Are recoveries in P:M too good?

[Kally Wally]

Also, just like I said they are mimicking Puff level recoveries. I also don't think it would hurt to Mimic Falco. Awesome stage game, terrible recovery? One or two more of those might not be bad to see. If he can do it. I am sure some others can, too.

Roy and Yoshi. Arguably Wario too, even though he has Jiggs-like properties in the air, his recovery isn't that great, unless you feel like giving up the waft (if you have it.)

 

[Paradoxium]

Yoshi has good recovery if you're smart with his second jump, that super armor is really good. And can't yoshi rising nair back on stage?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

You just need to #intercept against PM recoveries. I think its a good thing that edgehog->wait for them to die isn't enough anymore. Although I have no problem with the recoveries in general, I would OK if the average recovery was a little bit weaker, imho its at the edge to making it too easy, but that impression is distorted by Melees skill-affording proportion heavily favoring the edgeguarder...
TLDR: Edgeguard better.

 

[turtletank]

I definitely think a lot of the recoveries in this game are too good, but now that I think about, it's probably to fill the gap that tethers create. Tethers are ridiculous and once they get reverted to how they worked in melee, I expect everyone else's recoveries to be tweaked.

The tethering mechanics are intentionally different.

 

[Ten_Squat_Curls]

You have to understand that PM is Brawl 1.5, with Smash 4 coming out being Brawl 2.0. With that being said I think the recoveries arent good enough. I should be able to up-b 5 times, tether grab straight to edge while being completely invincible and also be able to play characters with auto combos that even a 5 year old can pull off. Oh wait, that is PM.

 

[bolt.]

Who cares what's not in melee? Melee is remarkably bland by comparison, imbalanced, little variety.
Besides, every character can attack out of their recovery options in Melee. What are double jumps? idk
Exaggerations aside, peach and jigglypuff can do that fairly easily.

To call melee, one of the most complex games ever, remarkably bland just shows how ignorant you are. You just lost all credibility in my book.

By using that kind of logic, one could argue this : "Snake is not in Melee. It shouldn't be in Project M", or this : "Smashville is not in Melee. It shouldn't be in Project M".
So yeah. That is a pretty dumb point to make.

I was talking about mechanics, as long as p:m follows the same mechanics as melee it's a solid game, but once it adds in new mechanics in it doesn't even deserve the title project: melee.

 

[Vashimus]

Relax, he said in comparison to P:M. It's an opinion, and considering it's DrinkingFood, he really couldn't care less what you think of him.

 

[Tomrw Sunshine&Clouds]

To call melee, one of the most complex games ever, remarkably bland just shows how ignorant you are. You just lost all credibility in my book.

Its ok brah, general IQ of PM players is only matched by the darker complexed so called "humans" in our population.

 

[ELI-mination]

You have to understand that PM is Brawl 1.5, with Smash 4 coming out being Brawl 2.0. With that being said I think the recoveries arent good enough. I should be able to up-b 5 times, tether grab straight to edge while being completely invincible and also be able to play characters with auto combos that even a 5 year old can pull off. Oh wait, that is PM.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the dumbest human being that has ever existed

 

[Vashimus]

I was talking about mechanics, as long as p:m follows the same mechanics as melee it's a solid game, but once it adds in new mechanics in it doesn't even deserve the title project: melee.

It's not even called Project Melee. If you were expecting Melee 2.0, you might as well leave right now.

 

[bolt.]

Relax, he said in comparison to P:M. It's an opinion, and considering it's DrinkingFood, he really couldn't care less what you think of him.

It's an ignorant opinion, that's why I called him out on it.

Also, why would I expect anything other than a more balanced version of melee with more characters and better stages?

 

[Vashimus]

That's not what you said.

I was talking about mechanics, as long as p:m follows the same mechanics as melee it's a solid game, but once it adds in new mechanics in it doesn't even deserve the title project: melee.

What exactly are you implying with this? Because there are additional things that weren't present in Melee like air glide tossing or DACUS, Project M is made worse because of it?

 

[Fortress]

Why are we arguing about this? Apples and oranges. Two completely different games.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I like the Brawl-esque recoveries.

 

[DrinkingFood]

@ KuroganeHammer he's throwing a tantrum you should consider doing something about it
actually you don't really have to
he'll get bored eventually and leave, they don't really develop attention spans until they turn 16

edit: wow ****ing ninja'd

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I think y'all are throwing tantrums. Tantrums aren't really infractable unless they get personal either since they're all opinions.

I don't see why you people can't say "I like good recoveries" or "I like bad recoveries" without having to be at each others necks.

 

[DrinkingFood]

well I was talking about the dozen or so now deleted threads
but ok you can scold me
I guess

 

[KuroganeHammer]

see context is nice

i thought you were complaining about the guy who disagreed with your opinion

 

[DrinkingFood]

see there you mistake me for somebody that gives at least one ****

and considering it's DrinkingFood, he really couldn't care less what you think of him.

well it's easier to let vash say it for me
not that I won't correct people when I think they're wrong, or perhaps even stupid
I'm just not invested enough to complain about some thing like that

 

[KuroganeHammer]

see there you mistake me for somebody that gives at least one ****

plz i am not mind reader ;___;

sheik forward air

 

[bolt.]

<_<
SO, back to the topic at hand, I still think being able to attack out of a recovery move is overpowered and makes recovery too safe. Basically, make the average recovery about marth level, good recovery but easy enough to kill when he's off stage. If the recoveries are too good it takes away the advantage you gained by hitting them off stage.
=D

 

[TreK]

I was talking about mechanics, as long as p:m follows the same mechanics as melee it's a solid game, but once it adds in new mechanics in it doesn't even deserve the title project: melee.

It ism't even trying to have the same mechanics as Melee. It has implemented a bunch of stuff from brawl like glide tosses, rar, dacus, pivot grabs and glides, and has also come up with new mechanics like crawl tilts, air glide tosses, multi tap smashes, a third sort of tether recoveries, OHC, etc...
I mean they even put a flash on L cancel. If you need something that screams "we actually question the mechanics in Super Smash Bros Melee and believe they can be improved a whole lot", there ypu have it.

 

[bolt.]

It ism't even trying to have the same mechanics as Melee. It has implemented a bunch of stuff from brawl like glide tosses, rar, dacus, pivot grabs and glides, and has also come up with new mechanics like crawl tilts, air glide tosses, multi tap smashes, a third sort of tether recoveries, OHC, etc...
I mean they even put a flash on L cancel. If you need something that screams "we actually question the mechanics in Super Smash Bros Melee and believe they can be improved a whole lot", there ypu have it.

I'm not going to argue this anymore. It's not a discussion for this thread. If you would like to, I will happily flesh my ideas out over private message.

 

[Vashimus]

The buffed recoveries are what make P:M's edge game feel so exciting and dynamic to me. How I look at is, just like you're not going to block every mixup in 2D fighters, you're not gonna gimp every character everytime they're offstage in P:M. Eventually, you're gonna get opened up, or in P:M's case, the opponent comes back on stage and you have to knock them off again to get another chance. And that's fine. If you could gimp every character easily, Smash would boring and we all know it.

 

[NWRL]

To call melee, one of the most complex games ever, remarkably bland just shows how ignorant you are. You just lost all credibility in my book.



I was talking about mechanics, as long as p:m follows the same mechanics as melee it's a solid game, but once it adds in new mechanics in it doesn't even deserve the title project: melee.

Hey dingus, the M in Project M does NOT stand for Melee.

Your entire post is exactly why I've stopped playing Melee and why I refuse to allow anything but Brawl, PM and 64 at my fests and tournaments. Such a ****ing ignorant and toxic mindset it's not even funny.

Melee is bland. It will NEVER have hype moments like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq1ey4-ewyQ

Sorry bud.

 

[The_NZA]

THis topic changed courses. THere's a way to critique PM's recovery game without just saying "melee is the best" or "melee is the devil". Personally, on the merits of GAME DESIGN, I htink its bad when players can commit to multiple recovery options on a dime and make the counterplay impossible--luckily MOST PM recoveries aren't like this and can be punished once the metagame starts to evolve. SOME are still a little too non committal and versatile.

 

[fabulouspants]

LOL PM players holy crap. just read drinking food's and NWRL"s posts for the average PM fanboy. Cannot make a statement without throwing insults out left/right.

 

[NWRL]

LOL PM players holy crap. just read drinking food's and NWRL"s posts for the average PM fanboy. Cannot make a statement without throwing insults out left/right.

fite me irl. ill **** rek u

 

[D-idara]

I would like to hear the communities opinion on this. I played brawl and brawl + seriously up until around 2010, but from 2011 onward I've been strictly a Melee player. Anyway, coming from Melee, I find P:M to be a tad slower and the combos to be considerably easier to perform in comparison to Melee. However I dont consider this to be a detriment to the gAme as I understand P:M is not trying to be a melee clone. However, I find issue with many of the character recoveries. Not only are there more characters with incredible recovery options I in comparison to Melee, but by and large nearly any character can recover from any distance. Obviously edge hogging and guarding exist for this reason, but i feel this ease of recovering makes the game too easy and forces kills to more often be because of high percent rather than tactical gimps or fast play to cover your opponents options and keep them off stage.

I understand some players may prefer this, but coming from Melee I certainly dont. How does the dedicated P:M community feel about this?

Well, kills on Smash are supposed to be because of higher percents most of the time, I think the ledges on both Project M and Melee are way too unforgiving, they should buff the ledge-snap just a little bit to strike a middle ground between Melee's and Brawl's, and of course combos being easier to perform will always be something that makes it a better game. I think some recoveries suck mainly due to the fact that they didn't keep the ability to grab a ledge facing backwards, like Mario's on most stages that don't have a solid block below, like Final Destination, Mario's recovery would be amazing if you could grab ledges backwards on Project M.

 

[NWRL]

LOL PM players holy crap. just read drinking food's and NWRL"s posts for the average PM fanboy. Cannot make a statement without throwing insults out left/right.

What insults did I throw out?

Calling his mindset ignorant and toxic?

"If it's not in Melee it shouldn't be in PM"

That's pretty ignorant and toxic.

 

[Drodeka]

Not reading any of the thread, people arguing and what not, but I'll say this.

Yes.

 

[GP&B]

Well, kills on Smash are supposed to be because of higher percents most of the time, I think the ledges on both Project M and Melee are way too unforgiving, they should buff the ledge-snap just a little bit to strike a middle ground between Melee's and Brawl's, and of course combos being easier to perform will always be something that makes it a better game. I think some recoveries suck mainly due to the fact that they didn't keep the ability to grab a ledge facing backwards, like Mario's on most stages that don't have a solid block below, like Final Destination, Mario's recovery would be amazing if you could grab ledges backwards on Project M.

Grabbing the ledge backwards only works during the peak of a recovery move in Melee (which only worked for specific characters for reasons nobody can explain yet try to justify) and was changed in PM so that this is universal. Removing all-purpose backwards ledge grabbing makes edgeguarding attempts more committal and higher risk, which really doesn't feel like an issue given that easier ledges would possibly make weaker recoveries even worse than they already are.

And honestly, the only beef I had with Melee's ledges was how stupidly long ledge rolls occupied it (well, that and the backwards ledge grab inconsistency). It was completely mindless whereas PM hits a median where it's still more than doable yet requires a much greater deal of timing.

My opinion on the main question is no, character diversity has resulted in a higher variance of good and bad recoveries. Many of the Brawl newcomers' extremely powerful recovery options were significantly toned down or otherwise had their physique altered to make their offstage game much riskier or simply alter how they can edgeguard (ie. MK in the former, Pit in the latter). Recoveries have lots of options now, but not necessarily guarantees. Ike can mix up his Quick Draw in many different ways, but remains fairly predictable in its trajectory and is easily stoppable by some characters. That's how I feel about most of the cast. The most extreme examples are comparable to Jiggs and Peach and are hardly representative of what's dominating the meta right now.

 

[D-idara]

Grabbing the ledge backwards only works during the peak of a recovery move in Melee (which only worked for specific characters for reasons nobody can explain yet try to justify) and was changed in PM so that this is universal. Removing all-purpose backwards ledge grabbing makes edgeguarding attempts more committal and higher risk, which really doesn't feel like an issue given that easier ledges would possibly make weaker recoveries even worse than they already are.

And honestly, the only beef I had with Melee's ledges was how stupidly long ledge rolls occupied it (well, that and the backwards ledge grab inconsistency). It was completely mindless whereas PM hits a median where it's still more than doable yet requires a much greater deal of timing.

My opinion on the main question is no, character diversity has resulted in a higher variance of good and bad recoveries. Many of the Brawl newcomers' extremely powerful recovery options were significantly toned down or otherwise had their physique altered to make their offstage game much riskier or simply alter how they can edgeguard (ie. MK in the former, Pit in the latter). Recoveries have lots of options now, but not necessarily guarantees. Ike can mix up his Quick Draw in many different ways, but remains fairly predictable in its trajectory and is easily stoppable by some characters. That's how I feel about most of the cast. The most extreme examples are comparable to Jiggs and Peach and are hardly representative of what's dominating the meta right now.

I'll just say that it feels weird and unintuitive when you try to recover backwards and the character doesn't grab the ledge, maybe make it so that you have to be pressing the control stick towards said direction to make your character grab the ledge backwards?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'll just say that it feels weird and unintuitive when you try to recover backwards and the character doesn't grab the ledge, maybe make it so that you have to be pressing the control stick towards said direction to make your character grab the ledge backwards?

It feels unintuitive to you because of the Brawl background (I'm pretty sure).

Ledge snap and backwards grabbing would make getting to the ledge far, far too safe. Even I'm against this and I 100% believe P:M's existing recoveries are not too good.

 

[Saito]

They aren't too good.

But they are really good.

 

[Bleck]

oh **** I can't instagimp a character at 20% with Fox better complain about how OP it is that people can actually play the game for more than thirty seconds

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

oh **** I can't instagimp a character at 20% with Fox better complain about how OP it is that people can actually play the game for more than thirty seconds

Ladies and gentlemen, irony at its finest.

I, for one, welcome our new aerial overlords.

 

[Fortress]

That's not ironic.

 

[PastLink]

Its actually only ROB's recovery that bugs me. I know its cause it was good in Brawl, but.. It just has so much versatility to the point I roll my eyes every time I see him recover.

Also, just like I said they are mimicking Puff level recoveries. I also don't think it would hurt to Mimic Falco. Awesome stage game, terrible recovery? One or two more of those might not be bad to see. If he can do it. I am sure some others can, too.

Toon link's is that in a way, although he does have amazing recovery, it takes more timing and knowledge of the character. since it revolves around AGTing. so it hit's a medium i suppose. but you get the gist. one F*ck up and you miss the bomb jump pathetically. plus it's a pretty interceptable recovery with no walls to work off.

 

[Rᴏb]

The tethering mechanics are intentionally different.

Nah I don't think that's true.