Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

[C.J.]

I'm so proud of you, @ smashkng . You're making me able to stay away from here longer and longer <3

WRT early % fthrow-spikes
fthrow x1-> dair works on every character (maaybbeeee not Lucario/Zelda? I'd have to double check, but I think they work).

If you're really careful about your drifting after fthrow x2->dair on Diddy it's a guaranteed 0-death since you can tap him out of barrels too!

For DDD, after the dair if the DDD jumps at all footstool->dair is guaranteed so you get the 0-death on him. If he upBs immediately lolDDDupB.

 

[Jackson]

I'm so proud of you, @ smashkng . You're making me able to stay away from here longer and longer <3

WRT early % fthrow-spikes
fthrow x1-> dair works on every character (maaybbeeee not Lucario/Zelda? I'd have to double check, but I think they work).

If you're really careful about your drifting after fthrow x2->dair on Diddy it's a guaranteed 0-death since you can tap him out of barrels too!

For DDD, after the dair if the DDD jumps at all footstool->dair is guaranteed so you get the 0-death on him. If he upBs immediately lolDDDupB.

Thanks for your advice CJ. I've seen your Marth a bit and you clearly know what you're doing.

 

[C.J.]

You've seen my Marth?
o_O

I haven't had anything uploaded since like... 2010 or something.

 

[Jackson]

You've seen my Marth?
o_O

I haven't had anything uploaded since like... 2010 or something.

Haha, actually just heard about you on the boards, so I searched something like "ssbb marth cj" on YouTube. Also, since I have you, what is the best way to land that Fthrow Dair on enemies? I would love to get those gimps but I'm kinda struggling.

 

[C.J.]

It's really just timing which varies on character. The most important thing to remember is that the lag on your throws is longer the heavier the other character is. So you have to alter your timing based on their weight.

 

[Jackson]

It's really just timing which varies on character. The most important thing to remember is that the lag on your throws is longer the heavier the other character is. So you have to alter your timing based on their weight.

Good to know. Thanks CJ

 

[Jackson]

I often have problems when fighting Olimar. This one guy I play just spams pikmin throw, FSmash and Usmash, and I feel like I can't approach except through predictable hops, then Fairs. Anyone got advice for fighting this annoying guy?

 

[C.J.]

@ clowsui has something written up on Oli

 

[Shaya]

Jackson, if you don't mind, keep these question threads to our Q&A thread.

 

[Jackson]

Jackson, if you don't mind, keep these question threads to our Q&A thread.

Ah, right. Sorry , I'm still new to the boards.

 

[clowsui]

http://smashboards.com/threads/kadajs-ask-me-anything-thread.294686/page-24#post-14314854 olimar

 

[CURRY]

I'm certain this has probably been asked a million times. I don't feel like going through all 263 pages.
I don't know, I'm thinking of getting a secondary, Marth seems really cool. :3

So when recovering down, is there some weird trick people do to prevent being juggled/recover down? Or no...?

 

[smashkng]

Wavebounce side bs (both turn-around and non-turn around. If you want to do non-turn around, while MOVING forward, quickly smash back-forward), saving double jump and using it to move away from the opponent and then FF air dodge/Fair (Marth has a good fast fall) are good ways to get back to the ground. Marth has good enough horizontal aerial movement to do this at least pretty decently. When you're in the air, you want your front to face the opponent AND not be directly above them, but more like diagonally above them where your Fair can protect you from their juggle attempts. His Bair is pretty bad when Marth is above the opponent, while Fair covers his entire front body from the opponent within frames 4 to 8. So making use of side b and Bair to have Marth be in front of the opponent while he's above them is a great idea.

 

[C.J.]

The MOST important thing, other than not being super predictable, is to be smart with your FF. You have a wonderful FF so mixing up when you use it (in conjunction with you AD) will help you a lot. FF uair as they jump (think relative velocity) will also do wonders for you to reverse the situation.

DB1 will reset your FF if necessary for some reason.

Don't be afraid to footstool them/their attacks as well.

And if all else fails, just go to the ledge.

Also, a note on fair's coverage.
Frame 4 is above your head and frame 8 is under your feet. It moves in an arc through time with those constraints.
So frame 5 is like diagonally above you, frame 6 is mostly in front of you, frame 7 is diagonally below you.

 

[CURRY]

Wavebounce side bs ...

I'm assuming this is shield breaker, "SB" and not "BS"?
And yeah so both you and CJ said "FF". What is FF?

 

[C.J.]

Wavebounce side B's
so DB's

Although wavebouncing/Breversing SB works too.

FF is fast fall

 

[ViperGold42]

What are some good combos against Wolf?

 

[smashkng]

Landing Uair -> Usmash/SH aerials. The landing Uair -> Usmash usually hits Wolf behind you in an angle where it's pretty easy to follow-up on Wolf plus it deals like a total of 35% damage. The landing Uair combos works until around 13% (up to about 18% if not tippered). Uair is safe on block if you space it. Dtilt->Dtilt or DB (the Dtilt only working if hitting from close and at lower percents). Landing Fair at low %s -> dash and DB. True combos from throws on Wolf (along with other things that could help you to understand the Wolf MU better) can be found here: http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-vs-c-stick-mashing-wolf.345605/#post-16196588.

Other things are just strings, but still almost guarateed to work like Fair into Fair in the air at lower %s (works to higher percents if Fair is staler). The higher the percent on the opponent the better DB1 combos into things that a. Against someone like Wolf, from around 170% DB can combo into other things like Utilt and Dsmash. Overall comboing Wolf is like comboing something like Snake because of his weight and fall speed similarity: it shouldn't be hard but still, Marth can string just about any character very easily, that's how Marth can rack up damage against any character very fast.

 

[ViperGold42]

Landing Uair -> Usmash/SH aerials. The landing Uair -> Usmash usually hits Wolf behind you in an angle where it's pretty easy to follow-up on Wolf plus it deals like a total of 35% damage. The landing Uair combos works until around 13% (up to about 18% if not tippered). Uair is safe on block if you space it. Dtilt->Dtilt or DB (the Dtilt only working if hitting from close and at lower percents). Landing Fair at low %s -> dash and DB. True combos from throws on Wolf (along with other things that could help you to understand the Wolf MU better) can be found here: http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-vs-c-stick-mashing-wolf.345605/#post-16196588.

Other things are just strings, but still almost guarateed to work like Fair into Fair in the air at lower %s (works to higher percents if Fair is staler). The higher the percent on the opponent the better DB1 combos into things that a. Against someone like Wolf, from around 170% DB can combo into other things like Utilt and Dsmash. Overall comboing Wolf is like comboing something like Snake because of his weight and fall speed similarity: it shouldn't be hard but still, Marth can string just about any character very easily, that's how Marth can rack up damage against any character very fast.

Okay, let me hit you with this question. the best chaingrab in that thread is F-throw? what's a good follow up?

 

[smashkng]

You can do 2 Fthrows and then tipper Fsmash or Dair to 0-death the Wolf at 0%. Everything works the same with only 1 Fthrow. Wolf should not survive the Dair other than by SDIing and landing on the stage because of his extremely bad metoer cancel and slow up b. Then there are aerials and DB you can do out of Fthrow at 0% but Fsmashing (or Dairing him offstage) is usually the better option. That's all which is guarateed. But although not guaranteed Fthrow and Uthrow (and Dthrow too when close to the edge) put Wolf in really bad positions just like the throws do against everyone else, where if guessed the DI right you can pull out strings out of the throws for a ton of damage, usually from something like Fair after the throw.

 

[ViperGold42]

You can do 2 Fthrows and then tipper Fsmash or Dair to 0-death the Wolf at 0%. Everything works the same with only 1 Fthrow. Wolf should not survive the Dair other than by SDIing and landing on the stage because of his extremely bad metoer cancel and slow up b. Then there are aerials and DB you can do out of Fthrow at 0% but Fsmashing (or Dairing him offstage) is usually the better option. That's all which is guarateed. But although not guaranteed Fthrow and Uthrow (and Dthrow too when close to the edge) put Wolf in really bad positions just like the throws do against everyone else, where if guessed the DI right you can pull out strings out of the throws for a ton of damage, usually from something like Fair after the throw.

Alright I'm coming to be honest, I just picked up Marth just a few weeks ago and I havent found out what Tipping is. What is that suppose to mean? Does it mean the edge of the sword where it has the most knockback or something like that?

 

[smashkng]

Exactly. The tip of the sword is the sweetspot on pretty much every move Marth has except Counter. Knockback wise only Utilt is weaker when tipped. It's pretty small but if you are good at tipping his moves (especially aerials) then you can KO much earlier. Without sweetspotting KOing with Marth can be very hard.

 

[ViperGold42]

Exactly. The tip of the sword is the sweetspot on pretty much every move Marth has except Counter. Knockback wise only Utilt is weaker when tipped. It's pretty small but if you are good at tipping his moves (especially aerials) then you can KO much earlier. Without sweetspotting KOing with Marth can be very hard.

So....How would I go about training to be more accurate with tipping?

 

[smashkng]

That's a great idea. Things to think about in order to space really well is written in the lower part of this long post: http://smashboards.com/threads/ask-...-the-marth-faqs.188570/page-262#post-16324845 . And if you want some sort of training with the spacing. I don't practice spacing this way, but like CJ has said before do some 99 stock CPU level 3 battles and try to take 50 stocks without missing any tippers.

 

[CURRY]

So sometimes you're just really, really far down, underneath the stage.
Your only hope is if you do a Dancing Blade then you do the Dolphin Slash, so you at least get that little bit of elevation.
Sometimes I find myself do the second slash of Dancing Blade (up) instead of doing a Dolphin Slash.
It's pretty easy to time this and prevent it; but if I'm playing with friends or something, I most likely won't be able to do that, under pressure (I usually play alone)

So yeah. Is it worth the risk? Also, what are some correct ways to recover using Dancing Blade?
When you recover and your opponent goes offstage to try to get you, is it better to use DB or FAir?

Oh yeah. Thanks all of you for replying so quickly. I'm really surprised that this section of the Forums is so active. >.>

 

[Jackson]

I would like a bit more elaboration on the Fthrow to Dair combo. Do you just fullhop off the stage after the throw and Dair, or do you need to jump a certain way?

 

[smashkng]

You can use DB to slow down your falling a bit. It even cancels fast falling. If you're THAT low, then of course DB and then Up b is your only option. You CAN change your place a bit with a wavebounce DB though. If you're doing DB 2 instead then you're just pressing b too early. The frame window of error is not that tight when you do jump DB1 and then up b. It's not hard to learn to avoid that from happening. But getting that low offstage shouldn't happen often anyway. And the less horizontally you angle your up b, the more height it gets (even if the difference is pretty small, it can matter sometimes). And I think if they're rushing into you, Fair is better than DB. You can just DS too though it will beat anything because of its invincibility (which starts from frame 1 and hits first on frame 5). If you want your DS to go as far horizontally as possible, just hold forward as much as you can immediately after pressing up and b. Marth's ledge sweetspot range is huge anyway you'll be surprised how far he can grab the ledge from. Or you can just fast fall to recover really low where the opponent can't reach you.

Jackson, the Fthrow to Dair on everyone is done this way:
1st you Fthrow
2nd you try to buffer a dash
3rd you press jump and buffer Dair out of the jump to do it as soon as possible (I am not sure how much difference results wise you get from choosing short hop over full hop, I like full hopping against characters like Falco and short hopping against someone like DDD out of it). The game has a 10 frames buffer window out of anything but ledge drops and doing a move after a ledge jump. Buffered dashes is a 5-frame window. If you smash the control stick too early you'll buffer a walk instead.

 

[Jackson]

You can use DB to slow down your falling a bit. It even cancels fast falling. If you're THAT low, then of course DB and then Up b is your only option. You CAN change your place a bit with a wavebounce DB though. If you're doing DB 2 instead then you're just pressing b too early. The frame window of error is not that tight when you do jump DB1 and then up b. It's not hard to learn to avoid that from happening. But getting that low offstage shouldn't happen often anyway. And the less horizontally you angle your up b, the more height it gets (even if the difference is pretty small, it can matter sometimes). And I think if they're rushing into you, Fair is better than DB. You can just DS too though it will beat anything because of its invincibility (which starts from frame 1 and hits first on frame 5). If you want your DS to go as far horizontally as possible, just hold forward as much as you can immediately after pressing up and b. Marth's ledge sweetspot range is huge anyway you'll be surprised how far he can grab the ledge from. Or you can just fast fall to recover really low where the opponent can't reach you.

Jackson, the Fthrow to Dair on everyone is done this way:
1st you Fthrow
2nd you try to buffer a dash
3rd you press jump and buffer Dair out of the jump to do it as soon as possible (I am not sure how much difference results wise you get from choosing short hop over full hop, I like full hopping against characters like Falco and short hopping against someone like DDD out of it). The game has a 10 frames buffer window out of anything but ledge drops and doing a move after a ledge jump. Buffered dashes is a 5-frame window. If you smash the control stick too early you'll buffer a walk instead.

Ah, thanks Smashkng. I see how to do it now, but it'll take practice to do it consistently. But those gimps will be worth it

 

[smashkng]

I think the trickiest part is knowing when to jump after the dash. The timing depends per character cause Fthrow's speed depends on the victim's weight.

 

[CURRY]

At about what percent should my opponents be dying at in a 1v1 match if things are tipped 100% of the time?
What about if not consistently?

 

[smashkng]

Tipper Nair can KO MK prolly at around 110%. Non-tipper prolly not until 180%. Tipper moves KO especially much earlier if the opponent fails to DI. Tipper Uair KOs MK at around 130% depending on how far from the top screen he is. Without tippering Uair, you're not KOing until prolly around 180-200%. The difference is KO power is very large except Utilt and Dsmash. Dsmash still KOes like 10% earlier when tippered though. Aerials will be tippered the most out of all moves because they're the easiest to space with. You can't change positioning nearly as quickly on the ground.

 

[-LzR-]

At about what percent should my opponents be dying at in a 1v1 match if things are tipped 100% of the time?
What about if not consistently?

Just remember that this is impossible to do. You are not the only person spacing around so no matter what you do your opponent can screw with your tippers.

 

[smashkng]

Definitely true that they can move around to make tippering much harder. That's also why it's also important to learn things like being able to do things like reading where the opponent will be then tippering them in that situation. For example, when the opponent is above you, put the Uair tipper in a position where it results into the opponent jumping into your tipper.

You'll rarely tipper something like Fsmash even in the perfect world. Not everything will be tippered though aerials are very possible to tipper the majority of the time thanks to Marth's above average aerial mobility. Tippering is not always the best option though. Tippered aerials are frame wise unsafer on block and because non-tippered moves have less knockback it can sometimes be easier to string attacks when you hit with something like untippered Dtilt, Uair or Fair.

 

[Jackson]

Thanks to all of your guys' advice, I feel that my Marth has gotten a lot better! I have another question, though. I almost always do my aerials with the C-Stick (set to smashes). So, to short hop , i use the analog stick (tap jump ON). Problem is, short hopping with this consistently is sort of tough in the heat of battle. I can do it to the side easily but not in place (short hop double Fair) .I have my Y button on Grabs, because i like that much more than Z. I have X on jump, and I use that sometimes. The problem is that short hopping with X and then moving my finger to the C-Stick to do aerials isn't optimal either. Do you guys think I should hop with X and do aerials with Control Stick + A ? I really don't want to stop using the C-Stick to do aerials, but i want to short hop easier also.

 

[ViperGold42]

That's a great idea. Things to think about in order to space really well is written in the lower part of this long post: http://smashboards.com/threads/ask-...-the-marth-faqs.188570/page-262#post-16324845 . And if you want some sort of training with the spacing. I don't practice spacing this way, but like CJ has said before do some 99 stock CPU level 3 battles and try to take 50 stocks without missing any tippers.

so how would practice spacing then?

 

[C.J.]

Other than just playing the game, A LOT, fight a lv 3 computer with 99 stocks. If you use an attack that doesn't tipper, jump off the stage, Your goal is to win by 50 stocks.

You always want to use the c-stick to do aerials. It allows you the most mobility and control over your character since you're not hitting a direction w/ the analog stick. Brawl has a 10 frame buffer window and Marth's jump is 6 frames so you have plenty of time to move your finger to the c-stick. Alternatively, you can learn how to claw.

 

[CURRY]

Other than just playing the game, A LOT, fight a lv 3 computer with 99 stocks. If you use an attack that doesn't tipper, jump off the stage, Your goal is to win by 50 stocks.

You always want to use the c-stick to do aerials. It allows you the most mobility and control over your character since you're not hitting a direction w/ the analog stick. Brawl has a 10 frame buffer window and Marth's jump is 6 frames so you have plenty of time to move your finger to the c-stick. Alternatively, you can learn how to claw.

Cruuud. I think I know what you're talking about by that, where you use your index finger on the Y to jump and A buttons, while thumb on the Cstick...
I find it a lot harder to short hop though. Do a lot of people lose their short hop ability by doing this? Because I see that a lot of people don't use the claw while holding the GC... and lol I just now learned that's it's CALLED the claw xD
so yeah. Why doesn't everyone use it if it generally gives you more access to all the functions of the GC quicker?
Also, is that why people talk about using the other jump button to do something, like grab or shield? (Middle finger for Z or no?)

Marth, right now, is like, my secondary, kinda. I also play Toon, so the Z button (as an aerial) is incorporated into my playstyle a TON.
(And holy crud the Marth boards are really active compared to others)

 

[Jackson]

Ok, good to know that i'm not doing anything wrong, but I guess I'll just need to get better at short hopping.

 

[CURRY]

So yeah, why isn't EVERYONE using the claw, even at the pro tourneys? If it gives you easier access to the cstick, then yeah... it should theoretically be the best way to hold GC.
I find it a lot harder to shorthop with claw; so is it just harder to short hop with the claw in general for everyone?
That's really the main thing I'm thinking about.

 

[Shaya]

It's because it's unnatural, and people will tend to stick to what they've already learnt how to play with. It's a really drastic change going from natural hand positioning and clawing and in most poeple's eyes the benefits/efficiency gains are fact, but it doesn't turn impossibles into possibles.