Ask a quick question, get a quick answer (The Marth FAQ's)

[Zano]

it's not flashy enough

 

[Attila the Hun]

^THANKYOU.

Any input though? xD

 

[Shaya]

Think about it for a second.

Can you footstool Wario out of a grab release?
I can tell you when you could -possibly- do so, but y'know... a wario without a jump, a LOW HEIGHT moving platform (lylat / rainbow cruise) that you can instantly platform cancel on, followed by a buffered dash off / platform drop to footstool wario in the 20 frames of leeway you have.

So in other words.
If you think about it.
It isn't
possible.
If
you
think
about
it.

 

[Attila the Hun]

That doesn't answer whether or not it's possible to footstool spike Wario in general, though. I'll just test it Saturdayy when I can play with another person.

 

[reallyfastcar]

How do I practice my movement speed of Marth? I always see people sprinting really clean after landing and just fast falling attacks?

 

[Osennecho]

How do I practice my movement speed of Marth? I always see people sprinting really clean after landing and just fast falling attacks?

For starters do you know about RCO lag? I'd recommend learning about RCO lag before trying to speed anything else up. A lot of the rest is done by buffering.
Some info on RCO lag can be found here: http://www.smashboards.com/threads/landing-penalty-rco-lag.252451/
and here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMmN7chJEW8
I don't recommend attempting the dolphin slash cancel in the ending part of the second video though as it is way to difficult and situational for you, me, and most people atm.
If there's more, I hope someone better than me adds it, but that's all I can help you with atm.

 

[Angiance]

How do I practice my movement speed of Marth? I always see people sprinting really clean after landing and just fast falling attacks?

Two basic attack patterns: Fast Falled F-Air > Retreat F-Air; D-Tilt > Retreat F-Air. Keep that spacing on point, by the way

 

[PEACE7]

Whoops wrong thread

 

[reallyfastcar]

Thanks guys, I had no clue about the RCO lag.
And i'll practice those moves Angiance.
This game always gets so indepth.

 

[ぱみゅ]

This game is indeed deeper than it looks.
Many top players still ignore many things about it.
Many researchers still can't figure how some stuff work.

 

[Angiance]

This game is indeed deeper than it looks.
Many top players still ignore many things about it.
Many researchers still can't figure how some stuff work.

True; seeing high tier characters being used in a camping manner is terribly depressing; many players just don't feel the need to explore outside the box

 

[1PokeMastr]

Sometimes outside the box can be pretty awful.
Anything can be outside the box, but not much of it can be great.
Just different ways to look at things, approaching in a different manner, but with the same intent.
:3

 

[light-zion]

How do you deal with Sonics spindash? Do approach or just stall? Its hard to even hit sonic when he does Approach because they just spindash>upB

Its probably just me because I'm on wifi.

 

[Shaya]

Beyond wifi,

Keep trying to swing later and later.
They're either ramboing into you, in which case it's a spacing problem
or they're just waiting for you to swing to go in / punish you.

 

[light-zion]

Ohhh ok thanks Shaya.

 

[Angiance]

Don't chase him; let him come to you

 

[Nicholas1024]

Basically, the problem with sonic is that due to his insane ground speed, he will murder you for whiffing forwards air. If he baits you into swinging when he isn't there, you'll eat the 9% from a dash attack or such. Since a lot of Marth's are used to being able to whiff it without being punished, they'll just keep swinging and get murdered for it. (Yes, I know Fair isn't safe when spaced badly against anyone. However, Sonic can punish it in ways that a lot of characters can't.)

I think the best way to play it is to be extremely patient (hard as that is), and see if you can catch on to their movement patterns. Honestly, I don't fully understand all of sonic's movement options, just keep in mind that his actual approach options aren't all that great, and that he's mostly trying to run away until you get frustrated and do something stupid.

 

[reallyfastcar]

Whats the best way to beat an IKE? with marth of course

 

[Angiance]

Ike's range is beautiful, but he's a snail. Ike's attacks can be outsped, or shielded and punished

 

[-LzR-]

If you stay in Marth range, Ike is in trouble, if you come too close jab beats you but get too far and he wins in range. Shouldn't be hard.

 

[sGale]

If you counter his reverse Aether under the ledge, you can stage spike him if you time it right.

 

[smashkng]

You can shield grab or Up b OoS Ike's between jab 1 and 2 if you do it fast (shield grab maybe not if jab is spaced?). If you shield jab 2 and are fast enough, Dsmash OoS also works even if he goes for jab 3 ASAP. Bair is prolly his most troubling move because of its range and fast start-up unlike his other aerials. And at kill %s watch out for jab 1 into Utilt. Pressure>Ike once you get inside his range. Ike has trouble in positions where Fair or Nair is too slow to throw you out, because then he only has air dodge left.

Get Ike offstage, we destroy him there. Counter ***** his Up b but remember that if he spaces his Up b so that it only hits our feet (which they can do easier when you're onstage and he reverses Up b), it pokes through our Counter. Another good way to edge guard Ike is by ledge grabbing and then invincible Bair before or immediately after Super Armor frames (he has super armor between 18-38, it ends when he starts rising, but he doesn't go to the top instantly so you can still hit him out there). Or just stage spike him with Up b/Fair before or after SA frames (both being invincible as well after a quick ledge drop).

 

[Ahenobarbus]

Hey guys, I'm an Ike main looking for a secondary (mainly for DDD and MK) and I think I'm leaning toward Marth. I know that Marth doesn't have great MUs against those two, but they're better than Ike's -3's, and since my main strength with Ike is spacing (and since I love the FE series), I thought that Marth would be a nice secondary. I've been paging through the various guides, and I've gotten pretty good at tipping everything from just training mode with CPU set to "run".

I tilt stick with Ike, so my question is this: do any of you Marth mains use tilt-sticking/ any modded control set-up? I was messing with tilt sticking in training mode, and it makes Marth's run off dair possible to recover from (obviously an approach to be used very sparingly) and it definitely makes the nair easier to retreat, but I had trouble buffering my smashes out of throws with joystick+A.

 

[smashkng]

With Marth tilt sticking is bad. It's better to use smash stick because
1 It's harder to Dsmash without charging and almost impossible to control the Shutter Stepping with Fsmash
2 you can't C stick SDI with tilt stick, so you lose the ability to double stick SDI (which helps to get out of moves that are harder to SDI)
You don't need tilt stick to Dair without FFing except from walk-offs, and walk-off Dair with Marth is asking to SD anyway. You just need to hold down on the control stick when you can't FF (for example when you're rising with a jump) and then C stick Dair, and you'll not FF that way. And spacing with Nair isn't a big deal IMO. Most of the time it's better to land with a Fair because Fair covers Marth's entire front body while Nair leaves his feet open for punish (so when you're landing it's better to use Nair when you know they're going to shield or anything else that isn't a damaging attack due to it shield poking easily, but still Fair is just as frame safe as Nair on block).

If I was planning to use Marth for DDD and MK, I'd just drop Ike and use Marth only ( I've done that myself and I just like you used tilt stick for Ike). The MK MU is pretty close to even IMO (but still in MK's favour) but learning it takes a lot of practice and you have to know so much about MK (if you pick any bad option it costs you severely against the bat). And because of how many MKs there are, it's better to just focus on improving your Marth due to it taking a lot of practice to become good with Marth. If you don't want to drop Ike, it's better to just have MK or Snake as a secondary for those MUs, as those characters take less effort to become good with.

The DDD MU with Ike is actually not that bad. A spaced Fair is pretty safe on DDD's shield and Ike edge guards DDD really hard. The problem is getting CG'd at 80% + because he can kill Ike easily offstage at such percents after the chain grab. It's still a hard -1 for Ike though.

 

[1PokeMastr]

You can run off Dair without the tilt stick and fast fall, just tilt the analog halfway down then use C-Stick or A.

Controlled Muscle Memory!

 

[Ahenobarbus]

If I was planning to use Marth for DDD and MK, I'd just drop Ike and use Marth only ( I've done that myself and I just like you used tilt stick for Ike). The MK MU is pretty close to even IMO (but still in MK's favour) but learning it takes a lot of practice and you have to know so much about MK (if you pick any bad option it costs you severely against the bat). And because of how many MKs there are, it's better to just focus on improving your Marth due to it taking a lot of practice to become good with Marth. If you don't want to drop Ike, it's better to just have MK or Snake as a secondary for those MUs, as those characters take less effort to become good with.

After just a few days, I'm starting to see what you mean about switching to Marth outright. I'm not totally sold yet, but exploring with Marth has been a ton of fun. So many more options (oos and otherwise) than jab. And combos out of moves other than jab. Also starting to stare up the immense slope of that learning curve...

Do you have any vids to recommend to someone pretty new to Marth (MK MU and otherwise)? I've watched all of Mr. R. and Mikeneko at Apex 2013 (especially great because Marth mains were commentating the matches).

 

[smashkng]

Watch Mikeneko videos. Anything from about 2012 to 2013. For example him vs Maguro. He is less gimmicky than Leon and Mr. R, so by watching him you can learn what is safe and what is not. Mr. R and Leon usually pick options that may look safe, but only worked because the opponent didn't expect it. Still watching Leon and Mr R helps you learn a lot too, but I've by far learnt the most from watching Mikeneko videos. From Mr. R I've learnt more the ICs MU than anything else.

 

[Ereth]

Hey guys, I'm an Ike main looking for a secondary (mainly for DDD and MK) and I think I'm leaning toward Marth. I know that Marth doesn't have great MUs against those two, but they're better than Ike's -3's, and since my main strength with Ike is spacing (and since I love the FE series), I thought that Marth would be a nice secondary. I've been paging through the various guides, and I've gotten pretty good at tipping everything from just training mode with CPU set to "run".

I tilt stick with Ike, so my question is this: do any of you Marth mains use tilt-sticking/ any modded control set-up? I was messing with tilt sticking in training mode, and it makes Marth's run off dair possible to recover from (obviously an approach to be used very sparingly) and it definitely makes the nair easier to retreat, but I had trouble buffering my smashes out of throws with joystick+A.

Ike is actually really good against D3. Your main tool is backthrow->dash attack then steal the ledge and force to them recover with upB. Then punish him with Uair/Fair/Fsmash/Upsmash you name it.

I play with Ryo and DewDaDash all the time. Ryo usually wins

 

[Nicholas1024]

Speaking of D3, just what does Marth do in that matchup? I feel like I just get completely destroyed if I mess up a forwards air.

 

[Zano]

you pick mk or space everything perfectly.

 

[Angiance]

As Marth, you need to perfectly space a neutral B, so that it pokes DDD's belly-button, and pops him like a balloon

 

[Shaya]

Get better at aiming your hits of forward air to tipper on the last frame of the hitbox.
Footstool jump close range shields.
Grab him a lot.
Relatively well spaced fsmash and ftilt is safe on non-power shield.

 

[Ereth]

Gonna put this over here, because I think it applies

Well here it goes



I think you should stick to Ike without a secondary because Ike is capable of overcoming all of his bad MU's and is an underrated and amazing character.

-D3
Marth vs D3 is much harder than Ike vs D3, although the MU chart says otherwise. As Ike your main goal is to space with fair and grab before he grabs you, bthrow -> dash attack is your bread and butter. Get him off the stage and make him use all his jumps with fair/bair/dair. When he is forced to recover with his upB you have limitless options for killing him, especially on battlefield. Wait for him to reach the apex (where his super armor ends) of his upB then punish with fsmash/bair/uair/upsmash, you name it. The entire MU is based on you getting him off the stage and stealing the ledge so he has to upB. Ike's punishes are godlike.

-MK
The MU for Ike is almost played exactly the same as for Marth, maintain stage control, abuse grab shenanigans, space well, and PUNISH EVERYTHING. Bair that tornado. Be sure to throw MK offstage and punish him on the ledge instead of edge hogging, fair beats most options, including nado. Ike can be just as strong as Marth against MK. Don't let the MU Chart tell you how it is, learn the MU for yourself before you judge how "bad" it is -Advice from C.J.

-Olimar
Olimar can be extremely tough for Marth as well, especially when getting back on stage. Ike has a bit of an easier time getting back stage control. Its hard for Ike to fight olimar because he's so short (hard to hit bair and impossible to hit FF Uair) and hard to approach, but Ike can kill Olimar around 100% with DI. Just remember you can dair through his upsmash (non purple I believe). Also Olimar does not have grab armor, so if youre in his face jabbing and he tries to grab he'll get hit. If they are in the air chances are they are going to whistle to avoid an uair so using aether to ledge grab is a good means to kill olimar. Aether's hitboxes last longer than the super armor from whistle so he'll be dragged down (with any luck without a jump). In essence jab cancels, your greater aerial game, and aether are your friends. Just be ready for the grab, its gonna happen.


If you want some qualifications, I'm a marth main and I play with Ryo and DewDaDash almost everyday. We can send you replays if you're interested.

 

[Ereth]

Speaking of D3, just what does Marth do in that matchup? I feel like I just get completely destroyed if I mess up a forwards air.

Basically the same thing i said for Ike, except less effective. Get him off stage, steal the ledge, force him to upB then punish. ALSO fthrow->fthrow->fthrow->dair(at 0%)->footstool->grab out of upB and pummel til release->keep doing it->keep doing it-> now kill his fat ass

 

[smashkng]

Why should Marth have trouble getting back onstage against Olimar? And why does Ike have an easier time getting back stage control? I thought it's Olimar's defense that should give trouble more than anything else. Too bad Marth's moves don't hit hard enough against DDD's recovery, but we can still rack up a lot of damage on DDD when we get him offstage. Is there any vids of a Marth using that grab release on DDD that is "kinda" an infinite? Could it break the MU by suddenly us having a way of killing him below 160%?

I like landing by just moving away from DDD because DDD's mobility is really slow which makes it hard for him to chase us when we decide to run away. BTW I've noticed that sometimes he can shield between DBs. Am I too slow with DB or should he actually be able to have time to shield between them?

 

[Shaya]

Grab and fsmashes go around ledges and ****. It's very hard for Marth above 100%.

 

[Ereth]

Why should Marth have trouble getting back onstage against Olimar? And why does Ike have an easier time getting back stage control? I thought it's Olimar's defense that should give trouble more than anything else. Too bad Marth's moves don't hit hard enough against DDD's recovery, but we can still rack up a lot of damage on DDD when we get him offstage. Is there any vids of a Marth using that grab release on DDD that is "kinda" an infinite? Could it break the MU by suddenly us having a way of killing him below 160%?

I like landing by just moving away from DDD because DDD's mobility is really slow which makes it hard for him to chase us when we decide to run away. BTW I've noticed that sometimes he can shield between DBs. Am I too slow with DB or should he actually be able to have time to shield between them?

Because ike's fair and aether outrange olimars grabs and smashes.

There is no video that I know of but I can make one if youre interested, C.J. showed this to me at a tournament in winter haven back in early march.

Edit: The fthrow(up to 3 fthrows total)->dair combo may result in a kill if you get a footstool->dair, but that is really risky.

 

[SKID!]

i was messing around with marth's glide toss and i'm curious as to if the forward glide toss is useful.

 

[Shaya]

Marth has a short forward toss and a long one.
They're as useful as you using them properly are.

Comfortability and experience is key here. Using all your item-related tech (being able to aerial with items / z drop/ buffering things etc) together can have great results.

 

[Ereth]

Forward glide toss is amazing for spacing. Try forward glide tossing a banana at diddy then fsmash him. Unless they catch it, then you just cry.