Assembly of Unfamiliar Information: Give Jeepy Something to Test!

[Popertop]

could you follow up with a Ftilt-AS?

 

[indianunit]

Jab Jab Double Team seems to be situational. It all depends on if your opponent decides to attack back or not after the second jab. I'll try it when i get home though to see if it works.

 

[Popertop]

you could double jab and do nothing to condition them to think it's safe, and then they try to retaliate, WHAM, Double team.
and then you follow up the jabs with FP when they do nothing.

 

[salaboB]

Jab Jab Double Team seems to be situational. It all depends on if your opponent decides to attack back or not after the second jab. I'll try it when i get home though to see if it works.

All uses of double team are situational, that's just a fact of the move.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

*Updated with Frames for Air Dodge and Grab. Almost done!*

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So I had a chance to play one of my friends on my break today. I learned a couple of thing. First, this works better when they are at higher percentages. You don't want to do this if they aren't knocked up into the air. Also, obviously, different people do different things. Some people will DI away, and some will try to attack. That's why I think Popertop has got the right idea. I think pausing for a split second before activating Double Team might make it a little more efficient.

All uses of double team are situational, that's just a fact of the move.

This is exactly what I was going to say. There is always a lot of risk involved when using this move. Obviously, it will not work every time. Like I said, this is more of a mindgame than a technique.

 

[PSYCHE]

You forgot the frames for hitbox retract on DT. Those are the frames are really important, especially with what we are talking about.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Alright, people. I've just finished all of Lucario's frame data! *Wipes sweat off forehead*

If I'm missing anything, please tell me.

 

[Greenpoe]

When you do extreme speed, if you're on the ground and immediately push down, Lucario will move forward. BUT, if there is a ledge in the way, Lucario will automatically grab the ledge!

Sorry if this is old.

 

[Pentaoku]

If you jump and immediately double team, double team will create a much louder noise and it will create more flashing stuff. Dunno if it effects anything. You can do it by holding down, jumping and double teaming instantly.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

When you do extreme speed, if you're on the ground and immediately push down, Lucario will move forward. BUT, if there is a ledge in the way, Lucario will automatically grab the ledge!

Sorry if this is old.

Yeah, this has already been discovered. It's called ExtremeSpeed edgehog. It can also be done off a platform.

If you jump and immediately double team, double team will create a much louder noise and it will create more flashing stuff. Dunno if it effects anything. You can do it by holding down, jumping and double teaming instantly.

^Added this + my thoughts on it.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Guys, I've just stumbled upon a pretty significant technique for Lucario. I am very excited about it. I'm currently making a video of it, which I should have up sometime next week. I'm also making another video, which I should have up even sooner.

 

[Pentaoku]

Guys, I've just stumbled upon a pretty significant technique for Lucario. I am very excited about it. I'm currently making a video of it, which I should have up sometime next week. I'm also making another video, which I should have up even sooner.

WHY MUST YOU KEEP US IN SUSPENSE!? T_T

In any case, thanks for the videos you plan to upload, and thanks for putting my DT tidbit in.

 

[Trapt497]

lol jeepy feeds on our torture to know what he's talking about...

lol jk. Hows that video comin?

Also, on that topic of jab>jab>double team, I personally would rather force palm. But this is very interesting...i think that we could come up with any combination we wanted that gets followed up by jab>jab. We just have to be creative.

I like popertop's idea of jab>jab>ftilt>fully charged Lucario Aura Sphere owng. Yes, poper, you could follow jab jab up with that as long as they had enough damage to get knocked back far enough with the ftilt.

God...we could win a whole match with a zillion different jab jab combos!!! Lol.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

On the subject of the jab->jab->DT

it's a hell of a lot of fun to do and is one of those cases where lucario can actually take a hit. They way I've done it for awhile (****, i was going to add this idea, but i was beat by a lot) is i AA and see what my opponent does right after, if i take a fair or nair to the face, the next time im definitely doing the AAA combo, next time DT, and then after the DT they'll probably be retreating so i follow with a generic fair->fair->nair combo.

taking the ~10% to set up that mindgame is worth it imo

edgecancel (completely speculation, probably 100% wrong):

i think it happens because at the ledge lucario, and all characters of course, go into the "OMG I'm gonna fall!" animation, but in this case you hit in the position where you are 50% grabbing the ledge, 50% almost falling. That's probably why you always get that short delay. Or it could just be that the bounce from hitting the floor hit's you at a 45 degree angle or something and instead of going forward you sorta retreat (like when you throw a tennis ball at the merger of where the wall and floor meet, you know what im talking about-hopefully)

--I really need help with my uses of FP, i love it, but i can never use it properly, it's just not an instinctive move for me--

 

[Nodrak]

I've got it!
jab > jab > extreemspeed! It's unstopable!!

For FP, just go into training mode, start with some standing npcs, then walking ones. Just to get the feel of where it grabs. If you're missing a lot, you're either too far away, or too close.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Trapt497: I worked on the video a lot last night. It should be up at the least by wednesday. I must say, they're not "advanced" techniques, but in MY opinion, they make Lucario a lot better.

betterthanbonds9: Your theory definitely seems plausible. Here's what some one else thinks of it.

Well I haven't done any edge cancelling or whatever but I've got a good idea of what's causing all of the nonsense around edges. Slightly above any edge that you can grab on to there is a secondary invisible ledge that has very strange effects on different characters. With Ness and Lucas if you hit the secondary edge with PKT2 on the right side of some stages you can reflect it, keeping the hitboxes and just sending him in weird directions. It also can cause PKT2 to go straight through platforms you can go through the bottom of (like on delfino) and completely go through the sweetspot on the left side of regular stages. The secondary edge juts out from the stage just slightly. I don't know exactly how it's causing this edge canceling thing but I'm almost positive its the same thing causing it as the weird PK Thunder behaviour.

Nodrak: Oh my God... I just went and tested this...Lucario is top tier!!!

 

[betterthanbonds9]

one thing i've noticed with lucario is that his quick roll can almost make him do a waveland

no doubt this has been noticed before, but i didn't see it here....so I figured why not see how the reactions go

-what you do: as you are close to the stage (helps a lot if you're fastfalling, but is in no way necesary) you do a midair dodge. You dont need to hold it, it helps save some frames if you dont. As soon as you hit the ground, hit left, right, or down. Down will spotdodge, the others will roll. It does the same thing as when you press shield at the same time as the control stick for that instant-roll. Of course this is merely for mindgames, but the ability to get space (or close the gap) can start a new combo for you right there. The best case I've done is airdodging the fsmash from marth, rolling behind him and opening up the dthrow->double fair->ftilt combo on him. On retreats, a fully charged AS to the face is fun, same with spotdodges

Also, lucario can benefit from the airdodge as a bit of a lag canceller. If you start the airdodge earlier or if you wait a frame or 2 on the ground, you can open it up into a stutterstep fsmash with no lag. Not sure if this is really beneficial or not to a regular landing, but i just noticed this after i failed a couple times to do the waveroll.

is this at all useful or is it just obvious info?

 

[Nodrak]

The airdodge to land-dodge has been mentioned before (on the Lucario boards and others as well), it was widely discarded because people were trying claim credit and call it an advanced technique when all it is, is just rolling after you land. It's still useful though, not everyone thinks to do this =P

 

[betterthanbonds9]

The airdodge to land-dodge has been mentioned before (on the Lucario boards and others as well), it was widely discarded because people were trying claim credit and call it an advanced technique when all it is, is just rolling after you land. It's still useful though, not everyone thinks to do this =P

of course, in hindsight i should've looked at the advanced technique sticky in the tactical forum, but whatever. Apparently it's called SHADing and can remove lag from the landing getting you that extra frame even if you just attack. Im definitely going to check how much this helps my approaches the next few games i play, but who knows how useful it can actually be. How did Jeepy figure out the frames? I might try to see if this helps at all with the jabs or even a landing utilt combo frames

 

[Greenpoe]

of course, in hindsight i should've looked at the advanced technique sticky in the tactical forum, but whatever. Apparently it's called SHADing and can remove lag from the landing getting you that extra frame even if you just attack. Im definitely going to check how much this helps my approaches the next few games i play, but who knows how useful it can actually be. How did Jeepy figure out the frames? I might try to see if this helps at all with the jabs or even a landing utilt combo frames

SHAD'ing doesn't remove lag, just lets you abuse the buffer system by allowing you to start your attack immediately on landing.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

SHAD'ing doesn't remove lag, just lets you abuse the buffer system by allowing you to start your attack immediately on landing.

soooo.....it doesn't remove lag, but you attack immediatly by taking advantage of a system that would slightly delay you?

what? Sounds to me like it shortens the time between landing and attacking. Those are frames that i would say would normally be there, now they aren't.... Unlike l-cancelling this doesn't shorten move delay because you need to air dodge...just shortens landing lag

how did i get this wrong before? And couldn't it still be useful for a quick approach stepdodge->grab?

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Oh, Jeez, people. I was just about to upload the video, and I was messing around with it, and found out it is much deeper than I had originally expected. I did something really weird, so I'm going to take some time and try and figure it out, and if I can't, I'll post a video of it asking for some help.

Haha, sorry guys, I'm gonna have to keep you in the dark for a little while longer. : )

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Oh, Jeez, people. I was just about to upload the video, and I was messing around with it, and found out it is much deeper than I had originally expected. I did something really weird, so I'm going to take some time and try and figure it out, and if I can't, I'll post a video of it asking for some help.

Haha, sorry guys, I'm gonna have to keep you in the dark for a little while longer. : )

:rocket:hainsaw::rocket::rocket:hainsaw::rocket:hainsaw::rocket::laser::laser::laser::laser::smiliegor:smiliegor:smiliegor:smiliegor

isn't the option of posting it and getting public opinion more efficient?

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Well, the thing is, I'm kind of a perfectionist. I don't like the thought of having an educational video that shows something I don't even know how to do.

But I promise I'll have it up by wednesday, whether I know how to do it or not.

 

[Milln]

You could just say what it involves so that we can start poking at it. Especially me, since I plan to stay up all night and I find the quirkiest things when I'm hopped up on a Nos. X,x

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Alright, here's what I'll do:

If I can't figure it out, I'll send a video to you two and anyone else who wants it. I just don't like the thought of having an unmastered technique on Youtube.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Well, the thing is, I'm kind of a perfectionist. I don't like the thought of having an educational video that shows something I don't even know how to do.

But I promise I'll have it up by wednesday, whether I know how to do it or not.

what does it look like? maybe i've done it and forgot about it or something. Half those ATs are stuff i just did in my first week of brawl when me and my friend were button mashing with characters we dont use while falling asleep >_>.

k, i dont care what site you upload the video to like rapidshare or mu (if that's the method you choose)

 

[Jeepy Sol]

It's WAY too hard to explain without the video. Explaining what it look's like would just cause more confusion. This will all be cleared up soon. But right now, I need to get some sleep, cause I have some a big test in the morning.

 

[Milln]

Word. Kay.

 

[PSYCHE]

Alright, here's what I'll do:

If I can't figure it out, I'll send a video to you two and anyone else who wants it. I just don't like the thought of having an unmastered technique on Youtube.

Send it to me, too, please.

 

[Nodrak]

Yeah I'd like it too but I swear, if this is a rickroll, you'd better hope your aura makes you stronger! =P

Also I found this out, it's not a technique, or relevant in anyway to how you play brawl, but Lucario's voice actor also did the english voice of Goku from DBZ.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Yeah I'd like it too but I swear, if this is a rickroll, you'd better hope your aura makes you stronger! =P

I would never do that! At least...not to my fellow Lucarios.

Also I found this out, it's not a technique, or relevant in anyway to how you play brawl, but Lucario's voice actor also did the english voice of Goku from DBZ.

Haha! Yes! Totally adding this!

 

[Nodrak]

Something I posted in the Double team topic about that chart. It has kill %'s which is ok, but would they be different if Lucario was a stock or two behind, or ahead by a stock?

 

[Shibby]

So where is Jeepy's video?

 

[Jeepy Sol]

I suppose they would, but probably not by much, especially when Lucario is at a lower percent. I think NESSBOUNDER said that 3 stocks was the limit. I am currently very busy (lazy), so if anyone wants to get those numbers, they should feel free, although they are not really necessary. Also, be warned, it's going to take A LOT of testing. 41 characters x 5 different percent damage Lucario has x 3 stocks when Lucario is ahead x 3 stocks when Lucario is behind=1230 different tests!

EDIT: Patience, Shibby, patience.

The video is currently being uploaded, so it should be up by tonight.

EDIT #2: My bad. So that would be 820 tests.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

2stocks is the limit, actually.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Alright, I finally got the video up. Check the "New Techniques" section.

 

[Browny]

that double team video just won this thread, and the internet in general.

and people say combos in brawl dont exist LOL @ them (BL fox mainers)

as for the backwards DT, im guessing it was a pivot somehow. in the same way you can pivot in mid air by using the mid-air jump and holding the other direction, maybe double team has the same effect, but only if you are attacked during it. since you can pivot DT on the ground anyway as the video showed, surely you can do it in the air.

 

[indianunit]

that backwards dt may be a glitch. I highly doubt it's possible to do that in the game. but then again who knows it might happen.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

I PM'd these three about the backwards DT and this is what they had to say:

This is what I think happened:

If you space yourself right, you can get Lucario stuck in a wall from double team (try shadow moses or a custom stage) proving that collisions, momentum ect... on Lucario's double team are glitchy to begin with. Which is not uncommon, look at pit's glide cancel or Snake's dash attack > Usmash slide.

To me, it looks like Lucario tried to auto-sweetspot the edge (tried to grab it) but because he was in an attack animation and taking into account his height, the animation got priority over the ledge. It would explain why he slowed down so fast and since Brawl is based on momentum, the momentum from being pulled towards the edge might explain how he traveled backwards.

Looks like just a glitch. You still come from the the direction you were facing, which still doesn't help us when trying to do it off the edge. The only thing it does is face you the direction you were facing. Might have something to do with the way B-sticking(or Psuedo-Sticking since you don't B-stick) messes with your character facing and momentum, since I did notice that you didn't travel as far as a usual Double Team.

Yar. All in all: Cool, but doesn't seem truly useful. If it is something to do with B-sticking's momentum reversal, we should check that out or get Shin to poke at it for us.

this is going to sound strange, but looking at it frame by frame, it appears lucario goes forward a bit, hits the ledge, and bounces back.

now, judging it closer (still frame by frame) lucario DOES NOT hit the ground while in DT frames pre teleportation. This means that lucario would be going at a downwards angle, but i've never seen it done near the ledge so i have no clue if you bounce back. Theoretically, i think he should've gone under the stage, but because you're doing the reverse DT, you appeared on the stage and when you hit the ledge lucario spazzed out going "WTF!" and immediatly hit reverse.

--does that work?