Are recoveries in P:M too good?

[GP&B]

IIRC, PMBR would like to revert to Melee's if ever possible but chose to allow tethers to grab occupied ledges to make them less awful than they used to be for now.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yes.

No.

 

[D-idara]

Hmm...I don't think backwards ledge-grabbing would make ledges too safe, it'd open possibilities for lower airgame.

And I personally think that ledge sweetspots are way too unforgiving, a middle ground between Braw's stupidly long distance and Melee's stupidly short distance would benefit the game greatly, because there are situations when you really shouldn't miss the leg and you do.

I think gimping people should be much harder than actually racking up damage and then launching, to discourage low% techniques.

I also think they absolutely butchered Pit's recovery. I mean, really? Why do Snake and ROB get to keep their good Brawl Recoveries (ROB's even better) and Pit gets stuck with a shield that raises him two inches and a side-B that I still can't figure out how to use.

 

[The_NZA]

oh **** I can't instagimp a character at 20% with Fox better complain about how OP it is that people can actually play the game for more than thirty seconds

Stop hurting my brain/not adding to the conversation. It is true that this game has strong recoveries all around. You don't have to be a fox player to be critical of that design choice and you setting up that strawman reflects poorly on you.

 

[DrinkingFood]

And I personally think that ledge sweetspots are way too unforgiving, a middle ground between Braw's stupidly long distance and Melee's stupidly short distance would benefit the game greatly, because there are situations when you really shouldn't miss the leg and you do.

That's already how it is.
There aren't any situations when you really shouldn't miss the ledge and you do. Unless you're holding down. Or not facing the ledge.
There are more situations, in fact, when you should miss the ledge and don't. Most characters now seem to be able to sweetspot below onstage edgeguard reach, even against some of the most ridiculous dtilts and dsmashes.

 

[Blade-Fox]

Recoveries feel fine to me. Seems like Brawl characters have strong recoveries and most Melee characters have generally average - terrible recoveries which is sort of what I expected when I think of combining aspects from all 3 games. There aren't really any that don't feel like you can not manage them by reading the player and intercepting them when they come back. Feels more rewarding and challenging than, "Lolz just grab ledge." Especially since you have to sweetspot the ledge again and can't grab it backwards.

 

[SwonK]

I just want to ask everyone to take a balanced view on the subject. If some characters have great recovery after generally far from the stage, take them to a counterpick map. Take a character with a great recovery, throw them on Yoshi's story or Warioware. Their recovery doesn't mean much when the ceiling and side walls are so close to the stage that almost every character has setups that can get kills at 60-70%. There are more things to take into consideration than the distance or safety of a recovery.

I feel like since Project M is still relatively new, these things can be frustrating. I think as more players understand each matchup more and more, they can subconsciously consider their opponents recovery options, consider their offstage/edge-guarding options, and make the correct decision.

Take Link for example. If you take him somewhere relatively large such as Final Destination, his heavy weight causes him to not die at such early percents. He can then use his Up-B and bomb recovery to get to the stage pretty safely from very far. He's at 150%, and you're salty because he makes it back. Solution? Counter-pick him somewhere small. Warioware will give him limited space to control the stage with projectiles, and the walls are so close he won't have a great recovery option and can be killed at pretty early percents. This is just one example with one character(that I play against regularly), but you can see the logical standpoint I'm coming from.

No characters recovery is perfect or completely safe. Develop your intuition, learn the matchups, and understand the best options for battle. If a character's recovery is very horizontal such as Donkey Kong, try to get him under the stage. If a character has a tether such as Lucas, Link or Samus, they are exposed in that time between they tether the edge and their invincibility frames kick in, capitalize on that. It's just a matter of learning the matchups and stage options.

 

[The_NZA]

I just want to ask everyone to take a balanced view on the subject. If some characters have great recovery after generally far from the stage, take them to a counterpick map. Take a character with a great recovery, throw them on Yoshi's story or Warioware. Their recovery doesn't mean much when the ceiling and side walls are so close to the stage that almost every character has setups that can get kills at 60-70%. There are more things to take into consideration than the distance or safety of a recovery.

I feel like since Project M is still relatively new, these things can be frustrating. I think as more players understand each matchup more and more, they can subconsciously consider their opponents recovery options, consider their offstage/edge-guarding options, and make the correct decision.

Take Link for example. If you take him somewhere relatively large such as Final Destination, his heavy weight causes him to not die at such early percents. He can then use his Up-B and bomb recovery to get to the stage pretty safely from very far. He's at 150%, and you're salty because he makes it back. Solution? Counter-pick him somewhere small. Warioware will give him limited space to control the stage with projectiles, and the walls are so close he won't have a great recovery option and can be killed at pretty early percents. This is just one example with one character(that I play against regularly), but you can see the logical standpoint I'm coming from.

No characters recovery is perfect or completely safe. Develop your intuition, learn the matchups, and understand the best options for battle. If a character's recovery is very horizontal such as Donkey Kong, try to get him under the stage. If a character has a tether such as Lucas, Link or Samus, they are exposed in that time between they tether the edge and their invincibility frames kick in, capitalize on that. It's just a matter of learning the matchups and stage options.

One issue I have is when tether characters can tether hte ledge and let go without actually going to the ledge. That kind of a mindgame is so non-committal and essentially brings the ledge ot the tethering character.

 

[SwonK]

One issue I have is when tether characters can tether hte ledge and let go without actually going to the ledge. That kind of a mindgame is so non-committal and essentially brings the ledge ot the tethering character.

I'm not positive on this so don't take this as fact, but I vaguely remember someone somewhere saying you can only tether like that 3 times before you are forced to hang on the ledge? It's all hearsay from my end though haha. Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that you have to consider the situation in totality to make a good decision, whether that be a stage pick, stage ban, character choice, approach options, kill options and edge guarding opportunities

 

[The_NZA]

I'm not positive on this so don't take this as fact, but I vaguely remember someone somewhere saying you can only tether like that 3 times before you are forced to hang on the ledge? It's all hearsay from my end though haha. Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that you have to consider the situation in totality to make a good decision, whether that be a stage pick, stage ban, character choice, approach options, kill options and edge guarding opportunities

I don't think the 3 tether limit is a significant check on this type of behavior. 3 tether makes sense because it prevents people from tether camping their invinicibility frames. But It doesn't pose that large a problem from a Link player, for example, who will hookshot and then let go when he sees you are about to grab the ledge and force him into a Ledgehop.

 

[krazyzyko]

Stage control did not really get better, it only got more diverse. Ivy, snake, and ROB do not have better stage control the Melee characters. Stage control isn't just a matter of leaving hitboxes around the stage, it's a matter of how much space you take up that your opponent can't be simulatenously in and still be able to react to your actions in that area. Fox controls the area of the stage that he dash dances in without throwing any hitboxes out, because the opponent knows that if they move into that area, the open themselves up for a drill->shine or nair->shine or up-smash (at high percents) or even just a grab. Ivy/Snake/ROB may be able to control parts of the stage with projectiles and threatening items, but they all lack any kind of speed or quick high priority aerials (sans ivy's bair which wins based not on hitbox duration or strength but on pure reach) to discourage the opponent from coming close before they can set up their stage controlling projectiles.

Sonic's the name and stage control is his game.

 

[GP&B]

I also think they absolutely butchered Pit's recovery. I mean, really? Why do Snake and ROB get to keep their good Brawl Recoveries (ROB's even better) and Pit gets stuck with a shield that raises him two inches and a side-B that I still can't figure out how to use.

Snake falls a lot faster which has a pretty significant effect on his overall effective recovery distance, meaning getting swatted out of his recovery can easily lead to KOs or very terrible aerial positioning that you're forced to recover from. And ROB's is even better? I'm not really following here, it's not that difficult to catch and unlike his very lengthy booster in Brawl, he only has three boosts before reaching the ledge and he's done.

And the bolded would be a big part of your problem then. Based off watching Armada's Pit, he's a very horizontal aerial fighter now. He's not supposed to be able to survive from falling near the corners; he goes out to the edges of the stage boundaries when chasing his opponent and then glides back to stage. His Brawl Up B was incredibly powerful and unlike ROB, he actually could use it again after getting hit making it more than unreasonable to gimp him, especially in a Melee-like environment. EDIT: I'm dumb, read past that. The command glide grants him a fairly strong recovery tool, but like with a lot of strong recoveries in PM they're not so crazy free at getting back to the stage.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Brawl Pit actually didn't get his up-b refreshed when hit.

also @ D-idara , ROB's recovery is definitely not better than in brawl, lol
Each time he uses one he sacrifices a third of his recovery, brawl ROB had a much easier time getting distance without using so much of his "fuel" so if he got hit while offstage, even though he didn't get anything back, he wasn't sacrificing at least a third of his potential distance to get back. Not to mention, he could do aerials at any time during his ascent to protect himself, vs PM where doing aerials early during a boost to protect yourself can cost you some of the distance the boost give you.

 

[D-idara]

Brawl Pit actually didn't get his up-b refreshed when hit.

also @ D-idara , ROB's recovery is definitely not better than in brawl, lol
Each time he uses one he sacrifices a third of his recovery, brawl ROB had a much easier time getting distance without using so much of his "fuel" so if he got hit while offstage, even though he didn't get anything back, he wasn't sacrificing at least a third of his potential distance to get back. Not to mention, he could do aerials at any time during his ascent to protect himself, vs PM where doing aerials early during a boost to protect yourself can cost you some of the distance the boost give you.

I personally think that the directional boosts make ROB's recovery much more unpredictable, and the fact that he gains momentum from the boost just makes his out-of-boost attacks much more dangerous, also, it's now a tool that be used both for recovery and for standard battles...I dunno, I just think it's better...and Pit should at least get a more decent Up+B than that, I mean, come on, really? I think even Link reaches higher than that lousy child, not to mention that the Power of Flight is extremely iconic to the character.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

I personally think that the directional boosts make ROB's recovery much more unpredictable, and the fact that he gains momentum from the boost just makes his out-of-boost attacks much more dangerous, also, it's now a tool that be used both for recovery and for standard battles...I dunno, I just think it's better...and Pit should at least get a more decent Up+B than that, I mean, come on, really? I think even Link reaches higher than that lousy child, not to mention that the Power of Flight is extremely iconic to the character.

Pit only being able to glide with his wings is actually more in character than his original up-B from Brawl. He's supposed to be an angel that can't fly on his own, after all.

 

[D-idara]

Pit only being able to glide with his wings is actually more in character than his original up-B from Brawl. He's supposed to be an angel that can't fly on his own, after all.

You apparently didn't play Uprising...the blue glow that appears around his wings on Brawl is called the Power of Flight, it's granted to him by Palutena and it lets him fly temporarily.

 

[DrinkingFood]

yeah that's his side-b now
what's so hard to get about that?

 

[Paradoxium]

You apparently didn't play Uprising...the blue glow that appears around his wings on Brawl is called the Power of Flight, it's granted to him by Palutena and it lets him fly temporarily.

You shouldn't be surprised that he hasn't played Uprising, that game is ****

 

[D-idara]

You shouldn't be surprised that he hasn't played Uprising, that game is ****

There must be a smudge on my screen, for a second there I thought I saw a clueless little piece of crap calling Kid Icarus: Uprising something other than absolutely amazing.

 

[Burning Boom]

You apparently didn't play Uprising...the blue glow that appears around his wings on Brawl is called the Power of Flight, it's granted to him by Palutena and it lets him fly temporarily.

If we want to start getting into that though, it would lore-wise be limited to 5 minutes per match, which would be stupid. Also, considering Palutena is his final Smash, it wouldn't make sense for her power to be part of his regular moveset. Now to the next order of business...

that game is the ****

fixed.

 

[Paradoxium]

There must be a smudge on my screen, for a second there I thought I saw a clueless little piece of crap calling Kid Icarus: Uprising something other than absolutely amazing.

Annoying dialogue, Terrible controls, stupid enemy's, yep that pretty much sums it up.

Kingdom Hearts Dream Drop Distance was a million times better

 

[Saito]

You shouldn't be surprised that he hasn't played Uprising, that game is ****

he hasn't played Uprising, that game is ****

that game is ****

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

You apparently didn't play Uprising...the blue glow that appears around his wings on Brawl is called the Power of Flight, it's granted to him by Palutena and it lets him fly temporarily.

I've played Uprising and while it was granted by Palutena, it still means he can't fly whenever he wants i.e. on command. Only Palutena could decide whenever you flew in that game--it was on rails anyway, remember?

There's also Brawl Pit (the basis for Project M Pit) being made before Uprising was even a thing.

EDIT: and no, Uprising is not in any way a terrible game, people. What we're supposed to be discussing is if recoveries are too good. IMHO Pit's isn't.

 

[Burning Boom]

Funny dialogue, precise controls (that require you to not be a wuss (can't believe I'm trowing around that term on a video game forum), stupid enemy's, yep that's a very narrow, generalized look at the game.

Kingdom Hearts Dream Drop Distance existed for some reason.

Fixed again

 

[D-idara]

Annoying dialogue, Terrible controls, stupid enemy's, yep that pretty much sums it up.

Kingdom Hearts Dream Drop Distance was a million times better

FUNNY dialogue, AMAZING non-standard controls (Because remember kids! Every non-standard control scheme is a gimmick!) that offer precision and movement options, the introduction of one of the most-loved Nintendo villains and three widely-different, interesting enemy factions with their own traits, Demons, Plants and Aliens. You're full of ****.

 

[Saito]

Dream drop distance was a good game too.

But Kid Icarus was not a bad game at all unless you're an edgemaster who only wants games with a #CrawlingInMySkin plot. Probably one of the few games to do some good humor and conversation while still going into a little bit between the relationship between gods and humans.

The enemies are witty. Not stupid at all.

Controls are lackluster. Stylus play isn't for everyone, but for those who are good at it, the game feels right at home. I personally ended up controlling the reticule with ABXY.

 

[Paradoxium]

FUNNY dialogue, AMAZING non-standard controls (Because remember kids! Every non-standard control scheme is a gimmick!) that offer precision and movement options, the introduction of one of the most-loved Nintendo villains and three widely-different, interesting enemy factions with their own traits, Demons, Plants and Aliens. You're full of ****.

If you thought the dialogue was funny than you must not know what good comedy is. I mean, occasionally it was funny, but usually the jokes were lame, and to make matters worse they talked FOREVER. They would never shut up. Even during the final fight they are cracking stupid jokes, completely removing the pressure

And controls that offer precision and movement? Please stop being such a fanboy. After about 10 minutes you already start getting hand aches, there is no comfortable way to hold your 3ds with that ****ty button scheme. It only allowed precision in aiming, but precision isn't even required due to how clunky the attacking system was. And your movement on ground also lacked control

And interesting enemy's? Barely any of them required a certain strategy to defeat, they lacked depth. It was the same **** for like every enemy, dodge and shoot, dodge and shoot.

I played this and Kingdom Hearts at the same time, and I felt Kh beat Kid Icarus in every way

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

If you thought the dialogue was funny than you must not know what good comedy is. I mean, occasionally it was funny, but usually the jokes were lame, and to make matters worse they talked FOREVER. They would never shut up. Even during the final fight they are cracking stupid jokes, completely removing the pressure

And controls that offer precision and movement? Please stop being such a fanboy. After about 10 minutes you already start getting hand aches, there is no comfortable way to hold your 3ds with that ****ty button scheme. It only allowed precision in aiming, but precision isn't even required due to how clunky the attacking system was. And your movement on ground also lacked control

And interesting enemy's? Barely any of them required a certain strategy to defeat, they lacked depth. It was the same **** for like every enemy, dodge and shoot, dodge and shoot.

I played this and Kingdom Hearts at the same time, and I felt Kh beat Kid Icarus in every way

Well, it's not a bad game, it's just not for everyone.

Though hey, back on topic guys.

 

[Paradoxium]

Well, it's not a bad game, it's just not for everyone.

Though hey, back on topic guys.

Ok admittedly I don't think it's awful, I had fun playing it. But I don't think it's that good, just decent, It has very obvious flaws

 

[Burning Boom]

If you thought the dialogue was funny than you must not know what good comedy is. I mean, occasionally it was funny, but usually the jokes were lame, and to make matters worse they talked FOREVER. They would never shut up. Even during the final fight they are cracking stupid jokes, completely removing the pressure

And controls that offer precision and movement? Please stop being such a fanboy. After about 10 minutes you already start getting hand aches, there is no comfortable way to hold your 3ds with that ****ty button scheme. It only allowed precision in aiming, but precision isn't even required due to how clunky the attacking system was. And your movement on ground also lacked control

And interesting enemy's? Barely any of them required a certain strategy to defeat, they lacked depth. It was the same **** for like every enemy, dodge and shoot, dodge and shoot.

I played this and Kingdom Hearts at the same time, and I felt Kh beat Kid Icarus in every way

Comedy is something that can't be argued much, but I can say that half the time the lameness was ironic.

Stylus in right hand held with index, ring finger, and thumb, right pinkie supporting system, the rest should be obvious, and I played with the Niko Charge Pack, which nearly doubles the size of the system. So yeah.....

Also, the ground movement was responsive, and you had complete control over the camera and character, so I have no explanation for this other than you sucked (might have something to do with how uncomfortable you claim to have been).

I don't get the enemy thing. Nearly every enemy had something unique: There was the enemy that made you look at it, there was the enemy that fired a rotating beam, there was the enemy that put up a magic barrier, there was the insta-kill enemy, enemy variety is one thing the game certainly did not lack, although there were a lot of re-skins.

Now you have a comprehensive guide on Kid Icarus: Uprising, I am glad to have enlightened you today.

 

[turtletank]

Back on topic plz guys.

 

[Burning Boom]

You're right, you're right, although I had more Sandow gifs...
Anyway, I feel that all of the recoveries are defenitley gimpable, and being offstage is still a disadvantageous position, however there is now a lot more depth nuance, and difficulty to edgeguarding and general offstage play, and that's a good thing, even if it might make moving from Melee to PM a bit more alienating.

 

[wiiztec]

I also think they absolutely butchered Pit's recovery. I mean, really? Why do Snake and ROB get to keep their good Brawl Recoveries (ROB's even better) and Pit gets stuck with a shield that raises him two inches and a side-B that I still can't figure out how to use.

Snake's cypher is shorter in duration, and ROB's three boosts is definitely a nerf from his brawl recovery, as for Pit unlike Snake & ROB he had multiple mid air jumps in addition to a brawl up B comparable to ROB's, so I think the comparably more severe nerfing was justified, and new side b is just his brawl glide, what's so hard to figure out?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

>Looks at thread name
:o
-_-
Have you seen MEWFREAKINGTWO!?
There are other recoveries that are just to good as well, but his is the most free, in all the land of ooo, I ain't neva seen something so free.

 

[Bleck]

You shouldn't be surprised that he hasn't played Uprising, that game is ****. Kingdom Hearts Dream Drop Distance was a million times better

Get out.

Stop hurting my brain/not adding to the conversation. It is true that this game has strong recoveries all around. You don't have to be a fox player to be critical of that design choice and you setting up that strawman reflects poorly on you.

Want me to really hurt your brain? Accusing someone's argument of being a strawman argument is a strawman argument.

More pertinently, arguing in favor of recoveries being less good is essentially arguing in favor of recoveries that are more predictable or short-ranged, which directly supports a meta-game that supports characters with gimp heavy routines. You don't literally have to be a Fox player to want worse recoveries, that's true - but to pretend that arguing in favor of characters having less good recoveries is not the same as arguing in favor of characters having less good recoveries is folly.

 

[PastLink]

Can't we all just agree that despite Project M's recoveries being better over all throughout the cast than melee's and worse than Brawl's ungimpableness (I don't even wat) that the important thing is that the game's recoveries are diverse and some god forbid are interesting to play around? there's nothing wrong with a good solid recovery like marth's or squirtle's. but having most recoveries in game like that would make it stale, and make off stage interactions short depending on the characters. (and the offstage battles are some of the funnest to watch and play)

 

[fabulouspants]

kid icarus sucks cause im a lefty aha. **** game.

 

[Brim]

Lol no. They're just more versatile - honestly I think more of the OP recoveries came from Brawl like ROB's original and Pit's.
--
In fact the two I listed actually make great examples of recoveries that weren't exactly buffed (Pit's was pretty nerfed though) but they are a lot more useful now in my opinion. I don't think I need to explain why.
--
Truth be told though some still aren't that great, like my boy Roy's recovery. He just can't get back on the stage very easily.

 

[the_CAM_factor]

im i the only one under the opinion that if you get knocked offstage you should either die or be heavily punished?
i feel like most brawl-esque chars are too strong in their recoveries and require a slight nerf.
recovery should be hard, and require skill to sweetspot.
also i think tethers rlly need to be worked out better =[

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

im i the only one under the opinion that if you get knocked offstage you should either die or be heavily punished?

No, and that's exactly what happens in P:M. No recovery is brain-dead, and the simple lack of mobility and options means you're getting gimped or plain eating a lot percent while coming back. Look at Snake's telegraphed "Hit Me Now" recovery.

There's also a converse to your statement: Edgeguarding should be more than putting out hitboxes at the edge repeatedly. It should also require skill, timing and yes, risk. P:M pretty much nails this.