Are minor characters allowed to be playable?

[kaithehedgefox]

Well, one thing I've noticed about all of the playable characters as of now is that most (maybe not all) of them are major characters. Either protagonists or antagonists. But one thing I've noticed is that most minor characters are often relegated to assist trophies, or just have spirits (formerly trophies).

One green flag I've noticed that may support the statement that minor characters (maybe with a few exceptions) are not allowed to be playable characters. Is that Waluigi is an assist trophy and not playable because he's not a main character in the official Mario series/franchise in general. And if he was promoted to playable, it might open the floodgates to other minor characters. But I still wish Waluigi was playable.

So are minor characters not allowed to be playable (with a few exceptions)?

 

[Sebas22]

Piranha Plant.

 

[Wunderwaft]

We literally have a plant as a playable character, not even a plant with a bandana, just a normal generic plant. Joke character or not, it disproved the notion that you have to be a major character to get in.

 

[Dinoman96]

We literally have a plant as a playable character, not even a plant with a bandana, just a normal generic plant. Joke character or not, it disproved the notion that you have to be a major character to get in.

Yeah but Piranha Plant is meant to be sort of a one time thing. It's a "surprise character" in that it's surprising that some random enemy goon is a full blown playable character.

Sakurai's justification for the thing was "it's a character that's well known". I don't really think that opens up the door for all random unimportant characters/mooks.

 

[Opossum]

Yeah but Piranha Plant is meant to be sort of a one time thing. It's a "surprise character" in that it's surprising that some random enemy goon is a full blown playable character.

Sakurai's justification for the thing was "it's a character that's well known". I don't really think that opens up the door for all random unimportant characters/mooks.

One time thing or not, it still shows that minor characters are "allowed" to be playable.

 

[kaithehedgefox]

Piranha Plant.

Hmm maybe Piranha Plant is an exception.

 

[Sebas22]

Yeah but Piranha Plant is meant to be sort of a one time thing. It's a "surprise character" in that it's surprising that some random enemy goon is a full blown playable character.

Sakurai's justification for the thing was "it's a character that's well known". I don't really think that opens up the door for all random unimportant characters/mooks.

Hmm maybe Piranha Plant is an exception.

Are we completely sure about that? I mean, I don't think we're going to get Cheep Cheep or Bronto Burt anytime soon. But now that Piranha Plant is in the game, I can definitely see enemies like Stalfos or Bulborbs as possible candidates at some point.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Considering the fact that you constantly fart out arguments that Joker is not an iconic character and should be an assist trophy, I guess the answer is yes.

 

[kaithehedgefox]

Are we completely sure about that? I mean, I don't think we're going to get Cheep Cheep or Bronto Burt anytime soon. But now that Piranha Plant is in the game, I can definitely see enemies like Stalfos or Bulborbs as possible candidates at some point.

Well, I think Piranha Plant only opened the floodgates for certain minor characters. Waluigi was re-relegated to an assist trophy back in the early development before the pandora's box was triggered by Piranha Plant later in development. Now that the floodgates are open, I can't doubt that poor Waluigi (what a sad thought) will be promoted to playable in Smash 6.

Considering the fact that you constantly fart out arguments that Joker is not an iconic character and should be an assist trophy, I guess the answer is yes.

You made me laugh! When I said minor characters, I'm talking about characters that aren't major in the franchise/series that they originated from. And also, Iconic does not mean Major nor does Minor mean uniconic.

Also, a typical minor character, generally merits to be an assist trophy, and/or even just a spirit. But there can be rare conditions where a minor character possesses a potential to be playable, such as Waluigi and Geno.

 

[Tino]

I see a couple of minor characters besides the plant already in Smash though...

I mean who gives a damn if a character is well known or not?

 

[Deleted member]

Yes.

They are videogame characters after all.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

You made me laugh! When I said minor characters, I'm talking about characters that aren't major in the franchise/series that they originated from. And also, Iconic does not mean Major nor does Minor mean uniconic.

Also, a typical minor character, generally merits to be an assist trophy, and/or even just a spirit. But there can be rare conditions where a minor character possesses a potential to be playable, such as Waluigi and Geno.

Then the answer is still yes because Rosalina is in this game and she has made less appearences than Waluigi.

Or because we have Young Link who has only been in two games.

Or Shiek who has only appeared in one game and one spinoff

Or Dark Samus who didn't appear until Prime Hunters

Or because we have Corrin. I don't need to explain this one.

 

[Sebas22]

Considering the fact that you constantly fart out arguments that Joker is not an iconic character and should be an assist trophy, I guess the answer is yes.

Clever response, but please don't ever say the term "iconic" to this person. I'm already having Unpopular Opinions Thread flashbacks.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Are they allowed to be playable? Most definitely.
Should they be playable? Depends. A lot of grey area on what constitutes a character to be "minor" or "major", can't really paint everything with a broad stroke.

 

[kaithehedgefox]

Then the answer is still yes because Rosalina is in this game and she has made less appearences than Waluigi.

Or because we have Young Link who has only been in two games.

Or Shiek who has only appeared in one game and one spinoff

Or Dark Samus who didn't appear until Prime Hunters

Or because we have Corrin. I don't need to explain this one.

Well actually, I don't think Shiek counts since Zelda and Shiek are the same entity. And I don't think Young Link counts either. And I think Dark Samus may no longer be a minor character soon. Same could go with Rosalina.

And when I said minor, I was talking about characters who are still minor characters only as of now. Former minor characters who later became major, do not count.

 

[JiggyNinja]

These topics are pointless because whatever logic we think we can divine from past choices doesn't mean ****. It all comes down to the decisions of the game director, and they are the ones that can create (and revise!) whatever criteria they use to pick fighters.

Before Brawl, everyone thought it would be limited to just Nintendo characters. Then Snake flipped everyone's ****. Then we're thinking it's just main characters, and a generic mook gets invited in.

Sure, argue all you want about who you want or don't want in, or how about the way you wish Smash to be. But it's stupid to argue about what will or won't because the game director is the one that makes those decisions, and they can be as arbitrary and capracious as they like.

Do I want Goku to be in Smash? No, because anime character yada yada...you know the arguments.

Will Goku ever be in Smash? If a future director decides so (and they agree on licensing), then yes! There's literally nothing more that can be said.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Since Piranha Plant a generic Mario enemy is in I would say yes, minor enemies are allowed.

Well, I think Piranha Plant only opened the floodgates for certain minor characters. Waluigi was re-relegated to an assist trophy back in the early development before the pandora's box was triggered by Piranha Plant later in development. Now that the floodgates are open, I can't doubt that poor Waluigi (what a sad thought) will be promoted to playable in Smash 6.


You made me laugh! When I said minor characters, I'm talking about characters that aren't major in the franchise/series that they originated from. And also, Iconic does not mean Major nor does Minor mean uniconic.

Also, a typical minor character, generally merits to be an assist trophy, and/or even just a spirit. But there can be rare conditions where a minor character possesses a potential to be playable, such as Waluigi and Geno.

Who is to say that Piranha Plant was planned later on in development? Because there is some evidence that Piranha Plant was planned for the base game. Evidence being that he is the only DLC character that got a Palutena's Guidance codex. It's almost obvious they didn't have enough time to put him in base so they moved him to the DLC lineup as a bonus character.

I see a couple of minor characters besides the plant already in the game though...

I mean who gives a damn if a character is well known or not?

This man get's it. Not every character that enters Smash's halls has to be a legacy character or a popular character. Smash is a great way to introduce obscure franchises that deserve more exposure to the public eye. Example kind of being Earthbound and Fire Emblem. Barely anybody over here in the west wouldn't have known those franchises existed if it wasn't for their characters being in Smash.

 

[Khao]

Or because we have Young Link who has only been in two games.

The vast majority of Links in the series are "Young". The first "Adult" Link appeared in OoT (or arguably Zelda II, but eh), and was then only used in 3 (maybe 4?) games after that. But Link has traditionally always been a child, with just a few exceptions. The idea of Young Link has been in 10-ish Zelda games so far, and that's excluding Toons.

And if you mean that specific version of Young Link, then that's still more appearances than any specific version of the "regular" Adult Link, so still.

And no, this is not relevant to anything and it doesn't even remotely go against your point. I'm just a nerd with a bad case of the Um, Actuallytis and I want my illness to spread.

 

[Crystanium]

Then the answer is still yes because Rosalina is in this game and she has made less appearences than Waluigi.

Or because we have Young Link who has only been in two games.

Or Shiek who has only appeared in one game and one spinoff

Or Dark Samus who didn't appear until Prime Hunters

Or because we have Corrin. I don't need to explain this one.

Dark Samus has a story arc, so she's a major character in the Metroid series. She's had more air time than Mother Brain.

 

[Sebas22]

These topics are pointless because whatever logic we think we can divine from past choices doesn't mean ****. It all comes down to the decisions of the game director, and they are the ones that can create (and revise!) whatever criteria they use to pick fighters.

Well, duh. It's obvious we have no power over who gets in (Unless we count the ballot in 4, but eh). Still, there's nothing wrong with talking and discussing about it. If you think there's no point, then just ignore the thread and move on.

Will Goku ever be in Smash? If a future director decides so (and they agree on licensing), then yes! There's literally nothing more that can be said.

Future director? Sakurai will never leave Smash.

 

[Dinoman96]

Then the answer is still yes because Rosalina is in this game and she has made less appearences than Waluigi.

Or because we have Young Link who has only been in two games.

Or Shiek who has only appeared in one game and one spinoff

Or Dark Samus who didn't appear until Prime Hunters

Or because we have Corrin. I don't need to explain this one.

Rosalina has made less appearances than Waluigi...if you're counting spinoffs. If you're counting purely mainline games, Rosie's got Waluigi beat considering the latter has made exactly zero physical appearances in the platforming series, and that's what really counts. Doesn't hurt that two of those installments she's in (the Galaxy games) are considered to be two of the best games ever made.

Young Link is the protagonist of the games he's in.

I'll give you Sheik, but she's more of a special case: she's just the alter ego of Zelda. She only ever got in as an extension of her transformation gimmick back in Melee. Obviously, this carried over into Brawl, and by the time transformations were axed for Smash 4, she was already well grandfathered into the series, so they couldn't remove her. If she was an entirely seperate character in OOT's story, she more than likely would of never been included in Melee to begin with.

Dark Samus technically first appeared at the end of Prime (she wasn't even in Hunters). Her main saving grace is the fact that she could work as an echo fighter, she wouldn't of been included if she had to be fully unique.

Corrin, for all of his faults, is the protagonist of his game.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Future director? Sakurai will never leave Smash.

Dude Sakurai needs to retire for the next installment or else the fans will drag him to his grave. This man has done so much for us that we don't even deserve him. His health is more important than him making Smash games for us so I don't mind if he passes the torch to another person.

 

[JiggyNinja]

I'll give you Sheik, but she's more of a special case: she's just the alter ego of Zelda. She only ever got in as an extension of her transformation gimmick back in Melee. If she was an entirely seperate character in OOT's story, she more than likely would of never been included.

Like Geno!

 

[Dinoman96]

Like Geno!

View attachment 232038

I like the way you think.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Given how Japanese folks culturally tend to treat their jobs like a second life, I don't think he'd mind too much (he'll probably have plans for unrelated projects in a few years, but as of now we have no way of determining that). At least the workload will be reduced if there's only DLC for a couple years. And Sakurai's other projects do get fondly remembered, compared to the manga authors Yudetamago literally only being known for the original Kinnikuman at this point.

He will eventually need a successor though, that's for sure. At least when he gets too old to continue.

As for the topic itself, minor characters can potentially fit if they have enough to work with and are relatively noteworthy enough. Shy Guy comes to mind, given how ubiquitous that one is.

Like Geno!

If we used that logic, we'd have to assume that Mario acts like the Smith Syndicate in Killer 7, since Mallow, Bowser and Peach are also in his party.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Like Geno!

View attachment 232038

I mean, even Geno was a major party member and a main character in the story in the game he came from, the thing that hurts him is the fact that Super Mario RPG is still technically a spin off and therefore the irrelevancy of the game itself (and neither of the spiritual successor series really have anything to do with Geno storywise).

The whole being developed by Square thing doesn't really help matters, because instead of being an easy 1st party that could be added on a whim he has to compete with big behemoths like Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest when it comes to 3rd Party Selection.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Well actually, I don't think Shiek counts since Zelda and Shiek are the same entity. And I don't think Young Link counts either. And I think Dark Samus may no longer be a minor character soon. Same could go with Rosalina.

And when I said minor, I was talking about characters who are still minor characters only as of now. Former minor characters who later became major, do not count.

I see. So every character is an exception to this rule. I feel like what's going to happen is you'll lead the thread to another one of your ideas about who should or should not be playable as you've done previously.

Dark Samus technically first appeared at the end of Prime (she wasn't even in Hunters). Her main saving grace is the fact that she could work as an echo fighter, she wouldn't of been included if she had to be fully unique.

My mistake. I misread some information.

 

[Sebas22]

Dude Sakurai needs to retire for the next installment or else the fans will drag him to his grave. This man has done so much for us that we don't even deserve him. His health is more important than him making Smash games for us so I don't mind if he passes the torch to another person.

You're absolutely right. He should stop and take care of himself. But he comes back everytime. It almost looks as if he doesn't want to pass the torch.

I see. So every character is an exception to this rule. I feel like what's going to happen is you'll lead the thread to another one of your ideas about who should or should not be playable as you've done previously.

Does Young Link count as a minor character, though? He is both Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask protagonist, after all.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I mean, we got Daisy, and she's only a major character in one game unless you count her as a major character due to the spinoffs.

But then you have to count Waluigi as a major character for the spinoffs, too, especially since he was a main antagonist in at least 2 or 3 of them, alongside Wario in at least one (I haven't played them all...).

Then we have Skull Kid who's a major character in Majora's Mask (even if you don't see him much throughout the game), he's part of a side-quest in Ocarina of Time + you can play Saria's Song to him, and he's a mini boss in Twilight Princess (though it's not confirmed if he's the same Skull Kid), and is playable in Hyrule Warriors alongside other major characters (the Twilight Princess Skull Kid is also in Link's Crossbow Training). Midna and Ghirahim are also major characters, one a main character and the other a major villain. I guess this is similar to Daisy's case, but of course she's been in a lot more spinoffs (obviously)...

Geno is also a main character in SMRPG, but admittedly he's not a major character for the franchise...still, I fully believe this doesn't matter as long as they're noteworthy enemies like Piranha Plant or main/iconic characters or have a lot of demand; Nintendo has also been acknowledging SMRPG, with the stuff it has in Smash, its exclusive Piranha Plant species being mentioned in the Palutena's Guidance (albeit alongside other Piranha Plants from Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi), Nintendo tweeting about its 22nd anniversary last year and asking people if they're Team Geno or Team Mallow, and some app called "HQ" or something having a Nintendo-sponsored quiz during The Game Awards that had the question "Which game has a main character who is a possessed doll?", the correct answer being SMRPG and it flat-out gave Geno's name after you answered it.

There's also some Nintendo characters that are major for their franchise yet only have a Spirit, but by your logic we have to apply a made-up fan rule and assume they'll never get in because they're somehow minor and no one wants them.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I mean, we got Daisy, and she's only a major character in one game unless you count her as a major character due to the spinoffs.

But then you have to count Waluigi as a major character for the spinoffs, too, especially since he was a main antagonist in at least 2 or 3 of them, alongside Wario in at least one (I haven't played them all...).

Technically, Super Mario Run probably gave Daisy the push she needed to finally be accepted, since it's a platformer of a sort. Waluigi's big villain roles have both been hijacked by Bowser in the end (even worse in DDR: Mario Mix, in which Waluigi's the first boss ), so it's still taking ages for him to be taken seriously even in his big spin-off roles.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Technically, Super Mario Run probably gave Daisy the push she needed to finally be accepted, since it's a platformer of a sort. Waluigi's big villain roles have both been hijacked by Bowser in the end (even worse in DDR: Mario Mix, in which Waluigi's the first boss ), so it's still taking ages for him to be taken seriously even in his big spin-off roles.

Didn't know that, I assumed Waluigi was the main boss of DDR, heh.

I guess SMR could've given Daisy a push. Maybe I should've brought up Toad instead, I believe he's a good example too despite not being playable in Smash like Daisy is; to be honest, I'm thinking he's a much better example.

 

[Dinoman96]

Honestly, I really don't think we should be using characters like Daisy as an example that "minor characters" can be playable.

You have to consider that the only reason Daisy is even playable is just because she can work as an echo fighter. Notice how she has exactly zero gameplay differences from Peach, any differences between them is purely aesthetic. She took very, very little effort to make. Same thing with guys like Dark Samus or Dark Pit.

The problem is, characters like Waluigi, Skull Kid, Geno, etc can't really be echo/clones. They'd require actual effort and a large amount of resources and time to make them playable, and well, because of their statuses as characters, it's questionable if they're really worth the effort for Sakurai and his team. That's the crux of the issue.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Honestly, I really don't think we should be using characters like Daisy as an example that "minor characters" can be playable.

You have to consider that the only reason Daisy is even playable is just because she can work as an echo fighter. Notice how she has exactly zero gameplay differences from Peach, any differences between them is purely aesthetic. She took very, very little effort to make. Same thing with guys like Dark Samus or Dark Pit.

The problem is, characters like Waluigi, Skull Kid, Geno, etc can't really be echo/clones. They'd require actual effort and a large amount of resources and time to make them playable, and well, because of their statuses as characters, it's questionable if they're really worth the effort for Sakurai and his team. That's the crux of the issue.

I mean, I just explained how they're not minor (aside from Geno perhaps) but I really don't think they look at it that way for these characters; heck Toad is definitely a major character and he's just Peach's side-B, and if Piranha Plant can be added then they definitely count. I don't get why people think this hard and make up these rules.

And they could've just decided to not add Daisy if they didn't think she was good enough, they probably just thought she's pretty close to Peach anyway and decided she'd be a good choice; if they had more dev time, given Sakurai's words on not expecting too many newcomers, she probably would've even been unique.

 

[JiggyNinja]

I don't get why people think this hard and make up these rules.

That's the point I have been making. There are no rules except for what the director decides, and those rules can be revised for any reason.

 

[kaithehedgefox]

Honestly, I really don't think we should be using characters like Daisy as an example that "minor characters" can be playable.

You have to consider that the only reason Daisy is even playable is just because she can work as an echo fighter. Notice how she has exactly zero gameplay differences from Peach, any differences between them is purely aesthetic. She took very, very little effort to make. Same thing with guys like Dark Samus or Dark Pit.

The problem is, characters like Waluigi, Skull Kid, Geno, etc can't really be echo/clones. They'd require actual effort and a large amount of resources and time to make them playable, and well, because of their statuses as characters, it's questionable if they're really worth the effort for Sakurai and his team. That's the crux of the issue.

Daisy isn't much of a minor character as she used to be. I don't think Daisy is playable because she's an echo, it's just because of her popularity. And I always knew Waluigi, Geno, and Skull Kid would need to be made from scratch. But Waluigi could be a semi-clone of Luigi. But not an Echo. Wheareas Echo fighters aren't made from Scratch and reuse scripts and codes.

I mean, I just explained how they're not minor (aside from Geno perhaps) but I really don't think they look at it that way for these characters; heck Toad is definitely a major character and he's just Peach's side-B, and if Piranha Plant can be added then they definitely count. I don't get why people think this hard and make up these rules.

And they could've just decided to not add Daisy if they didn't think she was good enough, they probably just thought she's pretty close to Peach anyway and decided she'd be a good choice; if they had more dev time, given Sakurai's words on not expecting too many newcomers, she probably would've even been unique.

Uhh Toad can still be playable since characters in moves are no longer deconfirmed since Ultimate.

I mean, we got Daisy, and she's only a major character in one game unless you count her as a major character due to the spinoffs.

But then you have to count Waluigi as a major character for the spinoffs, too, especially since he was a main antagonist in at least 2 or 3 of them, alongside Wario in at least one (I haven't played them all...).

Then we have Skull Kid who's a major character in Majora's Mask (even if you don't see him much throughout the game), he's part of a side-quest in Ocarina of Time + you can play Saria's Song to him, and he's a mini boss in Twilight Princess (though it's not confirmed if he's the same Skull Kid), and is playable in Hyrule Warriors alongside other major characters (the Twilight Princess Skull Kid is also in Link's Crossbow Training). Midna and Ghirahim are also major characters, one a main character and the other a major villain. I guess this is similar to Daisy's case, but of course she's been in a lot more spinoffs (obviously)...

Geno is also a main character in SMRPG, but admittedly he's not a major character for the franchise...still, I fully believe this doesn't matter as long as they're noteworthy enemies like Piranha Plant or main/iconic characters or have a lot of demand; Nintendo has also been acknowledging SMRPG, with the stuff it has in Smash, its exclusive Piranha Plant species being mentioned in the Palutena's Guidance (albeit alongside other Piranha Plants from Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi), Nintendo tweeting about its 22nd anniversary last year and asking people if they're Team Geno or Team Mallow, and some app called "HQ" or something having a Nintendo-sponsored quiz during The Game Awards that had the question "Which game has a main character who is a possessed doll?", the correct answer being SMRPG and it flat-out gave Geno's name after you answered it.

There's also some Nintendo characters that are major for their franchise yet only have a Spirit, but by your logic we have to apply a made-up fan rule and assume they'll never get in because they're somehow minor and no one wants them.

Just because a character is only a major character for just one game/scene/episode/series doesn't make that character a major character. And actually, those major characters can still get in.

You're absolutely right. He should stop and take care of himself. But he comes back everytime. It almost looks as if he doesn't want to pass the torch.


Does Young Link count as a minor character, though? He is both Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask protagonist, after all.

No Young Link doesn't count as a minor character because he's still Link.

As for the topic itself, minor characters can potentially fit if they have enough to work with and are relatively noteworthy enough. Shy Guy comes to mind, given how ubiquitous that one is.

Correct, I've already aforementioned that there are only certain minor characters who merit to be playable. And I have to say that Waluigi being an assist trophy is just no absolute laughing matter.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Does Young Link count as a minor character, though? He is both Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask protagonist, after all.

If we're going to be very specific, and use the term "Young Link" to include only the younger version of the Hero of Time, then in comparison to the entirety of the Zelda series, yes. This is in the context of the Links across different timelines being different characters because they are. While the "Young Link" has appeared in many games, the one used in Smash is only the Hero of Time from Majora's Mask.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Uhh Toad can still be playable since characters in moves are no longer deconfirmed since Ultimate.

Just because a character is only a major character for just one game/scene/episode/series doesn't make that character a major character. And actually, those major characters can still get in.

I guess but it's very unlikely imo.

I don't know, perhaps. The Zelda characters I mentioned are all assist trophies, though...

 

[Strong Badam]

This thread isn't fruitful for reasons given in the thread. A recent addition to the roster indicates that, yes, minor characters are allowed to be playable. That could be an exception, or it could not be, and there's no way to ascertain the truth. Lastly, the userbase of Smashboards doesn't dictate the criteria for character inclusion, the game director and IP license holders do. You're better off hopping in Newcomer Speculation for characters that you do want to see, rather than repeatedly making threads like these about roster addition criteria.