Are recoveries in P:M too good?

[the_CAM_factor]

the entire game is putting out properly timed hitboxes with correct spacing and at the end of the day that is what edge gaurding is. i completly agree that edge guarding shoud take just as much skill as a succesful recovery but right now i just think that the recovery is better than the edge gaurd for a large number of chars.
I agree that snake is more vulnerable than alot of the cast (besides the attack out of his up b) but some chars do feel overpowered in thier ability to get back the stage.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Edgeguarding should be more than putting out hitboxes at the edge repeatedly. It should also require skill, timing

says an Ike player while he F-airs with one hand and holds the tissue with his other

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

says an Ike player while he F-airs with one hand and holds the tissue with his other

I lol'd, but fair is a once-only deal unless against super laggy recovery, in which case you MIGHT have a second shot by QDWJ'ing off the ledge. Missing a fair can result in you suddenly being in a very bad position, depending on the character you missed. Like Mewtwo, Pit, Zelda or another Ike, all of whom edgeguard Ike quite well.

Regardless Ike's fair is a better character than the entire rest of the cast suckas

 

[Bleck]

some chars do feel overpowered in thier ability to get back the stage.

The entire game is designed around hitting your opponents into the blast lines, not just off the stage. If you're gonna argue that characters shouldn't be able to recover, you might as well also argue that characters shouldn't be able to take damage, and subsequently that every character that doesn't have a fast, hard-hitting and low-angled attack is underpowered.

You may feel as though characters having reliable recoveries makes them too good, but the fact of the matter is that characters being able to stay alive for longer is healthy for the metagame. You and everyone else can state as much as they'd like that their opinion is that a gimp-heavy metagame is good, but I'm going to continue to chalk it up to frustration at no longer being able to reliably kill opponents in the lamest and most boring way possible.

 

[BILL?]

Also: on the subject of tethers, they are not broken. Lots of people just happen to be terrible at edgeguarding them.
Blame the undeveloped meta, not the character design lol.

The PM tether mechanics create some methods for effective gimping vs tether recoveries while giving options to create mixups to counter some of those gimps.
The basics:
• edgehogging a tether forces them onstage and then you can punish
• Also you can just hit them with a strong aerial while the tether is reeling in for a gimp.

 

[Cassio]

Recovering is definitely way to good. Its easier to reset to neutral in PM than it is in Brawl. That should say something.

 

[the_CAM_factor]

sees that user thinks edge gaurds and gimps are boring completley ignores user.
Being able to gimp is incredibley healthy for the meta game, it allows comebacks and forces one to play incredibley clean near the edge or else they could get a stock taken in the blink of an eye.

 

[Hashtag]

sees that user thinks edge gaurds and gimps are boring completley ignores user.
Being able to gimp is incredibley healthy for the meta game, it allows comebacks and forces one to play incredibley clean near the edge or else they could get a stock taken in the blink of an eye.

You can still gimp in PM. It just takes more effort and match up knowledge than most people are used to putting into edgeguarding.
Just In melee, characters' recoveries sucked except for a few (most were very, very free) and didn't have a good on stage presence either.

In pm, some characters still lack strong on stage/neutral presence but have good recoveries. This allows for more chances against better characters and evens out the playing field a bit in comparison to melee.

 

[D-idara]

im i the only one under the opinion that if you get knocked offstage you should either die or be heavily punished?

We might as well remove recovery moves then >:I

 

[the_CAM_factor]

the game is evolving and unlike melee has the ability to change through patches. i just see alotta chars that feel very safe when they are off stage and im not sure id like that to be the direction of this game.
it is my personal belief but i think it would lead to a higher skill cap, harder punishes and speeding up the pace of matches.

 

[The_NZA]

We might as well remove recovery moves then >:I

I mean, you put up the trollface but that pretty much completely encapsulates Bleck's previous argument.

He basically said If you are against characters having almost unpunishable recoveries, then "you might as well also argue that characters shouldn't be able to take damage, and subsequently that every character that doesn't have a fast, hard-hitting and low-angled attack is underpowered."

 

[D-idara]

I mean, you put up the trollface but that pretty much completely encapsulates Bleck's previous argument.

He basically said If you are against characters having almost unpunishable recoveries, then "you might as well also argue that characters shouldn't be able to take damage, and subsequently that every character that doesn't have a fast, hard-hitting and low-angled attack is underpowered."

No, it's just that you guys want all recoveries to be extremely risky because 'OMMG SKILLZ HIGH CEILING SUCH PRO TECHNICAL HYPE'.

 

[Hashtag]

I feel like edge-guarding itself should be a risky endeavor as well, to be completely honest. Maybe not as risky as recovering but definitely not free.

Edit: only recovery I feel are a bit difficult is ivy ' s and m2's. Even then, you have to figure out their options and try to cover as many as possible while being able to react to a few others. This can be considered skill.

 

[The_NZA]

No, it's just that you guys want all recoveries to be extremely risky because 'OMMG SKILLZ HIGH CEILING SUCH PRO TECHNICAL HYPE'.

No one is saying they should all be extremely risky. I don't think people want a return to more captain falcon recoveries. Really, I think only a few need to be curtailed a tiny bit.

 

[D-idara]

No one is saying they should all be extremely risky. I don't think people want a return to more captain falcon recoveries. Really, I think only a few need to be curtailed a tiny bit.

I'll only accept the nerfing of some recoveries if Pit gets a doesn't-suck-major-ass Up+B...I dunno, give him something from Uprising like the Spring Bomb, or the Angel Rocket...for example, Mario needs a buffed recovery and at least he and Luigi should be able to grab the ledge backwards, their recoveries would be perfect with Final Destination's layout if they could grab the ledge backwards.

 

[Blade-Fox]

I'll only accept the nerfing of some recoveries if Pit gets a doesn't-suck-major-*** Up+B...I dunno, give him something from Uprising like the Spring Bomb, or the Angel Rocket...for example, Mario needs a buffed recovery and at least he and Luigi should be able to grab the ledge backwards, their recoveries would be perfect with Final Destination's layout if they could grab the ledge backwards.

Mario doesn't need a buffed recovery. His fall speed, Down-B, Up-B Wall Jump, and Up-B give him plenty of options.

Pit's recovery looks fine to me. It's a lot more than what many other characters get.

Also, there's more stages in the game than Final Destination to consider with recoveries.

 

[The_NZA]

I'll only accept the nerfing of some recoveries if Pit gets a doesn't-suck-major-*** Up+B...I dunno, give him something from Uprising like the Spring Bomb, or the Angel Rocket...for example, Mario needs a buffed recovery and at least he and Luigi should be able to grab the ledge backwards, their recoveries would be perfect with Final Destination's layout if they could grab the ledge backwards.

Dude, I don't know what to tell you, but if anything Mario's ability to wall jump like he can out of upb gives him a top level recovery. I have a feeling the level of opponents you play and I play means our edge guard experiences are drastically different...like we might be practically playing different games.

 

[Soft Serve]

Recoveries in this game aren't even that much better than in Melee. In Melee, we just got lucky (unlucky?) with the fact that out of the 7 or so seriously viable characters, Shiek/Marth/Falcon had trash tier recoveries, Falco has a bad distance but tons of options, and fox/peach/jiggs are really good. People learned how to make the most out of the bad recoveries (see good marth recoveries, that **** has been optimized for YEARS) but that doesn't stop them from being bad or punishable or just short.

Most recoveries that go very far distances are either slow and punishable while traveling (Diddy's up-b) or have tons of landing lag (DDD is a good example). Tethers are different in that while they are relatively safe once they reach the ledge, most characters path to the ledge is incredible telegraphed.

I think PM's recovery game is fine.

 

[shairn]

DDD has no landing lag if he cancels his upB before landing, plus he can use that to sweetspot the ledge quickly.
Also, with some tethers reaching horizontally to vertically, I don't think they're particularly telegraphed.

To be honest, the only recoveries that frustrate me are Pit and Rob. Both go very far horizontally or vertically and can attack out of recovery (Pit while in side B) to make edgeguarding much harder. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Pit's upB reflects attacks the same way his downB does. Rob meteor-canceling is the most frustrating thing ever. Thankfully, he only regains one boost when hit out of his recovery.

 

[The_NZA]

DDD has no landing lag if he cancels his upB before landing, plus he can use that to sweetspot the ledge quickly.
Also, with some tethers reaching horizontally to vertically, I don't think they're particularly telegraphed.

To be honest, the only recoveries that frustrate me are Pit and Rob. Both go very far horizontally or vertically and can attack out of recovery (Pit while in side B) to make edgeguarding much harder. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Pit's upB reflects attacks the same way his downB does. Rob meteor-canceling is the most frustrating thing ever. Thankfully, he only regains one boost when hit out of his recovery.

DDD is by far not one of the more problematic recoveries. He is always a giant hurtbox and is pretty vulnerable if he chooses to upb. His aerial waddletosses though are another story.

 

[shairn]

I know he's easy to hit, I was just pointing out the fact his recovery is not completely trash.

 

[9bit]

DDD does have landing lag if he cancels his up-B, just not as much as if he doesn't.

 

[Yurya]

I can't believe no one has talked about Ivysaur's recovery yet.

But in general the recoveries that bother me are the ones that don't renew at all when they are intercepted yet are near broken before hand (R.O.B. and especially Yoshi).

 

[PastLink]

I can't believe no one has talked about Ivysaur's recovery yet.

But in general the recoveries that bother me are the ones that don't renew at all when they are intercepted yet are near broken before hand (R.O.B. and especially Yoshi).

Ivy's is pretty managable, she has the longest tether in the game, but if she has to recover horizontally she's a sitting duck until she positions herself to tether properly.

 

[Yurya]

Ivy's is pretty managable, she has the longest tether in the game, but if she has to recover horizontally she's a sitting duck until she positions herself to tether properly.

She is floaty enough she can attack back, in fact she should just recover backwards and bair anyone trying to come out at her.

 

[PastLink]

She is floaty enough she can attack back, in fact she should just recover backwards and bair anyone trying to come out at her.

hm, i'm not gonna lie that bair coverage is a hard thing to argue against. but making her whiff and smacking her further out probably isn't as daunting as it seems.

 

[The_NZA]

hm, i'm not gonna lie that bair coverage is a hard thing to argue against. but making her whiff and smacking her further out probably isn't as daunting as it seems.

Also, what can she do when you do the tether thing you can do with everyone (grab the edge and just do a ledge hop aerial or a ledge jump aerial after forcing the ivy to jump).

 

[Spralwers]

I can't believe no one has talked about Ivysaur's recovery yet.

That's because Ivy only has a tether as her up B, which makes her recovery garbage to any character with decent options out of ledge hop. Check this match out and see how Roy takes pretty much every edge guard as an opportunity to either kill or deal a ton of damage on Ivy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLqp2KQ7hRY

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

That's because Ivy only has a tether as her up B, which makes her recovery garbage to any character with decent options out of ledge hop. Check this match out and see how Roy takes pretty much every edge guard as an opportunity to either kill or deal a ton of damage on Ivy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLqp2KQ7hRY

And prior to this match, Zach/Lunchables was able to mess Ivy up real fierce with his Roy as well.

 

[DrinkingFood]

DDD has no landing lag if he cancels his upB before landing, plus he can use that to sweetspot the ledge quickly.
Also, with some tethers reaching horizontally to vertically, I don't think they're particularly telegraphed.

To be honest, the only recoveries that frustrate me are Pit and Rob. Both go very far horizontally or vertically and can attack out of recovery (Pit while in side B) to make edgeguarding much harder. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Pit's upB reflects attacks the same way his downB does. Rob meteor-canceling is the most frustrating thing ever. Thankfully, he only regains one boost when hit out of his recovery.

ROB doesn't regain any boosts if hit out of his recovery.
Source: I'm a ROB main
Pit's Up-b does not reflect attacks. It just has large strong hitboxes that eat other attacks.
DDD still has plenty of landing lag if he cancels his up-b. It's a lot less, but it's not unpunishable.

 

[ThreeSided]

Having a bad recovery is a weakness like any other. Being light, having bad normals, having little range, dealing little damage, they're all things that can be bad about a character which justify making other things about them better. The issue here is that while there are certainly characters who have bad of all these other things, there are very few which have bad recoveries. Gimping, edge guarding, and taking advantage of bad recoveries in a match up, these are all important dynamics of the game that are not being developed well enough in this way in my opinion. It's like having everyone in the game be at least as heavy as Sheik and then saying that characters aren't too heavy - even if you justify that not too many characters have ridiculously high weights, you can't say that not enough have low weights. If captain falcon can do well and have a bad recovery in melee, then there's no reason it can't be done with other characters in PM.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

As a whole, no I don't think they're necessarily too good, but there are a couple characters that have questionable ones. The biggest offender in my mind is mario. With the ease of up b wall jump and 8 frames less on cooldown on fireballs, the chances of a good mario getting gimped are really low. Honestly your time is better spent, as the edge guarder, just taunt canceling as much as possible lol.