Ask Ice Climber Players About Ice Climbers Thread

[Binx]

The short version is that Nana and Popo were both going to be single characters until they realized that their damage sucked, their movement speed was too slow, and they had really crappy projectiles. Nana went to night school and learned how to program while Popo spent his time trying to invent some gadgets to put them on a more even playing field.

Nana escaped the game and reprogrammed the game Physics to create wavedashing after Popo explained how he had made cleats that actually had little balls at the end in an attempt to increase their running speed, unfortunately it ended up making them even slow which is why their dash and walking speed is horrible, however thanks to Nana's brilliance we now have an amazingly fast wavedash (luigi overheard this plan and went anarexic which is why he is light and has an even further WD)

Popo also created heavier Mallets which is why their Fair is so slow but all of their moves are so powerful. They also edited the code so they could fight together fortunately Nintendo never noticed.

This is the story of how 2 low tiers came together to form the best character in all of melee.

As a side note Roy was going to be the best character in the game, he was going to be a faster Marth with more Knockback. Link used to have Silver Arrows that were twice as powerful as the double upgraded master sword so they basically would do 40% damage and maybe kill you after 3 or 4%.

 

[blackanese]

LMFAOOO dont give me that BS =)

 

[Barbeque]

How old is Nana and Popo?

 

[choknater]

they are approximately 600 years old

 

[Pookiez]

1,200 combined. ****.

 

[Binx]

So I saw this theory way back when I was a noob that jab = grab, grab = win, there for jab = win. Jab more. I've been using this more lately, it comes out fast has more range than the grab and with my shielding trick I've noticed I can get a grab off with Popo or Nana even they shield grab me which was one of my big problems with it before, it can still be crouch cancled which hurts if they have a quick dsmash but most characters are woefully unequiped to face this technique. Also when they do start CCing you can forward tilt instead and they wont be shielding because they can't dsmash out of a shield.

So far rolling has been the only thing I have seen for people to effectively get around this technique unless they outrange you.

Possible applications? counters? counter counters?

 

[choknater]

counters: like you said, fast CC dsmashes. who has fast dsmashes? unfortunately, the characters who already counter ice climbers, such as peach, samus, and luigi. so i can't really think of "counter counters" except approaching with stronger attacks like fsmash.

my jab approach has been stopped many times by fsmashes or ftilts. some people just kinda play that way. but other than that, it is a fairly reliable approach for a grab... however, i think it is even more reliable to to wd jab-dsmash, but that's because i don't like to miss grabs and i like to go for quicker hits.

 

[Binx]

if you are withing jab range and still sliding a tiny bit from the wd the grab is usually guaranteed, dsmash hits on frame 6-11, 39 frames total, and can be interupted at frame 36. So since you are facing the opponent you will connect on 11 for ~20% damage with good knockback, if you grab you will connect on frame 7 and if you miss you are still free to act on frame 30 and you will have the added bonus of being desynched for pressuring, just get in the habit of doing a quick blizzard or ice block after a missed grab in this situation since the only characters who cant counter it easily are probably rolling away/towards you it's relatively safe anyways.

And we all know how much easier it is to build damage from a grab, even w/o chain throws dthrow upsmash up air does more damage than both ice climbers connecting with a dsmash, against faster falling characters you can use different throw combos and set up effective techchases or you can do slightly less damage and get them off the edge with a throw smash.

 

[choknater]

oo frame data, thanks

 

[Binx]

Frame data is too good for solving problems, I found out that ICs can stop a falco piller with an upsmash, it does indeed work, Falco's earliest fast fall is 14 which is the same ammount of time it takes for U-smash to have a hitbox but dair doesn't hit until frame 5 so you have 4 frames to JC a jc upsmash to beat his short hop drill.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Did you know that out of a whiffed grab, taunt, Roll or spot dodge desynch if you input a movement command(dash or jump) as soon as the animation is done as opposed to holding it POPO actually is able to react first? Try it out! It may actually be worth something.

During desynch combos, I've noticed alot of stuff.

I've been trying to Nair alot more often and here's what I've noticed. Tipper desynchs out of this are hot stuff. Against a Peach I did a Nair -> P-Nair -> N-Dash attack into an Upair juggle. Peach's Dair doesn't seem to have alot of priority so this could be kinda useful as a lead in into the juggle for a little extra damage.

Ftilt is alot like the Nair, IMO, only it feels alot safer, albeit being less mobile. You can tipper desynch out of this too if Ftilt poking is your thing.

Dash attack. This move is pretty underused. It ends combos abruptly but it sets up for juggles.

Fair seems to give a lot of stun to the enemy and it pops them up pretty nicely so it could set up for a smash, Grab or a KOing Bair. But the wind-up lag is pretty horrendous.

Dtilt is pretty underused and if applied correctly, I could see it being useful and a cool unexpected move in desynch combos. It has a little pop-up that can either be used to set up for uair juggles OR it can set up a fair spike which can lead into a tech-chase. It's definitely ideal for setting up Uair juggles because it's easy to resynch so you can deal double damage. Although possibly setting up a tech-chase for a fast-faller at med-high percentages could give you the stock. Still, with the wind-up lag of the Fair, they may recover and knock you out of it, if they expect it.

-enough of that though-

I don't see Dthrow -> Bair being mentioned at all in SoPo's game. I've been doing this alot lately, especially for characters that I can't Smash out of a grab. Maybe the guys I do it to have slow reactions but I've even done it to a Peach before. For the most part, DI out of the throw doesn't matter because Bair still has a hitbox in front too, although i think it's a bit smaller. Still, the knockback is good enough to at least set up for an edgeguard, if not KO because they don't expect it.



Of course, I suck at this game, so I'm probably wrong. Tell me if I am.

 

[Binx]

I don't use many Nairs perhaps I will start testing it out some, honestly though I only really use the uair when I am in the air, occasionally I will space fairs and there are rare circumstances outside of chain grabs where I will use a dair, but I never really use the nair unless I know nothing else can hit them or if I know it will knock them slightly off the edge where I can go for an edgeguard.

F-tilt desynch is pretty unreliable for me because I only really use it from a wavedash and both tilts seem to hit, is there invisible range on this? does the hitbox extend beyond the hammer?

I've used the reverse portion of the bair to hit people, most times they are DIing away trying to get out of range of the uair too so it often sends them even further, it seems like the knockback here is slightly less than the bair normally is but this is often offset by incorrect DI.

 

[Speedsk8er]

I don't use many Nairs perhaps I will start testing it out some, honestly though I only really use the uair when I am in the air, occasionally I will space fairs and there are rare circumstances outside of chain grabs where I will use a dair, but I never really use the nair unless I know nothing else can hit them or if I know it will knock them slightly off the edge where I can go for an edgeguard.

F-tilt desynch is pretty unreliable for me because I only really use it from a wavedash and both tilts seem to hit, is there invisible range on this? does the hitbox extend beyond the hammer?

I've used the reverse portion of the bair to hit people, most times they are DIing away trying to get out of range of the uair too so it often sends them even further, it seems like the knockback here is slightly less than the bair normally is but this is often offset by incorrect DI.

Well, now that I think about it, Guarded desynchs could be alot more viable since there's less lag nana to go through. Not to mention, it's not dependent upon hitting the enemy although it is ideal. So instead of going for a tipper desynch with Ftilts, go for guarded. Tipper desynchs work best with aerials from my experience.

 

[Binx]

Ok, so for aerial tipper desynchs do you you have to not DI forward to do the nair one, or... do you think fair is the best one to do it with, is it safe?

EDIT: I had a crazy dream when I passed out on the bus here that I was playing against m2k he went to fair me, I dashed away and he hit nana and the lag from it let me get a grab and I did this fat combo against his Marth with mostly popo until the end where I wobbled him and killed him.

So do you guys think purposely letting nana be hit by dash dancing certain ways would be worth it? Also does anyone know how many frames it takes to powershield melee attacks? I've heard its one for melee three for projectiles but I dont see why where would be a distinction, so I believe it would just plain be 3 frames, with proper timing I bet we could learn to powershield Marth's fair and have a LOT of guaranteed grabs, this would also help against Peaches pressure game, if you could consitently powershield her nair cancels you could grab before she had time to dsmash.

Against Marth you would just dash away and then dash into and powershield the second fair just like you would falco's laser then you would have a guaranteed grab combo with Nana synched, this could lead into several wobbles if perfected, and as long as you do it early and not late you are still relatively safe even if you mess up.

 

[Wobbles]

Binx: The problem with trying to use lag from Nana getting hit is that the hitbox remains out. This means the attack can stall in the air for longer while still being active and you can continue to get hit by it as you try to run in for the grab.

Think about when characters hit the Shy Guys on Yoshi's or the breakable stage parts on Brinstar. It actually makes the attack last longer.

Powershielding, however, would be kind of broken for the IC's. I think, as a community, we should let the rest of SWF stay at peace, not worrying about having 9/10 of their attacks powershielded into a grab.

...Actually, that's a lie. If I could powershield consistently into grabs, I would do it all day long.

 

[Pookiez]

Urgh, That throws my timing off all the time, I go in for a grab after someone hits Nana (Not that I noticed he was going to hit Nana) only to find out the hit box is still in there and hits me in the face. That has the be my main annoyance when playing IC's being able to predict someone but not being able to punish them because nana go in the way XD. Oh well I guess i still need more time to get used to the hit box lag.

 

[Binx]

I think powershielding melee attacks for most characters is fairly superfulous since they really can't punish the same way we can, if we could powershield consistently we would get 50+ percent out of our grab even against characters who aren't easily comboed in grabs.

Something to think about?

 

[Binx]

I demand that you guys start talking excitedly about powershielding into infinites and improving your games, someone ask a question IM SO BORED!

 

[Genuine]

Ok here ya go Binx

what are some non blizzard ways to get past shieks needles?
srsly they cut through everything but blizzard and theres this really good shiek in my area. He knows how to use the needles and he knows how to bait me. I try jumping and he usually pulls off something like either WD back into more needles or he might just approach me in the air seeing as IC have horrible air game.

 

[Binx]

What I do against campy Sheiks is this:

I get fairly close, eventually even the most patient player will feel cornered and try to attack eventually, if she is about to throw needles and you dash away a little Nana will take them and if you stayed close enough you should have time to grab her and chain throw until Nana comes to help and chain throw faster, Sheik can jump out of the dthrow dsmash chain throw at about 60% i think, maybe a little bit lower, I like to sneak in a dthrow dair at that percentage and then do a dthrow forward smash while they are trying to DI away from the dthrow dair that they expect you to do again.

Pretty much every time Sheik jumps its free damage from either an upsmash or an uair, just stay on the ground, if she tries to camp platforms to avoid grabs just be really patient with uairs, eventually you will either get a bair set up or a grab setup to finish her off.

I dont get bothered by the needles I know that the damage she is going to do with them will become unsafe for her once I close the distance, I use waveshielding and just strait walking through them until I am close, if you grab sheik it's 50% damage at the least and likely you will take a stock, the pesky 8-16% you will take from needle damage is pretty insignificant.

 

[choknater]

vs sheik:

she can be pretty hard

just grab her sh*t

sometimes she can be hard to grab, but definitely easier than peach, luigi, fox, or marth. the reason people have the notion that ic's counters sheik is because of the ease it takes to do chain grabs.

sometimes the answer to a matchup is as simple as changing your motive. grab sheik until you win!

 

[Binx]

I've played against some Sheiks that are VERY difficult to grab though, the key is definitely knowing that her options are usually limited because if she does get grabbed she will probably die and Sheik knows this, so any time she does a move punishable with a grab it has to be a surprise, usually she is easier to predict because you know what she wants to do, she wants to avoid the grabs so you punish her for being in the air, or rolling, or dodging instead, the key in this match up is for you to be patient and for her to be scared, if she isn't scared you probably win anyways if you are of similar skill.

It is more even than it seems, kind of like Marth vs Sheik at higher levels, Sheik does counter Marth but with really careful spacing they will make you work hard for your win even though on paper you have a large advantage.

 

[choknater]

yeah i've played some challenging sheiks >_< i know what you mean

it can be very difficult.

but still, i think of it this way: i have the character advantage still.

if that person is trying so hard to avoid it, then i should try just as hard or even harder to get the grab.

same thing against falco.

 

[CoonTail]

I don't wanna cut the sheik topic short, but I did not want to make a new thread so heres my question. I play my partner alot and he has started to play mario instead of his fox. I can get away with a decent amount of lower recoveries with my single IC against his mario instead of his fox always shining me. I love to pull the single IC up B and it has the capability to insta grab the edge sometimes, whenev it doesnt he WILL cape me. Ive seen a bit of info about this but not much. So essentially how do u sweetspot the IC up b with the supposed "non sweetspot curse"?

 

[AzN_Lep]

hmmm well your ordeal sounds kind of silly to begin with, but sure why not. You're gonna wanna up b so that it looks like you're just short of grabbing the edge. Popo will sweet spot it with a bit of an extended grab. If you really wanna get around his cape you can always just air dodge back on.

 

[CoonTail]

Oh so it's as if im gonna grab the edge but then I hit up b and it insta grabs, thanks but btw I have tried to air dodge and he either caps me and leaves me falling like a moron or hell cape ill land on the stage and BOOM fsmash

 

[AzN_Lep]

yeah that's the basic jist of it. just make sure you're coming from below the stage.

As far as the air dodge goes if you come up parallel to the ledge and you friend capes (as much as you say he does) you'll avoid his cape and land on the ledge, so the f-smash isn't even a problem.

 

[CoonTail]

Thats where the prob stands tho his timing is pretty awesome and basically he waits me out so that if I air dodge straight up he'll cape later and cause mayhem but the up b he cant react as well to so Im kinda exploiting a weakness because everytime i air dodge he waits then capes and if im not dead the Fsmash comes

 

[Smasher89]

Hmm, I have got some problems with the reverse dair chain, it´s supposed to work like fulljump, if opponent DI from ICs just dair and turna around and grab, but I don't time it too well, exacly how is the timing?

 

[Binx]

Thats where the prob stands tho his timing is pretty awesome and basically he waits me out so that if I air dodge straight up he'll cape later and cause mayhem but the up b he cant react as well to so Im kinda exploiting a weakness because everytime i air dodge he waits then capes and if im not dead the Fsmash comes

You could always treat him like marth and recover very high with the squall and just try to trick him so he doesn't fsmash you when you land. Otherwise though you probably aren't mixing it up enough, even level with the stage you could do a max height tornado every now and again to keep him guessing, this will cause it to take him longer to react.

Hmm, I have got some problems with the reverse dair chain, it´s supposed to work like fulljump, if opponent DI from ICs just dair and turna around and grab, but I don't time it too well, exacly how is the timing?

It doesn't work on all characters and the one's it does all have different timing, basically you want to hit them with the dair before they are at the peak of the throw, just practice vs level 1 falcon's his timing is fairly easy, just pause the dair for a moment and you should be able to get it.

 

[Twin_A]

Hey I don't know if this has been asked yet but I was wondering (and yes this is the question no IC player wants to ask) what are ways you can beat another IC player in a ditto match? Like little tricks to give you the edge in this matchup.

The basis of my question is because my twin and I both use IC's (funny to think about I know). Although he's given up on maining them he still loves to do dittos with me. So far I just seem to mostly use desynched blizzards and d smashes added in with mindgames. Any other words of advise?

 

[Binx]

basically I just do lots of well aimed smashes and once Nana is seperated finish her off, once you have done that you can make short work of sopo because you can block really easily and they can't. Also you can dsmash ICs out of a grab every time. If you grab and then forward tilt you can sometimes knock nana away and throw popo without being punished.

 

[Genuine]

basically I just do lots of well aimed smashes and once Nana is seperated finish her off, once you have done that you can make short work of sopo because you can block really easily and they can't. Also you can dsmash ICs out of a grab every time. If you grab and then forward tilt you can sometimes knock nana away and throw popo without being punished.

but remember that can also be used AGAINST you so dont try to put yourself in them situations.

In the event you are the one with sopo, play defensive. Most of the time, ICs will think they have an advantage ( they do) when you are alone in a ditto. But use this to your advantage, they might be a little more reckless. Play defensivly until IC does a move that can be punished like Fsmash. I like to use nairs and dash attacks when playing IC pair. It puts them in positions where they cant attack you or you can separate and use some uairs, but be aware of there shield. They can sheild grab you. If suspect shield try to space your fairs.

now hearing that you might wanna be aware of the inverse of that seeing as it could happen to you.

 

[Speedsk8er]

I tend to Blizzard alot more while SoPo against dual climbers. It's such a great defensive move for me because it makes them back off. I also mindgame ALOT more during IC dittos. Mindgames are NOT my strong suit, sadly.

Although I DID 3-stock a ranked player in my state in IC dittos. Dash dance blizzard -> Utilt -> Uair juggle FTW. He is a MUCH better player than me. I just have more knowledge of IC.

 

[bossyjellyfish]

Well, I have a few newbie questions.

Do you know where I could find videos such as Double Vision and Avalanche?

And, this really might sound stupid, but what is a spot dodge? I was starting the Desynching guide and it said spot dodge, I got confused.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Well, I have a few newbie questions.

Do you know where I could find videos such as Double Vision and Avalanche?

And, this really might sound stupid, but what is a spot dodge? I was starting the Desynching guide and it said spot dodge, I got confused.

R/L + Down

 

[bossyjellyfish]

Oh, I do that, just didn't know the name. . .whoops. Thanks!

 

[Wobbles]

For fighting another IC's I like to time wavedashes so that I go right before theirs and simply grab them. Get a double grab and Nana is guaranteed to get split up.

F-air is useful for handling aggressive wavedashes. Short hop backwards or forwards to intercept them.

Jabs and f-tilt are very useful against a single IC. Blizzard is also amazing, and is probably your best de-sync option.

I also like pivoted f-smash into pistons; have Nana delay her f-smash a tiny bit and you can get the enemy to wavedash right into it. If they hesitate, have her blizzard instead and then fire an iceblock while she does that. It'll give you a nice defensive wall and you finish your animations at similar times, so you re-sync quickly.

If it's 2v1 and you have them off the edge, have Nana fully charge a forward-smash. Then just wait to see what they do. It's almost impossible to get around this, since you can grab if they go overhead with forward+b, or just grab the edge if they start going low.

 

[the CRAB]

new mindgame, maybe?

i have a question, but i think it's just an issue of timing. either way, i havent seen it in any tutorial guides/vids (tho i'm new to the ICs, and thus info concerning them), so it might be something new, could be useless. dunno. guess that's why i'm here.

i have a friend who's DI is amazing. so i was trying to think up some kind of mindgame or strategy to mess up his DI for lower % kills. since a primary climber kill is dthrow to fsmash, he's gonna smash DI up + the direction he's facing. well, i've come to find out that you can dthrow and WD with nana in tandem and dsmash, sending them him in the direction in which he's already DI'ing. as i said, i havent seen anyone do that before, so i hope it helps people's game if noone's heard of it before.

there are kinks, however, hence my question. so far i've only been able to dsmash and usmash using this. for some reason i cant do an fsmash, maybe bc of timing. it'd be far more effective than the dsmash, i think. also, every few times it just pops them up like the chainthrow application of the dsmash. this is probably a result of a bad WD, tho, but it might be character specific. i've only tried on doc and marth thus far. can anyone offer more info on this? have you seen this before? am i nuts? i wouldnt know if it's a timing thing or not bc i dont know jack about frame data.

 

[Binx]

Thats an okay mindgame, but if you upthrow it does more damage than a downthrow and then time a forward smash and it sends them behind you anyways but at a higher percent, also it's easier so there is less chance of messing up, your way is flashy though, but I think if I was paying attention the wavedash could tip me off in time to change my DI.