Australian Competitive Brawl Ruleset Discussion *Update: 15/05/08* *Spoilers*

[Redact]

ok simple stage it is, can basic lol

also as i said as well, FD advantages snake, sometimes more than Eldin because he can side KO easier in general, and cant be interrupted by the pig dude or anything, so he can stick to his camping harder than on Eldin

 

[Suntan Luigi]

Bjay you'll fo sho fo-stock me anyday.

 

[Jaz]

Pause on because there are things non phone related that could interfere with a match and you may very well need to pause
unnecessary pausing can be punished by stock loss like melee.
phones silenced, and can't be answered during matches, in between.

 

[CATS]

kulla - i pointed out in that exact same post you read that no stage is unbiased. neutrals are not neutral and we've just been discussing that the last 2 pages or something. FD and battlefield favour those that can utilise open space to be given an advantage over those with no long range or flight capabilities. eldin favours those with good horizontal movement/trajectories and camping. i said it all in the same post.

despite all that people perceive to be wrong with eldin, it really is a basic stage. FD has its myriad of problems and we've all come to accept that as being the norm so it will probably just become accepted in time.

scrubs with your last post you make some good points.

Basic is the fundamental level of something:
true, but this does not mean it can be complex, as the definition for basic in terms of chemistry does not correlate to its actual use in the english language. the actual definitions of basic (in its common use) are posted by shaz only a page or two back and i think we should be able to all agree that our own interpretations of what basic is can be disregarded as we look to provide a formal wording for the term.

FD is the most basic stage:
i agree whole heartedly on that one. it definitely appears to be the basis which forms most other stages.

etc etc etc can be the most basic whatever stage:
while it can be true that they are indeed the most basic of that type, those elements themselves may not be basic nor necessarily be combined with a layout that is basic. however walk off edges are just as basic as having edges. you may think of the gap in eldin when it appears as being an inverted final destination with the only difference being that there is no utilisation of edge invincibility during their camping spam (hello pit on FD or hello robot with super flight recovery).

basic still stands as a very sensible word to use for what we intend the stages to be taken as, and i feel your last post actually rather supports it. i support your use of FD as the guide to what is considered a basic stage in comparison to it, just don't use it as a guide as to which is the most neutral ground for characters.

redact says FD benefits snake more than eldin but well i'd say both benefit him exactly the same as he uses them both in the same fashion. of course even if you banned those 2 he still has animal crossing up his sleave. (just thought i'd bring that up since i said the magic number of 2 lol)

phones can be off or on imo as receiving calls can be important (at comrades2 i was called to inform me that my grandfather had died) but i don't believe you should answer them for whatever reason in a match. pause on but gets punished by loss of stock if it is without good reason, like scratching your nose, answering your phone, talking to someone etc.
basically jaz is smart.

 

[Redact]

theres at least a warning or such for pausing mid match, is there?
its also pretty Dependant on when you pause, like if its a pause mid combo, thats a tad suss, but if its like pause just as you die, then theres no major harm in that, but as i stated its really situational about the pausing

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

Mmm - well I think phones are helpful in tourney situations. Sam : "How do I get home from McDonalds?" and so on. Perhaps just having them off during matches themselves. I don't have any problem with them being there or on during matches on silent - just when people interrupt a match to answer them right when ure in a combo or recovering. Nothing worse than failing to recover due to phone pause -_-. Even if they dont answer it just hearing the opponents phone ring totally throws me off my game personally - staring at them thinking wtf.

 

[Bjay]

Even if they dont answer it just hearing the opponents phone ring totally throws me off my game personally - staring at them thinking wtf.

In that case just look like your Captain Falcon avatar xD

 

[Sloth]

Basic is just as good as Neutral in describing the stage. Both have been shown to be deceiving because of peoples original perceptions.
Just go with what you like. Saying basic will just add separation in our terms. I am sure we'll get over that in about 4 to 5 seconds.

If phones are on, you could prank call people during matches for kicks! Well. yeah. I go for silent. Just like when watching a movie really.

Where do you draw the line for neutrals Melb ppl? That is what I want to know. Because all I can gather from everything you say it is about adapting and using your characters abilities to play the stage to your advantage. Which is a basic core principle to begin with.. like jumping. Your arguments tend to be pretty wide-open which allow for everything, but I never see any defined principles.

Without definition everything has no meaning/basis.

Also, I'd love to see you guys play Eldin to prove to me if it really is deserving as a neutral. Because atm, I'm not even going to hesitate to put it as counter-pick in QLD tournaments/meets. Or even ban it if everyone up there wants it gone. Walk offs fail @ life.

 

[Scrubs]

1. Of, relating to, or forming a base; fundamental: "Basic changes in public opinion often occur because of shifts in concerns and priorities" (Atlantic).
2. Of, being, or serving as a starting point or basis: a basic course in Russian; a set of basic woodworking tools.

n.
1. An essential, fundamental element or entity: the basics of math.
2. Basic training.

Exactly the same as the meaning in CHEM...

However I don't mind basic it is okay...

 

[ellelaby's younger brother]

What does counterpick stages mean?

btw, I don't like the look of the counterpick stages list...

 

[Sloth]

I'm at nay's house atm so I'll make a quick post.
I found it interesting how the top people in Brawl (Kulla/Erick) actually turned off Bridge of Eldin/Castle Seige/Lylant for their finals in brawl.

I've also found from talking to a far amount of smashers most people highly dislike those levels and want them counter-picked.
Anyways, anything I've gained from the experience indicates that they should be removed from the neutral stage selection.

I'll make a more detailed post next week sometime.

 

[Mic_128]

I don't really see any reason at all to take lylat from neutral.

Castle siege however...ugh. That's no neutral.

 

[sLibs]

I donno I find wit Corneria that things are constantly shooting at you, it should be dedede banned coz of the wall, the stage is very short both vertically and horizontally, lucas can heal quite easily and it's a bout 50% worth of heal per shot from the bottom laser which i've tried and the recovery back to the stage is easy enough, etc. IMO i think it should be changed to a counterpick, why was it in melee? (not retorical). Is it because the R-wing laser shots don't send you flying and just dmg you in SSBB?

In terms of Castle Siege i find that i dont mind it that much as a neutral stage, sure the transition can kill you but i mean the screen shakes and a warps to the new area. Though if my opponent asked can we ban castle siege i wouldnt be totally opposed to it for the pure fact it's not a traditional neutral stage. Those are my opinions anyway, no need to flame a noob ^^

Sorry yeh that's what i meant thanx for the point out Plasia

 

[Plasia]

sLibs I think you're talking about Corneria there.

 

[Mic_128]

Corneria was counterpick in melee, wasn't it?

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

<-- Agrees with Erick.

 

[Redact]

corneria counterpick (and still ddd banned)

i think its just generally a bit broken in a few ways, lazars :x lucas/ness camp :x bit on the small side :x

castle seige ddd banned imo, the amount i can abuse it is not because the opponent isnt playing right, nor is it because im good like that (but i am good >:D ) but i really do think its because of the 2nd stage, and transitions that its just too broken for ddd

 

[Mr. Phantasmo]

I would like to bring up my recent discovery (well from the last ranbat at least) of Falco's chain grab. I know it's been known for a while but I haven't tested it yet so I'm not sure on how broken it is.

 

[sLibs]

I would like to bring up my recent discovery (well from the last ranbat at least) of Falco's chain grab. I know it's been known for a while but I haven't tested it yet so I'm not sure on how broken it is.

Hmmm i haven't really tested it to the extreme coz im not really like that, i just try it when i play but in general, the heavier the character the easier it is to chaingrab due to the fact that % determines the knockback rate (unlike dedede's where the knockback rate is always the same therefore infinite). With lighter characters you could probably chaingrab grab 2-3 times at 0% before they can get out of it, if that. But by all means try it yourself and prove me wrong

 

[Kulla]

I'm at nay's house atm so I'll make a quick post.
I found it interesting how the top people in Brawl (Kulla/Erick) actually turned off Bridge of Eldin/Castle Seige/Lylant for their finals in brawl.
I'll make a more detailed post next week sometime.

Yeah... Also when I played dekar I'm pretty sure we turned them off, most of our teams double matces too..

 

[Scrubs]

Falco's chaingrab is perfectly fine. Maximum you can do it to is about 50% on some chars. It isn't infinite against walls because the opponent kind of slides up the wall and can jump out.

I always thought Corneria and Seige shouldn't be neutrals. Seems that everyone agrees now.

 

[TakFR]

Yeah... Also when I played dekar I'm pretty sure we turned them off, most of our teams double matces too..

At least you asked us when we played if we wanted Bridge of Eldin on or not, honestly it should be counterpick imo

 

[Bjay]

so, what's queensland's current set of neutral/basic stages?

I think it's good how we're gonna have our own rules on stage sets.

Japan (for Melee) had only 3 stages, after all.

--

Personally, I hate Lylat Cruise. But it's mainly because of the whole recovery thing.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

I don't understand why we ban certain stages just for King Dedede. We never did anything like that in Melee for Fox. We simply banned the stage for ALL characters. I think we should ban Bridge of Eldin and Castle Siege.

 

[Bjay]

Correct me if I'm wrong (no, this isn't a rhetorical question), but aren't certain stages Dedede banned because of his infinite chain grab, according to the stage of course?

Where as things that don't require a stage that can be done to an infinite amount are just banned overall.

 

[kupo]

Skipped most of the older posts in this threadz lol. Cept for previous page =D.

I don't understand why we ban certain stages just for King Dedede. We never did anything like that in Melee for Fox. We simply banned the stage for ALL characters. I think we should ban Bridge of Eldin and Castle Siege.

Wrong. With Fox's WD shine for melee, you can D.I away to prevent another shine or...hope that the fox screws up the timing for it. If you're just caught up in a wall infinite shine...well...why are you even up against a wall in the first place?

I think Fourside/Yoshi Island are banned stages? Well..who's dodgy enough to play those stages if they aren't?

Enough with Melee, I agree on one with Erick to make old skool Corneria to be taken off as a neutral stage and put on as a counter pick. It was never a neutral stage to begin with and was never put on as one of the random neutrals for melee.

However with the stage transitions with castle seige (this could also apply to that Mario Sunshine level...Isle of Delfino?), it's an excuse to say that stage changes can make or break a game. In Melee, we define neutral as something that doesn't have enviromental hazzards that can kill. Or rather a stage where most characters perform evenly. I hope theres a change with Delfino Isle and Castle Seige becomes one of the neutral randoms. There needs to be some variety to some of the random selections...rather just flat levels with/without platforms. Some interactivity imo. Stage hazards like that stage with the drawing in the backgrounds (some benefital...some outright dangerous lol) are of course, a no no for neutral. Afterall, thats what counter stages are for right?

Im not really in favour of banning stages due to character infinites. Why not just ban the consecutive use of the ability? It's a dumb comparison....but remember that NTSC Melee 1.0 had the IC's Infinite? The ability was easy to pull off but it's banned in all tournaments obviously.

/FLAME SHIELD UP

 

[CAOTIC]

Japan (for Melee) had only 3 stages, after all.

Just one of the things that contirubted to Japan's demise in the Smash Scene.
By Melee's end, its scene was smaller than our ones (Kyoto only draws around 30 people late in 2007 and is the only smash city in JP). That, and the lack of incentive to play (no money - all pride) hurt it pretty badly.

 

[Bjay]

._. oh, i didn't know that.

ouch.

---

Hmm I'm having trouble remembering which stage is Four Side.

 

[sLibs]

I do agree that there has to be some sort of variety when playing, definitely. But i mean is it to the point where when it transitions to a crap area it's just a camp off or both waiting until the next transition? I actually like castle siege but so i think it should definitely stay as neutral, as for delfino i think i've played it once so i can't really comment on it i think it's much like castle siege but much more sudden?

I thought the DeDeDe (grrr codename d3) ban system was great, he can't choose the banned stages but the opposing player can if he/she so wishes? Seemed to work but correct me if im wrong d3 players a.k.a. Redact lol (and opponents). I don't think that d3's chain grab was as broken as IC's infinite so it wouldn't go to the extreme of the tech being banned, i think it's more like foxes WD shine as you were saying, DI friendly (not with heavier chars) and can be screwed up by d3. i still do believe that it is spot dodgeable by some chars. The 'broken' part IMO comes in on stages with walls, coz it's way too easy to chain once your against one.

*hides behind em's flame shield

 

[Redact]

not only is ddd chain di friendly, theres the fact i need to dash inbetween each dash, that means a chance of tripping even if it is slim

dedede chain isnt broken in general, just against walls its a tad forked
i really cant be bothered arguing right now about this, but i still think ddd rule = win, balanced how it is right now imo. the current stages that are exempted from ddd rule with walls, are the ones with temp walls, or temp walkoff. castle seige? its actually pretty **** easy to use the platforms and never get grabbed, its been done to me before. the other temp ones like pk stadium or such, are pretty easy too get around, remember dedede isnt exactly the fastest character around, use that to your advantage, i know it can be hard if your one of the few slower characters, but if you play the right style, you should be able to punish my grabs

if you know im going to try to grab you against the wall, you should counter it
if you cant counter something as simple and predictable as a shield grab, then you cant try to john out on "oh he got me against a wall on a temp stage, therefore he isnt better than me"

im not saying anyone does that, i havent had that yet from anyone here, but either way, its pretty easy to punish me for trying to chain grab, easy to get out of, and of course you can just run for a bit till the stage changes

and i dont need to flame shield, that stuffs for *******.
take that **** to the face like a real man

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

Hitting up some old school arguments I see. Applied logic behind some of the recent arguments:

Dedede Rule - the rule is probably still the best solution. The technique and its applications are quite biased and unlike Melee DI isn't a good fix. The rule has held up well and is flexible if discussed between players.

Disallowing Technique instead of banning places its broken - Can't be done - there just aren't enough eyes to keep track - not to mention that his chain is otherwise a fair and valuable part of Dedede's game, and Dedede players with it in muscle memory shouldn't run the risk of being DQ'd for accidentally pulling it off. Many characters can pseudo chain (at least). Dedede is practically no different (with the exception on Dedede Rule stages of course).

The main issue with transition stages is this - some characters now fly while others simply can't. If Robot or Metaknight(+ more) grab the opponent at a transition on Delfino it becomes a free kill instantly even if the opponent wriggles free unless they too can fly.

Banning Stages for all characters - That wasn't us who decided that it was MLG. We are running by our own rules this time around. As stated previously DI (and lack of) played a big part in this issue and related decisions.

Corneria - Although the concepts are naturally foreign to everyones untrained brain - the two versions of Spear Pillar (disregarding Creselias) are much closer to a 'basic' or neutral stage than Corneria. With the exception of the moment they strike (though there is warning given by the pokemon) the mirror screen etc. are only playing on the players ability to adjust - not the characters. Corneria is both random and contains an increibly low ceiling (which unlike walk-off edges is present the stage over)... Heavily biased no matter how you look at it.

Dedede (mainly related to Redacts post) - Avoiding his grabs on Castle Siege is possible though of course harder for some characters than others. Use the terrain to your advantage - it helps. I took Redacts Dedede to one of the Dedede rule stages (Green Hill) as Ike and gave it a solid man-humping. Terrain and the proper use of it can have a strong impact on the outcome of a match even against *gasp* Dedede.

Early morning post for the win

 

[King Kong]

In New York, as far I know. Dedede's infinite chain grabs were simply banned. Probably largely due to BUM, since Dededes infinite on DK makes the match unwinable.

I dont think it would be too hard to police in a tournament. Just have a person watching, who can go to an organiser and report it.

peace out

 

[Scrubs]

Okay.....

I will take Corneria, Delfino and Castle Seige of Neutral.

Also it is possible to police the use of a technique. It works because if you are a good player you will know the rules and know when your opponent is abusing them.

I think that the no-walls DDD infinite should be limited to30-50%(somewhere in there) once per opponent's stock. It is up to the Dedede player when in the stock they use it.

There are always people standing around watching matches. A responsible by stander could be appointed to be a match steward by the tournament organiser.

You would only need stewards for DDD matches so I don't think this would be too much of a hassle.

 

[kupo]

lol

The main issue with transition stages is this - some characters now fly while others simply can't. If Robot or Metaknight(+ more) grab the opponent at a transition on Delfino it becomes a free kill instantly even if the opponent wriggles free unless they too can fly.

to...

if you know im going to try to grab you against the wall, you should counter it
if you cant counter something as simple and predictable as a shield grab, then you cant try to john out on "oh he got me against a wall on a temp stage, therefore he isnt better than me"

See where I'm getting at?

All I'm saying is, stage transitions are used to your advantages (or to try and make good use of it). Getting grabbed while outside of range when the platforms are up and ready to go...and you're about to die due to a grab...well...lol. Who's fault for being there?

Campers = stalling match = LOLBANMEPLZ!?

 

[sLibs]

i just played delfino yesterday and shaz saying about being grabbed IMO is very true, easy gimpings but if everyone deems that as a "strategy" then that's ok, but the transition is pretty sudden and without warning so yeh.

ANYWAY

Why isn't luigi's mansion a neutral? if you want another stage i vote for that. Is it because theres breakables?

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

Policing is HARD. Take it from me - it's hard enough to even get people to play their matches to begin with for the poor organisers. Even in the Melee days (with far fewer players) matches would pass by under our noses with people (yes - usually two lesser watched players) on a banned stage, and whats more - it wouldn't be until far later in the day that the player who realises they lost on such a stage would come to us and complain. I'm sure you can already see the fiasco involved, and stages are much easier to spot than than a move is. Policing would only work if we have one official in charge of watching for such techniques and keeping an eye on counter stages, bans, slob-picks etc. but as it stands we just don't have the manpower.
I'm not saying that it's impossible or wrong - just that as it currently stands it's going to drain those running the tourneys even further when there's a much friendlier option available in what currently exists.

All I'm saying is, stage transitions are used to your advantages (or to try and make good use of it). Getting grabbed while outside of range when the platforms are up and ready to go...and you're about to die due to a grab...well...lol. Who's fault for being there?

I'm open to any challenge, and while I strongly agree with this point personally so far it hasn't seemed too popular amongst the masses. If you ask me dying to something like this more than once in a blue moon is an indication of your bad judgment, choice of character and lack of stage-based knowledge. I consider all of these things part of what makes up skill as a whole in smash.
Almost all camping can be stopped or limited by most characters in most situations and stages. It's as much a strategy as is combo-based play, hit-and-run or defensive-counter and should be handled with some kind of counter strategy (lol like shield, roll, jump, air dodge, hanging on edges/whatever xD). I would consider Snake Falco, and Pit to be amongst the best campers, and as an Ike main I know that even my slow hulking melee character can make it through to break up the projectiles.

 

[Redact]

just as shaz said, its hard enough to police
i consistantly had people asking me the rules when we played half the matches at rambo
but the thing is though, i could just go "oh .... is legal" to half of the people there, they wouldnt know
i did play by the correct ruleset, but with how little people knew about all these sorts of things, and how hard it was just to get half of the matches going, it shows how easily someone could break the rules, without their opponent realising

i mean i wont go off claiming eldin is legal for dedede, but something as simple as that is already hard enough to police, i had to stop one match at rambo because of it already, but i bet there were more dodgey matches we missed

if we implemented rules like eldin legal but cant throw so much, or corneria legal but to only a certian %
its going to be crazy hard to police it

at rambo, the organizers were only a few, and ontop of that they had their own matches, i was consistantly trying to get people to play by the right rules at the start, and i was consistantly policing during the day about the banned and non banned stages

if we get down to specific moves being bad or stratagies, every match will need to be watched, yes you can say "you should already know the rules" but theres so many new people for brawl, and theres going to be so many more coming, that at future tourneys there will be too many matches to police for such a small amount of informed people

i really dunno where the hell im going, but policing specific things is hard, too hard, and the way the general mass that will be coming to tourneys is doesnt help.

 

[Darkwing SykeDuk]

Just because it's banned doesn't mean you can't do it if both players agree to using it.

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

...and Vice Versa Syke. If we say a certain move/chain is not banned unless both players agree it is then at least we know both players will watch out for it vigilantly. Then of course we could have disagreements between players "you used it more than three times in a row!" "no I didn't lair!" and so on.

Erick - I personally can't see reasons to hate on Luigis Mansion other than the sheer size of it. Like you mentioned it can be destroyed if you feel it should and so on. The fact that this decision exists though kind of makes it less straight-forward and basic like the general random stages tend to be. Just some thoughts to mix into the pot. Thoughts people?

 

[CAOTIC]

I just added about 20 extra stages into Random Select. Get ready to up our exp. on LOL stages!