Australian Dedede Stage Ban Ruling - Do we have a set methodology?

[Vyse]

Lets take Melbourne's ruleset for example:

*Normal Melbourne Stage Ruleset*
Battlefield
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza (D)
Luigi's Mansion
Mario Circuit (D)
Bridge of Eldin (D)
Pirate Ship
Norfair
Frigate Orpheon
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 2
Castle Siege (D)
Distant Planet (D)
Smashville
Skyworld
PictoChat
Green Hill Zone (D)
Yoshi's Island (Melee)(D)
Jungle Japes
Onette (D)
Green Greens (D)
Rainbow Ride
Corneria (D)
Big Blue
Brinstar
Pokemon Stadium

Every other stage is banned

Dedede rule: Stages with (D) next to them are banned for Dedede unless the opponent agrees to it

I've got a few problems with the Dedede part of the stage list.

Lets go through the usual counter pick procedure.

1. Loser chooses stage
2. Winner Picks character
3. Loser Picks character

The problem with this is that lets say the loser counter picks Bridge of Eldin against an MK they just lost to. Now the MK player may not necessarily want to play out a match of BoE, so after the loser picks BoE they could simply say "Oh, I want to play Dedede".

What happens here? Is it really alright for this to happen?

The player could then repick a stage which is exceptionally bad for Dedede and character which anihilates him.

Consider it if it were the other way around.

If the opponent knew full well that the opponent was a Dedede main and lost to that Dedede in the first match, they might decide to counter pick a bad stage for Dedede, and then the Dedede main would have the opportunity of picking a character that doesn't get owned on said stage.

Can you see what I'm getting at?

Lets take the previous scenario:

[...] the loser counter picks Bridge of Eldin against an MK they just lost to. Now the MK player may not necessarily want to play out a match of BoE, so after the loser picks BoE they could simply say "Oh, I want to play Dedede".

Once the new stage is picked, should we give the option to Dedede mains to switch characters yet again based on the stage counter picked against Dedede?

What is happening here is that it's nullifying the Dedede's option to swap characters after a counter stage is chosen, it's skipping step 2. (Winner Picks character) which is usually based on step 1. (Loser picks stage)

The problem with allowing Dedede mains to switch yet again is that it effectively allows them to stage ban just because they're using Dedede.

What I'm saying is, the current rules regarding Dedede stage ban procedure aren't clear cut. I guess the first question would be how does Melbourne do it?

 

[Everence]

haven't really encountered such a problem really, but yeah, wouldn't it be alright if you just have winner must use the character of the previous game that they won with?

 

[Redact]

then the person can repick characters against DDD if someone does pull that
the whole "loser picks second" rule applies
and also since the person repicked their character, you can repick the stage, and i can think of A LOT of stages that counter DDD more so than BOE counters MK

people do it like "ok you pick ddd? ill pick either skyworld/rainbow ride" then they win

 

[TakFR]

Let's go through this as if i was playing if I was the winner

1. Loser chooses stage
2. Winner Picks character
3. Loser Picks character

1) Loser picks stage
2) I pick Fox
3) Loser picks Pikachu

Chainthrows to 80% and dmash = omg wtf ko

 

[ComboTurtle]

doesnt it go winner picks char loser picks char loser picks stage?

 

[Suntan Luigi]

Melbourne doesn't have many DDD players so we never had a big problem with that.

 

[Vyse]

then the person can repick characters against DDD if someone does pull that
the whole "loser picks second" rule applies
and also since the person repicked their character, you can repick the stage, and i can think of A LOT of stages that counter DDD more so than BOE counters MK

people do it like "ok you pick ddd? ill pick either skyworld/rainbow ride" then they win

Exactly why I'm bringing this up.

doesnt it go winner picks char loser picks char loser picks stage?

Not as far as I know. I've always done, Stage - loser char - winner char.
Tell me if you do it differently.

 

[xXArrowXx]

lol what combo turtle said.. it makes sense

to me it seems fair to have first round random.
and 2nd round advantage to the loser.
and 3rd round advantage to the loser of the second.

if u pick characters after stage select... it seems u are only counterpicking characters... cause opponet can adjust.. and pwn as much as he did in the first match (if he did)

as for dedede chain grab.. across the stage (no walkoffs) is ok with me :X against a wall.... i frown XD

 

[Vyse]

if u pick characters after stage select... it seems u are only counterpicking characters... cause opponet can adjust.. and pwn as much as he did in the first match (if he did)

Not if the loser counter picks their character well.

1. Loser Chooses Stage
2. Winner Adjusts character to fit the new stage
3. The Loser counter picks character, effectively giving them an advantage.

 

[jamus]

If you go by what Turtle says then the problem is solved. Simple.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

doesnt it go winner picks char loser picks char loser picks stage?

That gives the loser too much of an advantage.

 

[ComboTurtle]

thats the way its always been... i think

 

[Mic_128]

That's how I thought it went, though I know it can definetly vary.

 

[S.D]

Hmmm I think in the old days the loser would counterpick stage first, i seem to remember KDJ just shouting out POKEMON STADIUM the second he lost a match to Ken at some MLG event which would reinforce this idea.

HOWEVER lets just do what Turtle said because it makes better sense.

 

[Dekar289]

That gives the loser too much of an advantage.

no
that's definitely not too much of an advantage
the winner can still ban a stage, and besides, this means the person who won the first match will win anyway

 

[S.D]

Dekar is right, that's why winning the first nuetral stage is so very important, because if the opponent counterpicks well and wins, you get the same privelege for the final match xD

 

[Vyse]

Set Format (in order of procedure)
1. Opponents choose their characters for the first match *
2. Each player may announce one stage to be banned for the entirety of the set
3. The first stage will be played at random from the Random Stage List **
4. The loser of the previous match announces the next match's stage from either the Random Stage List or the Counter Stage List
5. The winner of the previous match chooses their character
6. The loser of the previous match chooses their character
7. Repeat steps 4-7 for all proceeding matches
*Double blind character selection may be called for this match
**Opponents may instead agree upon a random stage

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=137382
The SBR Brawl set format is almost identical.

Either way, I'm pretty sure I've always run tournaments with this particular set format.

 

[Gords]

Ok well I am going to express my opinion in they way I see the logic in it.

Firstly though, to my knowledge the way counterpicking has been played out at most of the tourneys I've attended have been
Vyse's method:
1) loser picks stage
2) winner pick char
3) loser picks char

But there is also turtle's method:
1) winner picks char
2) loser picks char
3) loser picks stage

And the dedede rule states:
Stages with (D) next them are banned for Dedede unless the opponent agrees to it.

Looking at it another way its saying that a D-stage cannot be selected by the loser if they are dedede (as the loser picks the stage in both counterpick methods).

This makes sense and works when used with turtle's counterpicking method as both characters are chosen before the stage, so the loser has already declared that he is dedede by the time a stage is selected. Therefore cannot select a D-stage. The characters used in the previous match has no effect at all on the dedede rule using this counterpick method.

However, if Vyse's counterpick method is used the dedede rule doesn't make sense. Vyse's counterpick method says that the loser picks stage first. But let's say that loser was using dedede and now goes to pick a stage. They are unable to select a D-stage even if they wish to change to another character(or letting the opponent know they dont wish to stay dedede) as they are still dedede at the time of stage selection. Or we can play it the other way like vyse's example, loser counterpicks a D-stage then the winner chooses Dedede. The dedede rule says nothing about allowing the loser to ban the winner playing dedede. Also lets say that the loser in vyse's example counterpicks a D-stage. The losers opponent has already agreed that the stage is ok for play and chooses their character. The loser has the option to now pick dedede as the the rule says that (D) stages are banned for dedede, but when the stage was selected the loser was not dedede.

So as arrow said, the rule is solved when using turtle's counterpick method. However I agree with Suntan Luigi in that this method gives to much of an advantage to the loser. My opinion for this is that it gives no control to the winner of the previous match other than playing a different character. If the stage is selected first however, as in vyse's method, then the winner can still play without a stage disadvantage but with a character disadvantage. It also gives the loser a chance to play a stage suited for a character change without it getting band or letting them know of the knew character. For example if the loser played the first match as falco but wants to play as diddy. Now a good ban would be jungle japes as it is a great falco stage. So now the loser is free to select FD and change to diddy as FD is a great diddy stage. If FD was banned instaed then the loser can still pick jungle japes and stay falco. So there is a bit more stratedgy in vyse's counterpick method IMO. Also I think that using this method a dedede loser should be able to choose a D-stage but are not allowed to stay dedede to play on it. This will only give a tiny bit more advantage to the winner in changing characters as they only know the loser is no longer playing dedede.

So with that the problem still occurs with the dedede rule. It is my opinion that in vyse's example the winner should not be allowed to pick dedede to play with as the control over stage select would now moves to them. They already have stage banning to effect the losers selection. Having it this way also puts a limitation on the winner when it comes to the dedede issue. As it is now there is only a limititation on the loser. So I think the rule should be changed so that it says:

Stages with (D) next to it cannot be selected if dedede is to played and dedede cannot be selected if stages with (D) next to it are to be played on unless agreed on by both players/teams at the time of stage selection.

Having it this way changes nothing with respect to turtle's counterpick method. And for vyse's method if a D-stage is selected no one can then select dedede to play with. This way a D-stage cannot be picked by a dedede loser without letting the opponent know they wish to change characters but not letting them know which character they wish to change to or allowing the loser to still have character counterpick options. Also if a loser picks a D-stage and is agreed on by a dedede winner then in the same effect is that the winner is agreeing to change from dedede. Which is basically the same as a dedede loser picking a D-stage saying they agree to changing characters.
The only problem I see with the rule like this is that it allows a dedede winner to disagree to a D-stage forcing the loser to repick and then changing characters anyway. I think in this situition the winner should forfeit their stage ban, so as the loser may then select the stage that was banned, but I don't really know enough about dedede counterpicks to make such a judgement.

What are some good non D-stage counterpicks to choose against a good dedede or potentail stages that dedede mains may want to ban?

And sorry for the long post, I hope I didn't bore any of you it if you got this far down the post I presume I didn't. In which case I hope you got somethng out of it.

 

[ComboTurtle]

i didnt write that much for my essays at school and im definately not going to read all that but i think the gist of what gords is trying to say is that turtles strategy solves the problem and he is amazing.

 

[ACCELERATE]

<3 Turtle.

Guys this isnt up for discussion... Hes Simply asking how melbourne does this. Stop spamming the thread and Wait for Something that could have been resovled over a quick msn convo to cao to be answered.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

no
that's definitely not too much of an advantage
the winner can still ban a stage, and besides, this means the person who won the first match will win anyway

Then why don't we just decide the winner of the set by the first match? Like I said, too much of an advantage.

 

[xXArrowXx]

cause u might have tripped.... SAKURAIIII!!

 

[Dekar289]

Then why don't we just decide the winner of the set by the first match? Like I said, too much of an advantage.

because, if you're better than them, you will not only beat them in the first match, but probably also one of their cps

in conclusion, this was never a problem in melee, stupid dedede, stupid metaknight, stupid game

 

[Vyse]

1. Complaining about Brawl's subjective lameness is not going to solve anything
2. This was a problem in Melee.

What if you mained IC's? If you won the first round it would be suicide to choose IC's before you knew what stage is chosen (Unless you're super awesome at using IC's on Pokefloats/Rainbow Cruise)

Stage counter picks have a great influence on the outcome of a match, this is why this was implemented very early on in Melee's life span.

For as long as I've been playing in Melee tournaments it's always been:

1. Loser chooses Stage
2. Winner Chooses Character
3. Loser Chooses character

With the reason being that certain characters can get butt****ed on certain stages.
I do agree that the 'choose stage last' method effectively solves this problem, but it also creates new problems by creating a system where match outcomes are HEAVILY influenced by the stage.

However, the thing I LIKE about the 'loser chooses stage last' is that it can serve to balance the top end of the cast significantly by giving people the opportunity to counter pick MK to Shadow Moses/other bad stages or maybe Snake to Rainbow Cruise.

Conversely, it also prevents the opponent from switching between say, Snake and MK depending on what stage the opponent chooses because they will have not chosen the stage yet.

So I'd like to see a consensus from more people I guess.

 

[Dekar289]

if you main ICs, you ban either pokefloats or rainbow cruise
you win first match
they pick whatever you didn't ban, you lose
you pick, you win
(for best of 5 set) they pick, you win

ICs win... problem?

 

[Vyse]

It creates a situation where the stage determines the winner.
I guess it's up for debate but as far as I know that's why stages are generally chosen that way in Melee.

If having the stage chosen last is better, I don't know why America nor us have ever had the rulesets state otherwise : /

 

[Paff]

It's weird, I know a lot of people were playing char-char-stage while I was there, and it was only at SantaSmash that Scrubs informed me that it didn't work like that. So somehow the confusion has become widespread.

As to solving the issue, I guess there's no perfect solution, but the best solution is probably to let the loser choose whichever stage they wish, and then to let the winner choose their character, except that they cannot choose Dedede on a Dedede-banned stage. This, of course, unfairly restricts their character choice options and hoses Dedede mainers, but if some stages are, as you say, suicidal for certain characters, then mainers of those other characters essentially have the same problem already anyway.

 

[Vyse]

I think going char-char-stage is only unfair if you look at it from one perspective.

However, the thing I LIKE about the 'loser chooses stage last' is that it can serve to balance the top end of the cast significantly by giving people the opportunity to counter pick MK to Shadow Moses/other bad stages or maybe Snake to Rainbow Cruise.

 

[Redact]

i think theres a more simple solution to this
play melee instead

 

[Gords]

has anyone spent the 5 or so minutes and read through my epic long post?

Can someone at least answer the question I ask on the second last paragraph?

 

[S.D]

if you main ICs, you ban either pokefloats or rainbow cruise
you win first match
they pick whatever you didn't ban, you lose
you pick, you win
(for best of 5 set) they pick, you win

ICs win... problem?

Ice Climbers always win... ALWAYS

Besides, Icies can win on both stages you just gots to protect yo Nana

 

[Dekar289]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQsSw9JylKY&feature=related

NANA ZERO TO DEATH on jiano's 3rd

 

[ComboTurtle]

wow chu owned.

 

[S.D]

Haha that's what you keep Nana around for.

That set actually turns into a contest, I've watched match 4 a few times - Jiano 3 stock comeback HAWT

 

[xXArrowXx]

... but its not manly using both iceclimbers >.>

but yeah he got pwned.. poor captain falcon

 

[Mic_128]

The best solution is probably to let the loser choose whichever stage they wish, and then to let the winner choose their character, except that they cannot choose Dedede on a Dedede-banned stage. This, of course, unfairly restricts their character choice options and hoses Dedede mainers

Those stages that are Dedede banned would be otherwise flat out banned.

 

[Redact]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvzC9DG8Nyk&feature=related

NANA IS A MACHINE yehboi

 

[CAOTIC]

chudat sux