Ask NickRiddle how to be amazing.

[Eon the Wolf]

No It's not, but I did post in the social thread. I'm just in here to observe some discussions concerning ZSS, as I know her general play style, but am rather curious as to what you guys do or believe in regards to certain things...which brings me to 2 questions...
What do most decent ZSS players do when faced with a Marth or Wolf? I am rather curious, as I don't think the Wolf boards had much, if anything, on ZSS....
EDIT: Hmm...That's technically one...Okay. The one question then >.>

 

[Zero]

Play normally. Wolf is an annoying matchup, but bearable. Marth is a spacing game.

 

[Eon the Wolf]

Much as I figured. Being a Marth main, I've actually never had much issue with my spacing, but then again...Didn't do much brawl at TYMVIII. Mostly it was melee...and spacing between the 2 is vastly different x.x (Very easy to think in terms of melee fsmash range...Oh how often I get punished for that lol). Used to be a Wolf main, but I've stepped off him for now...His attacks can just feel so bloody clunky. The few 'combos' he has always seem to be the same move after another. Doesnt really feel like Marth or a few others...If you do a move with wolf, your options for following up are limited and based on the move you used x.x
EDIT: I'd think that the early item game is relatively useless vs Wolf though...or at least a decent wolf...or any spacie, for that matter :/

 

[Zero]

Not really. It's not about "throw all 3 pieces at enemy" anymore. It's a bit more complex then that.

 

[Eon the Wolf]

Oh no doubt. I know bout glide tossing, and obviously you could fake out the throw or z-drop but...Generally, most of the wolves I know rarely get hit by items. Ever. Even diddy's nanners when thrown....(One of the diddy mains pops in our Xat...or used to back when I was active on it. Havent been on the xat much since my own comp stopped working x.x)

 

[Zero]

So..they don't get hit with items because they play Wolf? I think it's more the player knows how to avoid items, the attacker can't hit with items, or a combination of both.

 

[Eon the Wolf]

No, I didn't mean because they played wolf. I mean, most of the Wolf players I've played with or know are relatively decent when it comes to using the reflector against items, or dodging them. Not to say they couldn't dodge items with someone else...I just meant, how do ZSS players tend to get around reflectors?

 

[Zero]

I guess the same way we get around shields. Mindgames.

 

[noradseven]

No, I didn't mean because they played wolf. I mean, most of the Wolf players I've played with or know are relatively decent when it comes to using the reflector against items, or dodging them. Not to say they couldn't dodge items with someone else...I just meant, how do ZSS players tend to get around reflectors?

Uhhh refletors are easy as hell to punish thats why.

 

[Eon the Wolf]

I wouldn't think Wolf's jump shine is that punishable...but yeah, if you just sit there close to someone or just hold reflector, of course it's punishable. That's like saying someone spamming Marth's fsmash is easy as hell to punish...

 

[Zero]

That doesn't change the fact that Marth's fsmash is easy to punish. Punishment only comes into the question if you miss.

 

[Eon the Wolf]

I know. I was making an analogy. The reflector is easy to punish, much the same as Marths Fsmash. But at the same time, correct use of them results in a high unlikelyhood of being punished. So why did Nora assume ALL uses of a reflector, or that a reflector in general, is easy to punish (presumably all or most of the time) when in comp it's rarely held open more than a second or 2 max...

 

[Zero]

Think about it. A second = 60 frames. General reaction time is 10 frames. Quite a bit of time to punish on a whiff or bait.

 

[Eon the Wolf]

You have a point there. And I have no doubt people balancing both Melee and Brawl marths will whiff. I do it myself quite a bit more than I'd probably care to admit. Granted, that whiffing sometimes results in a tip with people to the left of my head xD (I love that tip spot lol. The folks who saw me pull it off at TYMVIII were speechless :3) But in general, you have a very good point about the time required to whiff. But if I recall, the frames for wolf's reflector aren't actually that long...Plus he has invincibility frames...But I definitely see where you're coming from. But when it comes to Wolf, I just can't foresee a wolf bad enough to use the reflector in an easy to punish situation but...ya never know :/. Btw, I was reading up on ZSS's down B and how it was 4 parts...It was talking about aiming the Kick you can perform with the stick...what exactly does it mean aim? Does it mean left or right? Or are there more variations...? I don't recall much info explaining that particular subject...

 

[Zero]

The four parts I can think of are:

Invincibility - 1-12 frames at the very beginning.
Vulnrebility - I think there's a state where you can't do anything. Not sure how long it lasts. This is where you can flipstool.
Spike - Right when you activate the hitbox. You choose the direction, left or right, here.
Lingering - A weaker hitbox lingers.

 

[Eon the Wolf]

Ah okay, so its just left or right. Was a little unsure about that. Thanks...How effective, easy, or reliable is the spike would you say? I'd think people would see it coming a mile away with you having to a specific flip to use it :/

 

[Zero]

Empty downB spike is unbelievably risky. Normally it's always set up via dsmash or nB.

 

[Eon the Wolf]

Makes sense. How effective is the spike compared to say...Dorf's or Marth's? IE Could I cancel it with a well timed UpB or Jump? Or would it's stun wear out before you die if we're high enough?

 

[Snakeee]

That's like saying you should perfect shield everything because it's obviously going to come out.

No, it's more obvious than anything else. Even if they don't expect you to do it you're still getting grabbed. What can you do on the way down? Do an aerial and get powershield - grabbbed, land normally and get shield-grabbed, or down B away to have them chase you and get grabbed -__-

 

[Zero]

You can always meteor cancel it. Timing would be strict and if you miss, it'll cost you the stock. ZSS' dB is one of the strongest meteors in the game.

I would say it's a top 5 meteor. Ness, Dorf, Snake, Ike, ZSS. Although don't hold my list as if it were accurate lol.

 

[Zero]

No, it's more obvious than anything else. Even if they don't expect you to do it you're still getting grabbed. What can you do on the way down? Do an aerial and get powershield - grabbbed, land normally and get shield-grabbed, or down B away to have them chase you and get grabbed -__-

How can it be more obvious than anything else, when every character does the same thing?

Also, what about DJ to dair, while they grab? 8)

 

[noradseven]

To make down B safe you can either have it slide off an edge, intsa recovery or have it peak on a platform insta recovery.

But yeah, to wolfs down B his down B is good **** as like a counter and stuff, but if someone is shielding that **** welp...plus the risk reward isn't that good if your opponent knows about the frame trap, after the down B.

 

[Eon the Wolf]

Yeah. But it's still decent. Everything has a counter. In fact, one of the nice things about the invincibility frames is that people can 'phase' through you (IE Back when I still actively fought lvl 9 CPUS a ton, I tried to shine a D3 that was using Up B to smash my arse...I shine at the right moment...I take no damage, he takes no damage...and goes straight through me and continues on his merry way to the ground lol. I promptly gave him a bair :3) so that you can use the phasing to get behind em if you're good (and fast) enough, so that they have to roll out, wait a lil bit, or risk a pivot grab and hope the wolf is stupid enough to not back up ASAP.

 

[PhantomX]

How do I lose to Ness with Wario? I keep trying but it just seems impossible.

 

[Pikabunz]

MM Ness vs Wario at hobo.

 

[NickRiddle]

How do I lose to Ness with Wario? I keep trying but it just seems impossible.

Recover with your bike really low, and let him spike the **** out of you for it.
Also, play Shaky.

 

[noradseven]

How do I lose to Ness with Wario? I keep trying but it just seems impossible.

I don't know looks like ness has been working out.

 

[Kokaloo]

come to wc so we can train <3
this isnt a questions it's a demand

 

[NickRiddle]

come to wc so we can train <3
this isnt a questions it's a demand

Come to FL so we can train.
This isn't a demand, it is a... question...

 

[Kokaloo]

Meet ya halfway at... WHOBO2?

 

[OverLade]

Nick tell me how to beat your dumb character, HRNUT ***** my MK with ZSS yesterday.

 

[NickRiddle]

Nick tell me how to beat your dumb character, HRNUT ***** my MK with ZSS yesterday.

Stop being bad? You lost to what I'm sure is a mediocre ZSS. Show me vids, and I'll tell you in detail. :3

 

[OverLade]

It was only one match, but it was really embarassing

Vid should be up by next weekend.

edit:
Its like the matchup makes perfect sense as Snake and even other random characters like Kirby but as MK its confusing...

 

[NickRiddle]

It was only one match, but it was really embarassing

Vid should be up by next weekend.

edit:
Its like the matchup makes perfect sense as Snake and even other random characters like Kirby but as MK its confusing...

Snake is a harder MU for us than MK.
He must suck vs. Kirby if it makes sense. It's more like... you just lose.
ZSS has an option to beat every option MK has...

 

[noradseven]

Snake is a harder MU for us than MK.
He must suck vs. Kirby if it makes sense. It's more like... you just lose.
ZSS has an option to beat every option MK has...

This snake just ****ing outranges us all over the place its absurd, and the risk reward is stupid even with our long *** combos he still takes 3-4 hit confirms to kill, and guess what he only needs like 3-4 hit confirms to kill as well, and not getting hit by snake is quite the task.

 

[NickRiddle]

This snake just ****ing outranges us all over the place its absurd, and the risk reward is stupid even with our long *** combos he still takes 3-4 hit confirms to kill, and guess what he only needs like 3-4 hit confirms to kill as well, and not getting hit by snake is quite the task.

It's not so much that he out-ranges us. He's just very safe, and we have trouble getting into safe characters.

 

[OverLade]

Snake is a harder MU for us than MK.
He must suck vs. Kirby if it makes sense. It's more like... you just lose.
ZSS has an option to beat every option MK has...

I didn't actually play him with kirby, I just picked a random character for an example lol.

But tbh I think MK should be able to win just as badly as Snake, just Snakes winning options are just a lot more obvious (After watching you vs M2K lol).

 

[NickRiddle]

I didn't actually play him with kirby, I just picked a random character for an example lol.

But tbh I think MK should be able to win just as badly as Snake, just Snakes winning options are just a lot more obvious (After watching you vs M2K lol).

MK's toools aren't as good. M2K is just years better than any MK I've played. Once I get more practice vs. him, I won't lose as bad. (At all. :D)

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

now why you gotta call my Zss that you've never seen mediocre, no props... :-/

 

[Gnes]

now why you gotta call my Zss that you've never seen mediocre, no props... :-/

Should have paid the bills...

oh well...