Are we giving up on Zelda too early?

[Novice_Brave]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSVzk6sktUw

Ah Phantom looks like it might be good for shield-breaking too. At 1:58 that charged phantom hit really hurt Bowser's shield. Might be a safe ranged way of whittling it down considering how little recovery lag it has compared to Din's.

Oh and that nair into utilt on Bowser at 1:10 was cool, hopefully it's not just big characters that it works on.

Yeah, glad to see combos like that for her when she usually has... a lot of trouble comboing in general, haha. However, I will note that uair - while faster - has nowhere near the knockback it has in Brawl. Looks like a lost kill move to me, since it very barely knocked him up at all from 57%. On the other hand, it might be more useful as a combo/damage racking move, since we gained new kill moves in dash attack and Farore's at the least, and we did suffer from a lack of low knockback moves before.

 

[Anop]

Hey Anop!
Here is what I believe is our first truly good Zelda video for Smash 4. It's a one-on-one stock match vs. a Fox, and there are a lot of neat things to oogle at.

Hope you enjoy it as much as I did ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebFQbwUlIhc

Cool!! thank you!! its very nice to see a zelda victory.. specially in a 1vs1 !! her FW and dash attack are great now

 

[BJN39]

It should be noted that Brawl Zelda's UAir has LOW base KB, (Low percent KB) but HUGE KB growth.

So what you see may just have to do with the low base KB making it at low percent look weak.

 

[Novice_Brave]

It should be noted that Brawl Zelda's UAir has LOW base KB, (Low percent KB) but HUGE KB growth.

So what you see may just have to do with the low base KB making it at low percent look weak.

This is true, and I don't believe I've seen anyone use it on a high percent target - so it could still have that crazy good knockback even with the increased speed... which would be, quite frankly, beautiful

But what I actually meant in the post above when I said uair was utilt, silly me. Utilt hits Bowser at 50 some percent, and he barely moved anywhere, so I really do think its knockback was drastically decreased - however, this could just end up being better for her, since as I said she suffers not from lack of kill moves, but more from lack of safe and reliable damage racking and combo moves. If this gives her an additional one of those, then I still won't be complaining.

 

[Morbi]

Honestly, I did give up on her too early, after seeing some of the buffs; mostly to Farore's Wind, I decided that perhaps she is just "different." I am going to go into trying her with an open mind.

 

[Novice_Brave]

Honestly, I did give up on her too early, after seeing some of the buffs; mostly to Farore's Wind, I decided that perhaps she is just "different." I am going to go into trying her with an open mind.

She does look quite a bit different from past Zelda, and that's something I'm very excited about. I think she's looking more and more with each buff we find to be nudging her way up and out of those dreaded bottom of the barrel positions. Of course, she has a lot that she needs - and some of her disadvantages just come from her inherent stat spread, but I truly believe she has a good chance of making it out of the bottom of the bottom this time around.

Off-topic; I find it both funny and slightly sad that you've made a super impressive 11,077 posts in a little over a year, and I've had this account for four and just started using it earlier this month. Fifty five in four years is pretty impressive, right?

 

[P.J.☆]

How did everyone forget that they removed SDi? Which was one of Zelda's biggest weaknesses. Fsmash and Usmash and even Nair look majorly buffed.

Does anyone know if the Lightning Kicks got buffed? They kinda look like they have alittle bit more range and speed but I can't tell for sure.

 

[Novice_Brave]

How did everyone forget that they removed SDi? Which was one of Zelda's biggest weaknesses. Fsmash and Usmash and even Nair look majorly buffed.

Does anyone know if the Lightning Kicks got buffed? They kinda look like they have alittle bit more range and speed but I can't tell for sure.

I think SDI isn't completely gone, it's just much less prevalent. Still a buff, though, for sure! Especially considering her u-smash and f-smash seem to finish quicker, which gives them even less time to SDI out regardless.

I was trying to find out info on lightning kicks too, I hope they buff them back to at least where they have the larger Melee sweetspot (3x bigger than Brawl's, and lasts for more frames too!), and/or give them back the 10% damage on sourspot instead of the stupid 4% unfortunately, I couldn't find anything too conclusive on that.

 

[Morbi]

How did everyone forget that they removed SDi? Which was one of Zelda's biggest weaknesses. Fsmash and Usmash and even Nair look majorly buffed.

Does anyone know if the Lightning Kicks got buffed? They kinda look like they have alittle bit more range and speed but I can't tell for sure.

They removed SDi? I was not aware, that is terrific news if it is true! I predominately play free-for-all matches myself, where Zelda is not as bottom as everyone asserts; however, I did want to become a more competitive player and I feared that I might not be able to use Zelda in that specific environment.

I think SDI isn't completely gone, it's just much less prevalent. Still a buff, though, for sure! Especially considering her u-smash and f-smash seem to finish quicker, which gives them even less time to SDI out regardless.

I was trying to find out info on lightning kicks too, I hope they buff them back to at least where they have the larger Melee sweetspot (3x bigger than Brawl's, and lasts for more frames too!), and/or give them back the 10% damage on sourspot instead of the stupid 4% unfortunately, I couldn't find anything too conclusive on that.

I feel the same way, I could consistently land "heels" in Melee, but in Brawl, the sweet spot is so minuscule that it is rare that I hit it. I noticed the same thing with Captain Falcon's knee (I do not main him though, so I could be incorrect in that regard).

 

[Novice_Brave]

They removed SDi? I was not aware, that is terrific news if it is true! I predominately play free-for-all matches myself, where Zelda is not as bottom as everyone asserts; however, I did want to become a more competitive player and I feared that I might not be able to use Zelda in that specific environment.


I feel the same way, I could consistently land "heels" in Melee, but in Brawl, the sweet spot is so minuscule that it is rare that I hit it. I noticed the same thing with Captain Falcon's knee (I do not main him though, so I could be incorrect in that regard).

Yeah, SDI is apparently very significantly less prevalent, which is a large buff to Zelda due to her plethora of multihit moves - jab, nair, fsmash, usmash, nayru's.

The sweetspot in Melee is 3x as large as Brawl's, and it also lasts for 4 frames as opposed to 1. It's way, way less feasible to pull off in Brawl - though it is more powerful, I guess. Brawl's dair sweetspot also only lasts for 1 frame and is located in a pretty small area right on her foot. No beuno, so I hope those sweetspots become at least a bit easier to land. And if not, then I really hope they improve the sourspots. 4% damage and virtually nonexistent knockback is pretty gross

 

[Morbi]

Yeah, SDI is apparently very significantly less prevalent, which is a large buff to Zelda due to her plethora of multihit moves - jab, nair, fsmash, usmash, nayru's.

The sweetspot in Melee is 3x as large as Brawl's, and it also lasts for 4 frames as opposed to 1. It's way, way less feasible to pull off in Brawl - though it is more powerful, I guess. Brawl's dair sweetspot also only lasts for 1 frame and is located in a pretty small area right on her foot. No beuno, so I hope those sweetspots become at least a bit easier to land. And if not, then I really hope they improve the sourspots. 4% damage and virtually nonexistent knockback is pretty gross

I do not even attempt to sweet spot her d-air to be honest, I predominantly main Ganondorf, there is no way that I can condition myself to go for the sweet spot . I suppose that I am practicing with Falco (in Brawl). I do not feel as though I can incorporate that into my Zelda experience though. I do agree though, the sour spots are arguably more important than the sweet spots, it can make Zelda a very punishing character to play if you cannot consistently sweet spot.

Thank you for making this thread, it instills a lot more confidence within myself regarding Zelda. I erroneously just believed everything that I heard without actually analyzing her myself.

 

[Novice_Brave]

I do not even attempt to sweet spot her d-air to be honest, I predominantly main Ganondorf, there is no way that I can condition myself to go for the sweet spot . I suppose that I am practicing with Falco (in Brawl). I do not feel as though I can incorporate that into my Zelda experience though. I do agree though, the sour spots are arguably more important than the sweet spots, it can make Zelda a very punishing character to play if you cannot consistently sweet spot.

Thank you for making this thread, it instills a lot more confidence within myself regarding Zelda. I erroneously just believed everything that I heard without actually analyzing her myself.

Thanks! Glad to hear it. That's mostly why I made the thread in the first place. I noticed a lot of negativity and Zelda fans were pretty down in the dumps, but I wanted to make sure we were finding all of her buffs before we passed judgement on her just for being Zelda. I think we've been pretty successful, we've managed to unearth a lot of very useful things - and I am now super excited to get my hands on the game and play Zelda for a very, very long time

 

[micstar615]

Sm4sh Zelda is looking interesting, Farore's Wind being faster and stronger gives it much more utility. Naryu's Love being bigger, having more range and less ending lag is also great. The greatest gift of all seems to be that her Usmash and Fsmash seem to pull characters into the sweetspot, so they'll land more successfully and actually work as reliable smash attacks, her smash attacks in previous iterations were some of the worst in the game so this is a great buff.

Din's seems to be nerfed, but it wasn't her most reliable move in the first place and hopefully there'll be better custom variants of it. Down Smash seems to have lost some range but still seems to work fine and fast like in previous iterations.

We still need more info on all of her aerials, her up tilt and phantom though, if Utilt is a combo starting move, that would help her offensive pressure a ton, tilts in general seem to be more combo-able in this game so let's hope that's the case with Zelda's up tilt. All in all she's looking much better than brawl Zelda, she's traded some power for speed and consistency but still has above average killing power. That's my 2 cents so far, looking forward to actually trying her out!

 

[P.J.☆]

Yeah, SDI is apparently very significantly less prevalent, which is a large buff to Zelda due to her plethora of multihit moves - jab, nair, fsmash, usmash, nayru's.

The sweetspot in Melee is 3x as large as Brawl's, and it also lasts for 4 frames as opposed to 1. It's way, way less feasible to pull off in Brawl - though it is more powerful, I guess. Brawl's dair sweetspot also only lasts for 1 frame and is located in a pretty small area right on her foot. No beuno, so I hope those sweetspots become at least a bit easier to land. And if not, then I really hope they improve the sourspots. 4% damage and virtually nonexistent knockback is pretty gross

I think in the Zelda vs Fox video the guy playing Zelda hit quite a few sour kicks. I think they did 8-9%

On another note have you seen Nair in action?! It looks much more consistent with it's hitboxes this time around! Not as consistent as PM Zelda's but still an impressive buff none the less.

 

[Novice_Brave]

Sm4sh Zelda is looking interesting, Farore's Wind being faster and stronger gives it much more utility. Naryu's Love being bigger, having more range and less ending lag is also great. The greatest gift of all seems to be that her Usmash and Fsmash seem to pull characters into the sweetspot, so they'll land more successfully and actually work as reliable smash attacks, her smash attacks in previous iterations were some of the worst in the game so this is a great buff.

Din's seems to be nerfed, but it wasn't her most reliable move in the first place and hopefully there'll be better custom variants of it. Down Smash seems to have lost some range but still seems to work fine and fast like in previous iterations.

We still need more info on all of her aerials, her up tilt and phantom though, if Utilt is a combo starting move, that would help her offensive pressure a ton, tilts in general seem to be more combo-able in this game so let's hope that's the case with Zelda's up tilt. All in all she's looking much better than brawl Zelda, she's traded some power for speed and consistency but still has above average killing power. That's my 2 cents so far, looking forward to actually trying her out!

Agreed on all accounts, she might not have as much raw power, but when that raw power was not reliable then it was fairly useless anyways. She is much quicker on pretty much all accounts, and of course the changes to multihit moves favor her very strongly. Farore's has been buffed insanely in practically every possible way, and that's one of the best things we could have asked for!

We do definitely need more info on her aerials, especially f/d/bair. We do believe her nair has a decent amount of hitstun, and that in conjuction with the universal multihit move buff means it will likely be a much more dangerous tool. Uair looks like quite a bit faster to come out, though perhaps with lowered knockback - but we can't tell just how much it's been lowered yet. Haven't seen enough of b or fair to really comment on them, unfortunately - and I've barely seen any dair, but I did see Zelda hit Pit with it when he was at 32% or so - and he was able to make it back onto the stage. Not sure what that means for us - and I don't know if the sweetspot size/sourspot properties are different either.

 

[Novice_Brave]

I think in the Zelda vs Fox video the guy playing Zelda hit quite a few sour kicks. I think they did 8-9%

On another note have you seen Nair in action?! It looks much more consistent with it's hitboxes this time around! Not as consistent as PM Zelda's but still an impressive buff none the less.

OH! That's good!! I'll have to go back and rewatch that. Being punished less for not hitting such a crazy sweetspot is definitely very nice. I don't expect sourspot to be powerful, but I do want to at least feel like I did something.

 

[micstar615]

Agreed on all accounts, she might not have as much raw power, but when that raw power was not reliable then it was fairly useless anyways. She is much quicker on pretty much all accounts, and of course the changes to multihit moves favor her very strongly. Farore's has been buffed insanely in practically every possible way, and that's one of the best things we could have asked for!

We do definitely need more info on her aerials, especially f/d/bair. We do believe her nair has a decent amount of hitstun, and that in conjuction with the universal multihit move buff means it will likely be a much more dangerous tool. Uair looks like quite a bit faster to come out, though perhaps with lowered knockback - but we can't tell just how much it's been lowered yet. Haven't seen enough of b or fair to really comment on them, unfortunately - and I've barely seen any dair, but I did see Zelda hit Pit with it when he was at 32% or so - and he was able to make it back onto the stage. Not sure what that means for us - and I don't know if the sweetspot size/sourspot properties are different either.

Hopefully her f/b air work like they did in melee, they were almost unusable in Brawl and I'm glad to hear about Nair, it could be used as a safe aerial approach if it is buffed! I also heard her dash attack was buffed, is that true?

Also completely agreed on her losing power for speed and consistency being a good buff. Her strength was inconsistent, predictable and punishable in previous iterations, here it seems she's still powerful but traded some of it for traits she severely lacked, I'm cautiously optimistic (I'll probably main her either way though )

 

[Novice_Brave]

Hopefully her f/b air work like they did in melee, they were almost unusable in Brawl and I'm glad to hear about Nair, it could be used as a safe aerial approach if it is buffed! I also heard her dash attack was buffed, is that true?

Also completely agreed on her losing power for speed and consistency being a good buff. Her strength was inconsistent, predictable and punishable in previous iterations, here it seems she's still powerful but traded some of it for traits she severely lacked, I'm cautiously optimistic (I'll probably main her either way though )

It's true, her dash attack is crazy fast now, and has a lot more power behind it. It also looks larger. She KOs Fox very easily with it at around 90%, and it looks like it combos into itself at lower %s. I'm not sure how entirely trustworthy Bill's word is, but he also said it had crazy priority, and could "power through" other attacks, so that's always a +1 as well.

 

[P.J.☆]

It's true, her dash attack is crazy fast now, and has a lot more power behind it. It also looks larger. She KOs Fox very easily with it at around 90%, and it looks like it combos into itself at lower %s. I'm not sure how entirely trustworthy Bill's word is, but he also said it had crazy priority, and could "power through" other attacks, so that's always a +1 as well.

Zelda did always have "Transcendant Priority" on like 90% of her attacks in previous games. Maybe they'll actually really have priority! Zelda's hitboxes look crazy big now, along with transcendant priority finally being prevelant in her attacks she'll be a force to be wreckened with this time around!

 

[Toadallstar2]

But what I actually meant in the post above when I said uair was utilt, silly me. Utilt hits Bowser at 50 some percent, and he barely moved anywhere, so I really do think its knockback was drastically decreased - however, this could just end up being better for her, since as I said she suffers not from lack of kill moves, but more from lack of safe and reliable damage racking and combo moves. If this gives her an additional one of those, then I still won't be complaining.

Yepp, it's definitely not a move to pull out to kill anymore, but rather a low-mid % combo. Looks to me like it'd be easy to go into up-smash, fair/bair, or nair. Not sure though, once we play around with it, we'll discover some good techniques.
Nayrus definitely looks to be her safest option yet when in the middle of a clash, especially in FFAs.

 

[L2 Sentinel]

I'm not giving up on Zelda. Even with all the flashy new toys Sakurai and his team are dangling in front of me, Zelda remains the one character I am most excited to play. For better or worse, I intend to get as good as I can with her. If I express any concerns about her being comparitively weak to other characters, it's only because I care. But I'm cautiously optimistic that she will be improved this time around.

 

[Downdraft]

I'd be surprised if she rose above lower mid tier. Sakurai is the lead developer, and he doesn't want to balance the game competitively; I'm not sure he even knows how; with all of his responsibilities, how much time would he have to research competitive play and attend major tournaments to get a feel, appreciation, and understanding of the full potential of the games he has created?

 

[L2 Sentinel]

That's not true. Sakurai and his team has done more for the competitive players than he has ever done in previous Smash games. They brought in Namco-Bandai specifically to help with balance, and they introduced For Glory mode, which could only be seen as a feature for competitive players. He also attended the first ever Smash Fest. While it's not a super competitive tournament, it did give him a taste of the competitive Smash scene, and he said he was inspired by their enthusiasm.

 

[Novice_Brave]

I'd be surprised if she rose above lower mid tier. Sakurai is the lead developer, and he doesn't want to balance the game competitively; I'm not sure he even knows how; with all of his responsibilities, how much time would he have to research competitive play and attend major tournaments to get a feel, appreciation, and understanding of the full potential of the games he has created?

It's definitely true that Zelda is a character who will have a hard time rising through the tiers just by nature of her attributes (tall, slow, floaty) and her base moveset being rather clashing and awkward to use against other high level players and characters. However, I don't think it's anywhere near impossible for her to improve beyond her abysmal placings in both Melee and Brawl, because she has quite a few strong attributes that - if given enough care and attention, and a little tweaking of her playstyle - can make her a fairly strong character. I'm not saying I think Zelda will ever be top tier in a vanilla Smash game, but I do think too many people were "giving up" on her and assuming she will have an abysmal, bottom of the bottom placement again.

However, L2 is also correct in that Sakurai is definitely catering more to the competitive community in Smash 4 than he ever even attempted to in Brawl. What with the invitational, for Glory, FD versions of stages, etc. etc.

 

[Downdraft]

That's not true. Sakurai and his team has done more for the competitive players than he has ever done in previous Smash games. They brought in Namco-Bandai specifically to help with balance, and they introduced For Glory mode, which could only be seen as a feature for competitive players. He also attended the first ever Smash Fest. While it's not a super competitive tournament, it did give him a taste of the competitive Smash scene, and he said he was inspired by their enthusiasm.

For Glory mode does not resemble a tournament setting; where are the counterpick stages? Are stocks the default? I don't care that Namco Bandai is there to provide assistance. The end result is that this game will conform to Sakurai's visions. I've read that Sakurai balances for free for all and singles matches, which is not possible. So far, the game's engine appears to be underwhelming to the tournament scene. What's the first ever Smash Fest? It would take hundreds of hours for him to get a "true" understanding of competitive Smash. You can't just "get it" by reading or using advanced techniques.

Back to the topic, we've seen competitively built Zeldas (Brawl- and PM). Her properties—tall, light, slow, floaty—can be overcome if she's given buffs in the right areas. Aerial Din's Fire still leaves her in helpless, and the move isn't very effective outside of the sweet spot. Can it still be canceled by neutral aerials and air dodges? Is there still a delay between release and detonation? Ultimately, what evidence do we have that her projectile will be any better at stage control or edgeguarding? A few tweaks to physics might help her too. It wouldn't be fair to compare her to Zelda mods without pointing out that those characters were designed to compete in their respective environments.

Taking a note from PM, does Nayru's Love have any invincibility frames? Are love jumping and diamond diving still present? Aside from a more lethal and quicker Farore's Wind, what will her approach options be? Brawl- Zelda has moves that make it hard to approach her, e.g. f-tilt, double Din's, and her distant hitboxes. PM Zelda has teledashing and Din's modifications that allow her to control her opponent's movement options. PM Din's also boost Zelda's combo game. U-tilt is a combo move now. Are chain u-throws still possible? What do angled f-tilts do? Zelda has never lacked killpower, so I'm not worried about certain moves having reduced knockback. She needs reliable means of killing opponents, better approach options or modifications to her moveset that force approaches, and a good combo game.

As I've stated previously, I will play Zelda when I play for fun. Please don't view me as just a dissenter. I've played Zelda extensively. Up until late April, she'd been my main whenever I'd played the game since sometime in 2008. I'm familiar with her struggles in the official series and her adjustments in the two most popular mods. I don't want her to be easy to play, but I don't want her to be an ordeal either, which is what she's been in the official series and even PM from personal experience.

 

[ihskeyp]

For Glory mode does not resemble a tournament setting; where are the counterpick stages? Are stocks the default? I don't care that Namco Bandai is there to provide assistance. The end result is that this game will conform to Sakurai's visions. I've read that Sakurai balances for free for all and singles matches, which is not possible. So far, the game's engine appears to be underwhelming to the tournament scene. What's the first ever Smash Fest? It would take hundreds of hours for him to get a "true" understanding of competitive Smash. You can't just "get it" by reading or using advanced techniques.

Back to the topic, we've seen competitively built Zeldas (Brawl- and PM). Her properties—tall, light, slow, floaty—can be overcome if she's given buffs in the right areas. Aerial Din's Fire still leaves her in helpless, and the move isn't very effective outside of the sweet spot. Can it still be canceled by neutral aerials and air dodges? Is there still a delay between release and detonation? Ultimately, what evidence do we have that her projectile will be any better at stage control or edgeguarding? A few tweaks to physics might help her too. It wouldn't be fair to compare her to Zelda mods without pointing out that those characters were designed to compete in their respective environments.

Taking a note from PM, does Nayru's Love have any invincibility frames? Are love jumping and diamond diving still present? Aside from a more lethal and quicker Farore's Wind, what will her approach options be? Brawl- Zelda has moves that make it hard to approach her, e.g. f-tilt, double Din's, and her distant hitboxes. PM Zelda has teledashing and Din's modifications that allow her to control her opponent's movement options. PM Din's also boost Zelda's combo game. U-tilt is a combo move now. Are chain u-throws still possible? What do angled f-tilts do? Zelda has never lacked killpower, so I'm not worried about certain moves having reduced knockback. She needs reliable means of killing opponents, better approach options or modifications to her moveset that force approaches, and a good combo game.

As I've stated previously, I will play Zelda when I play for fun. Please don't view me as just a dissenter. I've played Zelda extensively. Up until late April, she'd been my main whenever I'd played the game since sometime in 2008. I'm familiar with her struggles in the official series and her adjustments in the two most popular mods. I don't want her to be easy to play, but I don't want her to be an ordeal either, which is what she's been in the official series and even PM from personal experience.

They've done a lot more for competitive players than they ever have before. Quit being greedy.

 

[Novice_Brave]

They've done a lot more for competitive players than they ever have before. Quit being greedy.

While it's true that they have done a lot more this time around to cater to that audience, I also understand what Downdraft is saying - yes, they are trying to reach out more to the competitive audience, and that's a good thing, but at the same time Sakurai can never fully focus on the competitive scene since, by its nature, the game is meant to be played in many different ways - and he also has to focus on making the game fun and playable for those frantic 4-player, items on, stage hazard filled group. I wouldn't say Downdraft is being "greedy," and I don't think we should resort to posts that just put someone else down . I completely agree with you, though, that the competitive scene is legitimately being considered as a core audience, and that we're getting more in the way of competitive perks than we have been before - but ultimately, it's also true that the nature of the game is something that will never really allow for a total focus on competitive like some hope for. I'm fine with it as it is, and I'm happy that Sakurai is giving it more thought and consideration, but I don't think its fair to call someone greedy for knowing that the game is not going to be focused on the competitive aspect as fully as some would hope for in a game they play competitively. Also please don't feel like I'm trying to attack you or anything, that's not my intention. I agree with you about the competitive scene for sure!

For Glory mode does not resemble a tournament setting; where are the counterpick stages? Are stocks the default? I don't care that Namco Bandai is there to provide assistance. The end result is that this game will conform to Sakurai's visions. I've read that Sakurai balances for free for all and singles matches, which is not possible. So far, the game's engine appears to be underwhelming to the tournament scene. What's the first ever Smash Fest? It would take hundreds of hours for him to get a "true" understanding of competitive Smash. You can't just "get it" by reading or using advanced techniques.

Back to the topic, we've seen competitively built Zeldas (Brawl- and PM). Her properties—tall, light, slow, floaty—can be overcome if she's given buffs in the right areas. Aerial Din's Fire still leaves her in helpless, and the move isn't very effective outside of the sweet spot. Can it still be canceled by neutral aerials and air dodges? Is there still a delay between release and detonation? Ultimately, what evidence do we have that her projectile will be any better at stage control or edgeguarding? A few tweaks to physics might help her too. It wouldn't be fair to compare her to Zelda mods without pointing out that those characters were designed to compete in their respective environments.

Taking a note from PM, does Nayru's Love have any invincibility frames? Are love jumping and diamond diving still present? Aside from a more lethal and quicker Farore's Wind, what will her approach options be? Brawl- Zelda has moves that make it hard to approach her, e.g. f-tilt, double Din's, and her distant hitboxes. PM Zelda has teledashing and Din's modifications that allow her to control her opponent's movement options. PM Din's also boost Zelda's combo game. U-tilt is a combo move now. Are chain u-throws still possible? What do angled f-tilts do? Zelda has never lacked killpower, so I'm not worried about certain moves having reduced knockback. She needs reliable means of killing opponents, better approach options or modifications to her moveset that force approaches, and a good combo game.

As I've stated previously, I will play Zelda when I play for fun. Please don't view me as just a dissenter. I've played Zelda extensively. Up until late April, she'd been my main whenever I'd played the game since sometime in 2008. I'm familiar with her struggles in the official series and her adjustments in the two most popular mods. I don't want her to be easy to play, but I don't want her to be an ordeal either, which is what she's been in the official series and even PM from personal experience.

On the note of Zelda's competitive viability this time around, she has been given a lot of new tools to use - and it'll take us some time to really understand how they change her playstyle and what it means for her in this game's meta. We do know she has an improved recovery (in lots and lots of ways), at least seemingly more combo potential with her tilts and aerials (aside from her sweetspot aerials) made faster, with more hitstun and less knockback. We know the system is in her favor with how it handles multihit moves, and we know she has a completely new move that we need to take the time to play around with. I think she's been given a lot of things that can help to push her out of her unfortunate tier placements, and I'm optimistic and excited for her, but I admit it is always possible that even with buffs her disadvantages can overpower her and force her back down. I choose not to focus on that, though, and rather on what I think is a good opportunity for her!

 

[TeamFlareZakk]

I wouldn't give up on The Queen Bee of Hyrule, not ever, she's Zelda and I mained her with Ganondorf ever since Melee and I intend to do the same in Super Smash Bros 4.

She's already part of my Super Smash Sisters faction I call The Beautiful People, I added like all the female newcomers to the faction and Zelda would totally be the leader of the faction.

 

[im just peachy]

I'm not giving up.

It's Zelda. It's my main since I bought Melee.
She could get worse than Brawl, I'll still main her. Because it's Zelda.

I agree with this post, except she's been my second main since melee
don't give up, look at who we're talking about

 

[Tino]

I wouldn't say I'll be giving up on Zelda, I just won't be playing as her as much as I did in Brawl. She will be one of those characters I only plan to play as from time to time, depending on whether I feel like it.

 

[Anop]

From footage that i have seen of some of zelda online matches it Looks like she could be a counter of big characters like bowser and DDD.. IM NOT GIVING UP WITH HER!! EVER

 

[Kevandre]

No, she's really good. I got completely wrecked by a Zelda earlier playing as Robin. Got her back next match though.

One of those "in the right hands" characters. I loved her in Melee, definitely my second favorite after Roy, but for some reason she kind of dropped off in Brawl for me... She may make a comeback in this game.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

She's actually REALLY bad, but ok

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

It's going to be tough for Zelda to overcome the flaws of her character. Being based around sweetspots is interesting, but her game always has been and always will be about getting in hits when you can, when your opponent allows it.

Oh well, I still love her, and dream of the day that a perfect combo to lightning kick is discovered. :3

 

[ZombieBran]

She's better than ever as far as official Smash goes. But that's really not saying much.

I have huge bones to pick with Sakurai. Out of all the characters -save maybe Palutena who is, afaik, absolutely awful- Zelda seems like the least polished. fsmash can be escaped randomly, aerials have FAR too much lag/land lag, Din's hitbox doesn't match the graphics but this time it's for the worse, Phantom is awful outside of very precise situations, and Up-Smash is too tiny.

At least I don't feel like I've forfeited when I select her character icon.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

All you need to escape Fsmash is to hold up.

 

[ZombieBran]

oh my ****ing god
seriously

I swear Sakurai's wife or some friend of his mains Zelda and he's salty that he loses so he purposely makes her bad in every game.
This is the only conclusion I can come to after seeing Bowser's buffs,

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

After some (a lot, in fact) duels for glory, I can say two things: Zelda is clearly better than before, but you clearly shouldn't play her like you played her in Melee and Brawl.
Lighting kicks for example feels a lot more situational, and I feel that the phantom must be used as a wall/decoy more than an attack. I also realize that I use a lot more Nayru's Love, against people rolling around you. I'm not sure, but I feel that there's a little invulnerability time.
She still retains an aspect that she had before, though: she relies on punishing, yet you also have to take risks.

After playing her against tenacious opponents who wants to win, all I can say is that I'm not giving up, and I really enjoy playing her the most.

 

[ZombieBran]

An alarming portion of my attempted kicks fail. I really hate the circle pad.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Yes, as much as I find the 3DS gameplay (surprisingly) good, nothing can beat the gamecube controller.