Are players who use low tiers better & smarter than players who use mid tier +?

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm going to say no. Low Tier characters typically have three or less options that they can use in any particular match up. This means that there's little thought that goes through the head of the player, since he already knows what moves that he has to use. However, a character such as Meta Knight has countless moves that are good in every situation, but only one correct choice for a great move in each of those situations.

For example: MK has an opponent 45 degrees above him, he's on the ground. MK can do:
1) Shuttle Loop.
2) Up Tilt.
3) Up Smash.
4) Short hop Uair.
5) Short hop Nair.
6) Full hop Dair.
7) Short up Fair.
8) Tornado.
9) Shield.
10) Spot dodge.
11) Roll.
12) Wait -> Down Smash.
13) Wait -> Forward smash.
14) Wait -> F-Tilt
Etc.

Now with Metaknight, pending on which option you pick greatly impacts everything in that match. Though all of those options would net damage, only one would be perfect in that situation which would set up consistent levels of damage strings. While other options push your opponent out of your range and reset the positioning as neutral for both characters. This process is what separates Great MKs from the average ilk. Low Tier characters do not have this level of thought involved during every instance of the game. They typically only have five [or fewer] options at any point.

 

[swordgard]

Lol shadowlink.


Ics are worth playing, they have no impossible matchup.

 

[Kaffei]

No. If you're playing to win, why would you pick a character that requires more work + less options?
Besides, you can't really fit all people into specific intelligence groups based on what character they pick -_-
That's just silly.

 

[00000]

Low Tier characters typically have three or less options that they can use in any particular match up.

Now wait just one **** second...


Really? Name just one character that has 3 or less viable options.


I don't understand why everyone here equates lower tier to fewer options. A character that has only one move that automatically takes out three stocks would have only one option, yet be at the top of the tier list. On the other hand, another character that has a million different moves, each of which are only marginally useful, will be lower, despite having a million times as many options.

 

[Phir3]

No, if the high tier mains (I'm talking about top professionals such as M2K and Ally) started maining low tiers, they would be some of the best, if not the best low tier players IMO. They are the best players for a reason.

 

[Pete278]

No, if the high tier mains (I'm talking about top professionals such as M2K and Ally) started maining low tiers, they would be some of the best, if not the best low tier players IMO. They are the best players for a reason.

I don't think anyone's doubting M2k and Ally are good. Hell, Ally wins all the Low Tier tournaments with Falcon, he's got a pretty **** good Falcon. I think the thread is more about people who are on roughly equal placing ground. If a high tier main places the same as a low tier main, is the low tier main better?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lol shadowlink.


Ics are worth playing, they have no impossible matchup.

Snake isn't an impossible but is still a disadvantage to IC, I think he is their hardest MU.

 

[Red Arremer]

If a high tier main places the same as a low tier main, is the low tier main better?

Not necessarily. If the Low Tier player faced less skilled players than the High Tier player, it proves pretty much nothing.

Also, keep in mind that the performance of players varies, as well. Only if the Low Tier player beats all the same players the High Tier player beat, we can at least say that they are equally good. If the Low Tier player beats the High Tier player, chances are that the Low Tier player is more skillful than the High Tier player.

 

[Ganonsburg]

Now wait just one **** second...


Really? Name just one character that has 3 or less viable options.

All of low tier. That's why they're low tier. By definition.

Most/all low tier characters have predictable recoveries. Their recoveries are predictable because they lack viable recovery options. Sure, top tiers may or may not always have better recoveries, but they also have other options on stage that keep them there.


Low tier characters generally lack speed (not running speed, but attack speed). You lose options if you can't attack because everyone else has a move that will stop yours on reaction.


Many of these characters also lack any way of pressuring their enemies effectively. I'd go into detail, but I've got to go.

 

[Phir3]

I don't think anyone's doubting M2k and Ally are good. Hell, Ally wins all the Low Tier tournaments with Falcon, he's got a pretty **** good Falcon. I think the thread is more about people who are on roughly equal placing ground. If a high tier main places the same as a low tier main, is the low tier main better?

Not really. Now if the low tier mainer can consistently beat the high tier mainer, and everyone else.......

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

All of low tier. That's why they're low tier. By definition.

Most/all low tier characters have predictable recoveries. Their recoveries are predictable because they lack viable recovery options. Sure, top tiers may or may not always have better recoveries, but they also have other options on stage that keep them there.


Low tier characters generally lack speed (not running speed, but attack speed). You lose options if you can't attack because everyone else has a move that will stop yours on reaction.


Many of these characters also lack any way of pressuring their enemies effectively. I'd go into detail, but I've got to go.

It's a multitude of reasons why they are low tier, people need to stop trying to generalizing why they are or I have to keep bringing up exceptions like,

 

[00000]

All of low tier. That's why they're low tier. By definition.


Most/all low tier characters have predictable recoveries. Their recoveries are predictable because they lack viable recovery options. Sure, top tiers may or may not always have better recoveries, but they also have other options on stage that keep them there.


Low tier characters generally lack speed (not running speed, but attack speed). You lose options if you can't attack because everyone else has a move that will stop yours on reaction.


Many of these characters also lack any way of pressuring their enemies effectively. I'd go into detail, but I've got to go.

Name some low tier characters, then list all of those character's viable options. If any of those lists contain less than three, and if your list is correct, then you are correct. Your sweeping generalizations neither prove your point nor disprove mine.

 

[DoonKoon]

Pro =/= How good they seem. Pro isn't pulling out random wins against decent people or taking actual pros to last stock. Pro is actually winning. And travelling and winning. No ganon is or ever could be pro (in brawl lool kage<3). He's an absolutely horrible character with zero potential for winning anything.

And if you don't believe me, why not try consulting his amazing matchup chart

Oh the joy of "0-100" and "5-95 matchups against the good characters and "15-85" against crap characters like samus. Ganon can't win therefore Ganon can't be pro.

THAT IS THE END OF IT

@ juan XD :D

But, there are about 2 to 3 Ganon's who actually DO win. And, you're just proving the point I'm making, look at how terrible those match-ups are, and then look at the amount of Ganons we have winning/placing high in tournaments. Doesn't that say something? Yes, it does. - That it's not easy to win with Ganon, or any other low tier for this matter, which is why we only have a couple of good ones. And, I personally believe that pro Ganons, more than any other low tier character, hold more potential than the top 10 players in the world atm.

@Joel: And that's what tournaments prove, eliminating the weaker players for the better but at that same time, low tiers take more work to win than high.

 

[Red Arremer]

@Joe:

JoeL. It's Joel for God's sake, are you blind? >_<

 

[DoonKoon]

I'll edit that if it really matters all that much to you.

 

[Red Arremer]

I told you once already.

 

[DoonKoon]

I must've missed it.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

But, there are about 2 to 3 Ganon's who actually DO win. And, you're just proving the point I'm making, look at how terrible those match-ups are, and then look at the amount of Ganons we have winning/placing high in tournaments. Doesn't that say something? Yes, it does. - That it's not easy to win with Ganon, or any other low tier for this matter, which is why we only have a couple of good ones. And, I personally believe that pro Ganons, more than any other low tier character, hold more potential than the top 10 players in the world atm.

LOL you sound so stupid. You are saying that because they use the worst character in the entire game, they are the best players in the world. Why not take some results of some recent majors and see how many ganons show up in the top 8. thats right. ZERO. (im so confident I'm not even going to look it up. try to disprove me). Ganon is not a good character, and no one who uses ganon will ever EVER win.

EDIT: And most the time the only reason low tiers do okay against people is because the character is so uncommon that the person has 0 matchup exp.

 

[.Marik]

LOL you sound so stupid. You are saying that because they use the worst character in the entire game, they are the best players in the world. Why not take some results of some recent majors and see how many ganons show up in the top 8. thats right. ZERO. (im so confident I'm not even going to look it up. try to disprove me). Ganon is not a good character, and no one who uses ganon will ever EVER win.

Lay off the elitist attitude, will you?

Ray Kalm placed 7th out of 32nd at School>Bawrl, a tournament that took place November 2009.

It was a regional, not a national, but the GtaN community has a very skilled community, and it takes lots of work for an abysmal character such as Ganondorf to make it past first brackets, let alone placing 7th.

As I said before, it has to do more with players than characters when it comes to individual understanding and there are exceptions, even though the general analysis may ring true.

However, the characters do hinder the players, even though they may be national-class level, like Xyro or Bwett. They are lower tier'd for a reason, and that's the gist of it.

Be a leader, the arrogant manner which you present yourself does not help.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

Lay off the elitist attitude, will you?

Ray Kalm placed 7th out of 32nd at School>Bawrl, a tournament that took place November 2009.

It was a regional, not a national, but the GtaN community has a very skilled community, and it takes lots of work for an abysmal character such as Ganondorf to make it past first brackets, let alone placing 7th.

As I said before, it has to do more with players than characters when it comes to individual understanding and there are exceptions, even though the general analysis may ring true.

However, the characters do hinder the players, even though they may be national-class level, like Xyro or Bwett. They are lower tier'd for a reason, and that's the gist of it.

Be a leader, the arrogant manner which you present yourself does not help.

-_-. Sorry I come off that way. You guys can keep thinking ganon is good. I'm going back to the melee boards.

 

[.Marik]

No, I'm not disagreeing with you that Ganondorf is an abysmal and horrible character in Brawl, just present yourself better next time, because whether people like to admit it or not, Backroom members are notable within our community and should be setting an example.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

No, I'm not disagreeing with you that Ganondorf is an abysmal and horrible character in Brawl, just present yourself better next time, because whether people like to admit it or not, Backroom members are notable within our community and should be setting an example.

Aight Aight...grrrz.

And in relation to the actual thread, playing low tier does not mean you are smarter. M2k wins low tier tourneys with his ike even when there are rly good low tiers present.

 

[Kewkky]

Sometimes people confuse "elitistic" attitudes with "**** it cut the crap off and listen to us for ****'s sake, stop ignoring us!" attitude. Remember that elitistic would come off as putting down whoever you're talking to and acting superior to them in every way, while the latter comes off as you tired of the person ignoring clear messages and the guy still unfazed in his decisions.

 

[Dekar173]

I'm going to go ahead and say this again-


Winning a match or placing well with a low-tier doesn't say so much about how good you are, but instead it speaks volumes about how bad your opponent is against *insert low tier character*

:|

 

[.Marik]

@Kewkky: Forget it, re-read the posts, I don't feel like explaining something so trivial.

 

[Kewkky]

@Kewkky: Forget it, re-read the posts, I don't feel like explaining something so trivial.

I only said it because your saying "elitistic" reminded me of all the other times people accuse others of being elitistic, when in reality they are not, they're just tired of arguing with a person that won't budge from their wrong opinionated perspectives when talking about something that is a fact.

 

[.Marik]

I had a feeling you'd say something along those lines.

I'm not being elitist, I'm sick of people frowning upon the competitive Smash community because of a few big-headed individuals, and I'm not talking about Fiction.

Usually, I ignore the offenders, because they're so arrogant and possess no clear ability to reason with other people, so an argument would be futile. Usually, they are BBR or MBR members, sometimes moderators.

If the person responding to Fiction was being unreasonable and idiotic, then it'd be understandable. However, his attitude was genuine and honest, he didn't deserve to be spoken down to like that.

Backroom members are leaders, as well as admins and moderators. Set a positive example, some things just don't warrant drama.

Calling said individual "stupid" is unwarranted, and now we're getting off-topic so PM me if you have further concerns.

Which I really hope you don't.

 

[Deleted member]

Uhhh marik needs to stop meatriding canada, u guys suck.

<3

On topic:
ABSOLUTELY NOT.
People just say this to make themselves feel better, maybe youd do better with a high tier, but you arent, and you deserve your placing in tournament if u use a low tier.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Lol shadowlink.


Ics are worth playing, they have no impossible matchup.

*puts snake onto the field*
Not impossible but a pain.
In any case who cares, Metaknights MU's are far superior.
Yeah big deal, he isnt going about hard countering, so what?
The fact he maintains a steady advantage on everyone (no matter how slight it may be) makes all the difference.


IC's, marth, diddy, Falco and Snake?

Pfft. Bow down to the masked tit.


Edit: Backroom members are simply people who like grape juice drink. Want in on the backroom? Drink grapejuice drink


Edit2: i swear I should get purple for that, even in its lameness it is awesome.

 

[.Marik]

Uhhh marik needs to stop meatriding canada, u guys suck.

<3

Some of our regions do produce top players, you know. I'm not meatriding.

Okay, maybe a little. <3

 

[00000]

I'm going to go ahead and say this again-


Winning a match or placing well with a low-tier doesn't say so much about how good you are, but instead it speaks volumes about how bad your opponent is against *insert low tier character*

:|

So you're saying that if someone wins Pound 4 with Ganondorf (JV 4 stocking every match), it doesn't say so much about how good that person is.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

So you're saying that if someone wins Pound 4 with Ganondorf (JV 4 stocking every match), it doesn't say so much about how good that person is.

It means everyone else in the entire tournament was dead

 

[ShadowLink84]

It means everyone else in the entire tournament were tied up and gagged.

I felt like putting something interesting there.

Remember the grape drink

 

[Red Arremer]

Edit: Backroom members are simply people who like grape juice drink. Want in on the backroom? Drink grapejuice drink


Edit2: i swear I should get purple for that, even in its lameness it is awesome.

No, ol' bean, we only drink the finest of brandy at our dinnerparties. And as we all are aware of, brandy doesn't have to be made of grapes. Cheers!

 

[Kewkky]

No, ol' bean, we only drink the finest of brandy at our dinnerparties. And as we all are aware of, brandy doesn't have to be made of grapes. Cheers!

Blue Kool-Aid Magic is where it's at.

Spoiler

on-topic: mid tier+ mainers are smarter cuz they choose their best options to win tourneys

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm going to go ahead and say this again-


Winning a match or placing well with a low-tier doesn't say so much about how good you are, but instead it speaks volumes about how bad your opponent is against *insert low tier character*

:|

This is wrong, well kinda.

You will run into situations where people don't know the MU and win because of that. There are other times where people know the MU but aren't as skilled as the opponent.

The MU also makes a difference, Link going up against Snake is different from going up against Falco.

 

[DoonKoon]

See, Marik gets me.

It means everyone else in the entire tournament was dead

What if they weren't dead? Seriously, wouldn't it say something?

 

[Kewkky]

It would say something, DoonKoon. In fact, any low tier who would win an (inter)national-sized tourney, or at least reach top 8, their positions in the next tier list should be reconsidered.

Now, we have to wait for something like that to happen... Which, seeing how easy it is to do very nasty stuff to Ganon, it should never happen... But, yes, it would affect peoples' views on Ganon.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I'm going to go ahead and say this again-


Winning a match or placing well with a low-tier doesn't say so much about how good you are, but instead it speaks volumes about how bad your opponent is against *insert low tier character*

:|

Low-tiers have very winnable matchups, not just because of the people who don't how to fight characters.
:{

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

See, Marik gets me.



What if they weren't dead? Seriously, wouldn't it say something?

Unfortunately winning Pound4 w/ Ganon is impossible. Fox or Ike winning such a tourney is a better example.

Double Post...sorry.