Are you happy that Dark Pit made it in?

[Reila]

Daaaang....all the hate on this guy. I thought a lot of people would be excited about him considering he was one of the most popular Kid Icarus characters.
God people....you ask too much from Sakurai. >.> Even when he goes out of his way to add an extra popular character- you complain.
Very. Lousy.

Complaining about everything is the favorite hobby of half of the Smash community. I am not surprised.

 

[toadster101]

NOOOOO

 

[ミスティック Speed]

Complaining about everything is the favorite hobby of half of the Smash community. I am not surprised.

Not surprised, of course. But its ok to be disappointed, still. Clones don't take up any space- they're added because there IS extra space. If they weren't in, no others would take their place. Its a very simple concept people.

 

[KoopaKR]

My issue with Dark Pit is not so much the whole "he's a clone character that shouldn't have existed." It's more of a case of missed oppritunities. Give him the DP Staff instead of a bow, Pandora Claws instead of the Electroshock Arm. He could have been sort of like a Wolf to a Fox: a clone who's meta would play very differently. Instead it's just another case of Sakurai favoring his own franchises. I'm probably gonna play him, but I'm still miffed at what could have been a very different type of clone character.

 

[LancerStaff]

But taking a sample out of a group of the SSB fanbase, while not representative of every player, should still give us a general idea of the common perception of a character. For a character to receive very, very minor support in a poll of more than 1000 people across the internet, then that should give an idea that Dark Pit still isn't as generally wanted the way higher-scoring characters are. Like I said, this isn't just a small sample from one part of Smashboards. It's not end-all, but it does have its credibility is my point.

Given, Dr. Mario is better than nothing. However, were it a choice between "Clone or Alternate Costume", you can bet that more people would want Dr. Mario as an alternate costume than a character. That's all I ever heard during the entirety of Smash 4's development. I can only think of two people who wanted Dr. Mario back as an actual character, one of them just so happening to be the head of the old Dark Pit support thread. If we held another survey, either before or after Dark Pit's confirmation, I can guarantee you that more people would prefer Dr. Mario and Dark Pit as costumes than as characters.

When I was saying that, I was under the complete understanding that you were arguing that Pikmin would potentially get 20 enemies in the Wii U version. Considering that you said that very line, I hope you can at least see where we reached that misunderstanding. Still, if the point is that the Kid Icarus enemies were added in great amounts because it's easy, wouldn't it have been easier and more time efficient to have no added them in the first place? That's where another factor must come in, being the active interest in literally giving Kid Icarus twice the amount of enemies as Zelda got, the latter of which being decades older and more easily recognized than the Kid Icarus enemies. Even Mario was dwarfed at a 3:4 ratio.

I'm not asking for a link for the proof of existence of a fanbase. I'd be a moron to say that doesn't exist. I'm asking for a link for tangible proof towards other claims of things like the scale of Kid Icarus's popularity, the reasoning behind other series not deserving more than they got, and word from Sakurai himself. When you otherwise make claims in style of your misspoken words from before, that leaves very little credibility to what you say. Plus, again, while there is the existence of a fanbase, do not forget about the existence of a hatebase as well, which 256 to 125 definitely shows there certainly is.

You acknowledge that people hate clones, yet were trying to defend that people "before they became bitter little turds" liked clones like Dr. Mario in Melee? That's not very consistent of you to flip-flop like that... Anyway, while Funky Kong would have been hated nonetheless for still being a clone, the fact of the matter is that he'd still be the lesser of two evils in that he gives more content to a series that could use it and offers the roster a character that isn't a narrative clone. I'd still be pissed about Funky as well, but I'd sooner have him than Dark Pit when the two series are scaled with one another and are shown that DK is a lot more due for something extra than Kid Icarus is at the late point of development.

There is no "perfect" clone for me. Even Louie from Pikmin, who I run the support thread for, would still be a greater disappointment to me than any unique newcomer if he was at all a clone. I sure wouldn't be as mad, but that doesn't speak exactly mean I'd speak highly of the character in the first place. Since the confirmation that characters can have different voices and names and still be alternate costumes, anyone that could be a clone of the same series should be an alternate costume in the first place. Now if Dark Pit was added as a unique newcomer, understand: I would still be upset that Kid Icarus would have had even more content than it should have, and still pissed off that DK and Metroid got ignored for it, but like Duck Hunt Dog and Wii Fit Trainer, I'd at least be able to appreciate Dark Pit more than any of cloned Louie, Dark Pit, or Funky for the contribution that unique Dark Pit adds to the roster and the gameplay. I'd be pissed off at the character in flavor only, as compared to being mad at both flavor and gameplay the way I am now with a cloned Dark Pit.

And honestly? That's more so your own issue than mine that you're in a bad mood because people don't agree to like Dark Pit with you. Some of the other supporters I've talked to today in the thread are at least able to remain empathetic enough to understand that while they got the character they wanted, other series were not as fortunate, and that a clone of a character in a series that already has so much content is bound to set off some unhappy campers. While they don't agree with me, they can respect my reasoning for not liking Dark Pit. You on the other hand are dead set on defending Dark Pit to the grave as some beloved figure that any criticism against whatsoever is nothing but sacrilege. Liking Dark Pit is not a problem with me, your blatant incapability of accepting others not doing the same, however, is.

Mention that there was some bias for Kid Icarus this time around and that Dark Pit shouldn't have necessarily higher priority to be made a full-fledged character than for another veteran to be restored or for Donkey Kong to have received anything new. That's all I need to know you're even trying to look at this with an open-mind and that you're not too far vested in a Kid Icarus Master Race to understand how others might feel about his inclusion. That much is what little I ask for.

I've seen quite a few polls like that, and they conflict more often then you would think. There's a multitude of reasons to not use them as fact. For one, you don't rate each character individually. Ridley himself is a highly requested character, but the number of people who'd actually play as him outside of Metroid fans is basically zero. Robin had less hardcore supporters, but appeals to more people. If the results were a rating of each character from one-to-ten then you'll probably come up with a top fifty not all that dissimilar from our current roster. Basically, the poll is the wrong kind of information: Getting into Smash is about the overall opinion of the character, not who gets the most requests. Remember the "Just because you try hard" bit from Sakurai? The fans can try as hard as they want, but they ultimately can't change the appeal of the character.

Let things settle down and the supporters learn of his inclusion, and the results will be the exact opposite of what you think they would be. Same thing happened to Lucina, same thing for the other clones.

They wanted X amount of enemies by X date, likely. So they ported them over. Call me ungrateful, but I find their inclusion pretty meaningless. Really, nobody is going to be excited to hear that Patrat is an enemy in SR. They're just enemies that fit the mode.

Anime-ish characters with swords beat out reptiles in raw popularity. Like I said, we need a proper 1-10 poll for potential characters to really judge.

I acknowledge that the opinion is fairly split on clones. People will blindly hate on them for completely moronic reasons, like how they supposedly got in over their character, but people genuinely come to like them over time. Just watch, if DP turns out to be an "interesting" character like Wolf, probably from combos or other techniques instead of moves, his hate will disappear overnight.

I've said this many times already: DP offers much more then then what he appears to at first glance. It's very, very clear playing him like Pit isn't a good idea. Almost every attack has been tweaked. Yes, they're similar, but nowhere as close as Melee Mario to Melee Dr. Mario, which only had a difference in properties.

There's a difference between liking the character and understanding his inclusion. Really, alot of it is that I can't stand seeing others be wrong, and that I see hate as a completely useless emotion. Hate helps nobody, not even yourself. Hate is hate. Kill it with fire, I say.

With what Sakurai said about cuts, he would of if he could. The bulk of the work in bringing back an old character comes from balancing them, even if you port everything over. With clones you can just +attack -speed and be mostly done with it.

DK not getting anything new isn't necessarily his fault. Sakurai mostly works with characters, balancing and outright getting in, and general modes and features. He definitely has imput on stages and such, but he has enough on his plate already. It's likely just ideas on Kirby, KI, and whatever strikes his fancy.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

I've seen quite a few polls like that, and they conflict more often then you would think. There's a multitude of reasons to not use them as fact. For one, you don't rate each character individually. Ridley himself is a highly requested character, but the number of people who'd actually play as him outside of Metroid fans is basically zero. Robin had less hardcore supporters, but appeals to more people. If the results were a rating of each character from one-to-ten then you'll probably come up with a top fifty not all that dissimilar from our current roster. Basically, the poll is the wrong kind of information: Getting into Smash is about the overall opinion of the character, not who gets the most requests. Remember the "Just because you try hard" bit from Sakurai? The fans can try as hard as they want, but they ultimately can't change the appeal of the character.

Whoa, see right there when you say things like "the number of people who'd actually play as him outside of Metroid fans is basically zero"? That is anything but objective. If people who would actually play as a robot goes beyond a thousand, you can't honestly tell me a giant space dragon that even non-Metroid fans are familiar with from playing Brawl and Melee would garner zero attention. Especially without a source to dictate that nobody outside of the Metroid fandom would want to play as Ridley, that statement can outright **** off. Now it's obvious to me you're biased and that you won't respond to reason in the first place. I'm done with this if you are going to let this go nowhere. I've already won in the department of reason if disregarding a mass collection of information and saying Ridley is an unappealing character is suddenly a centerpiece to your counter-argument.

You keep throwing out your "gut-feeling" statements, budd. It won't make you any less naive in doing so.

 

[TempahRelapse]

Personally I would of been happier if Dark Samus was in.

 

[kirby_queen]

I don't mind him, but I think a few of you forgot that the Kid Icarus series is Sakurai's baby, just like the Kirby series (this was touched on earlier).

For Kirby reps, we have the hero (Kirby), royalty (King Dedede), and a darker hero-like character (Meta Knight). For Kid Icarus, we have the hero (Pit), royalty (Palutena), and a darker hero-like character (Dark Pit). I think Sakurai meant that as the parallel and wanted to force an extra rep from Kid Icarus. While Dark Pit is a villain, it's obvious as I look through this thread that his inclusion didn't satisfy SSB4 fans' thirst for more villains.

That said, questions like "What was Sakurai thinking?" have already been answered. You have to take a look at who's behind the scenes.

ew are people comparing Metaknight and Dark Pit in here?

Metaknight is a distinct character who isn't JUST a palette swap of the same model. He may be a puff but he's got a distinct design. He's got an original moveset as well. He's appeared in more than just one or two games as well. Kirby has 22 titles under it's franchise belt with MK showing up in a good portion of them. Dark PIt is in what.. one game?

Metaknight isn't Kirby's Dark Pit. Dark Pit is more like Kirby's Shadow Kirby form from Amazing Mirror.

 

[Speculator]

The idea that Dark Pit is somehow a 'bonus' or 'free' character that expended next to no development time is demented. He's appeared in a CG trailer, has his own voice acting, his own balancing requirements and even his own victory theme. Even as a clone he is directly sapping development time that could have been spent on a clone not from a series that's being massively overrepresented.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Lucas and Wolf would've been direct pure clones of their counter-parts if they were added last minute just so you guys know, because all of the clones are basically stat-changing characters, they probably didn't have time to do the rest of the Luigified clones.

 

[LancerStaff]

Whoa, see right there when you say things like "the number of people who'd actually play as him outside of Metroid fans is basically zero"? That is anything but objective. If people who would actually play as a robot goes beyond a thousand, you can't honestly tell me a giant space dragon that even non-Metroid fans are familiar with from playing Brawl and Melee would garner zero attention. Especially without a source to dictate that nobody outside of the Metroid fandom would want to play as Ridley, that statement can outright **** off. Now it's obvious to me you're biased and that you won't respond to reason in the first place. I'm done with this if you are going to let this go nowhere. I've already won in the department of reason if disregarding a mass collection of information and saying Ridley is an unappealing character is suddenly a centerpiece to your counter-argument.

You keep throwing out your "gut-feeling" statements, budd. It won't make you any less naive in doing so.

ROB had an important role in SSE's story, and a genuinely unique moveset. Ridley has being big. Really now, have you ever met anybody remotely interested in Ridley that wasn't a Metroid fan? Look at the Ridley debates, there's absolutely nobody neutral. What really speaks volumes is that he isn't playable now, and that Sakurai laughed at his inclusion. For now, I present the game as evidence.

Look, nobody has ever made a poll like this. It's something I've been thinking about for quite a while now. I wouldn't ever be able make a 100 character poll with 1-10 ratings for every character, but a 1-10 for just Ridley would be easy. I'd make the poll right now if it wouldn't get taken down in a moment, because right now basically everybody is buthurt over the game. A few months past the Wii U version's release would be the perfect time. This would be the ultimate proof, confirming what Sakurai thinks as true. But not now.

And remember, I'm using the poll to prove that Ridley's popularity drops off as soon as you leave the Metroid fandom, not to prove how many 10s he would get. Including more and more people in the poll wouldn't really alter the result I'm looking for.

The idea that Dark Pit is somehow a 'bonus' or 'free' character that expended next to no development time is demented. He's appeared in a CG trailer, has his own voice acting, his own balancing requirements and even his own victory theme. Even as a clone he is directly sapping development time that could have been spent on a clone not from a series that's being massively overrepresented.

He was likely intended as a costume with his own VAing, the same person mind you, and those other thing wouldn't take as much time. Balancing him is fairly easy, to the point where a +attack -speed would be enough for the most part. Victory theme? Whoopidy-dee, they edited one of the many versions of his theme from KIU. Do you really think work editing sound took away from balancing other characters?

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

ROB had an important role in SSE's story, and a genuinely unique moveset. Ridley has being big. Really now, have you ever met anybody remotely interested in Ridley that wasn't a Metroid fan? Look at the Ridley debates, there's absolutely nobody neutral. What really speaks volumes is that he isn't playable now, and that Sakurai laughed at his inclusion. For now, I present the game as evidence.

Look, nobody has ever made a poll like this. It's something I've been thinking about for quite a while now. I wouldn't ever be able make a 100 character poll with 1-10 ratings for every character, but a 1-10 for just Ridley would be easy. I'd make the poll right now if it wouldn't get taken down in a moment, because right now basically everybody is buthurt over the game. A few months past the Wii U version's release would be the perfect time. This would be the ultimate proof, confirming what Sakurai thinks as true. But not now.

And remember, I'm using the poll to prove that Ridley's popularity drops off as soon as you leave the Metroid fandom, not to prove how many 10s he would get. Including more and more people in the poll wouldn't really alter the result I'm looking for.

Nobody neutral. Sure. If you say so. Especially nobody big in the Smash speculation scene, right? That's an established fact. You said it so it must be true.

The rest of that is:
"I can't prove it, but it's true! Everyone's just too butthurt to agree if I made a poll now! NOBODY likes Ridley outside of his fandom. Lord Sakurai and I are on the save wavelength. I know he hates Ridley like I do. Clearly Dark Pit was the better choice, since he was in the game. That's right, Ridley having no value is the key to proving that people like Dark Pit! Tunnel vision, don't fail me now!"

Which, again, isn't even worth my time anymore when your main argument now is resorting to having to say that nobody actually likes one of the most requested newcomers just so that you can help to defend Dark Pit. Again, that's being a miserable representation of the Dark Pit supporters if this is what you have to throw out now. Talk to me when you actually have something credible for once. You're spamming up the thread otherwise with flamebait otherwise.

 

[Speculator]

He was likely intended as a costume with his own VAing, the same person mind you, and those other thing wouldn't take as much time. Balancing him is fairly easy, to the point where a +attack -speed would be enough for the most part. Victory theme? Whoopidy-dee, they edited one of the many versions of his theme from KIU. Do you really think work editing sound took away from balancing other characters?

You're missing the point. When people say "Dark Pit took basically no time to add, what would you have wanted - nothing?" they're suggesting the two options here are Dark Pit or a blank space on the roster. That's not the case. The time spent making a very slightly altered Pit clone could have been spent making a clone people might have enjoyed. Dark Pit wasn't an especially popular choice, he doesn't offer anything interesting in terms of fighting abilities and, most importantly, he's a very small character from an already very small series.

Kid Icarus was chosen to have a clone for no other reason than Sakurai directed Uprising. That's it. I daresay people would have taken Dark Samus as a very slightly altered Samus or Dixie as a very slightly altered Diddy a hundred times before they got around to wanting Dark Pit. While those examples wouldn't have been very good representations of those characters, the series themselves are far more worth of a slightly-altered-clone slot than Kid Icarus. It beggars belief how far out of proprtion Kid Icarus is as a series now.

Ninten as a slightly altered Ness might have even almost made up for the beating Mother representation took this time around. The number of playable Mother characters has halved and the number of playable Kid Icarus characters has tripled. Think about that. That's the injustice and that's why people resent Dark Pit.

 

[DarkStar64]

I originally hated the idea of Dark Pit being a playable character but then I heard this....

Long story short I am now planning on learning Dark Pit....
(Yes, just for his awesome theme song lol)

 

[LancerStaff]

Nobody neutral. Sure. If you say so. Especially nobody big in the Smash speculation scene, right? That's an established fact. You said it so it must be true.

The rest of that is:
"I can't prove it, but it's true! Everyone's just too butthurt to agree if I made a poll now! NOBODY likes Ridley outside of his fandom. Lord Sakurai and I are on the save wavelength. I know he hates Ridley like I do. Clearly Dark Pit was the better choice, since he was in the game. That's right, Ridley having no value is the key to proving that people like Dark Pit! Tunnel vision, don't fail me now!"

Which, again, isn't even worth my time anymore when your main argument now is resorting to having to say that nobody actually likes one of the most requested newcomers just so that you can help to defend Dark Pit. Again, that's being a miserable representation of the Dark Pit supporters if this is what you have to throw out now. Talk to me when you actually have something credible for once. You're spamming up the thread otherwise with flamebait otherwise.

Do you really have to nitpick everything I say? There's a thing called an "exaggeration."

Lol, the Ridley topic has been closed like five times now. Really, ask a mod if making such a poll would be a good idea right now. Doubtful any of them want to see it happen. 'Sides, might as well let the flood of new members pass.

I don't hate Ridley. I don't see what's so special about him, either. Rather have somebody really unique like DH or the ICs return. Heck, I'd take the ICs over DP and the other two, but it wasn't in the cards. Sakurai has said a thousand times over that it's about picking characters that people want to play as, not repping franchises. Sakurai doesn't just pick on a whim, so I'm sure there's data to support this somewhere. I can't find a true source, so I'll make my own. It's that easy.

You're missing the point. When people say "Dark Pit took basically no time to add, what would you have wanted - nothing?" they're suggesting the two options here are Dark Pit or a blank space on the roster. That's not the case. The time spent making a very slightly altered Pit clone could have been spent making a clone people might have enjoyed. Dark Pit wasn't an especially popular choice, he doesn't offer anything interesting in terms of fighting abilities and, most importantly, he's a very small character from an already very small series.

Kid Icarus was chosen to have a clone for no other reason than Sakurai directed Uprising. That's it. I daresay people would have taken Dark Samus as a very slightly altered Samus or Dixie as a very slightly altered Diddy a hundred times before they got around to wanting Dark Pit. While those examples wouldn't have been very good representations of those characters, the series themselves are far more worth of a slightly-altered-clone slot than Kid Icarus. It beggars belief how far out of proprtion Kid Icarus is as a series now.

Ninten as a slightly altered Ness might have even almost made up for the beating Mother representation took this time around. The number of playable Mother characters has halved and the number of playable Kid Icarus characters has tripled. Think about that. That's the injustice and that's why people resent Dark Pit.

Three options. Alph, DP, nada. DP edged out Alph by being an anime-ish character with swords. It's pretty darned clear that it was only costumes that were going to be cloned. And yes, people enjoy DP. This forum exists for a reason. You're not seeing his popularity yet because most fans aren't aware he's even playable.

Like I said, DP was one of four costumes viable for cloning. Three made it. I'll admit Alph is a legitimate choice, but there's more then a few reasons why he might of not made it. I'll share if you really want to know.

Again, Ninten wasn't a costume. DP was. His model and voice were already complete. Saying that he's especially unique compared to the other clones is rubbish. Lucina had to have every hitbox readjusted because of her lack of a tipper mechanic. Definitely not as simple as changing numbers, either. While Doc had his Dair transplanted to his Dspecial and a new Dair in it's place.

 

[Irarius]

i want to ask is there a dlc character diskussion room or something? the chances for some characters are not bad at all

 

[Wintropy]

The idea that Dark Pit is somehow a 'bonus' or 'free' character that expended next to no development time is demented. He's appeared in a CG trailer, has his own voice acting, his own balancing requirements and even his own victory theme. Even as a clone he is directly sapping development time that could have been spent on a clone not from a series that's being massively overrepresented.

Let's not go flinging hyperbolic statements around, now. We're perfectly capable of having a rational and polite discussion without throwing out phrases like "demented" and "sapping development time". I get that you don't like him, but come on. Be respectful to the fans.

Now, that being said, what difference does it make that he appeared in the trailer and he has his own voice acting? We don't even know if he was going to be playable at the time the trailer was animated or if Sakurai just threw him in there as a placeholder for whatever role he would have in the game. He was obviously going to be in the game overall, and if he was a playable character at the time of the trailer's reveal, I think Sakurai would have announced him there and then. Possibly he just realised he had some dev time left to create a new character, saw Dark Pit and realised there's already a precedent there. People were, for better or for worse, already expecting him to appear, so it's not like it should come as an almighty shock that ol' Pittoo is in the final roster. And it wasn't even his own trailer - he just made a cute little cameo at the end that some people rather appreciated for what it is.

Also Pit and ol' Pittoo share the same voice actor, so it's not like it's a huge deal to ask him to record some new lines and throw in some grunts and growls for good measure.

I don't really get the argument that "well he could have created another clone instead". I'm sorry, but I don't think it's as easy as all that. You're very welcome to rebut my sentiments if you so choose, but I can't quantifiably conceive of an alternate clone that would appear in his stead. Out of the potential candidates, there are mitigating circumstances there: Dark Samus was already programmed as an Assist Trophy, so to include her would be to undo the time and effort they'd already put in; Alph is arguably too complex and would be tricky to implement on a tight budget and with the clock running out; including someone like Dixie Kong or Funky Kong, as I say, may be taken (arguably unjustly) as a slap in the face to the fans who wanted "real" characters and could very, very easily lead to a future "Captain Falcondorf" situation in that respect; Mewtwo could theoretically take his place, but that would mean cloning him directly from Lucario, and we all know the kind of backlash that that would result in. I wholeheartedly think Sakurai, under pressure and hurrying to finish the game in time, just said, "Right, screw it, we'll throw this guy in. I know how he works, we've already got his model and his moves in place, and maybe the fans will like it."

I'm really, really sorry to come across as such an arrogant snob here, but I think we're all being incredibly hard on Sakurai. He's gone out of his way to create this beautiful game and has developed health issues as a result; he doesn't have to do any of that, but he does, and we're just going to throw his generosity back in his face because it's not what we wanted? Why reject free gifts for the sake of making our points? I get that we're upset and that we want to vindicate our arguments by responding as such, and that's fine. It's a natural human response to counter anger and wrath with, well, anger and wrath. Vent your feeling all you want, but please, for your own sake as well as ours, just try to look at things from other perspectives, too. Criticising Sakurai and using harsh turns of phrase against his choices is fair game, but I'd urge people that are frustrated by the whole issues therein to just step away and focus on the positive side of things.

At the end of the day, we don't really know what Sakurai does, because we don't work in his office and we don't do what the dev team does. He's the director of the series and that comes with certain responsibilities - he has to make the tough calls, and we have to live with them. They may not be perfect, or maybe not even good, but they're the choices that they are. Let's just all be cool and have a good time with the game that we have.

Of course, I'm not going to convince people whom are already firm in their beliefs, nor do I intend to. And that's fine. Just like everybody else, I want to vent my own feelings and frustrations and just look instead at the good things in the game. Each to their own, my friend, each to their own.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Trailers are outsourced, anyway.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Lucas and Wolf would've been direct pure clones of their counter-parts if they were added last minute just so you guys know, because all of the clones are basically stat-changing characters, they probably didn't have time to do the rest of the Luigified clones.

Lucas still could have been very close to his Brawl version since Ness has his specials as custom specials now. Not sure about Wolf.

Also, if clones take no development time and just make roster bigger, then why not add 100 clones? Mega Man? Samus clone. Palutena? Zelda clone. Pac Man? Kirby clone. Ridley? Somehow Charizard clone. Ghirahim? Marth clone. K.Rool? DDD clone. Robin? Marth clone. It would take no development time and roster would be BIG. What the point of clones if they bring nothing new except for different attributes? Especially when there is custom specials.
Dark Pit is perfect representation of Sakurai bias. Kirby franchise, franchise Sakurai started, gets LESS attention than franchise he only recently revived. And it deserved a lot more. And Metroid and DK got even less love (AT are the only new things that Metroid got because Pyrosphere REPLACED stage and has, according to direct footage, a lazily done version of Ridley boss that is nothing new since 1985-1986 while DK got only 2 or a bit more enemies). Also, Mario got less stuff than KI in this game. NEW stuff, not just anything.
Also, wasn't Brawl delayed just to add something? Why not delay this game a bit to add something that actually counts then?

 

[LancerStaff]

Lucas still could have been very close to his Brawl version since Ness has his specials as custom specials now. Not sure about Wolf.

Also, if clones take no development time and just make roster bigger, then why not add 100 clones? Mega Man? Samus clone. Palutena? Zelda clone. Pac Man? Kirby clone. Ridley? Somehow Charizard clone. Ghirahim? Marth clone. K.Rool? DDD clone. Robin? Marth clone. It would take no development time and roster would be BIG. What the point of clones if they bring nothing new except for different attributes? Especially when there is custom specials.
Dark Pit is perfect representation of Sakurai bias. Kirby franchise, franchise Sakurai started, gets LESS attention than franchise he only recently revived. And it deserved a lot more. And Metroid and DK got even less love (AT are the only new things that Metroid got because Pyrosphere REPLACED stage and has, according to direct footage, a lazily done version of Ridley boss that is nothing new since 1985-1986 while DK got only 2 or a bit more enemies). Also, Mario got less stuff than KI in this game. NEW stuff, not just anything.
Also, wasn't Brawl delayed just to add something? Why not delay this game a bit to add something that actually counts then?

We really don't know what the logic behind cutting Lucas was, so I can't say for sure.

People obviously don't want a roster of clones. Quality over quantity. The clones are brought in because it's either them or nothing.

Dark Pit only got in over Alph. Once you get past the stuff that was just ported over, it doesn't leave alot.

KIU borrowed a ton of SSB mechanics. Teching, the controls, the checklist... People didn't call Sakurai biased for bringing those to KIU. But as soon as you take it the other way everybody goes nuts. The fighter's scale, the random equipment, the powers in SR... All apparently KIU bias. Most of the items and enemies in KIU came right out of his skull, and nobody would be complaining if they were generics. Just because it's a Monoeye instead of a Feyeish doesn't mean you have to flip your lid.

Phyrosphere is a legitimate new stage, replaced or not. Can I start complaining that Skyworld didn't return? Ridley? There was tons of disclaimers that the footage wasn't final. Probably why he wasn't properly revealed.

Brawl was likely delayed because of SSE being unfinished. Sakurai has said already that he's not going to delay a game just to add minor things like characters and stages.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Lucas still could have been very close to his Brawl version since Ness has his specials as custom specials now. Not sure about Wolf.

Also, if clones take no development time and just make roster bigger, then why not add 100 clones? Mega Man? Samus clone. Palutena? Zelda clone. Pac Man? Kirby clone. Ridley? Somehow Charizard clone. Ghirahim? Marth clone. K.Rool? DDD clone. Robin? Marth clone. It would take no development time and roster would be BIG. What the point of clones if they bring nothing new except for different attributes? Especially when there is custom specials.
Dark Pit is perfect representation of Sakurai bias. Kirby franchise, franchise Sakurai started, gets LESS attention than franchise he only recently revived. And it deserved a lot more. And Metroid and DK got even less love (AT are the only new things that Metroid got because Pyrosphere REPLACED stage and has, according to direct footage, a lazily done version of Ridley boss that is nothing new since 1985-1986 while DK got only 2 or a bit more enemies). Also, Mario got less stuff than KI in this game. NEW stuff, not just anything.
Also, wasn't Brawl delayed just to add something? Why not delay this game a bit to add something that actually counts then?

Because Doc, Lucina and Dark Pit have every reasons to be clones. Doc is Mario, and Lucina and Dark Pit play just like Marth and Pit respectively in the game they're in. They CAN be unique, particularly Dark Pit, but they can just as easily be clones, and that was the only way they could get in.

Mega Man being a clone of Samus makes no sense whatsoever, and would be worse than Ganondorf being a Captain Falcon clone. All the examples you listed are nonsense. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Do you think Sakurai is biased for the Mario series?

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Do you really have to nitpick everything I say? There's a thing called an "exaggeration."

Lol, the Ridley topic has been closed like five times now. Really, ask a mod if making such a poll would be a good idea right now. Doubtful any of them want to see it happen. 'Sides, might as well let the flood of new members pass.

I don't hate Ridley. I don't see what's so special about him, either. Rather have somebody really unique like DH or the ICs return. Heck, I'd take the ICs over DP and the other two, but it wasn't in the cards. Sakurai has said a thousand times over that it's about picking characters that people want to play as, not repping franchises. Sakurai doesn't just pick on a whim, so I'm sure there's data to support this somewhere. I can't find a true source, so I'll make my own. It's that easy.

When you have to passive aggressively attack anything but the Dark Pit fandom just to make a point, what else would you expect? For me to just smile and nod like you're not being insufferable to argue with?

That follow up about the Ridley thread having been closed five times now being an immediate example of that. It was constantly being closed due to rowdiness and spam that happened in the thread. The actual game and Ridley himself had nothing to do with that until the final closure, same way every other character thread was closed when they were confirmed not to be characters in the roster. Seriously, what the **** does the Ridley thread have to do with any of this? Your arguments are literally coming down to saying how every series not named Kid Icarus isn't worth anything beyond what it got and that the quality of a character (that clearly a lot of people find to be of high quality if they're being requested in the first place, smart one) is some completely defined thing that you don't need a single ounce of effort to back up. Your attitude is horrid and your bias is tangible if you're immediately saying Dark Pit as a clone was miles more warranted than Ridley, and frankly I'm damn tired of dealing with it.

Am I heralding Ridley as some untouchable deity? No. Am I saying Dark Pit is a complete and utter waste? No. Am I saying either of them should be in the game before the Ice Climbers return? **** no. I am saying that while Kid Icarus got all of its treatment in Smash Bros., other series should have had more love as well. Donkey Kong and Metroid deserve plenty more than what they got. Ridley and K. Rool are highly requested characters in the Smash community. Star Fox and EarthBound shouldn't have had Wolf and Lucas as cut characters. Why any of this isn't comprehensible to you is a secret I'll have to take to my grave.

If you want to make a poll, go ahead. Tell someone to let me know if anyone actually participates in your poll you'll likely post in Kid Icarus-heavy sections of the internet. I won't be one to directly see it because I'd have already blocked you. Maybe that's just what I need to remove bias and see the poll's results as empirical evidence: Knowing you have nothing to do with it. I'm doing us both a favor in that sense. You're welcome.

Enjoy Dark Pit all you want, but stop ****ting all over other series to do it. You don't have to downplay the characters that didn't make it in to paint Dark Pit in a positive light. If you do have to do that just to get a point across, however, that should speak plenty of how you are not the type of person we need discussing anything cognitive on these boards.

Return to your peace and bliss, Dark Pitians. CancerStaff and I will never need to quarrel ever again.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

We really don't know what the logic behind cutting Lucas was, so I can't say for sure.

People obviously don't want a roster of clones. Quality over quantity. The clones are brought in because it's either them or nothing.

Dark Pit only got in over Alph. Once you get past the stuff that was just ported over, it doesn't leave alot.

KIU borrowed a ton of SSB mechanics. Teching, the controls, the checklist... People didn't call Sakurai biased for bringing those to KIU. But as soon as you take it the other way everybody goes nuts. The fighter's scale, the random equipment, the powers in SR... All apparently KIU bias. Most of the items and enemies in KIU came right out of his skull, and nobody would be complaining if they were generics. Just because it's a Monoeye instead of a Feyeish doesn't mean you have to flip your lid.

Phyrosphere is a legitimate new stage, replaced or not. Can I start complaining that Skyworld didn't return? Ridley? There was tons of disclaimers that the footage wasn't final. Probably why he wasn't properly revealed.

Brawl was likely delayed because of SSE being unfinished. Sakurai has said already that he's not going to delay a game just to add minor things like characters and stages.

That is why its better to add 1 new character over 6 clones, who take development time since models have to be created. That is what i think. Also, they take more space on the disc/rom/whatever is used for those consoles than just alts.

What was ported? And it still requires to be coded even if it was ported (and you have no proof it was) and new animations too if there is not enough.

It doesn't matters because it still counts as KI stuff, not SSB stuff. Its origin is KI Uprising, even if it was inspired by SSB. By same logic, DK is Mario or even nature itself's rep. He is a gorilla after all.

Characters and stages? Minor? Are you sure he said that? How can main part of the game be minor?

Because Doc, Lucina and Dark Pit have every reasons to be clones. Doc is Mario, and Lucina and Dark Pit play just like Marth and Pit respectively in the game they're in. They CAN be unique, particularly Dark Pit, but they can just as easily be clones, and that was the only way they could get in.

Mega Man being a clone of Samus makes no sense whatsoever, and would be worse than Ganondorf being a Captain Falcon clone. All the examples you listed are nonsense. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Do you think Sakurai is biased for the Mario series?

Why not leave them as alts? It takes even less time while still adding character to the roster.

Yes, they are, but they take no development time, so, it is better than having unique characters. They are just extra, so, they don't take someone's place anyhow. Either them or nothing. What would YOU choose?
Also, i personally know that Ridley being a Charizard clone is nonsense because they look too different, unlike Ganondorf, Dr.Mario, Dark Pit, Lucina, etc. Same goes to Mega Man and few other examples.
Mario series deserve that since it is most popular (or at least very close to that) Nintendo franchise and is one of the most successful (i think Pokemon was more successful). So, it won't be bias. If, for example, Metroid would get 5 new characters, then it would be because there is only 3 characters that are actually worth adding in this franchise (Samus, Dark Samus and Ridley, no ZSS).

 

[NekuShikazu]

Clones in their own games have a important role (aside from Doctor Mario). I'm happy he's in and even though I don't really know who he really is. He seem's like a character I'd like to know about.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Yes, they are, but they take no development time, so, it is better than having unique characters. They are just extra, so, they don't take someone's place anyhow. Either them or nothing. What would YOU choose?

Well if I was designing the game I'd try to carefully design as many different movesets as I could, and if the development doesn't end up as well as I hope due to some unfortunate technical difficulties and time constraints, I'll add suitable clones to pad the rosters. You know, fillers. And I'm just saying this off the top of my head.

So...I'd do what Sakurai and every other game developer would do.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Clones in their own games have a important role (aside from Doctor Mario). I'm happy he's in and even though I don't really know who he really is. He seem's like a character I'd like to know about.

Doctor Mario is main character of his games. So, he is more important than those 2 clones.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Well if I was designing the game I'd try to carefully design as many different movesets as I could, and if the development doesn't end up as well as I hope due to some unfortunate technical difficulties and time constraints, I'll add suitable clones to pad the rosters. You know, fillers. And I'm just saying this off the top of my head.

So...I'd do what Sakurai and every other game developer would do.

Being an aspiring game developer myself, I disagree. You know the phrase "less is more"? This is one of those cases. I'd rather have players look at each and every character as a distinct entity. If I'm adding someone who is literally described as "another ____ but slower and hits harder", that sounds like a greater cop-out than it would have been to have simply worked on other content in the game instead.

Again, though, that's simply what I would do. I'm just of the philosophy of character quality over quantity, preferably both but greater focus on the former.

 

[HugoBoss]

If it wasn't for the absence of the Cut Trio, and the unbalanced distribution of alternate costumes(and which would become clones) , then I would be happier.

 

[LancerStaff]

When you have to passive aggressively attack anything but the Dark Pit fandom just to make a point, what else would you expect? For me to just smile and nod like you're not being insufferable to argue with?

That follow up about the Ridley thread having been closed five times now being an immediate example of that. It was constantly being closed due to rowdiness and spam that happened in the thread. The actual game and Ridley himself had nothing to do with that until the final closure, same way every other character thread was closed when they were confirmed not to be characters in the roster. Seriously, what the **** does the Ridley thread have to do with any of this? Your arguments are literally coming down to saying how every series not named Kid Icarus isn't worth anything beyond what it got and that the quality of a character (that clearly a lot of people find to be of high quality if they're being requested in the first place, smart one) is some completely defined thing that you don't need a single ounce of effort to back up. Your attitude is horrid and your bias is tangible if you're immediately saying Dark Pit as a clone was miles more warranted than Ridley, and frankly I'm damn tired of dealing with it.

Am I heralding Ridley as some untouchable deity? No. Am I saying Dark Pit is a complete and utter waste? No. Am I saying either of them should be in the game before the Ice Climbers return? **** no. I am saying that while Kid Icarus got all of its treatment in Smash Bros., other series should have had more love as well. Donkey Kong and Metroid deserve plenty more than what they got. Ridley and K. Rool are highly requested characters in the Smash community. Star Fox and EarthBound shouldn't have had Wolf and Lucas as cut characters. Why any of this isn't comprehensible to you is a secret I'll have to take to my grave.

If you want to make a poll, go ahead. Tell someone to let me know if anyone actually participates in your poll you'll likely post in Kid Icarus-heavy sections of the internet. I won't be one to directly see it because I'd have already blocked you. Maybe that's just what I need to remove bias and see the poll's results as empirical evidence: Knowing you have nothing to do with it. I'm doing us both a favor in that sense. You're welcome.

Enjoy Dark Pit all you want, but stop ****ting all over other series to do it. You don't have to downplay the characters that didn't make it in to paint Dark Pit in a positive light. If you do have to do that just to get a point across, however, that should speak plenty of how you are not the type of person we need discussing anything cognitive on these boards.

Return to your peace and bliss, Dark Pitians. CancerStaff and I will never need to quarrel ever again.

You're blocking me? Last three guys on here simply pretended to block me and replied what to what I said regardless. Hoping that won't be the case again, but if not, I'll have to post this anyway.

Isn't it just well-known that anything and everything related to Ridley causes an uproar? The Ridley topic was closed multiple times, and his topic was very clearly the first to go.

Just saying that making the Ridley Topic 2.0: Poll Proving Why He Wasn't Playable Edition would be a terrible idea right now. You ask why DP got in over Ridley, I give a probable explanation and the reason why I cannot back it up yet and now you're accusing me of hating on the Ridley fanbase. What the heck?

What you're not understanding is that it isn't about character requests, and it never was. Lucas and Wolf had legitimate reasons to be cut. Three, mostly unique, characters for a practically dormant franchise is just too much. Yes, there's an upcoming sequel, but there's no way Sakurai would of known about it. Lucas on the other hand basically represents what's basically the Duke Nukem Forever of Mother: Took an incredibly long time to make, had a completely different tone from the rest of the series, and a very hit-or-miss gameplay mechanic. Not only that, but Ness took his "shooting out hexagonal energy for tilts" bit.

I fully intended on posting it on Smashboards, and since I brought up the Ridley topic and the mods, it was fairly obvious I'd post it here. Even then, joke's on you because it shouldn't matter where I post it, it's about determining how popular Ridley is past Ridley fans. Heck, a Metroid fansite would work too, considering I know Ridley's playable status is a controversial subject between Metroid fans.

I've not insulted you once. I'm trying to have a civil conversation with you, but you're just not listening and flying off the handle whenever I don't get the point that SSB should be about character requests. I don't get the point because it's wrong.

I'm not hating on other franchises either. You're pulling this all out of thin air.

That is why its better to add 1 new character over 6 clones, who take development time since models have to be created. That is what i think. Also, they take more space on the disc/rom/whatever is used for those consoles than just alts.

What was ported? And it still requires to be coded even if it was ported (and you have no proof it was) and new animations too if there is not enough.

It doesn't matters because it still counts as KI stuff, not SSB stuff. Its origin is KI Uprising, even if it was inspired by SSB. By same logic, DK is Mario or even nature itself's rep. He is a gorilla after all.

Characters and stages? Minor? Are you sure he said that? How can main part of the game be minor?

Why not leave them as alts? It takes even less time while still adding character to the roster.

Yes, they are, but they take no development time, so, it is better than having unique characters. They are just extra, so, they don't take someone's place anyhow. Either them or nothing. What would YOU choose?
Also, i personally know that Ridley being a Charizard clone is nonsense because they look too different, unlike Ganondorf, Dr.Mario, Dark Pit, Lucina, etc. Same goes to Mega Man and few other examples.
Mario series deserve that since it is most popular (or at least very close to that) Nintendo franchise and is one of the most successful (i think Pokemon was more successful). So, it won't be bias. If, for example, Metroid would get 5 new characters, then it would be because there is only 3 characters that are actually worth adding in this franchise (Samus, Dark Samus and Ridley, no ZSS).

I agree, I would rather have a more unique character then the clones. It just couldn't happen. I'm pretty darned sure Sakurai could add in six clones or more in less time then a unique character would, which is exactly why he does it.

Models, textures, songs, animations, sounds. Applying that to monsters would be easy as filling in the blanks of a copy of the general enemy code. Change the statistics and hitboxes and you're good.

I just find the standard to be silly. A Feyeish would be okay, but a Monoeye isn't. Whoopie, KI gets a few more monsters in one mode. I just think people are making too big a deal about this.

They're ultimately minor in the grand scheme of things. It's not worth delaying a game for a character that isn't in by that point. No, Sakurai never said that, nor did I claim he did.

Why sit by and twiddle your thumbs when you could make a few costumes into characters?

Pretty sure you messed up a quote and I won't bother deciphering the rest.

 

[Majora999]

I love Uprising, one of my favorite games of all time and Dark Pit's one of the best characters.

But his ass should've stayed a palette swap, or at LEAST taken up Pit's Brawl moveset.

Would have preferred Hades, personally.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I will say this.

Dark Pit is a perfect **** you towards speculation in pretty much every way. People hate him for it, but I find him to be a really great punishment for those spoiled rotten children that beg for their Ridleys and Mewtwos and what not and discriminate anyone that disagrees. It's a justice I can get behind to be honest.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

ew are people comparing Metaknight and Dark Pit in here?

Metaknight is a distinct character who isn't JUST a palette swap of the same model. He may be a puff but he's got a distinct design. He's got an original moveset as well. He's appeared in more than just one or two games as well. Kirby has 22 titles under it's franchise belt with MK showing up in a good portion of them. Dark PIt is in what.. one game?

Metaknight isn't Kirby's Dark Pit. Dark Pit is more like Kirby's Shadow Kirby form from Amazing Mirror.

I'm not saying that that's what got Dark Pit in or that Dark Pit's relevance is equal to Meta Knight's, but that Sakurai is babying his own series (Kid Icarus) and that it should come as no surprise. You can certainly argue whether or not it's just. Me? Like I said, I don't mind Dark Pit at all, but I would have preferred a character like Mewtwo, Wolf, or even Ridley to him.

 

[kirby_queen]

I'm not saying that that's what got Dark Pit in or that Dark Pit's relevance is equal to Meta Knight's, but that Sakurai is babying his own series (Kid Icarus) and that it should come as no surprise. You can certainly argue whether or not it's just. Me? Like I said, I don't mind Dark Pit at all, but I would have preferred a character like Mewtwo, Wolf, or even Ridley to him.

I personally wouldn't care if Sakurai was that enthralled with his own work IF the character from KIU he choose looked more interesting and played more interestingly than Dark Pit does. I guess I have bigger beef with that. It's just a dull unlockable. I'm not interested in Mewtwo, wolf, or Ridley but they would make for a more interesting unlock.

At least I personally feel like the rest of the newcomers are interesting and it's a good starting roster at least.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

I just wanted to share how I'm looking at it: Dark Pit was more than likely a last-minute addition. The producers likely had done as much as they wanted to/were able to, considering the time constraint Nintendo likely placed on them (since SSB is essentially a financial Hail-Mary in the investors' eyes,) and thought, "What else can we add with the time we have?"
Thus Dark Pit and Dr. Mario. Same voice actors, minor changes outside of character models (I mean, DP's Final Smash is just a dark Light Arrow, for crying out loud!) etc.
Anywho, TL;DR: I'm looking at the clones as an addition to all the new stuff we're already getting, not a detraction from what we could have gotten. Glass half full and all that.

 

[Frostwraith]

I actually expected Dark Pit to be a Pit alt (like Alph), so my expectations were topped when he was revealed as a separate character. Anyway...

From a development standpoint, Dark Pit was very easy to make. All that was necessary was:
- Texture change to darker colors, easily done on any decent image editor (plus removing the light rings from the left arm, which is easily done by using a transparent texture)
- Make 7 new animations for 3 taunts, 3 win poses and 1 Final Smash, which is nothing compared to the game's entire animation work.
- Copy and paste Pit's move data and tweak it a bit.
- Voice acting, which wasn't any problem considering he's voiced by the same actor as Pit in both Japanese and English dubs.

Everything about Dark Pit just screams a low-budget character with a workload that was a mere fraction of any other character in the game. He's not replacing anyone or anything in the game: he's just a small extra the developers threw into the game.

He could have been conceived while they were creating Pit from scratch. While animating Pit's model, all they had to do was to make 7 extra animations and make a second set of textures. When contacting Pit's voice actors, they could have asked them to do lines for Dark Pit as well (and this game isn't very heavy on voice acting). Once they had Pit's moveset ready, all that needed to be done was to use that as a base for Dark Pit's nearly identical moveset, using data from Zelda's FS for the Final Smash.

He could have been done during the developers' spare time/break hours. It's kind of a pay one, take two sort of thing.

I wouldn't be surprised if Dark Pit returned for the next Smash for this exact same reason. He's so easy and quick to make considering Pit is also in the game that his addition doesn't affect the grand scheme of things.

 

[Radical Larry]

Look, here's three absolutely virtuous words you'll all love to hear:
Deal with it.

 

[kro_]

Lucina could be a Marth alt, but is a separate character because she's (at least supposed to be) an easier to use Marth. Dr. Mario is back to please those who prefer the old Mario while not abandoning the new one they made. I haven't tried Dark Pit, but my guess is that he's closer to Brawl Pit as Pit has been changed a little, though I haven't found much footage of him yet.

Why are people so upset over a clone? It's not like it took time to make him. It's not like he stole a slot. His model is just Pit. He couldn't have taken much more time than even a simple skin to make.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Look, here's three absolutely virtuous words you'll all love to hear:
Deal with it.

I actually expected Dark Pit to be a Pit alt (like Alph), so my expectations were topped when he was revealed as a separate character. Anyway...

From a development standpoint, Dark Pit was very easy to make. All that was necessary was:
- Texture change to darker colors, easily done on any decent image editor (plus removing the light rings from the left arm, which is easily done by using a transparent texture)
- Make 7 new animations for 3 taunts, 3 win poses and 1 Final Smash, which is nothing compared to the game's entire animation work.
- Copy and paste Pit's move data and tweak it a bit.
- Voice acting, which wasn't any problem considering he's voiced by the same actor as Pit in both Japanese and English dubs.

Everything about Dark Pit just screams a low-budget character with a workload that was a mere fraction of any other character in the game. He's not replacing anyone or anything in the game: he's just a small extra the developers threw into the game.

He could have been conceived while they were creating Pit from scratch. While animating Pit's model, all they had to do was to make 7 extra animations and make a second set of textures. When contacting Pit's voice actors, they could have asked them to do lines for Dark Pit as well (and this game isn't very heavy on voice acting). Once they had Pit's moveset ready, all that needed to be done was to use that as a base for Dark Pit's nearly identical moveset, using data from Zelda's FS for the Final Smash.

He could have been done during the developers' spare time/break hours. It's kind of a pay one, take two sort of thing.

I wouldn't be surprised if Dark Pit returned for the next Smash for this exact same reason. He's so easy and quick to make considering Pit is also in the game that his addition doesn't affect the grand scheme of things.

Exactly this. Arguing that Ridley or Mewtwo or anyone else didn't make it because of DP is like arguing a Golden Sun rep didn't make it because of Lucina and/or Robin.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Double post, sorry.

 

[Tarkensplat]