Q&A Ask about Pikachu! Hosted by Axe and N64! feat. dkuo!

[Humuck]

Yeah, that's a good suggestion. Just talked to chad a bit, and he'll see what he can do. Putting the 3 hour tutorial on youtube is probably not doable atm, but he said he'd try to get it stored somewhere in case.

Sounds good. If doable, great. If not, I totally understand

 

[-Chad-]

I'm trying to, may have to break it into like 7 parts ot upload to youtube ha...

thanks twitch.

 

[PikaPika!]

64 stop talking like you still play this game

 

[oukd]

today whenever i tried my pika counterpick on fd vs fox, i had a really hard time finding my grab in the neutral

obviously fox doesnt want to get grabbed, and most of them just dd/shdl really far away and wait for me
this makes it a little easier for me to force their hand a little and land hits
i can land attacks pretty well when fox has no plats to escape to. this is useful to rack some preliminary %
but nothing feels like it sets up for grab particularly effectively...and trying to raw punish with grab is so hard because of the range

hmm :S

i find the easiest moves to land are
1. ftilt/dtilt pokes (completely un-followup-able lol)
2. nair (im horrible at following up nair...need to work on this)
3. uair oos (kind of hard to grab out of but doable with sh uair, depending on di)
4. dsmash (the trajectory is basically on a roulette so idk if i should even bother practicing this)

also i need to become confident with pika upb angles again
this character requires so much damn upkeep ~_~_~_~_~

how do you guys usually go about finding your grabs on fd?

 

[Humuck]

I'm trying to, may have to break it into like 7 parts ot upload to youtube ha...

thanks twitch.

Thanks Chad. Whatever works is great, wouldn't want to lose all of that footage

 

[N64]

hey pikapika. I played melee a week and a half ago! I'm still bad but i still play!
The main guy i'm playing with is moving to china in a couple days though. I may be re-retiring.
But melee too funnnnn.

As for grabs on FD, I mostly try to just be patient and get them on whiff punishes, techchasing, or rising uairs. If i can somehow pressure Fox enough that he feels like shielding or downdodging (i don't know why he would), then I'll try one off that, but that shouldn't happen really. Rising uair -> grab works fine at low enough percents. You just have to fastfall and turn around (if need be) once you land fast enough. Otherwise, I try to bait something out and grab. I can sometimes get a grab off him whiffing a grab. Or him whiffing a usmash (rare). Or doing like a sh bair/nair (and not feeling threatened enough to shine after *shrug*). Usmash oos -> grab can also kinda work at low percents.

Techchasing works decently as well. Pika has a number of silly stuff that just forces Fox to tech. Uair mostly, if you spike him into the stage he has to tech, and it's generally: tech in place and risk getting grabbed, tech in and risk getting grabbed, or tech away and be at the ledge while pika has stage control. If he misses his tech, great! Jab reset him, or shieldgrab, or try to follow his eventual gettup stand/roll. A successful dsmash forces him to jump or tech, neither of which is too appealing. Nair forces him to tech at mid percents. etc.

of course, this is all ideal situations stuff. Grabbing fox is REALLY HARD

 

[Dinowulf]

I'll ask again cause I didn't get a answer. Iunderstand that yoshi should stock tank in doubles but what about pikachus role?

 

[N64]

I assumed Vman would come back with more info. He or Axe are muchmuchmuchmuch more versed in the team makeup than I obviously, but i'll give my assumptions on how it'd go.

Pikachu plays pretty well as a less-painful-Fox in teams. He can get in and out of engagements quickly, produce kills (via upsmash or uair gimps), and get to his teammate very quickly (either to help get him out of pressure, or create a 2v1 situation). Yoshi is a little less mobile, but pretty good at just holding place. Getting around Yoshi when he doesn't want you to pass sounds like a tall order in teams. He also does pretty decent damage and has pretty good edge coverage options. I imagine the main thing you want to focus on as Yoshi is to try to control the stage and your opponents while Pikachu isolates and attacks. If your partner is winning a 1v1, don't let their partner get by you to help out. If your partner is in trouble, force yourself into the opponent if possible and give Pikachu a chance to get out to a better position. Otherwise, try to survive and rack up damage. Get kills where you can, do yoshi stuff, etc. Just use your weight and super armor to force yourself into situations where Pikachu needs help, because he is a frail little pokemon.

This is also assuming your partner is capable of playing his role well. He should be using his mobility to his advantage, both to chase opponents and to come to you (either to help save you or doubleteam an opponent). Once you soften them up a bit, Pikachu's usmash becomes scary, and opponents are less likely to be able to crouchcancel his approaches and otherwise stop Pikachu's aggressive game. He should recognize this and figure out which opponent he should focus his aggression on depending on character, percentage, stage position, and how it would interact with what you are doing.

This is mostly supposition on my part though. I have been playing teams for forever, but admittantly have never seriously teamed with a Yoshi before. Vman/Axe let me know if any of that was wrong, and add anything you wish! I know you both lurk here occasionally.

 

[Dinowulf]

me and my pikachu friend read it and we both agree. We're practicing and trying to come up with more plans from that. Thanks a lot N64

 

[Teczer0]

What answers do Pikachu have vs CC aside from grabs?

I was thinking about fair and maybe low upair but iunno

 

[N64]

CC is pretty tough for pikachu to deal with in general. As you mentioned, grabs can work well (especially since pikachu's speed allows him to get in so quick, making the grab less obvious). Pika's grab range is butts though, so the option is not always that great.

Fair doesn't actually work out too well, the hitlag of it is so minimal that chars can just CC the whole thing (at almost any percent) and punish you. First-hitbox uair works pretty well. It's position-dependant of course, but it will knock people out of CC surprisingly early. While it won't always knock characters with good CCs into the air (i.e. samus), it will at least knock them down and put you in an advantageous position to follow up.

I like dair much of the time if I expect my opponent to CC. It's a little slow to come out, but if their response to you approaching is to CC, that doesn't really matter. Dair will knock them down and do decent damage. You can also still coast through them with dair (similar to how you would with nair) and land behind them, making it mostly safe.

Poking with dtilt/fsmash can work ok as well. It won't knock them out of CC, but it builds up a bit of damage and often will deter them from CCing, as most chars don't have a good punish from that position. This isn't too great against some chars (samus dsmash can still hit you after CCing the dtilt, Peach cc->dsmash can just eat your dtilt/fsmash and pull you in, etc.) so it's not for every matchup.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

 

[Teczer0]

Counter poke fsmash seems kinda risky, what I've been doing lately is trying to counter poke with dtilt (this is against marth so its really hard) or low nairs to maximize the knockback.

I didn't think about dair, I might try that out.

Thanks N64 :3

 

[N64]

Yeah, against marth you generally have to poke/grab until he's at at least 30%ish when CC doesn't work as well against nair. Low/early nairs are also good as you mentioned, but they're a little hard to disguise (i.e. Marth could potentially grab you before/as you jump). But if it hits it's hard for him to catch you with anything out of CC.

Dair generally doesn't work for too long, but you usually only need it to hit once a stock to get them close to a percentage where you have to worry about CC less.

 

[oukd]

running sh tomahawk into dsmash
huehuehue

jokes aside, aside from what n64 mentioned - dsmash can break cc pretty ez
but generally its hard to find closeby situations for this (ie as often as peach does)
and ofc dsmash is hella punishable. but if you call cc with dsmash it feels pretty great

sometimes jolt gets people to move around a bit which reduces cc'ness
but jolt feels really stupid and opens yourself up a little too ~_~

remember that rising uair is actually cc'able up till 30~40ish depending on character

Spoiler

cc %'s (fully staled moves)

this is the % prior to getting hit...i think. i dont remember because this chart is kind of old

jiggs - 61 strong nair, 101 weak nair, 27 rising uair
fox - 69 strong nair, 111 weak nair, 30 rising uair
falco - 70 strong nair, 112 weak nair, 31 rising uair
marth - 73 strong nair, 118 weak nair, 31 rising uair
peach - 74 strong nair, 120 weak nair, 32 rising uair
cf - 80 strong nair, 130 weak nair, 35 rising uair

 

[Teczer0]

Its funny because I was actually considering seeing if I can try to add PS dsmash into my game vs Dtilt spam etc, with a different character haha, maybe I can try it with Pika instead.

I actually do use dsmash a lot so I might try to be creative with it

 

[Humuck]

Hello again guys. I have a question about getting back on stage, especially from the ledge. My training partner is a Marth/Falco main, and I feel so helpless when recovering. I understand that Pika has an insane recovery, so I must be doing something wrong. Against Marth, here is what usually happens: I sweet-spot the ledge, but get hit by Marth's pesky d-tilts. Or I get on the ledge and...
A.) get a tipper spaced on me
B.) Do a get-up-attack and get shield grabbed
C.) Ledge drop and then do a rising ariel. Then I get shield grabbed.
D.) Stand up, which results in getting tippered.
E.) Roll up, which results in getting tippered.
F.) Jumping up and getting caucht in an ariel.
G.) and lastly landing my up-b on stage, but getting read and punished because of the landing lag of Pika's b-up.
Against Falco, the one concern is getting daired when Pika's hurtbox is extended during the second up-b. I'm starting to feel helpless, and would really appreciate advice, and hearing how you guys recover. Thanks

 

[N64]

First, make sure you're actually sweetspotting the ledge. You can only do so by passing the edge at a downward angle. I will refer you to this thread for more information on that.

Secondly, it can be kind of tough getting from ledge->stage safely with pikachu. The main thing you need to practice is wavelanding on to the stage. If you get the timing correct and are quick enough with your waveland, you will actually still have a littttttle bit of ledge-invulnerability still as you get on the stage. You can use this to then do a quick sh nair or otherwise improve your stage position.

On your last point, if you correctly sweetspot, Falco's dair shouldn't connect unless he goes offstage with it and hits the first pancake phase of upB. If he does that, though, it's pretty obvious and you can adjust your trajectory to avoid it (for instance upback->towards instead of up->downtowards) which also puts him in a pretty bad situation of being in a somewhat laggy move offstage against pika.

Let me know if all of that made sense or if you have any other questions on it.

 

[ramenchu]

I've always mained Pikachu since I began playing this game, but I keep getting comments that my other characters are better, which in pretty unfortunate and a bit saddening to me LOL. I feel like I can't give up on this character.

Just wanted to see if you guys could give me some general tips on Pikachu and actually just on Melee and mindset itself so I can focus my practicing. I have a lot of trouble adapting to my opponent's habits, and for Pika I completely suck at extending my nairs (not sure if I'm going as far as he can actually go). My overall "mindset" is pretty lacking... I don't really think when I play

Pikachu is so technically demanding, so if you guys could give me some tips on those things that would be awesome. thanks!

 

[N64]

I dunno, man. For a long time I felt my sheik was better than my pika, but pika was about 3x as fun to play so I kept playing him and now he's easily my best. Just play what you have fun with and you'll get there in time imo.

When playing any character, I like to approach the game from a 'tools and objectives' point of view. What tools does my character have and how can I use them to accomplish my objective of killing my opponent? If you play pika like marth or fox like yoshi, you're not likely to have good results. Recognize pikachu's strengths (i.e. fast movement, uair is amazing, usmash strong, etc.) and make sure you are playing to them. If you're trading blows to try to get in or playing a heavy spacing game that works well for other characters, don't expect to do well with pika. Just take a moment after every stock and try to review what happened. Do you think you were too aggressive that stock? Too passive? Too risky? Too safe? etc. Focus on remedying that in your next stock.

If you can record your matches, that would be ideal. First, we can watch and look for specific things you can improve on. Second, you can compare your matches to matches of the best pika players. Try to notice how their style differs from yours. Try to find similar situations in the matches (i.e. trying to recover against x character from the ledge) and see how you each respond to it, and what the result was. Figure out your weak points, and work on those.

 

[Humuck]

Makes sense, thanks a lot. I'll definitely practice my wave lands
In response to N64's post directed towards me that is. For some reason it wouldn't let me reply directly

 

[solar bear]

hey guys im not a pikachu main but i found a tech that im not sure if you guys know about or not. i was playing on the 20xx hack pack. and had pikachu do shine out of shield when pressured. just cause i was bored and wanted to see what happened. to my surprise he did a ground down b that had no lightning come out but instead he instantly had hurt boxes surround his body. it was as fast as a shine out of shield. so i dont know if you guys knew about this but it seems pretty ground breaking

 

[MistFist]

I just became a pikachu main and is probably the funnest thing ever lol now my question is this: when should you up smash with pikachu? which characters and at what stages?

 

[oukd]

@ S solar bear the answer is here
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2esrsa/i_think_i_found_a_new_pikachu_oos_options/ck2n901



@ MistFist

idk if everyone will agree with me but
youll want to usmash almost every time a situation presents itself where usmash will hit
gives positional advantage and good for combo starting. theres like no reason not to usmash lol

only vs low% floaties would i recommend against it since theyll exit hitstun early enough to hit you
or if you see a more optimal punish available
or if you can setup an edgeguard or techchase vs low%

 

[MistFist]

thanks a lot @ oukd

 

[Press22]

Hey guys! My questions is about the matchup vs Falco. There are soooo many Falco mains here in Vegas for some reason, and I am just getting destroyed by dair shine combos. What counterpick stages would you go? (Other than FD which they almost always ban)
Overall playing against a Falco I feel as all my moves get beat by anything he throws out.
Also I have problems dealing with laserz


Same thing from Sheik, just get combo'd to death so much. Only thing I've got going for me is that I'm decent at tail spiking.

 

[ramenchu]

I have that same problem with Falcos.. lasers give me a ton a problems ):<

 

[N64]

If you're having trouble with lasers, smaller stages are better. I think battlefield is fine, Falco's recovery options are pretty limited there and it's not too big that his laser game becomes dominant. If you really want to get in his face, then go to your choice of Yoshis/FoD. Just know that his shine combos will work pretty much regardless of stage, so make sure your approaches and defense options are tight so you don't leave openings for that initial shine/dair/etc that starts it.

If you're still having trouble, don't sweat it. Falco is a tough matchup. Try different things to get around lasers and to beat his approaches. See what works, what doesn't, etc.

 

[Medic28]

I made an account to point out that in pikachad and n64's spectacular pikachu tutorial that was linked a few pages back, 'let it go' from frozen is playing at 1:22:00 while pikachad talks about ledgeguard kills and it's pretty excellent.

Also the whole video is real cool and I've been making my way through the 3 hours between practice sessions and watching vods of axe, thank you very much to pikachad and n64 for doing such an in depth video, and thank you for getting mad about bohemian rhapsody but letting idina menzel rock.

Also link to the video again: http://www.twitch.tv/pikachad/c/4081228

 

[knightpraetor]

so i tried out pikachu vs jiggs this weekend but got wrecked. too hard to land kills. does pikachu have any good punishes on jiggs off grab?

 

[N64]

Unfortunately, not really. Uthrow leads to uair, or maybe nair at lower percents. Dthrow can create an interesting situation where you can get like usmash or nair if they DI poorly, but it isn't guaranteed at all and doesn't really put you in a good position if they DI correctly anyhow. Just throw her wherever you need her to be.

Jiggs is tough.

 

[GaIe]

Whenever I face off against jiggs I get forced into an unusually defensive game. Badly timed nairs will punish you hard. Bairs and ftilts hit easier but sets up for nothing.
My best way of killing jiggs is to bait a pound and then usmash out of shield. Avoid dreamland.

 

[The Jets]

On a stage like battlefield I just try to out movement jiggs and wait for nairs which can sometimes lead into other things. Jolts work well too and force her to either avoid or bair to cancel it. I think a good dash dance camp style can do decently. I also love up-Bing from stage to ledge and do a nair into the stage while jiggs is flying up.
Up air to thunder is actually pretty good and is occasionally unpublishable when you miss.

The kill is the hardest part. Up smash oos and nair when she's at high percent work well, and occasionally dair has worked for me. Its a match up I don't find terrible, actually

 

[!and]

Hey everyone, looks like this is my first post here despite having this account for a while heh

I recently participated in a crew battle, and the video's up at twitch.tv/themeleegames/b/580762409?t=3m27s (my games start at 3:27 if it doesn't go there). If anyone wants to take a look and provide any general advice or suggestions on what I should be practicing, it'd be greatly appreciated. :D

One thing in particular: I got pretty nervous during the matches and ended up auto-piloting for a lot of it, especially during the game against the falco. Does anyone have any advice on staying mentally focused during a game?

 

[The Jets]

I'm not at a computer but I look forward to checking it out and will watch your video when I get a chance.

But for staying focused, it's all about wanting to win more than the other opponent, and forgetting the crowd, expectations and whether you missed that last WD or not. Crew battles it's harder to say, because it's more than just winning a game, you want to take as many stocks as you can without losing any yourself, in which case I think I got think to always have in your mind is Isai's perfectly simple quote "don't get hit." A lot of the time see people just sort of give up if they're playing someone they think it really good, don't ever consider the game lost until you lose all your stocks.

There is a popular guide that has many useful sections in it about all sorts of things that help with mindset. Google "drastic improvement" it's the first result.

 

[The Jets]

I have a kind of simple question. How to does one perform the weak hit nair with pika? It's so good at comboing, but I don't know his exactly to execute it. Is it about how long it's out, where it connects etc.

 

[The Jets]

!and I found it on YouTube. You were playing the Roy? I don't have any knowledge of him lol

 

[!and]

I don't think it's on youtube yet, but it should be up soon. The title of the twitch stream might be misleading because there are actually like 9 crew battles in there, I was playing in MIT vs. Emerson.

Anyways, thanks, that guide is really good!

 

[N64]

I like your pikachu, looks pretty solid. I don't have any major playstyle-related advice, I think you have a firm enough grasp on that from your play. The only major things I really noticed after one watch are tech-skill related. Work on jump-cancelling out of a dash (mostly to grab). I saw a number of running grabs, which is terrible awful no good for pikachu. Jumpcancel grabs are so much safer, and pretty instrumental to pikachu's pressure game. Also work on chainthrowing fastfallers. You missed like every one in that Falco match heh. This is related to jumpcancelling grabs, as it's needed, so just practice it. Lastly, practice ledge dashing. You had the one suicide from it, which happens, and I imagine that's why you opted to not try it much more in the crew battle (since every stock is important). It's so good though. If you get good at it, it makes getting up from the ledge so much easier. You'll still have a few invuln frames with which to get by or at least threaten your opponent. It's just much safer than his other options. You didn't directly lose a stock during those matches from it, but multiple times you could have put yourself in a much better position (namely being in center stage) if you had ledgedashed then dashed past or shorthop nair'd through Falco instead of just coming up from the ledge with a normal getup or an aerial.

That stuff is just practice though. I like a lot of the decisions you made. Things could have been a little tighter at points, but overall your pika is pretty fast and mobile and you did a good job of recognizing and seeking advantageous positions, especially in the Falco match. I look forward to seeing more of your pikachu!

 

[N64]

So, double post, but I went to a local tourney today, and had a few good sets against s0ft recorded. The recording is at http://www.twitch.tv/typohousegames/b/582234720 winners finals starts around 52:00 and grands starts around 1:56:00. The video stutters a bit at parts, but hopefully that isn't too problematic. They were fun sets, and a good reminder of how much I have to improve on. But, I know I don't have many videos up despite how vocal I am on the forums, so hopefully this helps answer those of you who've asked for vids of me! yeah

Edit: They put it up on youtube if you prefer that.
Winners Finals
Grand Finals

 

[oukd]

you have a face????????????