AT / Mechanics Compilation

[Overswarm]

The sarcasm emote is " "

 

[Neo Zero]

To add to the Robin thing, I was curious, and it doesn't seem to be JUST ZSS who's footstool interacts in this way. I was able to get similar results with Ganondorf footstooling Robin right above the ground. It'd appear something about the tumble animation that low to the ground causes this glitch. Even footstooling Robin in the air has a sort of weird frame skip animation for the one who did it.

EDIT: Also able to do it with MK. It's definitely something about Robin's footstool tumble animation that causes the glitch. Even footstooling in the air you actually don't really hop up unless you hold the button.

 

[Hylian]

Which thank god isn't gamebreaking. It's something that will be unfortunate about playing Robin, but probably not something anyone will need to enforce through rules.

 

[Zigsta]

So are we thinking that the reason the ZSS infinite worked in the first place is solely because of Robin's footstool animation? If that's the case, I'm really curious what other characters can do following a footstool on him(her). Bowser Bomb, please.

 

[Neo Zero]

This is an interesting glitch to be sure. Not everyone can do it even. So far ZSS, Zard, Ganondorf and MK could do it, while Shulk and Jr couldn't. Mega Man too....interesting so far any vet can, but no newcomer can. I'll try and compile a list of it soon.

 

[False]

Has this infinite been thoroughly tested with the rest of the cast? If no one else has done it I'll try it soon.

 

[Neo Zero]

Ok, went through everyone (except Mii's, I'll make some later) and got a list of whos foot stool does this on Robin's and who's doesn't.

Works: Charizard, ZSS, MK,Robin, Ganondorf, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Wario, G&W, Tink, Sheik, Zelda, Link, Diddy, DK, Pit, Ike, Marth, Palutena, Kirby, DDD, Little Mac, ROB, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Pikachu, Fox, Ness, Falcon, Villager, Olimar, WFT, Dark Pit, Lucina, Sonic

Doesn't: Jr, Shulk, Mega Man, Mario, Rosalina, Samus, DHD, Greninja, Falco, Pac Man

Sort of: Doc Mario

The most interesting thing is Doctor Mario. While I can't duplicate that landing like with everyone else, he also falls in the line of the characters who work in that he doesn't pop up from a Foot Stool, so he can easily combo after anyway.

 

[NickRiddle]

It's similar to ZSS's infinite on ROB in Brawl.
D-smash > turn around > footstool > instant dair (autocancels on frame 1 so you land) > paralyzer to lock > etc.

I've heard it only works on Robin, MAYBE on ROB since it worked on him in Brawl.
If it's not universal, I see no reason to ban it. Nobody banned that type of stuff in Brawl

Instant throws are in

Brawl pivot grabs are still there, only exclusively from a run since out of a dash are pivot tilts (at least I haven't been able to pivot grab out of ID)

Pretty sure you can if you input grab and then back. It's like a b-reverse with a grab, and it works that way in Brawl as well.

Ok, went through everyone (except Mii's, I'll make some later) and got a list of whos foot stool does this on Robin's and who's doesn't.

Works: Charizard, ZSS, MK,Robin, Ganondorf, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Wario, G&W, Tink, Sheik, Zelda, Link, Diddy, DK, Pit, Ike, Marth, Palutena, Kirby, DDD, Little Mac, ROB, Jigglypuff, Lucario, Pikachu, Fox, Ness, Falcon, Villager, Olimar, WFT, Dark Pit, Lucina, Sonic

Doesn't: Jr, Shulk, Mega Man, Mario, Rosalina, Samus, DHD, Greninja, Falco, Pac Man

Sort of: Doc Mario

The most interesting thing is Doctor Mario. While I can't duplicate that landing like with everyone else, he also falls in the line of the characters who work in that he doesn't pop up from a Foot Stool, so he can easily combo after anyway.

Wait, these characters all automatically land?

 

[Neo Zero]

It's similar to ZSS's infinite on ROB in Brawl.
D-smash > turn around > footstool > instant dair (autocancels on frame 1 so you land) > paralyzer to lock > etc.

I've heard it only works on Robin, MAYBE on ROB since it worked on him in Brawl.
If it's not universal, I see no reason to ban it. Nobody banned that type of stuff in Brawl



Pretty sure you can if you input grab and then back. It's like a b-reverse with a grab, and it works that way in Brawl as well.



Wait, these characters all automatically land?

If done directly over the ground (same height as in the ZSS infinite) yes. I got it to work on all of them EXCEPT Doc, but he followed the wonky footstool momentum they all did from footstooling Robin.

 

[NickRiddle]

Damn, that's even easier.
Does anybody else in the game have a move that puts you barely in the air at mid/high %s? If so, they can also infinite him.

So happy ZSS's d-smash still puts people in the air.

 

[Raziek]

Why did this have to happen to Robin?

 

[NickRiddle]

Why did this have to happen to Robin?

MU is too good is why.




Also, ESAM noticed that you stop fast-falling if you do an aerial. That seems pretty good as a fake out for characters that have a big speed difference between their normal and fast-falls.

 

[Overswarm]

Oh, I forgot to mention this:

I haven't tested it extensively, but aerials actually have less lag if you fast fall. Not necessarily all, but at least some. You can do a fast fall u-air with megaman and then double jump u-air as a combo, but you can't do so by short hop u-air to double jump u-air. Test it out some.

 

[NickRiddle]

A couple more things:
You are not invulnerable during your ledge-snap, you need to grab onto the ledge. I hit somebody who snapped from above the ledge with Bowser Jr. d-tilt, and it hit them before they actually grabbed it.
Jump-cancelled item throw is still in the game.
Jab-cancelling is actually in the game, the timing just varies greatly from character to character. Ed, ScaryLB, was doing it with Sheik in training mode. Not sure how good it is with other characters, but Sheik's looks to be almost Brawl's speed. With more hitstun, it looks like jab1 > jab 2 > jab-cancelled 1 looks like a combo for a bit of %.

 

[Overswarm]

oh, invincibility for getup attack ends BEFORE the getup attack animation occurs. You can hit an opponent out of their getup attack with 100% consistency with all the characters I've tried -- it may not be every character, but all I've tried so far. Megaman for sure, sadly.

 

[Neo Zero]

Maybe I'm crazy, but it appears to me you can actually dash cancel certain jabs. For example, while you can jab cancel both Ike's jab 1 and jab 2, it appears to be faster cancelling to dash out of the animation though.

 

[Overswarm]

Oh, fun fact:

Little Mac's fully charged over-B vs. Dedede's neutral B by the ledge = Little mac hitting Dedede and then Mac goes plummeting to his death.

 

[Sethlon]

I've gotten a ton of ledge trump -> bairs to work. Pretty tight window, but it does seem to be guaranteed.

 

[Neo Zero]

I've gotten a ton of ledge trump -> bairs to work. Pretty tight window, but it does seem to be guaranteed.

Tested it more myself as well. The timing is strict (which isn't helped by the circle pad) but it does seem to be guranteed. Whether the frames between certain chars needs to be determined of course, but anyone I tried it on showed no signs of being able to do anything, air dodge included, this setup.

 

[Krynxe]

Tested it more myself as well. The timing is strict (which isn't helped by the circle pad) but it does seem to be guranteed. Whether the frames between certain chars needs to be determined of course, but anyone I tried it on showed no signs of being able to do anything, air dodge included, this setup.

How about megaman's up-b or other similar specials that can be used to break combos? The ledge trump mechanic should not put the opponent into a hitstun where this would work, but it's still worth confirming that it does not work

 

[Neo Zero]

How about megaman's up-b or other similar specials that can be used to break combos? The ledge trump mechanic should not put the opponent into a hitstun where this would work, but it's still worth confirming that it does not work

That's a good thought. However, I'm not in the position to test it myself. Anyone in the IBR have access to 2 3DS's that can test that?

I did however do it just as said, and Mega Man can Up B IMMEDIATELY after being kicked off the ledge.

EDIT: I tried a couple of other characters combo breaks I tested previously with @#HBC | Bunzy the other day. The only one that produced results was actually Mega Man's Up B. Something about Rush instantly breaks him out of the situation. Even Sonic's spring doesn't work.

 

[NickRiddle]

So, I haven't read this anywhere, but grabs no longer have any sort of armor.
If a move and a grab happen around the same time, the grabber gets hit, and the grabee takes a little bit of damage.

 

[Neo Zero]

It also causes some wonky knockback situations for both parties.

 

[Sethlon]

Tested it more myself as well. The timing is strict (which isn't helped by the circle pad) but it does seem to be guranteed. Whether the frames between certain chars needs to be determined of course, but anyone I tried it on showed no signs of being able to do anything, air dodge included, this setup.

Actually, it seems that if your opponent buffers any of their ledge options (IE ledge stand up, roll, attack, etc) that those options will go through without you actually "trumping" them and forcing them off the ledge. =/

 

[Krynxe]

@ NickRiddle That's interesting, and will definitely play into the effectiveness of grabs.

Are grab releases similar to Brawl's? Air/ground release mechanics and whatnot. I hope that there aren't any grab release gimmicks that hurt the viability of specific characters again

 

[Neo Zero]

Actually, it seems that if your opponent buffers any of their ledge options (IE ledge stand up, roll, attack, etc) that those options will go through without you actually "trumping" them and forcing them off the ledge. =/

I think it depends. I'm fairly sure once they stop flashing they'll be kicked off. Like you said though, if they do anything before that flashing ends it'll not activate the trump.

However, iirc, if you plank the ledge, you don't get invincibility back until you reach the ground once more. So if you went for the ledge while they're planking, you'd maybe instantly trump them. In theory anyway.

 

[NickRiddle]

@ NickRiddle That's interesting, and will definitely play into the effectiveness of grabs.

Are grab releases similar to Brawl's? Air/ground release mechanics and whatnot. I hope that there aren't any grab release gimmicks that hurt the viability of specific characters again

I know Wario still gets air-released, but he can act faster.
ZSS gets uair/up-b, didn't really test it that much though.

 

[Overswarm]

Actually, it seems that if your opponent buffers any of their ledge options (IE ledge stand up, roll, attack, etc) that those options will go through without you actually "trumping" them and forcing them off the ledge. =/

This is true; you can hold on simultaneously and they can put in the inputs during that time frame.

What's more, we were BOTH wrong/right!

Certain characters CAN jump off the ledge faster than others (!!!) and EVERY character I've tested so far can jump off the ledge faster when they have no invincibility at all. Pikachu has a much faster time than Megaman in the first place, but if he ledge steals from megaman after already having received his invincibility, he gets a free bair before megaman can air dodge.

With ledge invincibility, someone like Mario was starting his getup attack or roll or drop all at the same time as megaman's air dodge started.

I don't have the full game yet so I can't really test, but I suspect that certain characters may have ledge guard guarantees with invincibility, more so without, and some with none at all.

Fortunately for those not wanting an "auto" edgeguard, you can prevent a trump by simply inputting a jump command, as the jump command is unpunishable in any capacity I've seen so far. Roll and standup+roll also seem to work but seem to allow shield pressure. Get up attack gives the trumper time to actually attack the person doing the getup attack.

I'll test more when I can.

 

[Overswarm]

Double post edit:

Pikachu was faster than Mario and Megaman, Mario and Megaman both could not drop off the ledge and bair an opponent megaman spamming air dodge.

Kel reminded me that in Brawl Pikachu could act in 26 frames and every other character 28, so it may be that there is a similar difference with Pika in this one. I can't check other characters as I don't have a japanese 3DS though.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That Robin footstool glitch.

Is anyone else in the cast affected like that?

 

[NickRiddle]

Nope, ROBin is the only one.

 

[Strong Badam]

Kel reminded me that in Brawl Pikachu could act in 26 frames and every other character 28, so it may be that there is a similar difference with Pika in this one. I can't check other characters as I don't have a japanese 3DS though.

I think it's significantly less than 26. I in fact played Pikachu in Brawl specifically because his ledge grab animation was shorter than everyone else, and didn't throw off my Melee timing.

 

[Overswarm]

I think it's significantly less than 26. I in fact played Pikachu in Brawl specifically because his ledge grab animation was shorter than everyone else, and didn't throw off my Melee timing.

You are correct!

have some ledge frames for Pikachu. Right when he grabs the ledge he has 34 frames of invincibility and can let go on frame 14. I don't know if it's the same for every character, but I hope that helps.

Edit: Okay, I just tested this with every character and coincidentally Pikachu has the least ledge grab lag and everyone else has the same. Tethers also have less ledge grab lag. These are all just normal ledge grabs. I did not test with up b, but it doesn't seem to make a difference.

Pikachu
Invincibility Frames - 34
Ledge Grab Lag Frames - 12
Ledge Drop Frame - 14

Everyone else
Invincibility Frames - 46
Ledge Grab Lag Frames - 24
Ledge Drop Frame - 26

Tethers
Invincibility Frames - 23
Ledge Grab Lag Frames - 1
Ledge Drop Frame - 3

http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-frame-data-directory.258564/

 

[NickRiddle]

This is really interesting.

 

[Overswarm]

....wavedashing confirmed? :|

 

[Raziek]

Somewhat unsurprisingly to me, Robin's dash-pivot length is awful.

 

[Overswarm]

Did some basic Villager dair/uair testing.

100 dairs, 100 u-airs, all done in sandbag mode.

VILLAGER Dair Uair
AVG 2.04 2.13
1s 30 28
2s 36 31
3s 34 41
StD 0.803025 0.82456


Since it's a count of 1s, 2s, and 3s out of a hundred the amount shown is the rough % chance you'll get that thing. This isn't conclusive until we even more tests, but it's looking to me that it's basically a 33% chance to get a 1, 2, or 3 turnips. Meaning random.

I have no idea if staling works differently between the three, although I have recently found that staling just doesn't effect certain moves. Kel found that Megaman's metal blade doesn't ever lower in damage (!) and some have said Link's jab also does not.

Villager's dair with 3 turnips also spikes if you hit with the opening hitbox / base of the turnip and has NO horizontal movement at all -- a cross up dair can lead to a forward smash combo at certain % if you hit with the spike and they do not tech.

Also Villager's side taunt is the best taunt I have ever seen.

 

[Overswarm]

Aaaaaalso

Stale moves, tested with MM's u-smash. Went from 16% at maximum to minimum 8%. Mega vs. Mega.

At full freshness, kills somewhere between 130-135%. At maximum decay, kills at 168% pre-hit.

If you have a weakened usmash it will not kill at 135% threshold but WILL kill if you attack again immediately. This is different than in Brawl, as moves seemed to get much weaker.

I'd like to later do some distance testing with megaman's fully charged f-smash, but can't take video of my 3ds >_>

 

[Overswarm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqr1JJsDZGQ&list=UUCmVBguN9wIzz3YUOKZVjyQ

Yay...

Yoshi can do a super jump that sends him up in the air for 11 seconds, 9 of which he is out of reach for most characters.

 

[Shaya]

Apparently ZSS's infinite on Robin was from a custom laser as well?
If the list of glitches/unfavourable results of custom specials keep coming up this isn't going to look good for having them legal, unless we somehow are fine with having a banned custom moves list.... Oh dear.

So wait... the custom special spawns a spring ala Sonic/Megaman? Can't people follow him up there?