than other fighters. I'm not one to argue it, but just because it "works" in other fighters doesn't mean Smash doesn't "work better" by having L-cancelling.

 

[Kurri ★]

Well Fox has a move fast enough that those few frames of landing lag from the missed L-cancel would make a difference, but yes most things that aren't safe on shield (why is Fox so safe on shield??) don't care about the L-cancel or not. The L-cancel just lets them do combos, so it might as well be automatic.

And as for other fighting games, it could be argued that this is something Smash does better than other fighters. I'm not one to argue it, but just because it "works" in other fighters doesn't mean Smash doesn't "work better" by having L-cancelling.

Well I used Fox as an example, but thanks for pointing that out.

 

[SunJester]

If you want to attract new players to this game, lowering the skill floor is one of the best ways to get them to try it out. The fact that someone's muscle memory isn't punished by having this on is the hugest plus to this mode. There's literally no drawbacks to having it on.

If you're worried about some "scrub" beating you due to auto L-cancelling being on, chances are you're not very good at this game in the first place.

 

[Rawkobo]

If you want to attract new players to this game, lowering the skill floor is one of the best ways to get them to try it out. The fact that someone's muscle memory isn't punished by having this on is the hugest plus to this mode. There's literally no drawbacks to having it on.

If you're worried about some "scrub" beating you due to auto L-cancelling being on, chances are you're not very good at this game in the first place.

This immensely.

I currently don't think when I L-cancel. It's a muscle memory. Whether or not it stays existent is not what matters to me. What matters to me is when I get slammed in the face by, say, Bowser f-smash, that it's my fault for not spacing. In fact, most problems that I can think of players having in the first place aren't even technical barriers, they're fundamentals-based.

The fact that auto L-cancel can make the technical barriers not as much the focus, but still maintain the faster pace of the game, is a well-thought-out idea to me. It's what Rivals of Aether, a game that Smashboards has backed, is doing to a degree, and it's interesting to think about what would happen if PM did the same by allowing this switch on for tournaments.

 

[Vigihes]

Problem with that is that bad decisions have barely any punishment because landing lag is so small that there's no way to capitalize on mistakes. This leads to overly safe play.

You're only talking about aerial attacks but I was thinking about every bad decision, many of them are punishable. Auto L-cancel will only remove one opportunity to punish the opponent in the game... This wont make everybody play safely.
I prefer punishments after bad decisions than technical fails.

 

[Quillion]

This immensely.

I currently don't think when I L-cancel. It's a muscle memory. Whether or not it stays existent is not what matters to me. What matters to me is when I get slammed in the face by, say, Bowser f-smash, that it's my fault for not spacing. In fact, most problems that I can think of players having in the first place aren't even technical barriers, they're fundamentals-based.

The fact that auto L-cancel can make the technical barriers not as much the focus, but still maintain the faster pace of the game, is a well-thought-out idea to me. It's what Rivals of Aether, a game that Smashboards has backed, is doing to a degree, and it's interesting to think about what would happen if PM did the same by allowing this switch on for tournaments.

I ALREADY SAID that low landing lag leads exactly to the same conclusion as high landing lag (Brawl & Smash U). Technicality is one of the only reasons PM and Melee don't fall into the same traps as those two smashes do.

 

[Kurri ★]

I ALREADY SAID that low landing lag leads exactly to the same conclusion as high landing lag (Brawl & Smash U). Technicality is one of the only reasons PM and Melee don't fall into the same traps as those two smashes do.

You said that, but no one believes it.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I ALREADY SAID that low landing lag leads exactly to the same conclusion as high landing lag (Brawl & Smash U). Technicality is one of the only reasons PM and Melee don't fall into the same traps as those two smashes do.

technicality is different to 'press L before you land because simon sakurai says'.

would you think the game would be better and more technical if you had to hit L to land cancel blasters?
or to jump cancel shines?
or to Platform Cancel Missiles?

adding a button press doesn't create technicality. it creates artificial difficulty and forms a higher skill floor. meaning new players have a hard time.

Top players wont notice a difference (other than newer player improving, and that cant be bad, more competition the better, as it advances the meta)

 

[Rawkobo]

I ALREADY SAID that low landing lag leads exactly to the same conclusion as high landing lag (Brawl & Smash U). Technicality is one of the only reasons PM and Melee don't fall into the same traps as those two smashes do.

The funny thing about this argument (which you're doing a very bad job of explaining, by the way) is that there's nothing technical about L-cancelling in the first place. There are technical things about wavedashes, dashdancing, platform cancelling, etc. Remember that the pitfalls of Brawl and Smash 4 are movement related and recovery related, which L-cancelling has nothing to do with either.