Are we giving up on Zelda too early?

[Novice_Brave]

I've been lurking the Zelda forums for a while, as well as following all sorts of news and pictures and videos regarding her. Zelda, along with Ness and Wolf, is one of the members of my Brawl trifecta, so any news about her is exciting to me!

I've been finding myself pretty disappointed in all the negativity surrounding Zelda in Smash 4, though. I understand that hopes can't be too high after both Melee and Brawl Zelda place low, but I feel like some people are simply assuming she'll be back to being bottom of the barrel just because she's Zelda. I think this is giving up on her a bit too soon!

From what I've seen, Zelda has actually received a good amount of important buffs. Nayru's looks larger, and it also looks like it has less landing lag. Farore's wind got a SUPER BUFF. It appears much faster, I believe it autograbs ledges now, and the reappearance explosion is inexplicably an amazing kill move now. Seeing it kill Mario at 80% or so was crazy. Seeing it just barely avoid killing DONKEY KONG at 90% was also crazy.

I'm not certain about din's. It looks faster, both in terms of travel time and how fast it explodes upon release, but it is still a fairly predictable and unsafe projectile for sure. It also looks like it can't travel as far, unfortunately.

Phantom, I believe, will need a lot of playing around with before we write it off as a terrible special. It doesn't look too worth it to charge, but I think it could be extremely useful uncharged. Simply being able to pop out a quick meat shield in front of you is something that I feel has more potential than a lot of people are taking into account. Against enemies with predictable, straight line smash attacks or even against someone like Olimar, being able to pop the phantom out to take the hit and possibly return one (and kill a Pikmin!) seems like it'd have a lot of potential.

Her ftilt and utilt look insanely fast now, especially compared to their being pretty sluggish even in Brawl terms before.

I haven't seen enough of her smashes to be able to really tell what's going on there, but at the very least her dsmash still seems like an extremely fast, safe option. And of course, her fair and bair kicks seem to have just as much, possibly more, potential for massacre as before.

As a Zelda player, I'm actually liking the way she's shaping up so far. I think some people are writing her off too quickly based on her just being Zelda and from her performance at the invitational - but we saw one 4 player free for all match with items, and the player (no offense intended - I'm sure still a very solid player!) was simply outmatched by the skill level of her fellows in that moment.

What does everyone think? Are we writing her off too soon, or does she really look super bad to you already?

 

[ぱみゅ]

It's not about having low hope because she was bottom earlier.
She was already tested by many (experienced and not-too-experienced players) and judging from testimonies and mechanics descriptions, she does sound bad. As in, some of those descriptions are terrible beyond imagination (like Phantom Knight not hitting on his trail, but only when he swings his sword, wtf).

We're not giving up, we're judging what we've seen others do, and right now her character design is just bad.

One can only hope we're not too late into development to save her from that doom

 

[ECHOnce]

To put it simply, we'd love for her to be better. There may be a bit of negativity here on the boards, but it all comes from rational testing and analysis from the demo. Just trying to keep it real aha...it's sounds terrible to be saying this already, but if she doesn't get some major adjustments before release, she's almost certainly guaranteed low-tier, and that's coming from several players that have committed to Zelda since as far back as Melee, despite her drawbacks. Im not one of them, but I've read what they think and they know the character inside out. I was hopeful she's do better too at first, and pointed several aspects of her which I thought had been buffed since Brawl as well, but the more I've discussed these ideas and read up on their Zelda know-how, the more I've come to trust their concerns.

With all of that said, I can assure u we're all keeping high hopes for her, so long as Nintendo figures out how to help her before release (:

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

I'm not giving up.

It's Zelda. It's my main since I bought Melee.
She could get worse than Brawl, I'll still main her. Because it's Zelda.

 

[Novice_Brave]

True - it's likely that I'll still play her to death no matter what changes she gets or does not get. She certainly can't go much (relatively) lower at this point, anyway. I'm just hoping she can finally find somewhere else in this installment - though, that's difficult just by property of her physical characteristics and base moveset, unfortunately. I just don't see exactly what makes her seem any worse, at the very least. It seems to me like she has received at least small buffs from Brawl, but then again, I did not play her at the Best Buy demo - opted to play WFT and Rosalina instead, so maybe I'm just confused because I'm trying to look at it from an "on-paper" mindset.

 

[Nintendo Fan]

I can honestly say that she looks better than her Brawl incarnation. But then again, everyone else looks pretty buffed as well (except for maybe Marth ).

She looks like a threat for groups though since she could stand to the side and Phantom Slash/Din's Fire the group (I don't mean spamming) and get pressure of her back with decent smashes...but 1v1s most likely have her relegated to low tier. It really comes down to her moveset, which is largely based on chance sweetspots amidst her abysmal approaches due to her stature and speed; clearly, that's what's hindering her.

After hearing from Zelda and non-Zelda players about her it doesn't really matter to me since tier-crazed players won't bother tinkering with her giving her playerbase more of a reason to say true to and “prove” her. Plus if she's god tier she wouldn't be fun to use (for me) since it'd be akin to a bunch of MK lunatics bragging about her when I'd be using her because she's just awesome.

I'm going to laugh when Rosalina Kart 8 too-good-for-you's think she is the best character and end up hating her floatiness and ditch her. Only then will her true supporters reveal themselves.

 

[☆Jazz☆]

Well, I would like for Zelda to get out of bottom tier, but I am not giving up on her. I shall main her , along with others.

 

[Novice_Brave]

I'll be keeping hope alive for her to make it out of bottom tier, but regardless she looks just as fun as ever - and a lot of my play does happen in four player matches so she'll still be fun to play around with in those regardless of how low her placement is this time around. However, it's also true that first impressions aren't always accurate. She moved (well...dropped) 17 places throughout the Brawl tier list revision history - and Olimar rose a good 15-16, so I think we definitely need to get our hands on the game for a good long while before we can make super accurate assumptions.

Hope is alive in my heart ;w;

 

[Nintendo Fan]

I'll be keeping hope alive for her to make it out of bottom tier, but regardless she looks just as fun as ever - and a lot of my play does happen in four player matches so she'll still be fun to play around with in those regardless of how low her placement is this time around. However, it's also true that first impressions aren't always accurate. She moved (well...dropped) 17 places throughout the Brawl tier list revision history - and Olimar rose a good 15-16, so I think we definitely need to get our hands on the game for a good long while before we can make super accurate assumptions.

Hope is alive in my heart ;w;

Don't get me wrong, I hope she's out of bottom tier too, since, even if I claim to be good with her, and someone else is just as good with a higer tier character, chances are I'd lose. I mean, if I were to verse myself with a better character, I'd clearly win (lol). So a movement in tier position is definitely a pro, but as I said earlier, I don't need more #MK4LYFE #OMGDIDDYBANANAHAX, so her being B tier is, I think, just enough to save her from overuse...anyways she doesn't need to be judged by tiers, she can defend herself.

 

[smashingDoug]

im not out of everyone so far she is the one im looking forward to most who cares about tier list i beat toes of people who pick high on the tier with me picking low just play smart and you will be fine

 

[Novice_Brave]

I'm not a huge tier list follower, so that's not even really my issue here
I main Ness and Zelda in Brawl! Obviously, it is more about skill-vs-skill than character - but I would still really like to see Zelda finally escape bottom tier and I've actually been really excited about the buffs I think she's been given this installment. My main concern was people writing her off too quickly, not necessarily what her fate will actually be once we've had our hands on the game.

I just felt like the Zelda board was sort of dead and down in the dumps, so I thought I'd try to share my excitement and get people pumped for her again!

 

[Toadallstar2]

Yeah, I too feel optimistic and see more buffs than I do nerfs or no change.
She might still be bottom, we don't have an accessment of every other character. But even the physics seem to be on her side this time.
Way too early to tell, but I feel she'll be better than her Brawl counterpart already. No major complaints from me.

 

[☆Jazz☆]

The only thing that puts me in a pretty bad situation when i'm playing as Zelda...is fighting against short characters like Olimar and Pikachu xD.

 

[Nintendo Fan]

The only thing that puts me in a pretty bad situation when i'm playing as Zelda...is fighting against short characters like Olimar and Pikachu xD.

Exactly! I can never Lightning Kick those guys cause they're too small . I usually have to D-tilt them at high percentages to make them bounce up then try to hit 'em. That reminds me...does she still have her 30% tripping chance with this move? It's hilarious to trap unsuspecting people with .

 

[☆Jazz☆]

Exactly! I can never Lightning Kick those guys cause they're too small . I usually have to D-tilt them at high percentages to make them bounce up then try to hit 'em. That reminds me...does she still have her 30% tripping chance with this move? It's hilarious to trap unsuspecting people with .

Idk. Sadly, I never went to Smash Fest.

Now on the topic on her Lighting Kicks, 8/10 i'll land them perfectly on someone around the same size as DeDeDe/Ganondorf.

 

[Downdraft]

As others have suggested, Zelda is still light, slow, tall, and floaty. Additionally, her aerial attacks are still dependent on sweet spots. Furthermore, Din's Fire wasn't improved and still puts her in helpless if used from the air. The changes to Meteor Heel are the only substantial ones to me. If Sakurai truly wanted to make some characters better, he could talk to the competitive community himself or draw inspiration from Project M or Brawl-. Sakurai could pick from a list of buffs given to Zelda in Project M, and I would laugh and love if Zelda had Brawl- f-tilt in Smash 4. Unfortunately, I haven't observed any indication that the development staff has taken major notes from PM, so I have no hope for Zelda. Since I have no expectations, I won't be disappointed when I play her myself. Although, in her current form, I only plan to use her in free for alls, doubles, and casual play. I'm hoping Palutena will be an adequate replacement for Zelda. I'm also interested in Rosalina & Luma and female Robin.

 

[Banjo-Kazooie]

Well, most of the veterans are being overlooked by the fresh and flashy newcomers. But I still want to play with Zelda over all of them. I had a sick Zelda in Melee and I abused Zelda in Brawl before everyone learned how to SDI.
But I think most of the people who played Zelda in the past didn't played her because of her high placement in tiers anyway.

 

[micstar615]

Zelda is an important character to me, she's the first character I played as in smash EVER, way back in 2001. I mained her in melee and brawl. Her lightening kick, defense and punish oriented gameplay was very fun in melee. In Brawl she sucked in 1 vs 1 but owned in 4 player matches thanks to her powerful smash attacks. However during the transition she became less fun to play as and was basically a sitting duck in most serious matches. I seriously hope that she's not as bad and gets some buffs before SSB4 comes out, either way I'll play the hell out of her and she'll always have a special place in my heart.

 

[Downdraft]

Zelda doesn't appear to have any notable changes in Smash 4 that will force previous players to relearn the matchup versus a character that's been historically bad in the official games. Zelda was my main in Brawl when I played the game casually, but that didn't translate to competitive play, so I dropped the game. She was the only character I liked in Brawl, and I'm not going to play a game with characters I don't like or don't have much experience with when there are alternatives, PM and Brawl-, that make said character much better and more fun to play. However, I stopped maining her in PM too. I had an emotional attachment, and the losses were too much to bear; she was still a tough character to compete with at a high level versus players that were familiar with the matchup. As I stated previously, I will occasionally use her when I'm playing just for fun.

 

[Dunk Master]

Good. I hope everyone writes her off. It's their loss. I love playing Zelda and the fact that she is so under played makes her feel more unique and special. Personally, I like her not being in the spot light. Thats my input anyway.

From the sounds of it though, she is suffering. I mean she has gotten considerable buffs - that Farore's wind reappearance buff is awesome - but all the other characters have been considerably buffed too. We wont stop believing though (And if she does turn out really good no one else has to know)

 

[micstar615]

Zelda doesn't appear to have any notable changes in Smash 4 that will force previous players to relearn the matchup versus a character that's been historically bad in the official games. Zelda was my main in Brawl when I played the game casually, but that didn't translate to competitive play, so I dropped the game. She was the only character I liked in Brawl, and I'm not going to play a game with characters I don't like or don't have much experience with when there are alternatives, PM and Brawl-, that make said character much better and more fun to play. However, I stopped maining her in PM too. I had an emotional attachment, and the losses were too much to bear; she was still a tough character to compete with at a high level versus players that were familiar with the matchup. As I stated previously, I will occasionally use her when I'm playing just for fun.

I heard that she's a top tier character in PM though? I might be wrong since I don't play competitively, but I've watched matches with a Zelda player named Zhime, he's really good with her in PM!

 

[BJN39]

I heard that she's a top tier character in PM though? I might be wrong since I don't play competitively, but I've watched matches with a Zelda player named Zhime, he's really good with her in PM!

What you've probably heard is from the Clash tournament's unofficial P:M Tier list, where she's tied for the 3rd best character. That list isn't entirely accurate though, the representation for P:M Zelda in the area where CT mostly resides is very good, and that somewhat influenced the players who voted on the CT tier list.

Don't get me wrong, I believe Zelda is really good in P:M. Just maybe not top tier. High tier or high-middle is a more accurate placement IMO, but not everyone agrees. To each his own when it comes to P:M, honestly. No one will agree on anything.

 

[RPGatWill]

The demo testers do seem to be providing valuable feedback, so one can only hope any issues Zelda has can be adressed to some degree before the full release. Otherwise People will find ways around her disadvantages. I for one know I always tend to be good with low tier characters, so Zelda going up in tier can only help me in the end, but her remaining the way she is won't hurt me either. I'm in it to play characters I like, not to force wins with High tier characters.

 

[Anop]

Have you seen any Zeldas in the 3DS tournament?? i want to see if she was a little more used than in the wii u demos.. I heard from the announcer that in early 3ds matches there were many Zeldas.. But i couldn´t watch the whole event and didn´t see any of my favorite princess

 

[RPGatWill]

Have you seen any Zeldas in the 3DS tournament?? i want to see if she was a little more used than in the wii u demos.. I heard from the announcer that in early 3ds matches there were many Zeldas.. But i couldn´t watch the whole event and didn´t see any of my favorite princess

We saw Bill of Treehouse live using Zelda at one point, put most of the 3DS tournament yesterday was missed out on until there were about 16 people left or so due to the double elimination. By then most of the unique picks were gone, and I can't remember seeing a single Zelda in those final groupings. Sheik, Bowser and Toon Link were the final four, and I know a few more were in matches before that, but forgive me that my memory is failing me.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

The Zeldas on the firsts 3DS matchs were playing very badly. Din spam, for example...

 

[PrimalCarnage]

Yeah Bill was the only decent Zelda we saw all night.

Din's Fire on a moving platform stage = bad idea. Half of their deaths were suicides.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Yeah, Din's Fire above the Spirit Tracks = Bad Idea.

But being helpless because of Din's Fire IS a bad idea to begin with.

 

[Anop]

We saw Bill of Treehouse live using Zelda at one point, put most of the 3DS tournament yesterday was missed out on until there were about 16 people left or so due to the double elimination.

Any video available of Bill playing with zelda??

 

[RPGatWill]

Any video available of Bill playing with zelda??

It's somewhere in the stream, but god help me if I know where. I'd hazard a guess around the 4 hour mark, but you may need to jump back forward or back a little from there to find it.

 

[Anop]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idw0P5x5b14&list=UUGIY_O-8vW4rfX98KlMkvRg#t=6h46m10s
I found it! she is at 3:36:00
But she got last and didn´t play very well

 

[Novice_Brave]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idw0P5x5b14&list=UUGIY_O-8vW4rfX98KlMkvRg#t=6h46m10s
I found it! she is at 3:36:00
But she got last and didn´t play very well

Hey Anop!
Here is what I believe is our first truly good Zelda video for Smash 4. It's a one-on-one stock match vs. a Fox, and there are a lot of neat things to oogle at.

Hope you enjoy it as much as I did ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebFQbwUlIhc

 

[Toadallstar2]

16% fresh sweetsport dair 3:42:30

Yeah that free-for-all wasn't too good at all, dsmash is disappointing. She's quicker though, it's easier to dodge attacks.
He didn't know how to use her... nair, f-smash, and Nayrus would have been nice. He could have got so many KOs with Faroes. I wish we seen more Phantom usage as well.
Dins sweetspot is nice but it's hard to do.
Thx for posting/timestamping, I love watching.

 

[Novice_Brave]

Yeah, Bill is not the best Zelda I've seen, haha. Though I must admit, he's not terrible at hitting her sweetspotted aerials... I'm surprised Pit recovered from that dair, to be quite frank. I don't think I've really ever seen Bill use Phantom or nair, and he's the best Zelda we've seen so far, sadly.

Have you seen the one-on-one w/Fox? Beautiful Farore's, new property on u-smash, dash attack goodies galore.

 

[Novice_Brave]

16% fresh sweetsport dair 3:42:30

Yeah that free-for-all wasn't too good at all, dsmash is disappointing. She's quicker though, it's easier to dodge attacks.
He didn't know how to use her... nair, f-smash, and Nayrus would have been nice. He could have got so many KOs with Faroes. I wish we seen more Phantom usage as well.
Dins sweetspot is nice but it's hard to do.
Thx for posting/timestamping, I love watching.

Hate to double post, but I totally forgot to quote you in that first one. Oops...

 

[Toadallstar2]

Yeah, Bill is not the best Zelda I've seen, haha. Though I must admit, he's not terrible at hitting her sweetspotted aerials... I'm surprised Pit recovered from that dair, to be quite frank. I don't think I've really ever seen Bill use Phantom or nair, and he's the best Zelda we've seen so far, sadly.

Have you seen the one-on-one w/Fox? Beautiful Farore's, new property on u-smash, dash attack goodies galore.

Yepp the Fox video was discussed here I believe.
http://smashboards.com/threads/hd-6...t-feed-zeldas-upsmash-pulls-people-in.362435/

And yeah that was a good match with Fox, but Bill is one of the worst (not best) we seen. Actually, earlier videos posted all throughout here... has been excellent. Zelda won a lot.
http://smashboards.com/threads/best...what-do-you-think-of-zelda-in-smash-4.357899/
I'm gonna go through and find my favorite, one really impressed me where she scalped the competition.

 

[Toadallstar2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxxDDAcMGE4
Amazing NEW video for Zelda... She was in 3 matches, 2 were horrible... But 1 was great.
6:50, we see how great Farore's is, and Nayru's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSVzk6sktUw
Old, but it shows how Phantom is good in situations.

 

[Novice_Brave]

That second Zelda match in that tourney was really nice love to see her new Farore, as always, and her Nayru's looked... not sure how to put it exactly, but definitely better.

Phantom looks like it can be useful in a variety of situations, to me. I always love a good meatshield, so I feel like a lot of my phantoms will be quick uncharged Phantoms to take a hit for me and allow me to stay open to moving and attacking.

 

[PrimalCarnage]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSVzk6sktUw

Ah Phantom looks like it might be good for shield-breaking too. At 1:58 that charged phantom hit really hurt Bowser's shield. Might be a safe ranged way of whittling it down considering how little recovery lag it has compared to Din's.

Oh and that nair into utilt on Bowser at 1:10 was cool, hopefully it's not just big characters that it works on.

 

[RPGatWill]

Hey Anop!
Here is what I believe is our first truly good Zelda video for Smash 4. It's a one-on-one stock match vs. a Fox, and there are a lot of neat things to oogle at.

Hope you enjoy it as much as I did ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebFQbwUlIhc

This makes it seem like she's perfectly viable to me. All the extra videos just reaffirm that belief.