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[DMoogle]

Okay so my friend and I are starting to work on team combos... and my question is what is(is there even) the clear definitive sign that it is no longer a combo and your opponent can use a move...

There isn't really a clear definitive sign besides in training mode. I suppose the sound each character makes from jumping might suffice though (but I'm not 100% sure; I *think* that there isn't any sound lag or starting jump lag for mid-air jumps, but I'm not positive).

since there is no combo counter for more than 1 vs cpu in 64 I was wondering how do you know if its an official combo?

I'm not sure what you mean by "no combo counter for more than 1 vs cpu." You mean more than 1 player? Like I said, I *think* mid-air jumps (or anything that makes a noise and comes out on the first frame) are the most reliable way to tell if it's an actual combo, but you really need frame-by-frame analysis to be sure. I know that for stuff that the combo counter can't keep track of, Isai consults with ant-d to ensure that it's a true combo. Perhaps you can PM him (ant-d) and ask for his help as well.

Can you jump the instant you are out of hitstun?

Again, not sure, but I think so.

What moves can you use first i.e. b moves like pikachu/mario up b...

Check them out here: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p2VcZS6YDXFZBqNHNze3oUw&gid=2. Look for things that come out in 1 frame.

And is there a way to tell like oh the character flinched (or any visual clue) that means they are out of hitstun...
Oor should we just get a third person to input upb at like all times lol.... help... thanks

In actual gameplay (60fps), it's extremely difficult to tell. Frame-by-frame data is the way to go to see if a combo is a true combo.

Also, as you can see from that chart, down-Bs are the way to go.

 

[ballin4life]

I'm pretty sure that the combo meter in training mode is actually off by like 2 frames, so you can actually attack 2 frames before the combo "officially" ends.

 

[sirkibble2]

I'm not sure if this indicates anything but I was watching a Falcon combo vid on Isai's page and the combo meter reset every time the character came in contact with something. As long as the character floated without touching anything, the combo meter continued to rise. I couldn't confirm though if there was a time limit to it though also.

As far as hitstun notification, I usually try to determine it by when the character is no longer in a "frozen" animation or pose. For example, when Kirby is under hitstun, he has certain poses and animations that show he his hitstunned like his arms and feet are sprawled out or he's turned upside down and his legs are kicking back and forth. Usually once those animations are done, that's when I determine I can move again. It may not be the perfect indicator but I think it is one.

Watch here at :20 and 1:05- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J3i9gFKz48

At :39 is an example of when Kirby gets into hitstun but once the animation is over, he can technically attack (I think Kurtis was waiting). Again, this may not be 100% true as I've never actually paid attention to the actual signs while playing. It's kinda subconscious for me.

 

[ballin4life]

^^ Huh? It's well known that the combo meter resets if the character hits a wall

 

[sirkibble2]

^^ Huh? It's well known that the combo meter resets if the character hits a wall

Oh okay. It looked like some were unaware of that. Misread. My bad.

 

[dch111]

I'm not sure if this indicates anything but I was watching a Falcon combo vid on Isai's page and the combo meter reset every time the character came in contact with something. As long as the character floated without touching anything, the combo meter continued to rise. I couldn't confirm though if there was a time limit to it though also.

There is a "time limit". What kit was asking about was the amount of time after being hit before you can act again. It's a combo not because they're still in the air, but because they are continually kept helpless with each successive hit (that's why drills count as combos). The combo meter resetting directly from wall collisions is a programming mistake; so is resetting from grabs. When you come into contact with floor however, it is resetting correctly because you can techroll or do other things on the floor to escape. A true combo is inescapable most of the time (the victim still has a small amount of control during the combo in the form of SDI).


On the question itself, you usually just know from experience. But I think the animation does change if you're recovering from the air (tumbling to stable).

 

[Paixy]

Galaxy 64 site wasn't working...now it's not evening appearing on my searches...tried typing the url but it won't work....

It seems the site has gone down lol

 

[Battlecow]

yeah weird- but the site had nothing useful anyways.

Soooooooo... I tried to switch from keyboard to N64 controller last week. No. NononononooooooNOOOAAAAARGHHHH! *sob* *ahuhuhuhuh* *eeep* *sob*

it was not pretty. I was getting pwned by people who couldn't even tech. I've been at it for like 10 hours now, and not even a fraction of my old KB skill is returning; I just can't combo, I keep walking when I mean to dash, I can't double recover with pika (ow) my DI is teh suckzorz (not that it was much to begin with) and overall it just feels clumsy and wrong, like I'm playing brawl instead of 86, if you know what I mean. Am I trapped? how do I get controller skillz? I don't want to end up as someone who can only play online. Halp me plz.

 

[kit]

Thank you everyone for your replies. I'm just trying to rely on the animation now and if we get real intense and want to make a true combo we'll consult tas-specialists haha. Thanks again.

 

[rpotts]

A few questions me and my friends raised when playing smash.

Does shield stun increase as damage increases?

Why does samus' upb break shields? I theorized that her upb constantly does damage for a fixed period, and because there are less freeze frames on shield, there are more hits on shield than on player since less of the time is wasted in freeze frames, but I don't know.

may add more if I can remember other ?'s. Thanks

 

[DMoogle]

Does shield stun increase as damage increases?

Why does samus' upb break shields? I theorized that her upb constantly does damage for a fixed period, and because there are less freeze frames on shield, there are more hits on shield than on player since less of the time is wasted in freeze frames, but I don't know.

It breaks shields because it was programmed to be strong enough to. Not really sure what you're saying here. Freeze frames?

Not entirely sure if you know this, but the %damage an attack does has nothing to do with it's shield breaking strength. As the %damage goes up, the shield breaking strength tends to as well, but they're still entirely separate.

 

[ballin4life]

Hitstun definitely increases as damage increases. I'm not sure about shield stun though, if so it's pretty mild

A$ he's talking about the other character's percent, not the percent that the move does

 

[DMoogle]

Hitstun definitely increases as damage increases. I'm not sure about shield stun though, if so it's pretty mild

Er... no, neither of them do. I meant to say this in my other post (thus the split up quote), but I guess I forgot.

A$ he's talking about the other character's percent, not the percent that the move does

Ah. Either way, it doesn't have an effect on the shield damage.

 

[ballin4life]

Huh? Falcon uairs combo on falcon at 50% but not 0% for example.

 

[hamburglar]

I was always under the impression that hitstun increased as damage went up along with knockback (unless it's set) . I'm not sure about shieldstun.

 

[DMoogle]

Huh? Falcon uairs combo on falcon at 50% but not 0% for example.

Oh right, I was thinking about the stun where you're not moving and you can enter in DI. Does that have a name?

 

[earthadept]

isnt that like hitlag or something?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I still can't play ssb on LAN lines at school they work but what do I do?

 

[TANK64]

Oh right, I was thinking about the stun where you're not moving and you can enter in DI. Does that have a name?

idk, I just call it the DI window

isnt that like hitlag or something?

naw, hit lag is the lag from the end of a move.
For example: after a Link Fsmash he is in hitlag,
or if you miss a cancel on a Link Dair/Uair.

 

[Fireblaster]

naw, hit lag is the lag from the end of a move.
For example: after a Link Fsmash he is in hitlag,
or if you miss a cancel on a Link Dair/Uair.

Ugh don't spread false information. Hitlag is the lag you get from hitting an opponent, whether he's shielding or not.

 

[TANK64]

Ugh don't spread false information. Hitlag is the lag you get from hitting an opponent.

ummmm? don't think my information was false
lol, but whatever you say bro

 

[Fireblaster]

ummmm? don't think my information was false
lol, but whatever you say bro

I can't tell if you're being dumb or you just can't read.

 

[Skrlx]

Go to page 60 and quote his post, now pick out the errors in his post and explain why they are wrong instead of basically calling him stupid.

 

[DMoogle]

Ugh don't spread false information. Hitlag is the lag you get from hitting an opponent, whether he's shielding or not.

Do you know how that's calculated? I think I remember hearing that hitlag is lower in the Japanese version. Is it a constant x frames for every hit, regardless of the attack (excluding projectiles)? Or something else?

 

[the cap]

I have a question..My friend and I are very competitive smash players and I was wondering if its possible to have two people play through the same computer using two different xbox controllers (i also play through the tv)?

I know that there are additional slots for controller plug-ins, but i dont want to waste money on another pc controller if its not possible

Thanks

 

[ballin4life]

Do you know how that's calculated? I think I remember hearing that hitlag is lower in the Japanese version. Is it a constant x frames for every hit, regardless of the attack (excluding projectiles)? Or something else?

This is a guess but I think it's fairly constant in japanese version but american version has "freeze frames" every few frames. I think that's one of the reasons that it's a lot easier to DI in American version.

 

[Fireblaster]

Go to page 60 and quote his post, now pick out the errors in his post and explain why they are wrong instead of basically calling him stupid.

This isn't rocket science. He said hitlag was lag at the end of a move, which is obviously wrong and I said what hitlag actually was. He denied being wrong, so he's being stupid. Capiche?

Do you know how that's calculated? I think I remember hearing that hitlag is lower in the Japanese version. Is it a constant x frames for every hit, regardless of the attack (excluding projectiles)? Or something else?

I don't know if it's a universal formula that's applied to every move or of it's a preset value for each move. But I definitely know that moves have different hitlag and that stronger moves tend to have more hitstun and more hitlag (yoshi's dair vs fox's dair, DK's B vs. Jigglypuff's B)

 

[dch111]

Fireblaster is right. And I would also like to know the programming behind half these things.

I was somewhat confused by those terms in the past, since they aren't really defined together as much as mentioned variously, and wikismash I think has some errors, at least pertaining to 64. This is what I gather after having once compiled all the terms together in the past.

hitstun - the complete amount of time after being hit where you cannot do anything (except DI during the window for DI).

DI window - sometimes called "freeze frames" because Ant-d put it that way, is a subset of the hitstun time where you can input directions before flying away from the site of getting hit.

hitlag - lag the attacker gets from hitting someone with an attack. This is additional lag that is tacked on because you hit something (character, shield, item, etc.) instead of nothing (whiffed). This is often mixed up with time where you can DI, because I think the length of the DI window the victim gets is often correlated with the hitlag the opponent gets. For example there is less DI time in the japanese version as well as less hitlag, but I'm pretty sure one isn't causing the other directly

lag (in general) - delay after doing something. This can apply to the amount of time after an fsmash where the attacker has to finish the animation (the attack's ending lag), or if you miss a z-cancel (aerial landing lag). The amount of time the attacker takes to finish an animation can be further extended if there is hitlag from hitting something.

 

[ballin4life]

I think hitlag and DI window are the same but it's hitlag for the attacker and DI window for the other guy (doesn't apply to shielded attacks).

Anyway we should put these terms in the stickies

 

[dch111]

Yeah, it could be the same duration...I wasn't completely sure, though it could be tested.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

the hit lag is why its difficult to DJC to break a shield compared to DJC normally.

 

[Skrlx]

This isn't rocket science. He said hitlag was lag at the end of a move, which is obviously wrong and I said what hitlag actually was. He denied being wrong, so he's being stupid. Capiche?

Alright, but you can be a tad bit less rude

 

[Fireblaster]

Alright, but you can be a tad bit less rude

I responded the way I did because after having lots of experience posting on several forums, I have less than no patience for "no u" posts.

 

[MattNF]

Alright, but you can be a tad bit less rude

Fire's always mad at something.

 

[TANK64]

I can't tell if you're being dumb or you just can't read.

why?

Go to page 60 and quote his post, now pick out the errors in his post and explain why they are wrong instead of basically calling him stupid.

naw, I've noticed Fire just goes with the NO YOU'RE WRONG
I don't think he likes me

hitlag - lag the attacker gets from hitting someone with an attack. This is additional lag that is tacked on because you hit something (character, shield, item, etc.) instead of nothing (whiffed). This is often mixed up with time where you can DI, because I think the length of the DI window the victim gets is often correlated with the hitlag the opponent gets. For example there is less DI time in the japanese version as well as less hitlag, but I'm pretty sure one isn't causing the other directly

lag (in general) - delay after doing something. This can apply to the amount of time after an fsmash where the attacker has to finish the animation (the attack's ending lag), or if you miss a z-cancel (aerial landing lag). The amount of time the attacker takes to finish an animation can be further extended if there is hitlag from hitting something.

Nice breakdown
Yea, I figured that the lag from doing a move was just longer if you hit because the DI window
Also because some people just say hitlag for slower moves (if it hits or not).
My Bad

 

[ballin4life]

So i was playing a cpu falcon just now and I was at about 100% and I tried to parry a falcon punch. The punch hit me but the knockback was less than half of what it would usually be, almost as if I had double jumped or something (but I was on the ground the whole time). I only flew from the middle of hyrule to the left ledge. I think I still had my double jump too.

Anyone know what's up with that?

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

did you accidentally crouch cancel it?

 

[ballin4life]

That must have been it but wow I didn't think a crouch cancel would be able to take a falcon punch at 100%.

 

[DMoogle]

Crouch cancels can make a pretty gigantic difference. Yoshi's fairly heavy too.

 

[rpotts]

Crouch cancels can make a pretty gigantic difference. Yoshi's fairly heavy too.

Doesn't sound like a crouch cancel. He wouldn't just slide from a crouch canceled pawnch, he would get hit away. crouch canceling just reduces knockback by half, i thought. 100% falcon punch has tons of knockback