ATTN: What is wrong with this board? --> we're now planning a guide

[Kataefi]

What is wrong with this board?
_

I say this because there is a lot of tension, debates and general "my way or the highway" mentalities coming across in a lot of discussion. It's very bad.

EXAMPLES:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=235580&page=9
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8554962#post8554962
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=250544
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=252097
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244250&page=5

There's a reason I didn't name the threads. You can pick any on this board at random only to come across post after post of cocky and intolerable opinion.

This quote sums up a lot of things:

We [definitely] have some major communication problems on this board

_

So, what is this thread?

This thread is for people to post exactly what they think is wrong with this board.

• Be generic - I don't want posters ganging up on others - be specific about your point but don't name drop.

• Don't troll, and take this thread seriously - This is THE reformation thread where BIG changes are going to happen. This is everyone's chance to talk about CHANGES that they want for the better.

_

What am I thinking about the state of the boards?

My first problem lies in the TONS of broken record posts sweeping this board lately. The general flavour of these posts is that "Zelda is ****". I personally agree with this statement! However, I believe these posts have echoed 500 million trillion times, and it's boring to read. Derogatory character statements are fine. But once is enough, a million is too much.

My second problem lies in elitism and pride. This is MAJOR. Some posters feel they have something to prove, others feel like they have proven themselves already as good Zelda mains. Confidence levels on this board relate to these factors. You can tell when someone is being too **** sure of their opinion. These posters, on my observation, have these traits:

• They don't accept a conflicting opinion.

• They don't accept diversity - regions, metagames, good and bad players etc....

All these factors are subtly different wherever you go. If you play in one region and haven't travelled to others, you are in a 'bubble'. It's your metagame, it's your bubble. If you make a claim and someone of a similar status to you conflicts it, at least have the decency to be understanding. If tournament player A makes a bold claim and hasn't travelled to expand their opinion, and tournament player B makes a counter claim but hasn't travelled to expand their opinion either, then simply be accepting and move on. I feel both opinions should be weighted EQUALLY.

I feel these types of posters are allowed to be called out with questions and prods if they're imposing their opinion too strongly on the overall community and disagree with someone of a similar status to themselves. This is what we call debating. No, it's not trolling.

ATTN: I'm talking strictly tournament players here. Non-tourney experienced and wifi players can certainly have their say! But they must be respectful if their claims are countered by an experienced tourney player.

Those that have travelled have the added insight and to me their opinion is very much appreciated. I'm looking at you Snakeee and Ninjalink (and of course others I've missed).



_



So these are my current beliefs right now. I invite everyone to have their say. Remember to be fair and polite. No negative name-dropping. I also encourage everyone to suggest improvements or say if they have any problems. You can also PM me if you're simply too uncomfortable addressing what you really think. I am approachable!

 

[MrEh]

I notice that *insert particular member's name here* has posted in 80% of the listed threads.

COINCIDENCE? lol


(I myself have posted in about 3 of those listed threads, and barring the obvious one, it's possible that I am to blame for those arguments. Maybe.)

 

[Kataefi]

My bad Eh... I missed the edit.

Firstly... let's stray away from name dropping and highlight general problems we're having on the boards without specifically calling anyone out!

 

[KayLo!]

Oh, ****, word? I'm pretty sure y'all know I got tons to say, but for the most part, here're my personal issues with this character forum:

- Too many people base their knowledge solely or largely off of wifi. WIFI =/= OFFLINE. Like MrEh said in the DDD thread, you will suffer at least 6 frames of lag, usually more. In competitive play, that can make a large difference depending on the character.

Zelda in particular benefits from lag because it makes her less punishable, and one of her major flaws is that she is generally very punishable. Basing your opinion on wifi will probably give you an overly optimistic opinion on Zelda as a character.

"But I can play fine in lag." So what? If your opponent can't (and lots of people can't), that will still affect your games.

- Too many people play in crap regions yet think they know everything about the game. Sorry to be honest, but if you live in the cornfields of Wyoming, there's no way your metagame compares to major Smash areas. You can have all the technical knowledge in the world, but chances are that your Fox- MK- Snake- whoever-playing friends aren't as good as the players in established regions.

I know that people don't choose the region they play in. If you live in said cornfields, I'm not saying you can't have an opinion; however, when someone with better knowledge comes along, maybe you should listen instead of getting overly defensive.

- Too many people are just wrong but refuse to admit it. Not naming names, HOWEVER if someone thinks all but 5 of Zelda's MUs are even or better and that G&W is 45:55..... should you really be listening to that person? They obviously have a lot left to learn.

We're all wrong at some point, as I've said before. I'll be the first to admit that I've been at times. But when someone corrects you, accept it gracefully and move on. Don't get mad or defensive and counter with trolling.

Btw, this doesn't apply for opinions, of course. Just facts. Like, say, fall speed and how it relates to character weight.

- Too many people get butthurt over a serious tone. This I will speak on from my personal experience.

Trust me, I'm not so blind as to think that people don't have a problem with me. I come off as if I think I'm always right (heard it many times before), I speak -- type? whatever -- very assertively, and if I have a strong opinion on something, I will make **** sure that people know that opinion.

BUT. What's all the crying for? We're all grown people here. Just because I don't put and "lol" after every sentence doesn't mean I'm mad or trying to cut people down..... I just don't mince words when I'm trying to get my point across. But a lot of people on this board seem to get defensive as soon as somebody states their opinion in a strong manner without all the flowery bull****.

If you're wrong, I'm gonna tell you you're wrong and not hold your hand while I do it. If I differ in my opinion, I will counterargue. That's how debates go. Doesn't mean anybody's being attacked.

I see the same response to MrEh. Granted, he does troll, but even when he's making solid arguments, people cry that he's being so negative and so mean and blah blah blah.

The truth =/= negative. Zelda's a **** character, so most of the time, we'll be discussing her negatives because she's usually at a disadvantage. Get over it. If you'd rather talk about her positives, nobody's stopping you from posting -- just make sure you know what the hell you're talking about.

- Too many people post just to post. Prime example: the "Zelda's MU ratios" thread. Come on, now. I KNOW that many people don't have significant experience in every single MU.

If you'll notice, some people -- the smart ones -- posted only the ratios they know for **** sure. Others, like MrEh, posted explanations for the MUs they know better than others (I assume), then posted informed numbers for the rest.

Some of you literally pulled numbers out of your *** or parroted what you've heard before, and it's painfully obvious who did that.

One of you posted numbers that made no god**** sense whatsoever.

Protip: If you don't know, don't post. I say this out of love. We don't need false information here.... you're hurting yourself (by making yourself look dumb), you're hurting the current community, and you're hurting the new players of the future who will come here and look at these threads to learn.

No information is infinitely better than wrong information.

tl;dr: Don't be lazy. Go read dat ****.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'm not too sure what you're getting at with the links if it pointed out specific post then it'd make more sense.

I'm tired of people screaming Zelda's a bad character.
Tired of people screaming match up ratios for characters they main.
Tired of people screaming telling me to play better people
tired of people thinking their EXP or contributions to the board makes what they say law.
Tired of getting infraction.

Just to set the record straight I am a tourney play I've been to 4 tourneys although the majority of my Zelda EXP comes from online. I would of been to more but money is too tight. Also I hate having my opinion written off as me trolling just because it differs from what the majority think.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

One of you posted numbers that made no god**** sense whatsoever.

Guilty as charged with the MU numbers . I even put an edit lol. Just my honest, yet completely silly opinion.


Anyway, I do notice a lot of flaming on this board anymore. KayLo is right on this one, she's gonna disagree if she deems it necessary to disagree; it's not necessary for it to become a war, though I must say, I was fully entertained with the one between MrEh and KayLo.

This is a forum, people will disagree with you. If you don't like it, step away from the computer. Arguments will happen on a forum, especially in say, a MU discussion. If you can't be civilized, than that's fine, just keep it off the boards. No need to pointlessly argue at all.

It doesn't benefit the character and it doesn't benefit us.

 

[KayLo!]

it's not necessary for it to become a war, though I must say, I was fully entertained with the one between MrEh and KayLo.

Lol, that one entertained me too until he started the heavy trolling.

I don't mind arguing. And contrary to popular belief, I don't get angry when someone -- gasp -- disagrees with me. I just don't debate with sunshine and roses coming out of my ***.

And I don't like getting trolled.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Just would like to point out that a lot of pros play online have played online and are currently playing online. So for someone to say that match ups can't be learned from playing online that is truly false. There also have been online players who have placed high in offline tournaments bassem and samboner are prime examples. So generally bashing/ separating offline play from online playing is non sense IMO. 95% of the people who complain about WiFi aren't playing the game at a high enough level to have their play be dramatically reduce by online play. That's not to say there isn't an adjust that needs to be made or that some people can transition easier than others. But it's easier for people to john about online and use that as an excuse as to why they just lose online. I'll reference this post by steel.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7299720&postcount=1

 

[Half-Split Soul]

I thought of making a thread like this when Zelda boards was full of trolling and idiocy earlier. Then the situation got better and I never posted the thread. After that it's been steadily alternating between good and bad times.

Then I realized I certainly wasn't helping and eventually pretty much stopped posting.

 

[choknater]

lol man, character boards really do reflect the character

zelda is a princess who probably has really good etiquette and stuff

so when i come here everyone has fancy girly sigs and colorful fonts, and punctuates correctly

and has MONOCLE debates

over at the sheik boards

we just talk about how sheik is a ninja, and how her frame data *****, and how we say 'needle spam all day! chain camp! kill people with vanish!!!!! ahhh sh nair to jabs all dai" and we usually think we can win every matchup

makes me think twice about fusing the sheik and zelda boards

they are different characters after all!!!

sheik ***** ahhhhhh ****

in b4 'How dare you troll, troll!'

sheik 'y shud i lisen 2u ur just my altar ego'

anyway.

point i'm making is this: sheik boards are all friends cuz we find a common goal in trying to win. i agree with a spirit of optimism no matter what character you main, even if they are horrible. even though i get off on snakes/mk's all day, i know in my heart that sheik is mid tier and i'm winning uphill battles. that makes me more excited. don't you guys get excited when you beat snakes?

do u think 'i did it! i won!' or 'sigh... zelda sucks... the snake was bad =\'

come on my friends

you guys are my alter ego...



OH

and never let matchup "ratios" get to you. those are arbitrary, imaginary, and opinionated. in my opinion, sheik vs ic's and sheik vs pikachu is 0:100, so i counter pick them. and sheik vs ganon is 140:-40. sheik is probably around 35:65 against meta but i beat him anyway cuz i'm zelda with a manly body!!!!

fight the power.

 

[KayLo!]

110 views and 9 responses.... hm.

Guys, I strongly encourage posting. Don't be a *****.

Nothing's going to change if you don't state your opinion, and I know for a fact that every single one of you has something to say.

 

[choknater]

well maybe viewers dont wanna get caught up in the middle of it?

ahhh haha kaylo is right just speak up! :D we have a chance to actually takl about the inner workings and nuances of our community!

guys its a forum about a princess character

zelda

this is no drama jasmine or belle or ariel or w/e

this is zelda who gets kidnapped by ganon all dai and we have to save her

the serious business here needs to lighten up lolz

u guys need 2 start posting like me

btw i'm giong to frequent these boards mroe often since i'm using zelda a lot more lately

so dont be surprised if u see choppy and somewhat uneducated (but sometimes gemstones of brilliance) posts

 

[MrEh]

stuff

G-reg also mentioned something awhile ago.

He said that wifi and offline play are separate metagames. If you beat someone online, so what? That just means that you're better on wifi. If you beat someone in real life, so what? That just means that you're better in real life. Wifi does not equal real life skill. And vise versa.

We can say that wifi and real life play have no real differences. And wifi play has just as much bearing as it does in real life. However, that would be false. Lag changes everything. We can argue that it's almost a different game. I'm not talking about certain techniques being harder to do, because you can just adapt to the lag and move on. No...I'm talking about certain techniques being completely unviable on wifi, and flat out impossible to do.

If you're arguments are based mostly from wifi play, then it is possible that your arguments are not applicable to what we're even discussing. Being good on wifi doesn't mean that you're good in real life. And of course, vise versa.

 

[choknater]

wifi is legit man

get at me

ally, holynightmare, samboner all wifi stars

get at atomsk and adhd beasting on aib ladder

where u at mreh

'choknater that is not a valid form of argument'

get at me!!!!!

but anyway

i understand what ur saying mr eh haha

yea the metagames are completely different, but sometimes ppl should just dive in with a mindset of learning. u learn a lot of good tactical things when playing wifi :D and my sheik has improved a lot from it

its still legit for learning

 

[MrEh]

its still legit for learning

I never said that it wasn't. ^^

 

[choknater]

ah, i see yeah :D

maybe when u guys are debating this stuff and when it gets heated, almostlegendary maybe gets the idea that you're saying it's not legit whatsoever, even though that might not be what you're truly saying

 

[Kataefi]

I'm going to make a big post addressing some of the points raised in here - I can't right now so watch this space later. I'm still interested in what others have to say and remember I'm open to PMs, whichever's most comfortable for an honest opinion.

 

[Llumys]

I approve of this thread. This isn't the only board that needs cleaning up.

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

I also approve of this thread and choknater's comments, I think I said something similar in the vs DDD thread when I said we all need to balance our humility over playing a sub-standard character with the optimism needed to make bad (but not unwinnable, ****ing GaW) matchups work.

 

[KayLo!]

You're ignoring the fact that because Zelda's a bad character, we're inevitably going to spend a lot of time talking about her negative points and disadvantages. That's just how it is when you play a character that's not so good.

I understand that not everybody wants to focus on those..... and you're free to only bring up the positive if that makes you happy. Nobody's stopping you (you in general, not you you) as long as the information is true and valid.

But jumping down someone's throat for pointing out her disadvantages is counterproductive. If we talk only about sunshine and rainbows and "We can do it if we really try!" all the time, that's not going to win anybody any matches.

 

[Brinzy]

What's right with this board?

Placed in more serious wording: the problems of this board in particular are living and will not die until this board is dead. Specifically, this board has the wrong mix of people in general. If you just read this thread, you'd probably be able to pick out exactly what the problems are on this board.

A lot of things said in this thread don't address the board issues. People having limited knowledge is nothing new - listing this as a problem of the board is a sign of ignorance. People thinking for several months that Zelda hard countered G&W would be a valid case for this. (They never did, just so we're not muddling things.) There are people that play in amazing regions that know nothing. Again, that's not the issue with this board. That's something that is going to happen everywhere you go and it does not destroy boards itself, or even partially. Being a know-it-all when you don't know it all is a bad thing, yes, but that is hardly the trouble of this board, and really, pretty much nobody should be talking if this is truly the case.

If it weren't for the rules of this thread I'd put it in wording I'd like to use, but that's hard to do. I don't know how much more obvious I can make this.

 

[Veggie123]

Okay, I hope you guys'll believe me when I say I had a pretty long post pertaining to how even established regions experience an over abundance of characters, with a ton of other characters being underrepresented. My browser crashed last night though, so I decided to actually work on my paper. But here's a truncated version!

I don't really agree with the "top region knows all" mindset. Taking accounts from different regions is what I think the best option is since different MUs are run into more often depending on where you live. Player skill is very important, but even mediocre players can do better in a certain MU than good players if they know the ins and outs of the MU. (Yes, a lot of pros don't always know what to do against every character. And I don't blame them, since they're likely only accustomed to playing with only a certain amount of the cast in high levels of play)

Basically, I was going to say that the lower the tier list you go, there will be less credible sources from players (this is especially true if people only take high placers into account). Again, this is usually due to less people playing that character with even a smaller percentages of those people playing the character exceptionally well or even in tournament play. It also explains why there are huge variances between tier lists of different countries. I mean we can say that character X only does so well in a region since there's a distinct lack of any good character Y mains, but that's the thing, regions all develop differently.

I think we all know that the top/high tiers are pretty much situated at their spots since they DO make a sizable portion of top players in all regions. Mid tiers are generally mixed with some doing very well in certain places but it's usually not enough to push them out of that tier. Some low tiers also do exceptionally well, but clearly there are characters who are pretty warranted in that tier and others which may make you think that they're just lumped in there because no one has really tapped into that character's potential (I ain't talking about Zelda either, she's pretty low imo).

@Zelda boards situation

I personally think avoiding name dropping isn't the best route at this point. People who can't really take hints stay oblivious while others get the feeling that they're the ones getting burned. I apologize if I come off as a know it all, but I just try to draw a lot of my Zelda exp from what has and hasn't worked from who I've played. I'm not from the best region ever, but the top players here definitely aren't ones to scoff at and we get visits from the top OoS players from around here often as well so it's not like our community is limited to playing like the same 4 people.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You're ignoring the fact that because Zelda's a bad character, we're inevitably going to spend a lot of time talking about her negative points and disadvantages. That's just how it is when you play a character that's not so good.

I understand that not everybody wants to focus on those..... and you're free to only bring up the positive if that makes you happy. Nobody's stopping you (you in general, not you you) as long as the information is true and valid.

But jumping down someone's throat for pointing out her disadvantages is counterproductive. If we talk only about sunshine and rainbows and "We can do it if we really try!" all the time, that's not going to win anybody any matches.

I have to disagree. If you ever been to the Mario boards Falcon boards Link boards or Gannon boards. You'd swear their characters Was amazing they hype them so much it's ridic. I don't see people saying gannon a bad character drop him or learn someone else. Even if she is a bad character the fact remains she does have strengths to her that gives her decent match ups against certain characters.

I still don't see why the G&W match up is bad. No one has said anything for it to be bad and when I looked at the G&W boards they said the match up was so bad because Zelda has to approach. What does G&W have to force ZElda to approach? Which of G&W moves can't be covered by Zelda?

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Why are you starting a MU discussion here?

 

[Brinzy]

G&W has too many safe options against Zelda. bair, nair (positioning mostly), dtilt... really that's all he needs to work with. Killing her early and whatnot is just a bonus. The fact is that Zelda has too much trouble with priority that high that also has multi-hitting hitboxes and that type of range. She can hit him every now and then, but she knocks G&W away, which is pretty much resetting the spacing for him and she has to hope the player gets bored, because he can easily stay safe on shield against her. Powershielding is bleak as well because of the multi-hits.

That's most of the problem imo.

EDIT: Though HSS is correct, this probably should go elsewhere.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I just don't want to wade through all the crap any more.

Trolling and flaming has ruined this board.

Someone says something, someone else says something inflamitory or trolls for the sake of trolling and all of the sudden a flame war starts.

Some of us are too abrasive, some to oppinionated, some too sesitive, some too ignorant and some just plain disruptive.

As long as PEOPLE don't change, this board never will.

 

[Veggie123]

I'm going to be blunt for a moment. If people are just going to run away from the Zelda boards and hope everything will magically get better when they get back, then they need a severe reality check. Nothing's going to be different if people just avoid the problem, in fact it'll probably just get worse that way. The Zelda boards have been avoiding conflict for awhile now even when most people know what the problems are, but you hardly see anyone trying to step in and change things which is why these ongoing problems haven't died yet.

That's what this thread is for, change.

another edit: on a lighter note, I don't think there really are any down right jerks that post around here. there just seems to be a lot of ignorance and misunderstandings which cause blown out disagreements.

 

[KayLo!]

I personally think avoiding name dropping isn't the best route at this point. People who can't really take hints stay oblivious while others get the feeling that they're the ones getting burned.

I was gonna say something like this in one of my other posts.

Personally, I don't mind if, in this one thread, people wanna call me out or bring up issues they have with me. I don't ****s with it in other threads, but since the point of this one is to change things, I'm open to it.

I dunno how others feel about being called out by name, but I'm a big girl. I can handle it, lol, as long as it's done in a civil manner.

The Zelda boards have been avoiding conflict for awhile now even when most people know what the problems are, but you hardly see anyone trying to step in and change things which is why these ongoing problems haven't died yet.

Veggie speaks the truth. I tried to bring up some issues in the social thread before, but I guess my tone was too "mean" or whatever, and it just turned into a pointless argument, so I dropped it.

I agree that people on this board are a little too soft and a little too afraid of conflict. People immediately brand anybody who comes off even the slightest bit aggressive as offensive, negative, ill-tempered, mean, etc. Being aggressive just means you have strong opinions and might be a little stubborn. L2notcryovereverything and counter with intelligent debate.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I was gonna say something like this in one of my other posts.

Personally, I don't mind if, in this one thread, people wanna call me out or bring up issues they have with me. I don't ****s with it in other threads, but since the point of this one is to change things, I'm open to it.

I dunno how others feel about being called out by name, but I'm a big girl. I can handle it, lol, as long as it's done in a civil manner.



Veggie speaks the truth. I tried to bring up some issues in the social thread before, but I guess my tone was too "mean" or whatever, and it just turned into a pointless argument, so I dropped it.

I agree that people on this board are a little too soft and a little too afraid of conflict. People immediately brand anybody who comes off even the slightest bit aggressive as offensive, negative, ill-tempered, mean, etc. Being aggressive just means you have strong opinions and might be a little stubborn. L2notcryovereverything and counter with intelligent debate.

I hinted something like that in my other post. Like me getting called a troll for stating my opinion. However I do need to disagree with your notion of everyone getting upset with your post. I just tired off your **** as you do mine. Which is clearly evident by you not wanting to discuss the pika match up with me. I also think you put me on ignore. But the fact remains its not Kaylo being the person that needs to tell it how it is. It's the fact that you're constantly beating a dead horse and screaming your opinion to be fact. Then I get talked down to because the majority of my EXP comes from online. Then you cast online players aside as if its just online thaf makes them good. It's not just you but the majority of the smash counter. As for Zelda players being sensitive that makes sense. Anyways i lost whatever point I was trying to illustrate. LoL

 

[MrEh]

I dunno how others feel about being called out by name, but I'm a big girl. I can handle it, lol, as long as it's done in a civil manner.

In all honesty, when I think of "what's wrong with these boards?" Your name doesn't immediately come to mind.

I agree that people on this board are a little too soft and a little too afraid of conflict. People immediately brand anybody who comes off even the slightest bit aggressive as offensive, negative, ill-tempered, mean, etc. Being aggressive just means you have strong opinions and might be a little stubborn. L2notcryovereverything and counter with intelligent debate.

To put it simply, people get butthurt over every little thing.

Like me getting called a troll for stating my opinion.

You're doing it wrong.

It's the fact that you're constantly beating a dead horse and screaming your opinion to be fact.

Everything that KayLo says is not necessarily fact. However, compared to everything you say, it might as well be.

Then you cast online players aside as if its just online thaf makes them good.

We're not casting online players aside. We're casting stupid online players aside.

There's a big difference.

As for Zelda players being sensitive that makes sense.

Why mention Zelda specifically...

It's not just you but the majority of the smash counter.

...when you pretty much said that the entire smash community thinks like that? Mentioning Zelda was redundant, and honestly, seemed more like a not-so-subtle jab at this community.

Anyways i lost whatever point I was trying to illustrate. LoL

That's why we never listen to you. You never get your point across in a way that doesn't sound completely outrageous.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

In all honesty, when I think of "what's wrong with these boards?" Your name doesn't immediately come to mind.



To put it simply, people get butthurt over every little thing.



You're doing it wrong.



Everything that KayLo says is not necessarily fact. However, compared to everything you say, it might as well be.



We're not casting online players aside. We're casting stupid online players aside.

There's a big difference.



Why mention Zelda specifically...

...when you pretty much said that the entire smash community thinks like that? Mentioning Zelda was redundant, and honestly, seemed more like a not-so-subtle jab at this community.



That's why we never listen to you. You never get your point across in a way that doesn't sound completely outrageous.

I mentoned the Zelda boards because Ksylo did. I mentioned the smash community because that's the general consesus online = bad go to tournies. Also it's a bit hypocritical for you to say that about online players but when i named online players that place high offline you just quoted me as saying stuff. As for being outrageous that's just your opinion. Also different thoughts tend to be outrageous to some but normal to others. If i said the g&w match up wad 70-30 in g&w favor that wouldn't be an outrageous opinion to you. However the fact that people feel as though the match up is 70-30 is outrageous to me. But nevertheless because my opinion isn't that of the overwhelming majority it gets cast aside.

 

[KayLo!]

To put it simply, people get butthurt over every little thing.

Lol. Butthurt. <3 Yes, that's exactly it.

That's why we never listen to you. You never get your point across in a way that doesn't sound completely outrageous.

This is so true. AL, I know this is just the internet, and nobody expects you to type with perfect grammar or spelling all the time..... but the way you type makes it REALLY hard to understand your point half the time, and as a result, you come off as very ignorant in general. That affects how people view your arguments.

Like me getting called a troll for stating my opinion.

That could be affected by what I just wrote above.

Many times, you state your opinion in a way that comes off as trolling. Sometimes you say things so ridiculous and defend them so hard even when you're just wrong, it can't be seen as anything but trolling.

Then, for example, in the DDD thread.... I don't mind you disagreeing with me, but when you came out of the blue saying, "Well, what are you ranked?" it sounded like a personal attack or an attempt to rile me up. You explained yourself later, but a) I'd put you on ignore by that point, and b) the damage had already been done.

Then there's the fact that lately, you always get into how I "scream" my opinion and always think I'm right, blah blah. If you have an issue with me, PM me or something. Bringing it up in the middle of a MU discussion discredits your argument and makes you sound like you're going for some type of reaction (the definition of trolling).

However I do need to disagree with your notion of everyone getting upset with your post. I just tired off your **** as you do mine. Which is clearly evident by you not wanting to discuss the pika match up with me. I also think you put me on ignore.

I didn't want to discuss the Pika MU with you because you weren't debating intelligently. Every time I tried to tell you something, you countered with something that had nothing to do with the point at hand or disagreed based on false info.

It's also just confusing to argue with you because I can't understand you half the time. Asking you to clarify over and over gets tiresome.

I still do have you on ignore, btw, but for the sake of changing the boards, I'm reading your posts in this thread.

It's the fact that you're constantly beating a dead horse and screaming your opinion to be fact.

Screaming? I believe I do a fairly good job of staying on-topic and responding to different points that're brought up. I know you think I'm "always" talking about how Zelda's a bad character, but I disagree with that. Do I talk about her disadvantages a lot? Sure you right. But I usually bring up things she can do as well.

I said this to Kataefi: because I feel as though a lot of people overestimate Zelda, I'm naturally going to look like the bad guy, because I'm always going to be arguing that she's a little bit worse. If I felt that people underestimated her, it'd be a different story.

Also, I never present my opinions as fact. To you it may seem that way, but to be quite honest, you're wrong a lot. *shrug* If you'll notice in my debates with MrEh, sniperworm, Mars, and others, though, if it's simply a matter of differing opinions, I'll say so and raise the white flag once the discussion has run its course and started to go in circles.

Then I get talked down to because the majority of my EXP comes from online. Then you cast online players aside as if its just online thaf makes them good.

Sometimes, wifi gives you a false sense of how MUs are. See #1 in my first post.

Honestly, when I read your MU numbers, I was appalled. You had only 5 disadvantages for Zelda (2 of which were still even-ish), and the rest of the MUs were even or better. Sorry, but that's beyond having a "different" opinion. That's delusional. If her MUs were that good, she wouldn't be so low on the tier list.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Lol. Butthurt. <3 Yes, that's exactly it.



This is so true. AL, I know this is just the internet, and nobody expects you to type with perfect grammar or spelling all the time..... but the way you type makes it REALLY hard to understand your point half the time, and as a result, you come off as very ignorant in general. That affects how people view your arguments.

Really I didn't realize that.

That could be affected by what I just wrote above.

Many times, you state your opinion in a way that comes off as trolling. Sometimes you say things so ridiculous and defend them so hard even when you're just wrong, it can't be seen as anything but trolling.

Then, for example, in the DDD thread.... I don't mind you disagreeing with me, but when you came out of the blue saying, "Well, what are you ranked?" it sounded like a personal attack or an attempt to rile me up. You explained yourself later, but a) I'd put you on ignore by that point, and b) the damage had already been done.

Then there's the fact that lately, you always get into how I "scream" my opinion and always think I'm right, blah blah. If you have an issue with me, PM me or something. Bringing it up in the middle of a MU discussion discredits your argument and makes you sound like you're going for some type of reaction (the definition of trolling).

It wasn't a personal attack just an attempt to illustrate the difference in skill level between you and your opponent that's ranked in your state. A lot of time people allow match ups to be dictated based on experience from opponent with a large gap of skill between the two players. When the match up is supposed to be to players that know all their options.


I didn't want to discuss the Pika MU with you because you weren't debating intelligently. Every time I tried to tell you something, you countered with something that had nothing to do with the point at hand or disagreed based on false info.

It's also just confusing to argue with you because I can't understand you half the time. Asking you to clarify over and over gets tiresome.

I still do have you on ignore, btw, but for the sake of changing the boards, I'm reading your posts in this thread.

Not true. I asked you about the location where pika can camp Zelda at and be 100% safely. I thought Din's could counter camp then when I realized the distance you were talking about I begun to ask another question about NL. I don't see what was wrong with that.



Screaming? I believe I do a fairly good job of staying on-topic and responding to different points that're brought up. I know you think I'm "always" talking about how Zelda's a bad character, but I disagree with that. Do I talk about her disadvantages a lot? Sure you right. But I usually bring up things she can do as well.

I said this to Kataefi: because I feel as though a lot of people overestimate Zelda, I'm naturally going to look like the bad guy, because I'm always going to be arguing that she's a little bit worse. If I felt that people underestimated her, it'd be a different story.

Also, I never present my opinions as fact. To you it may seem that way, but to be quite honest, you're wrong a lot. *shrug* If you'll notice in my debates with MrEh, sniperworm, Mars, and others, though, if it's simply a matter of differing opinions, I'll say so and raise the white flag once the discussion has run its course and started to go in circles.

If we look back at the d3 vs Zelda discussion one of your post starts off with you saying "Zelda is a ****ty character" That isn't discussing her disadvantages at all. That's you just ****ting on Zelda for the hell of it. What makes me wrong a lot? Different play styles lend to different opinions and different results. I've seen some of you guys say oh Zelda has trouble landing LK on this character so it's a bad match up.



Sometimes, wifi gives you a false sense of how MUs are. See #1 in my first post.

Honestly, when I read your MU numbers, I was appalled. You had only 5 disadvantages for Zelda (2 of which were still even-ish), and the rest of the MUs were even or better. Sorry, but that's beyond having a "different" opinion. That's delusional. If her MUs were that good, she wouldn't be so low on the tier list.

Na it's not delusional and I do feel as though she should be higher on the tier list. However, natch ups a lone do not dictate your placing on the tier list. Tourney results play a huge part and Zelda is very under represented or playing in high numbers at lesser regions. Nor do I feel that people are playing her correctly.

 

[DTP]

lol man, character boards really do reflect the character

zelda is a princess who probably has really good etiquette and stuff

so when i come here everyone has fancy girly sigs and colorful fonts, and punctuates correctly

lol wtf! xD



Um, anyways, I never really found a huge problem with this board O__o
But I guess that's because I don't come here as often as the rest of you, even though I lurk here a lot.

And once we figure out the problem(s) here, would we be able to figure out a solution?
I mean, it's easier said than done to simply tell people to stop doing things that negatively affect this board.....

Just saying we might have to be patient when it comes to making things better around here.



My two cents .__.

 

[KayLo!]

Uhh... hard to quote you when you respond within quotes, but here goes. X.X

It wasn't a personal attack just an attempt to illustrate the difference in skill level between you and your opponent that's ranked in your state. A lot of time people allow match ups to be dictated based on experience from opponent with a large gap of skill between the two players. When the match up is supposed to be to players that know all their options.

First of all, TUSM and I aren't that different in skill level. He's a better player than I am, and if we're playing a serious match, 9/10 he'll beat me. But it's not like he goes around 3-stocking me.

At our last tournament, we placed the same. The only reason why I'm not even considered is that I don't go to enough tournaments to meet PA's PR requirement.

Second of all, while I do use my experience to supplement my arguments, I don't go around with the mentality of, "well, this person beat me, so their character must have an advantage over mine." TUSM's DDD regularly beats my Pikachu, but Pikachu has an advantage over DDD, and I know that. He's just better at mindgames, and most of the time, I play too aggressively and don't CG or camp enough. (He's also ******** lucky with getting Gordos; it's ****ing ridiculous. X.X)

Rarely will two people be of equal skill. That's too much to ask, especially when barely anybody plays Zelda in the first place. That doesn't mean I can't use my experiences to add to the technical knowledge I have.

Not true. I asked you about the location where pika can camp Zelda at and be 100% safely. I thought Din's could counter camp then when I realized the distance you were talking about I begun to ask another question about NL. I don't see what was wrong with that.

The way you "debated" was very stubborn and belligerent. I covered all of Zelda's and Pika's options the first few times I wrote about it, but you kept asking over and over and trying to prove me wrong when I'd exhausted every single way I knew of to tell you what I was talking about.

Plus you kept insisting that Din's could countercamp when I told you fifty million times that it couldn't. It was pretty frustrating. You weren't even debating, you were just disagreeing and asking me to explain myself over and over.

Whatevs, tho, it's in the past. Just letting you know why I stopped talking about it with you.

If we look back at the d3 vs Zelda discussion one of your post starts off with you saying "Zelda is a ****ty character" That isn't discussing her disadvantages at all. That's you just ****ting on Zelda for the hell of it. What makes me wrong a lot? Different play styles lend to different opinions and different results. I've seen some of you guys say oh Zelda has trouble landing LK on this character so it's a bad match up.

Zelda is a bad character. But whenever I say so, I go on to explain my reasoning.... I never just come in to **** on her, then leave. If it bothers you that much, just mentally ignore that one sentence. Not hard.

People who base MUs on the ability to LK the other character are dumb. I've never done that, so I can't speak on it.

Na it's not delusional and I do feel as though she should be higher on the tier list. However, natch ups a lone do not dictate your placing on the tier list. Tourney results play a huge part and Zelda is very under represented or playing in high numbers at lesser regions. Nor do I feel that people are playing her correctly.

Well, since you're playing her correctly, I look forward to seeing you place well in tournaments.

I know matchups don't dictate where a character is on the tier list, but a character with all neutral MUs would be higher than low tier. Because Zelda has a hard time with a majority of the cast, especially top/high tiers, she has a very slim chance of placing high in a tourney; because she has a very slim chance at placing well in a tourney, nobody uses her; because nobody uses her, she's low on the tier list.

 

[mountain_tiger]

- The joke of 'Down B is Zelda's best move'. It's only a minor grievance, but it get old really fast...

- When attempts at advancing the metagame are dismissed as being 'too situational' or 'not worth it'. Most of Zelda's metagame involves situational stuff. For example, with DTilt > drop-through Bair, it's not going to happen very often, but it's useful to have up your sleeve if the situation arises. Actually, this is more of a general smashboards problem...

- When you ask for advice on a tough matchup, and someone says, 'Pick MK lolz'. You could say that for ANY bad matchup that any character has. Yes, there may be little to no chance of actually winning, but if you don't have any idea how to fight them you have even less of a chance than that.

 

[zeldspazz]

- Too many people are just wrong but refuse to admit it.

- Too many people get butthurt over a serious tone.

I don't really agree with the "top region knows all" mindset.

Trolling and flaming has ruined this board.

Someone says something, someone else says something inflamitory or trolls for the sake of trolling and all of the sudden a flame war starts.

Some of us are too abrasive, some to oppinionated, some too sesitive, some too ignorant and some just plain disruptive.

As long as PEOPLE don't change, this board never will.

- When attempts at advancing the metagame are dismissed as being 'too situational' or 'not worth it'. Most of Zelda's metagame involves situational stuff. For example, with DTilt > drop-through Bair, it's not going to happen very often, but it's useful to have up your sleeve if the situation arises. Actually, this is more of a general smashboards problem...

Oh I just knew something was gonna come up like this T.T

Along with the above points which I highly agree with, and the whole wifi debate thing, heres what I think the problem is.


People need to sit back, relaxe, and actually think about what they are going to post. One huge problem with SWF in generally is people simply do not read everything they should, and then dont post intelligently. You need to remember. This is the internet. You really need to check what it is the other person is saying, read it over a few times and actually attempt to interpret what they are saying. All the time I see people joke around, or say something sarcastic, and immediately because some smartass who didnt read clearly starts flaming that person. I mean, if you really sit back and try to understand the tone of the person behind the words, instead of going immediately to flaming/trolling, do know how much better communication would be? Flame wars would be cut down, and overall it would be more of an enjoyable discussion. Dont assume because someone simply comes in and counters your arguement and what say that they are attacking you or making you look like a fool. 9/10 times they are actually trying to help you learn something or correct you in your thinking but instead you take it as an attack and starts this whole flame war. Also understand that when you refuse to accept youre wrong and just keep going on and on and on and on and on when you counter arguement is clearly giving more experience and more convincing facts, then just shake it off and admit that maybe youre doing something wrong. Nobody knows everything and only an open mind will gain wisdom.

I dont like it when the board fights. It makes me feel uncomfortable, makes the board look foolish/unapproachable, and is just downright stupid.

Thats all I have on the subject right now.

 

[Brinzy]

Another problem with this board is the refusal to accept blame.

 

[KayLo!]

Another problem with this board is the refusal to accept blame.

HMMM, I wonder who you could be talking about.

Oh, ****, can't pull the wool over your eyes, can I?

(In all seriousness, I already said you can call me out, and I'm 90% sure you have a few things to say to me after the Marth/ROB thing.)

 

[choknater]

Hm. when u guys start talking srs business i stop reading posts so i cant really reply properly

sry! i have no more input in this thread besides loosen up and lighten up

ZEHAHAHAHAH