Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

[Xeylir]

Hey all, I'm pretty new to the competitive scene. I've been studying Marth techniques and such in the stickies, and I have a couple of questions for trying to up my game. I'm probably the best in my social circle, but as someone new to competitive, I'm not particularly confident in my ability.

1. What's the best way to shut down a Snake who's set up ground control? I've got a friend who mains Snake and typically he tries to rule the stage by planting mines and throwing 'nades when I'm far away. Any time he thinks I'm approaching, he'll DACUS/dash attack or start shooting mortars up in the air to keep my on my toes if I try a fair approach. It's typically not hard to break through if I'm willing to take a hit or two, but I feel like there's no reason I should be getting walled by usmash/dash attack/DACUS spam. He's fairly predictable with his dash attack, which I counter easily, but it rarely seems to set up a solid punish. Occasionally I'll run at his usmash camping and counter into it, which typically works, but it feels too risky. What are better ways to take control of the match?

(I'm thinking of learning the glide toss to surprise him the next time he attempts grenades, if anyone would be so kind as to point me to a guide).

2. Dealing with Olimar, more specifically his grab range. I don't have a lot of experience against Olimar, but I do know that he pretty much shuts down the ground with that grab range. >_> Would SH fairs be the best approach here? Much like the Snake main I play against, I can easily shut him down once I get him in the air or offstage, it's just getting past that grab game that's been giving me trouble.

3. Is there any easier technique to help me in mastering pivot grabbing other than constant practice? I've been trying to do the retreating pivot grab for a few days, but I've only managed it once or twice against empty air. I've gotten a few pivot grabs on opponents that have had weird range, but none with the "sliding while grabbing" animation that makes it safer on a miss. And I haven't been able to do it at all with Tap Jump on (I keep accidentally jumping when I try to pivot quickly enough), which is a sacrifice I'm not sure I want to make as I like DS OoS.

4. Is the dair spike a crucial part of Marth's game? I've read conflicting advice on this. Some say to avoid it at all costs because it's just too risky, and others say it should be used whenever I'm confident it will hit. I'm fairly decent with the spacing, though I don't use it very often.

 

[ぱみゅ]

1. Snake is annoying he'll obvisouly look for camping and throwing grenades. Just be careful with their trajectory so you can be far from explosions. As for Mines, I think you can just Dtilt them, I'll let Shaya/CJ confirm that part. Now, I wouldn't recommend to Counter. Keep your Fair walling up, and if you keep predicting the Dash Attacks/DACUSes, just Shield+Grab, Fthrow/Uthrow and juggle. Keep the pressure, keep it simple. That's at least my personal advise.
There is actually a quite good guide for this one Matchup, lemme look for it.

2. (Writeup pending)

3. Run Left + Z + C-stick Right. It works the other way around, too.
However, the most effective one is Run Left+C-stick Down+Z+Analog Stick Right. Way more difficult, but way more rewarding.

4. It's not crucial, but if you see an opening and you've ABSOLUTELY mastered the spacing, you may go for it.

 

[C.J.]

yea @ Jackson

 

[C.J.]

http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-not-go-boom.314417/ is the write-up on Snake.

I like playing closer to the ground more than I used to so I don't FH as much unless I'm trying to really slow down the pace of the match. Otherwise it's still pretty good and, after you read it, I'm more than happy to answer any specific questions relating to the MU or to elaborate on anything.

WRT the dsmashes, while you CAN dtilt them, it's so much safer/faster to just walk to them and PS them. Remember your shield goes out farther than your body so while you're not standing on the mine, your shield will still hit it setting it off (and PSing it in the process).

 

[Jackson]

Mr R is my favorite Marth main. His play style is cool.

 

[1PokeMastr]

PS window is 3 frames, not 4 (I think it's just a typo from CJ or w/e).


Also practice makes perfect, there is no technique or special way to make you better, faster.. outside of just practicing.

 

[CURRY]

What the heck PokeMastr, you've been on the Toon Link Q&A, as well as the Marth. Do you check EVERY character, stalk me, or are just here on the forums often?

EDIT:
Sorry if that sounded harsh, because it wasn't supposed to be.

 

[Mr-R]

I've been using tap jump off since the beginning. There's 2 ways to doing it.

1- You use ur index finger to jump, your middle finger to shield and your thumb to hit the B button. I never use this method since shielding with your middle finger feels un natural to me.
2- You slide your thumb from the Y button to the B button. It's pretty easy to execute once you get it down.

 

[Shaya]

Oh there you go, Ramin the evil enchantress. =)

 

[Jackson]

Sup Mr R. Didn't even know you were on here. But anyway, i thought using Dolphin Slash Oos without Tap jump made it delayed. Is this not true?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Not if you know how to buffer.

 

[CURRY]

WHAT IS BUFFERING :C
(in the Brawl sense)

 

[Shaya]

For every frame you're free to do an action, the game will check your last 10 frames worth of actions and do them.

Something like Fast Fall Fair, you have 8 frames of landing lag. At the 9th frame, any action you used during the lag will play out.

 

[Jackson]

For every frame you're free to do an action, the game will check your last 10 frames worth of actions and do them.

Something like Fast Fall Fair, you have 8 frames of landing lag. At the 9th frame, any action you used during the lag will play out.

So buffering is basically what allows us to do things like Fthrow to Fsmash or Dair right? So you would buffer a smash during the throw.

 

[Shaya]

The frame advantage of fthrow fsmash is usually quite large, so you can get away with not buffering it. In the case of Meta Knight, you get the tipper by waiting just a brief moment then fsmashing (if you don't want to stutter step).

But yes, fthrowing someone and c sticking is usually quite easy to buffer something.

Anywho, I could've worded the buffering thing a bit better.
Basically when you transition from a state in which you cannot take any actions into one which you can, the game will input for you all inputs sequentially from the previous 10 frames.

 

[Jackson]

The frame advantage of fthrow fsmash is usually quite large, so you can get away with not buffering it. In the case of Meta Knight, you get the tipper by waiting just a brief moment then fsmashing (if you don't want to stutter step).

But yes, fthrowing someone and c sticking is usually quite easy to buffer something.

Anywho, I could've worded the buffering thing a bit better.
Basically when you transition from a state in which you cannot take any actions into one which you can, the game will input for you all inputs sequentially from the previous 10 frames.

Ah. So in a nutshell, it allows the player to begin an action at the earliest possible time.

 

[1PokeMastr]

I post pretty much everywhere.

 

[GoblinGamerKid]

So I have my own little question here, I don't know if this was already asked or something but it looks like a simple answer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=x8dMCVlDGxw#t=62 At 1:02 how is leon running and then f-smashes?? I seen this a couple times now and wondering how to do it :U

 

[CURRY]

So I have my own little question here, I don't know if this was already asked or something but it looks like a simple answer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=x8dMCVlDGxw#t=62 At 1:02 how is leon running and then f-smashes?? I seen this a couple times now and wondering how to do it :U

FOXTROTTING.
It's pretty much where you spam your dash. So you repeatedly tap to run; and then you can do a tap + attack to do a smash.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X9oqJEXYMM&list=PL9esNp9LRV2QcWcbiFF_x8mEKtGj46lo2

 

[Jackson]

^ yep. You can easily do dancing blade out of a foxtrot as well which is very useful IMO.

 

[CURRY]

^ yep. You can easily do dancing blade out of a foxtrot as well which is very useful IMO.

You can DB out of dash too.
Also :D that was the first time I answered a question, I think...

 

[GoblinGamerKid]

You can DB out of dash too.
Also :D that was the first time I answered a question, I think...

Nah man, i'm pretty sure this isnt fox trotting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ANcGESsF_vU#t=8 At 0:08 alright this is clearly a better example, mr r is doing a full dash and then f-smashes, this is not fox trot dude lolol, but my question still is how is he doing this and how do I perform it??

 

[C.J.]

Dude lolol it is foxtrotting. Deal with it.

You dash, at the end of the dash, input a second dash (a.k.a. foxtrotting) and cancel it into a stutterstep fsmash.

 

[CURRY]

;-;
Sooooo after doing the claw grip, I kinda modified it... did Z hop, X/Y grab, everything else normal.
NOW I FIND THAT I BARELY DO NAIR.
This is problematic because on Toon Link, my main, Nair is kind of a staple thing that shouldn't be used only once in like a minute.
Now, I'm asking this because TL boards generally aren't active. And Marth = claw.
So earlier in the thread, you guys talked about using only the standard zgrab, x/y jump, etc. for claw.
Some questions:
-How long does it take until your hands get uncomfortable or sore? With zjump, it takes about ~1 1/2 hours I think.
-Is it easy to shorthop?
-Did you find yourself using Nair a lot less than before...?

I swear, this will be the last time that I change controller schemes T-T

 

[Shaya]

What? I thought we established that most people don't play claw?

And I guess you need to get used to pressing the A button?

 

[CURRY]

ASDF WHAT DARNIT
so you guys can play perfectly well without it? >.>
Aaugh. I guess I'll change back. >.> it's not as comfortable... and it kinda negatively affected my TL so might as well...
hoppefulllyyyyyy won't be as traumatic as going into a completely new style.
So just normal, natural position is fine...
Well I just kinda assumed that you guys did when you said that most people don't use claw... ._.

Oh yeah, you actually kinda have to make more of an effort to shorthop doing claw than natural. I think.
with the natural positioning, you kinda just roll your thumb over the jump and attack, yes? Yeah, with claw it's kinda hard :I
Although people say it's easy. I'm just not a claw person, I guess. ._.

 

[Jackson]

I agree with you Curry. Clawing cramps my hand and makes it awkward to press buttons. Your control scheme should be comfortable AND functional IMO.

 

[Shaya]

Grab release to down air on Meta Knight for example, some would tell you that switching to claw to execute it makes it a little easier. But considering how that's set up, you have the "time" to switch your fingers around on the fly. But yeah... you don't need it.

 

[CURRY]

Okay. So deciding to swatch back to the natural hold then...
So do you guys still cstick your aerials?
Also, how do we practice DI?
So far, I'm letting myself simply get beat up by CPUs. But they freaking just DODGE all the time, or they just stand there, depending on the CPU level. So it's really slow. Do I simply just fight...? sometimes I forgot that I'm trying to practice DI :|

 

[Shaya]

Most of the time I c-stick aerials. Way I use a gc controller is different to most, I don't mind using the control stick for jumping/aerials when its convenient to do so.

Practicing basic DI is for the most part, learning to hold up. If you mean things like smash di, eh... it's hard.
Something I've been trying out recently is 1v3 level 9 CPUs with team attack off, two of the CPUs are Meta Knight and Snake and the thirds random. You're getting hit constantly, so you can get into the swing of always trying to attack and at the same time transition to Smash-DI movements on the fly. Try to avoid camping the ledge.

 

[CURRY]

Most of the time I c-stick aerials. Way I use a gc controller is different to most, I don't mind using the control stick for jumping/aerials when its convenient to do so.

Practicing basic DI is for the most part, learning to hold up. If you mean things like smash di, eh... it's hard.
Something I've been trying out recently is 1v3 level 9 CPUs with team attack off, two of the CPUs are Meta Knight and Snake and the thirds random. You're getting hit constantly, so you can get into the swing of always trying to attack and at the same time transition to Smash-DI movements on the fly. Try to avoid camping the ledge.

LOLOLOL OH MY GOD. HOLDING UP. XD
I like how that covers being launched to the sides... which is how most people KO anyway.
Well, I don't know, I remember actually used to being able to do by (doing the things in that video that EVERYONE links to, you know... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hQIy7P7RWo) doing the diagonal up in the opposite direction when launched to the side, and then putting control stick to the side when launched up. Like aaaugh. For some reason, I intensely learned momentum cancelling and then lost my ability to DI -_-
So yeah I guess I'll try to just hold "up" for now...

And yes, in my previous post, I was talking about the basic DI.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Throw a bob omb down, smash up on analog, works as practice for di/ sdi at the same time.

I've done it to the point where proper di is muscle memory and I don't even have to think about it, it just happens unconsciously.


Edit: Experiment with directions as well so you can be ready for most/ all knock back directions.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

smartbomb is better

 

[CURRY]

lol but either way, DIing bombs are going to be something that you expect since you YOURSELF are doing it.
>.> getting knocked around by characters is probably the best choice I guesssss?

EDIT:
oh lol is it that bomb-ombs launch you in a random direction? Because if so, that would be awesome.

 

[CURRY]

... I really have a hard time doing this thing with normal grip.... c-sticking aerials...
Shaya, you are magic. I have no idea how you are able to manage doing a normal grip + cstick if you're going to cstick your aerials...

Augh. So I either I use two different control schemes (kinda scary, I don't think I should do that...) or I can somehow learn how to cstick aerials with normal grip. -.-
Or I could find another secondary. Which I don't really feel like doing.
So yeah. Really the main question is, how the heck do you do that, Shaya? And I assume that you can't shorthop your tap jumps, correct?

 

[ぱみゅ]

For one, once you get a certain level of experience, you can detect your errors and sometimes you KNOW when you messed up and you are going to be hit, and expect it about s much as you expect your own Bob-ombs.
And yes, you can SH with Tap Jump by quickly returning the Stick to neutral (center) position.

 

[Shaya]

I can short hop with tap jump very easily. It's literally how I do probably 100% of my retreating rising aerials.

 

[1PokeMastr]

If you buffer an aerial with tap jump, you always short hop the aerial.

Also the bob omb thing works, trust me.

 

[Jackson]

If you buffer an aerial with tap jump, you always short hop the aerial.

Also the bob omb thing works, trust me.

Cool! So to do this, you basically do a Cstick aerial RIGHT after you jump .

 

[CURRY]

So I'm trying turning Tap Jump on.
It's funny because sometimes, because of Tap Jump, I accidentally do something smart and somehow get into a advantageous state..
Sooooo. You said that buffering an attack with tap jump turns it into a short hop attack. Yeeahhhhh so didn't we discuss earlier that it's not very good doing rising Fairs? ._.
Meh. Well. So shorthopping with tap jump is hard to do CONSISTENTLY. Is that just something you have to practice? :<
Also although a lot better than clawing for me, it still takes some time to switch from the jump/special/attack pad (I don't know what to call it) to the cstick... which might affect my game? :<