iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Ok people I need some percents.
Uthrow usmash on Falcon/Fox/Falco for FD and PS.
Uthrow usmash on Falcon/Fox/Falco for FD and PS.
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Q&A Ask about Pikachu! Hosted by Axe and N64! feat. dkuo!
- Thread starter N64
- Start date
Shadocat
Smash Ace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vF9WvRzQVI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaagbT6tT30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qji3mLIhz8s
For anyone that wants to critique
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaagbT6tT30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qji3mLIhz8s
For anyone that wants to critique
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
You don't seem very comfortable around the edge. There's a lot more but I feel a good 3 hour training session with just you Pika and the cube and you could see drastic improvement. Practice your movement, nair shuffles, up tricksies to sweetspots, jump cancel usmash, and short hopping too. The Falco your playing is on a different skill level then you right now.
N64
Smash Champion
Your pika fundamentals seem alright, and you have periods of pretty decent pika play. Where I think you can do the most improvement is your edgeguarding (as robin mentioned), matchup experience, and your approach philosophy i guess. I could be misinterpreting it, but it felt like often when you were on offense you'd make a plan, put in the inputs of said plan, and not really react to what the opponent did. So if you got your hit in with a nair or whatever, the rest of the combo would go fairly well (as long as they didn't DI too awkwardly), but if you traded or missed instead, you would miss an lcancel on your next move (as you didn't expect to not jump, etc.) or miss the tech when you hit the ground, and then get up, shield, and watch your opponent for an opening to uair/grab or get away. You'd kind of lock up as you thought up a new plan. That will probably come more naturally as you get more matchup experience, but I think figuring out how to be more adaptable in your approaches abandon/change plans asap when they don't work out will help your play as pikachu a lot.
Your edgeguarding needs work. It would be a bit easier to critique if you went for edgeguards more often, but it seemed like most of the time you would just fsmash and hope the opponent missed their sweetspot or timed their fastfall after upB poorly. You went off the edge a few times, which is good to see, and it worked out a couple times. It mostly felt like almost always you just expected them to recover in a particular way, and would try to hit them with fsmash. Pika has a ton of good tools against spaceys, he's super dangerous against them off the edge, but even if you aren't comfortable off the edge a down-angled ftilt works much better than fsmash in almost all situations. It hits below the edge, is impossible to avoid via sweetspot from most angles, comes out faster so that you can use it reactively, and it has active frames longer than fsmash so is more lenient in that regard. The main issue in my mind, though, was that you wouldn't react much to what the opponent did to recover. If they look like they're trying to recover high, chase them or intercept them as they fall. If they look like they're setting up for an overB to the stage, ftilt early. If they recover low, intercept with a run off aerial, ftilt, or just ledgehog if it doesn't look like they can make it to the stage. Mostly, be ready to react to multiple recovery options, and then react. If you really feel like you have a read on them, then go for it, but a lot of the time you'll have to react.
Edit: Oh yeah, and iRobinhood, I don't know exact percents of when fox/falco/falcon die on those stages, i just have ballpark numbers. They all die around 110ish (before usmash) on FD, and 100ish on stadium iirc.
Your edgeguarding needs work. It would be a bit easier to critique if you went for edgeguards more often, but it seemed like most of the time you would just fsmash and hope the opponent missed their sweetspot or timed their fastfall after upB poorly. You went off the edge a few times, which is good to see, and it worked out a couple times. It mostly felt like almost always you just expected them to recover in a particular way, and would try to hit them with fsmash. Pika has a ton of good tools against spaceys, he's super dangerous against them off the edge, but even if you aren't comfortable off the edge a down-angled ftilt works much better than fsmash in almost all situations. It hits below the edge, is impossible to avoid via sweetspot from most angles, comes out faster so that you can use it reactively, and it has active frames longer than fsmash so is more lenient in that regard. The main issue in my mind, though, was that you wouldn't react much to what the opponent did to recover. If they look like they're trying to recover high, chase them or intercept them as they fall. If they look like they're setting up for an overB to the stage, ftilt early. If they recover low, intercept with a run off aerial, ftilt, or just ledgehog if it doesn't look like they can make it to the stage. Mostly, be ready to react to multiple recovery options, and then react. If you really feel like you have a read on them, then go for it, but a lot of the time you'll have to react.
Edit: Oh yeah, and iRobinhood, I don't know exact percents of when fox/falco/falcon die on those stages, i just have ballpark numbers. They all die around 110ish (before usmash) on FD, and 100ish on stadium iirc.
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Shadocat
Smash Ace
I keep forgetting that ftilt exists 
lol
Im usually pessimistic about edgeguarding falco, since it could end with me getting side-b spiked.
But thanks for the advice though. Ill try out a 3-hour tech practice as robin suggested and see how that works out.
lolIm usually pessimistic about edgeguarding falco, since it could end with me getting side-b spiked.
But thanks for the advice though. Ill try out a 3-hour tech practice as robin suggested and see how that works out.
ZKBK
Smash Rookie
Ive recently just gotten back into smash and chose pikachu as my main. What would be the best things for me to work on, and should I watch videos of axe and other good pikachu players.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Yea I normally go for it around 110 on most of them. Trainin hard for Apex.
Zhea
Smash Ace
Hey,
So since the Falcon boards don't know/discuss anything below top tiers, I figured I'd try and get the answers from mouse's mouth.
Pikachu is one of those mid-tier matchup's where Falcon can get seriously messed up. I know with good di, Falcon's down throw leads to nothing on stage out side a tech chase(albeit with such a poor tech roll and such a fast tech in place, Falcon can get quite a bit from this) and only links to knee at higher percents when throw off stage, but what can Falcon get from up throw? Are their danger percents for Pikachu? Does he ever get to a safe zone like Marth and Sheik post 100%?
Also is Pikachu's side-b much like luigi's where I should just run out and uair/knee it every time it's in range or am I asking to get tail spiked?
So since the Falcon boards don't know/discuss anything below top tiers, I figured I'd try and get the answers from mouse's mouth.
Pikachu is one of those mid-tier matchup's where Falcon can get seriously messed up. I know with good di, Falcon's down throw leads to nothing on stage out side a tech chase(albeit with such a poor tech roll and such a fast tech in place, Falcon can get quite a bit from this) and only links to knee at higher percents when throw off stage, but what can Falcon get from up throw? Are their danger percents for Pikachu? Does he ever get to a safe zone like Marth and Sheik post 100%?
Also is Pikachu's side-b much like luigi's where I should just run out and uair/knee it every time it's in range or am I asking to get tail spiked?
N64
Smash Champion
At very high percents, you can dthrow->knee pika on stage regardless of DI, but i think that's only at around 120%ish (and it's a pretty tight timing). From uthrow I don't think you're guaranteed much. If they DI poorly you can knee, and otherwise you'll pretty much always get a uair. It does put pikachu above falcon, which can be kind of awkward for pikachu to get down without taking damage. And yeah at high enough percent uthrow uair might no longer work (or just wouldn't really be worth it). I would still dthrow most of the time because of the techchasing options you mentioned, but uthrow isn't bad. It makes pikachu still have to think about his DI and react.
Pikachu's side-b is similar in function to luigi's, and you can punish it with uair/knee if he's close enough. Unlike luigi, though, pikachu doesn't need to rely on side-b to get close to the stage. If he's extremely far out, he can side-b and end up close enough to the stage to recover with upB while still being far enough that falcon can't safely jump out to knee pikachu. If he's closer, he doesn't need to side-b, and can just normal fall and upB back. So, if the pikachu you're playing side-bs too close then go ahead and punish him for it, just know that most good pikachus won't against falcon.
Pikachu's side-b is similar in function to luigi's, and you can punish it with uair/knee if he's close enough. Unlike luigi, though, pikachu doesn't need to rely on side-b to get close to the stage. If he's extremely far out, he can side-b and end up close enough to the stage to recover with upB while still being far enough that falcon can't safely jump out to knee pikachu. If he's closer, he doesn't need to side-b, and can just normal fall and upB back. So, if the pikachu you're playing side-bs too close then go ahead and punish him for it, just know that most good pikachus won't against falcon.
Zhea
Smash Ace
Interesting. That's about what I thought, didn't know about the 120% with down throw. I think I'll sit down and see If I can grind out a knee at the usual percents. It's doubt - but it would be a huge step up if that's the case.
Zhea
Smash Ace
Been Running some tests tonight, definitely going to have to grab some one to help me confirm this. U-air definitely works past 60%. Knee is more nebulous. There's a lot of times where it looks like it catch's pikachu right as he exit's hit lag. There's some other times and Di's where the above is true, but because of how deep falcon's knee is in pikachu, I don't know if jumping would even do anything. Away is actually looking better then down and away which is weird for falcon up-throw combos. I'll update when I can grab someone to test this with.
N64
Smash Champion
The 120% thing is just an estimate and very probably inaccurate. I just know when I get to high enough percent, dthrow->knee works and I haven't found a DI that avoids it. Falcon's uthrow does leave a lot of room for DI shenanigans to make falcon's followup awkward. The main things you have to worry about for if/when uthrow->knee works is:
1) platform techs are a possibility, but again you can often follow pika's tech and either get a grab or stomp (into knee) if you read right.
and 2) pika's nair comes out fairly fast and covers his whole body, so if he has just a few frames between when his hitlag ends and when falcon's knee would connect, he can nair and stop it. If they come out simultaneously though, knee of course wins.
1) platform techs are a possibility, but again you can often follow pika's tech and either get a grab or stomp (into knee) if you read right.
and 2) pika's nair comes out fairly fast and covers his whole body, so if he has just a few frames between when his hitlag ends and when falcon's knee would connect, he can nair and stop it. If they come out simultaneously though, knee of course wins.
Zhea
Smash Ace
Yeah, Up-throw to bait plat form techs was mainly what falcon had to rely on, since pikachu has such bad tech rolls. But even if Knee can only trade, trading a knee for a pikachu nair when pikachu is at 70% is pretty good. Similar to Marth, If falcon isn't frame perfect Marth can put a fair out, but if falcon is at least close, it trades. I'm mostly worried about pikachu jumping out, or if you read the DI wrong, tail-spiking you as you sail over him.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Can we discuss stages/bans in regards to the top tiers(popular chars)??
This is probably what I would go with. Criticism welcome.
Fox/Falco
- Ban YS, PS
- Keep FD, BF
Sheik
- Ban FD, YS
- Keep
Marth
- Ban YS, BF, PS
- Keep
Puffballz
- Ban DL
- Keep YS, BF, PS
Peach
- Ban DL
- Keep YS, BF, PS
Cpt. Falcon
- Ban DL
- Keep FD, BF
This is probably what I would go with. Criticism welcome.
Fox/Falco
- Ban YS, PS
- Keep FD, BF
Sheik
- Ban FD, YS
- Keep
Marth
- Ban YS, BF, PS
- Keep
Puffballz
- Ban DL
- Keep YS, BF, PS
Peach
- Ban DL
- Keep YS, BF, PS
Cpt. Falcon
- Ban DL
- Keep FD, BF
Zhea
Smash Ace
Honestly if you can play on FoD, strike DL and BF and watch falcon squirm.
Captain Smuckers
Smash Journeyman
most falcons get depressed when we don't have battlefield or dreamland
Zhea
Smash Ace
As long as FD is a counter pick, you can always force Falcon on to YS or FoD For neutral.
N64
Smash Champion
THOSE ARE AWFUL DKUO YOU"RE THE WORST.
jk, that chart looks pretty good to me. I have slightly different preferences in a couple spots, but that's probably accurate to most pikas.
jk, that chart looks pretty good to me. I have slightly different preferences in a couple spots, but that's probably accurate to most pikas.
oukd
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2010
- Messages
- 1,464
a lot of my cp'ing habits rely on avoiding stages that my opponent is comfortable on, and fod is peach's home for the most part
- i wanted to put fd lower just because its hard to approach plus it lacks plats, but its much easier to corner peach and react to things. theoretically it should be ok
- i put fod lower not only due to peach comfort but also high ceiling and awkward plats. im not worried about low plat dsmash tbh, but plats interrupt my shffl game
- i put ys higher since its hard to gimp peach on large stages and plat abuse on the 3-plat stages is amazing vs peach. keep in mind its still ys and you still die fast
- wasnt sure about ps vs bf. i like bf's top plat and ledges but the higher ceiling puts me off. ps has neat pika tricks on transformations + low ceiling which is nice
N64
Smash Champion
So here is my preference chart, following dkuo's layout:
The main differences you'll probably notice, dkuo, is that I like FoD a lot. Except against marth (and to a lesser extent, peach). I also don't much like BF vs sheik, the stage layout is pretty decent for needle shenanigans and run-off aerials and such. Lastly, I do like FD vs marth, as I don't have to worry about dealing with any platform techs into utilts or just never getting down through platforms if I end up above him. I can just nair into him all day. And of course, this list changes depending on who i'm fighting against.
But this again is my preference chart, so to everyone else: dkuo's chart is probably a better general guideline.
The main differences you'll probably notice, dkuo, is that I like FoD a lot. Except against marth (and to a lesser extent, peach). I also don't much like BF vs sheik, the stage layout is pretty decent for needle shenanigans and run-off aerials and such. Lastly, I do like FD vs marth, as I don't have to worry about dealing with any platform techs into utilts or just never getting down through platforms if I end up above him. I can just nair into him all day. And of course, this list changes depending on who i'm fighting against.
But this again is my preference chart, so to everyone else: dkuo's chart is probably a better general guideline.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Hey so what are you guys using to make these charts? I want to make my own but make it look the same and as organized as you guys. I'm going to make a hybrid based of both of your charts and my preferences.
Zhea
Smash Ace
Probably MS Paint.
Zhea
Smash Ace
Curious. Why the aversion to YS against Falcon? Is there some terrible gimmick there?
N64
Smash Champion
i just opened his chart in mspaint and moved stuff around.
Edit: About Yoshi's, pikachu doesn't really benefit from the stage much. It's only particularly useful against chars that just survive too long on other stages. Falcon can at least do walljump stuff and kill pika pretty quicly on the stage, while pikachu doesn't really gain much from the stage in that matchup.
Edit: About Yoshi's, pikachu doesn't really benefit from the stage much. It's only particularly useful against chars that just survive too long on other stages. Falcon can at least do walljump stuff and kill pika pretty quicly on the stage, while pikachu doesn't really gain much from the stage in that matchup.
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Zhea
Smash Ace
Oh btw guess I should add this. Sat down and tested this with a friend last night. U-throw Knee on Pikachu works from about 70% to 110 with any variation of away DI. If Falcon is even a little sloppy you can jump out of it. Or trade with nair/uair, U-throw uair works from 30% to too high to matter with all variations of away DI. Same stipulations as above except uair probably won't trade with falcon's uair.
oukd
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2010
- Messages
- 1,464
i used excel and took a screenshot lol
edit
pika players generally dislike ys, but especially vs falcon since pika dies super fast (and falcon already blows pika up pretty early compared to the other characters) at least thats the general consensus
my own reason is that playing a mid/low-tier character you sometimes rely on volatile conversions that the opponent doesn't expect. this is especially true for pika vs falcon since theres a bunch of ways you can gimp and edgeguard falcon. ys neutralizes this by giving falcon the potential for super-early kills as well...and losing that edge feels pretty bad as pika
edit2
1300 B)
edit
pika players generally dislike ys, but especially vs falcon since pika dies super fast (and falcon already blows pika up pretty early compared to the other characters) at least thats the general consensus
my own reason is that playing a mid/low-tier character you sometimes rely on volatile conversions that the opponent doesn't expect. this is especially true for pika vs falcon since theres a bunch of ways you can gimp and edgeguard falcon. ys neutralizes this by giving falcon the potential for super-early kills as well...and losing that edge feels pretty bad as pika
edit2
1300 B)
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Zhea
Smash Ace
I also feel that Pika's movement on YS is very limted due to the size of the stage. stages like FD and PS are much better because they just give Pika so much room to move around.
In short, YS is the bane of Pika's existence LOL
In short, YS is the bane of Pika's existence LOL
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
What's Pika's tech in place frame data again?
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
So tech in place + spot dodge is godly
oukd
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2010
- Messages
- 1,464
tech in place spotdodge is good for some things (ie read/reaction shines/other quick attacks) and not for others (ie preemptive meaty)
just think of it as a generally solid escape against people who dont know the mu. ie you tech in place twice, they catch on, but on the 3rd tech in place they try to cover it and their attack goes through because they dont know about the 4 frames
another example of its use, watch axe's pika vs s2j's falcon, he goes for tech in place dsmash a lot since s2j's dair just goes through the 4 frame invuln
just think of it as a generally solid escape against people who dont know the mu. ie you tech in place twice, they catch on, but on the 3rd tech in place they try to cover it and their attack goes through because they dont know about the 4 frames
another example of its use, watch axe's pika vs s2j's falcon, he goes for tech in place dsmash a lot since s2j's dair just goes through the 4 frame invuln
N64
Smash Champion
Watched your streamed matches axe, good stuff. It felt like you had Leffen, but that's such a volatile matchup. 9th at such a huge tourney is still awesome!
Teach me how to wreck Marth as hard as you do. Every time I watch you play that matchup it makes me feel pika is a pocket counter to him.
Teach me how to wreck Marth as hard as you do. Every time I watch you play that matchup it makes me feel pika is a pocket counter to him.
oukd
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2010
- Messages
- 1,464
this is important apex footage guys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN8B9oze6Yg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN8B9oze6Yg
I'm dying.