Australian Competitive Brawl Ruleset Discussion *Update: 15/05/08* *Spoilers*

[Redact]

FD favors them in the same fashion, i personally think FD favors rob more than eldin favors him
bf and the generality of neutral stages are the best ones for marth
thats why as ive said, and im pretty sure almost everyone has said, neutrals aren't really neutrals
as you said yourself before, FD is the most neutral stage there is, and through what ive seen with rob, either FD or smash ville are his best stages
neutrals arent neutral, thats why its still a neutral
we have dedede rule'd eldin, the main problem with the stage, with that in mind, its as neutral as any stage will be, even with how it is

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

The problem with having one ban for all stages and one for neutrals is that it's further favouring one lot of characters over the other. Sticking up for the underdog is just as bad as what you're claiming Scrubs is doing sticking up for the view of 'neutrals are fair' even though everyone agrees the better characters are just better there. The idea I'm working with is to allow for most stages to be playable, and most strategies to be valid, that way we have the option to play as and do what we like (within reason - stalling, Dedede hax). this way we will be able to come to a proper and sound conclusion as to which stages, characters and strategies are the stronger and more likely to be used - as well as being able to make a well informed decision as to what is considered fair for tournament play.
The suggestion you have Redact may or may not be an idea for the future - but it's best not to think so heavily on it until we have more knowledge to go off.

 

[Sloth]

My own jolt with one ban is when I look at the correlation of stages to amount of characters it is made practically redundant. I've stated this far too often to go into anymore detail.

It worked great in melee due to having less counter-picks/neutrals/character-matchups.

Redact: I also disagree on having one neutral and one counter-pick ban. Shaz sort of covered some of the points But it sort of goes against what I've been speaking about when talking about two bans.
I can go into further detail if you wish, or just re-quote things I've said.

Btw. Shaz, its funny how you say

Sticking up for the underdog is just as bad as what you're claiming Scrubs is doing sticking up for the view of 'neutrals are fair' even though everyone agrees the better characters are just better there. .

This just proves neutrals are fair ! The fact that the top characters remain on top show the stage is designed to create an optimum setting for balanced play !

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

No you're totally right there Sloth - absolutely....That's exactly what I said man - can't slip one past you.

 

[NG7]

Thread over.

Random neutrals only.

Only kidding. I know i'd pretty much be the only one in favour of that. Too tired, will post properly after sleep.

 

[Sloth]

I love you too Shaz <3
Lets marry?

lol NG7, I doubt you'd be the only one. I am all for random neutrals only infact probably most of the QLD players would be too! Either way thats all we ever seem to play !

 

[ACCELERATE]

I prepose. 1 Ban of a Neutral stage and 1 ban of a Counterpick stage.
Thats the fairest way to do it imo.

 

[Redact]

after talking to shaz today, i've decided to call the random stages, the "Basic" stages, instead of "neutral"
because these so called "neutral" stages, aren't really that neutral, just less broken as a whole
the rambo stages are already listed as basic, not neutral, i know its just more of a habit from melee, but its probably more true this way

 

[Mic_128]

you're not the only one, discussion was going on in the sbroom to change neutral to something else.

 

[CAOTIC]

Us Victorians are always one step ahead of convention <3

 

[Sloth]

I don't see the point. Neutral is already more commonly used and it is basically means the same thing.

 

[Mic_128]

Many people would argue that Isle Delphino isn't neutral at all since it moves/transforms, which doens't seem neutral at all, but it's still a perfectly fine stage for the random starting stages.

 

[Sloth]

I guess it all boils down to your perception of how a neutral is classified in smash. And that seems to be a very varied opinion.
People calling it basic is fine, it will just be weird with half people classifying stages as a neutral stage and half as a basic stage. It just seems unnecessary for that reason alone.

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

ba·sic Audio Help (bā'sĭk) Pronunciation Key
adj.

1. Of, relating to, or forming a base; fundamental: "Basic changes in public opinion often occur because of shifts in concerns and priorities" (Atlantic).
2. Of, being, or serving as a starting point or basis: a basic course in Russian; a set of basic woodworking tools.

n.
1. An essential, fundamental element or entity: the basics of math.
2. Basic training.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
neu·tral Audio Help (nōō'trəl, nyōō'-) Pronunciation Key
adj.

1. Not aligned with, supporting, or favoring either side in a war, dispute, or contest.
2. Belonging to neither side in a controversy: on neutral ground.
3. Belonging to neither kind; not one thing or the other.

n.
1. A nation nonaligned with either side in a war.
2. One who takes no side in a controversy: "I am by disposition one of life's neutrals, a human Switzerland" (John Gregory Dunne).
3. A neutral hue.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neutral and Basic are obviously the same.
Confusion arises when a person reads that they're called "neutral" stages when they should be referred to as basic stages instead. Case in point: Scrubs.

 

[Sloth]

Dictionary meaning is useless when you consider how we understand the terminology. English is such a beautiful language in how we interpret a word and meaning.

I think the confusion only arises when people want to create a new way when the old one works perfectly and still makes a lot of sense in its true form. But, I doubt that distinction between Neutral and Basic would EVER confuse ANYONE. Unless you had a lobotomy.

I didn't see one point where Scrubs was confused? Personally all I saw was a lot of his opinions/arguments being basically ignored/taken out of context.

 

[Redact]

Dictionary meaning is useless when you consider how we understand the terminology. English is such a beautiful language in how we interpret a word and meaning.

I think the confusion only arises when people want to create a new way when the old one works perfectly and still makes a lot of sense in its true form. But, I doubt that distinction between Neutral and Basic would EVER confuse ANYONE. Unless you had a lobotomy.

I didn't see one point where Scrubs was confused? Personally all I saw was a lot of his opinions/arguments being basically ignored/taken out of context.

the idea of how we understand the meaning of neutral is assuming no one new will come, or your assuming that somehow people think that neutral means "plain, yet still favors different things"

I've been asked this more than once by newcomers
"Why is stage _____ a neutral stage? doesn't stage ____ favor this type of character?"
i told them about it, and the response i have gotten more than once for that is "oh, i though neutral stages wouldn't favor any character, because i thinks stage ______ favors this character, while stage ------ favors none"

just because we understand something, we cant assume everyone else does

also i don't think scrubs is confused, its just with how little he elaborates upon what he says doesn't really help half the time

when he says "If Eldin favors said characters so much why is it neutral??"
i think something like "does he mean that the other neutral stages don't favor characters so much? or does he mean that neutral stages shouldn't favor characters? maybe he is asking what makes it fit to be a neutral stage?"

i mean i could reply to each one of those, but a little wording on his side makes it a lot easier to reply to what he says

 

[Mic_128]

I guess it all boils down to your perception of how a neutral is classified in smash. And that seems to be a very varied opinion.

Which is the problem that is causing people to look at using a different name.

 

[King Kong]

I love you too Shaz <3
Lets marry?

lol NG7, I doubt you'd be the only one. I am all for random neutrals only infact probably most of the QLD players would be too! Either way thats all we ever seem to play !

Random neutrals is win.

peace out

 

[Sloth]

Well, the problem has arisen because of peoples discontent with discussing brawls stage options. We never had this trouble with Melee. So why now?

The thing is Redact I've also had similar new people ask me about stages, most notable at the mini Tas tournament I held a month ago. (We played 6 neutrals only, counter-pick stages banned btw)

They didn't get confused, it was quiet simple and then they understood perfectly after I explained. Even if you change the terminology to 'Basic stages' people will still ask 'Why is it called a basic stage? What constituents a basic stage? doesn't -insert character- have advantages, how is it basic?"

Regardless you get the same outcome because new people aren't familiar with what we use for our terms, but people learn. Its what we do.

Also with that example you gave Redact of Scrubs post, the example questions you gave basically all relate to one answer, which is the one he wanted. I'm not sticking up for Scrubs because we agree on a lot of points, I just think a few of you are looking for minute things to give reasons to ignore everything he said.

The FD run was a prime example.

 

[Redact]

does he mean that the other neutral stages don't favor characters so much?
i would talk about how the other stages aren't neutral

or does he mean that neutral stages shouldn't favor characters?
i would talk about how no stage within the game is dead set even, so we try to make it as even as possible

he is asking what makes it fit to be a neutral stage?
i would talk about how the basicness and lack of randomality would make it more fit to be neutral over other stages, also with dedede rule in place, lack of stage abuse


all 3 are totally different replies, thats the problem i am talking about

neutral implies the stage is fair, which it isnt, thats the problem with calling it neutral

basic implies theres not much to the stage, which there really isnt much to those stages

 

[CAOTIC]

Good to see the SA Smash scene have taken up the Rambo ruleset for their Streetgeek LAN Parties

http://www.streetgeek.com.au/portal/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1950

 

[Sloth]

Good to see the SA Smash scene have taken up the Rambo ruleset for their Streetgeek LAN Parties

So its basically QLD/NSW who disagree and SA/Vic who agree. Sooooo cute ^_^

Ok Redact, mind the amount of alcohol of consumed tonight I'll try my -probably- failed attempt at a reply.

does he mean that the other neutral stages don't favor characters so much?

or does he mean that neutral stages shouldn't favor characters?

Both these questions basically lead to the same result. I personally believe you are trying to articulate a response around defined parameters when they all end at a universal conclusion. It seems to be what happens when you guys have been arguing Scrubs post.

he is asking what makes it fit to be a neutral stage?
i would talk about how the basicness and lack of randomality would make it more fit to be neutral over other stages, also with dedede rule in place, lack of stage abuse

It is still goes to the same conclusion. And that is the basic definition of what we should classify and thus play as a neutral stage.

From my view point he is basically saying 'Why is Eldin a neutral if you favours certain characters in a distract way?' Because the other neutrals DONT favour characters in a drastic way in comparison. He is basically asking 'Why is a stage you Melb ppl consider neutral so drastic in comparison to the other neutrals?'

Scrubs tell me if I am wrong. ^^

neutral implies the stage is fair, which it isnt, thats the problem with calling it neutral

When you selected few have referred to neutrals you keep conflicting on character matchups, which of course lead to counter-characters. It has nothing to do with the stage. A neutral actually does exist. Maybe not in a pure form, but at least in a flawless form.

For more insight as to probably why our views contrast:

How me and scrubs see it (I presume pretty much the same- could be very wrong) is that a neutral stage is so --basic-- that its design doesn't allow for a decrease in characters potential or increase of what they can abuse. Now don't take that wrong, some characters still thrive on certain stages (which could be a neutral), its just the level at which they thrive is fairly low when its on a neutral. It essence a neutral stage should suit the majority of the caste.

basic implies theres not much to the stage, which there really isnt much to those stages

Basic is impossible in terms of stages. Here is why:
Some people would consider Hyrule basic as they are used to FFA with items on high. For them such a stage would be seen as a 'Basic' stage to them. It brings me back the whole perception of terminology on what we understand in our smash society.

I don't see no problem with people calling neutrals basic. Because I'll know what your on about. But when half the population is saying one thing, and the other half the other. It is a much more confusing environment for new people. But we learn and move on

Edit:
-- Doesn't anyone else see this as small text? *I r confused*

 

[CATS]

@sloth: what kind of ******** person would ask why a basic stage wasn't neutral? if it's called a basic stage then it in no way infers that it should be neutral. a neutral stage however could lead someone to believe that it is truely neutral.

no one ignores scrubs points and he has received many lengthy replies in response to his posts that address what he has written. if you want to say scrubs was not confused about FD truely being neutral which he has stated many times now that he believes it to be truely neutral towards all characters, then the only conclusion can be is that he cannot see the obvious advantages such a stage gives through his own limited vision. i am not saying scrubs is stupid though, perhaps he was just confused as to what is actually meant by neutral stages, as you have said sloth, we all just take it for granted that we know a neutral stage means a basic stage but perhaps there are those that just take it at face value that they are actually neutral and don't question it to understand the truth.

The thing is Redact I've also had similar new people ask me about stages, most notable at the mini Tas tournament I held a month ago. (We played 6 neutrals only, counter-pick stages banned btw)

They didn't get confused, it was quiet simple and then they understood perfectly after I explained. Even if you change the terminology to 'Basic stages' people will still ask 'Why is it called a basic stage? What constituents a basic stage? doesn't -insert character- have advantages, how is it basic?"

the one point that even you have agreed on sloth is that the neutral stages aren't truely neutral, why is it that you don't explain to scrubs about FD? :3

*edit*
basic stages are basic in their design, which is what ones like battlefield and final destination are. hyrule is obviously quite elaborate and complex in its design which leads me to believe that if someone was confused it would be because they're mixing up basic with common or favoured stages. "basic stage" is self explanatory but "neutral stage" isn't and misconceptions of what a basic stage is would be purely on the readers part and that's the best we can hope for, as you cannot convey your correct interpretation through a single word.

a stage can never be so basic that it neither disallows or allows an increase in a characters potential, the reason behind this is that each character has varied attacks, jumps, movement and so the make up for their preferred style CAN be benefitted greatly by the presence or the absence of basic features. an example of this is eldin bridge which despite this stage being perfectly flat therefore giving no character an outright advantage from the stage itself lacks the edges which benefits characters that can either camp well or push people off, and of course this works against characters that utilise the edge while the reverse is true on a stage like final or battlefield. the characters with the ability of flight naturally have a larger advantage where an edge exists as beyond the edge there is open space which they can freely act in but others are limited. what makes this not just their natural advantage is that we have no way to determine if that is the normal and most fair way for a stage to be as it is through our own opinion that we have come to take that as being the standard.

with your text size, go check the "view" tab then go text size and check what it's set to as it may just be set to small or your resolution of your screen might be larger.

 

[Sloth]

Question:

@sloth: what kind of ******** person would ask why a basic stage wasn't neutral? if it's called a basic stage then it in no way infers that it should be neutral. a neutral stage however could lead someone to believe that it is truely neutral.

Answer:

Basic is impossible in terms of stages. Here is why:
Some people would consider Hyrule basic as they are used to FFA with items on high. For them such a stage would be seen as a 'Basic' stage to them. It brings me back the whole perception of terminology on what we understand in our smash society.

Statement:

if you want to say scrubs was not confused about FD truely being neutral which he has stated many times now that he believes it to be truely neutral towards all characters, then the only conclusion can be is that he cannot see the obvious advantages such a stage gives through his own limited vision.

Answer:

How me and scrubs see it (I presume pretty much the same- could be very wrong) is that a neutral stage is so --basic-- that its design doesn't allow for a decrease in characters potential or increase of what they can abuse. Now don't take that wrong, some characters still thrive on certain stages (which could be a neutral), its just the level at which they thrive is fairly low when its on a neutral. It essence a neutral stage should suit the majority of the caste.

Statement:

we all just take it for granted that we know a neutral stage means a basic stage but perhaps there are those that just take it at face value that they are actually neutral and don't question it to understand the truth.

Answer:
^^ note a quote about.. four quotes or something up.


Question:

the one point that even you have agreed on sloth is that the neutral stages aren't truely neutral, why is it that you don't explain to scrubs about FD? :3

Answer:
^^ Note a quote about.. three or something up.

I am not sure if you were making your last post when I did mine, so recorrect me on that one.

Oh I do have one question tho Cats. Do you agree that I clearly understand where yours/Shaz/Redacts view points come from in some way?

I try my best to explain my position in relation to yours, but I never actually see any indication that you understand our position. From any of you. Just something which has made me curious.

 

[Redact]

i understand where you and scrubs are coming from, but i just believe 7/8ths of it is totally wrong

 

[Sloth]

You've broken it into parts! Amazing What are they? ^_^

I am interested in the 1/8th part quite a bit, and also the middle part. I like middle parts.

*I should go to bed.. why has my life deluded into late night smashboards.*

 

[CATS]

yeah my last post was made while you made your one, then i editted it while you made the following ones lol

i don't believe you have a good understanding of where we're coming from although i think it comes down to the fundamentals of our opinions being in disagreeance. refer to previous post for my comments regarding it.

while i don't claim to fully understand the basis of your logic, i do try and rebutt your points made through my own knowledge, opinion and explanations as to where i'm coming from so it should be visible from there that i am taking into account what you're saying and displaying a level of understanding from it. if you think i am misinterpreting something or not understanding your stance on things then please like your former post explain more clearly about it as i can only come to an understanding through in depth explanations. i also try and make such posts so as to grant you guys insight as to my own views/stance/basis of opinion.

this is directed at scrubs (i name you because you are like this and need to change if you hope to continue contributing to discussion) and anyone else that likes to try and "clarify things" in this fashion.
the type of posts that don't help anyone understand anything:
"X is the best/worst therefore things should go like this... if things aren't like this then it's useless"
"i think it's best to have just X, it's the most fair."
"allow everything because more stuff is more fair."
while those posts help us to understand what you want, if anyone is in disagreeance with you then they aren't persuaded to your opinion in the slightest since it holds no weight to it. (no evidence, examples, or explanations)

and since sloth told us what his view of a neutral is, i'll try and explain my view on it.
a neutral stage is a basic stage in form (both size and layout) that lacks features that serve to directly interfere with a match or that severely advantages a few characters over others.
of course it's also taken into account when a stage is basic despite a single easily avoidable stage hazard, as cutting back on stages needlessly isn't what should be desired to keep the game in its most pure form.

 

[Mic_128]

With everyone countering what everyone else says makes things so confusing >.< Time for a restart?

 

[Sloth]

lol, it isn't that confusing.

I'm just gonna make a small post atm, because I truly don't mind people calling a stage basic.

But I think your using the word 'basic' as a common misconception just like we are using the word neutral.
English isn't a black and white language of course. To me basic implys simplicity in design.
To others basic may imply something else, like I left with the Hryule example. I was just stating that people with a completely different smash upbringing won't have the same ideals as us. Of course naturally the stage isn't basic, but they don't view the game the same.
I've seen this and discuss with randoms about it. Tas has a lot of randoms.

I also bring myself when talking about this. For me, basic is a simply design that allows for best competition possible (simply isn't always best as we know). For my VIEW on basic stage designs, Edlin doesn't fit in. -inc long random useless senetence: It has a random boar who drops a bomb that blows up in the middle of the stage with walks offs that promote high level camping which a lot of characters thrive at in comparsion and being a big stage negates edge guarding while the middle when blown up is impractical to cross

For me, Eldin is far from basic. Its just a word, and a word when used needs guild lines and descriptions. People don't just hear it and say 'Oh ok that makes sense, lets trust them'

Anyways, when I get back to Briz on the 29th, I hope to discuss with Scrubs and form the QLD ruleset. That shall be fun !

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

I think Eldin is rather basic myself. If you're still not happy with the word basic - go for another word that we can all agree isn't misleading - set, agreed, promoted, initial, free, fuzzy-wuzzy... fark I don't know xD.

Sloth is starting a shop called "note a quote". He had better make a good income with it if he's to be my future hubby like he earlier proposed xD.

Now that the discussion has boiled down to deciding on a name the arguments seem less fruitful, so I'm going to bring up on last thing before the 'big one' this weekend:
Only recently did I discover the fact Falco can chain throw. Apparently he's not the only one either. I'll do some investigation into who can/can't chain because it's a little unfair to have the Dedede rule in place if it's not only Dedede who can chain infinitely. If anyone can spare me the effort of testing all potential chains out by giving me the info I'd much appreciate it - and we could possibly attempt to alter the Dedede rule to cover similar chains from these potential chainers too.

Another suggestion to discuss - pause and phones off during competition?

 

[Kulla]

Yeah...I was going to type a long post up...but sloth pretty much just covered most of what I was going to say, but I'll contribute a bit.

Cats you say that eldin is a neutral stage, which benefits no specific character. However you said in an earlier post:

Eldin bridge which despite this stage being perfectly flat therefore giving no character an outright advantage from the stage itself lacks the edges which benefits characters that can either camp well or push people off, and of course this works against characters that utilise the edge

Hence you say it most certainly does benefit a certain type of character benefits. Eldin is broken for other reasons too, first and foremost are the walk off edges, like you said, works well for people who camp well or have good horizontal kill moves, metaknight and snake are great examples of characters who can abuse this real good, getting kills at stupid percentages. Another thing is that the stage almost inspires camping, especially when the bridge breaks, person with the better projectile can start spamming away, once again giving a certain characters an advantage.

So how can this stage be a neutral?

A good half of that argument applies to castle siege....

 

[Sloth]

Quick comment to your bottom part Shaz:
Pauses off - I agree with that rule. However if both people agree to pause then you can to an extent(ie for only a minute or so). But we should set a rule that a decent reason has to be why. Like someone just got shot and the place is about to be bombed.. etc.. Because tournaments are tight schedules.

Phones.. hrm. As much as I'd like to say should be off (or on silent during a match etc..) or just banning answering your phone. The problem is that if a serious incident did occur and someone is trying to contact you then you need to answer. That is the main problem I see.

I never saw any problems with phones in Melee tournaments tho. ^^ So if you've experienced it at your ranbats I'd like to know.

 

[Mr. Phantasmo]

Hmm, with phones because you never know who or why you are being called (maybe because someone forgets to lock their keypad *looks at Cao*) so having your phone on silent or just vibrate (my favourite lol) sounds like the best option to me.

 

[CAOTIC]

vibrator johns, lol

 

[Suntan Luigi]

Phones should be switched to vibrate and should be picked up in case of emergencies. I always pick up phone calls in Ranbats so my opponent allows me to pause the game. Us VICies are II Good when it comes to pausing games in tournaments. No phone johns.
A) "My phone rang so I had to pick it up"
B) "It's not fair! I don't even have a phone."
C) "Hey what the Hell you comboed me in the middle of my phone call."
D) "Mum hold on a sec, my friend is doing a zero-to-death combo on me."

 

[Scrubs]

Woah haven't checked this thread in a while...

LOTS of posts.

I don't mind basic........ However basic does not mean simple!!!!!

Basic is the fundamental level of something... For example in chemistry the basic units of matter are quarks and leptons (not getting into superstrings) even though they are the most basic level of matter they are far from simple...they are extremely complex.

If you use the term basic you get into a whole lot of complex classifications.... e.g.

The most basic stage: FD
The most basic tri-platform stage: Battlefield
The most basic walk-off stage: Eldin(I guess?, least interference)
The most basic mono-platform stage: Animal Crossing
The most basic water stage: Ship
The most basic HUGE stage: Hyrule
The most basic lava stage: Brinstar

I could basically go on forever.....

I think Primary, Foundation, Set, Agreed may all be better options.

About my comment that has occupied a lot of the above posts....

I never thought Eldin should be a Basic/Neutral/Primary whatever stage....

Phil saying that it gives a huge advantage to Snake backed that up... Thats all I meant by it.

oh and.....

Pause - OFF

Phones - Up to the competitor, Definitely on silent though as not to distract your opponent and you can't answer it in the middle of a match wait until it is over and call them back.

Oh and Falco's chainthrow is never infinite, even against a wall.

 

[Bjay]

Of course phones should be on silent/turned off, or rather, not answered.

Sometimes we can just forget to put our phones on silent or turn them off, and it is a bit of a distraction during a match, but you can't really do much except just ignore the phone call.

I've had my phone ring a couple of times only with the total amount of tournaments I've been to, one was on silent (vibrations are distracting regardless, but I don't like turning off my phone, so I just dela with it), and the other was ringing, but luckily the match just finished.

I remember versing a person (can't recall his name) who had his phone ring during the match, and he paused the game and answered and it was like a 2 minute conversation. It felt like forever, though.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

No johns Bjay.

 

[Bjay]

But I won! Of course no johns

Ill save all my johns only for you when I lose to you

 

[Darkwing SykeDuk]

Phone calls take priority imo depending on who it is. Also if a player is eating migoreng, breaks between stock losses must be taken to eat it, so pause stays on <3