Are Heavys Cheap To Play/Main?

[Bender323]

I've had a dispute with some of my friends for while. My two amigos believe that heavies can deal and take more damage, with almost no downfall, therefor they are cheap. Could I get some outside opinion about this?

 

[Swordmaster102]

Character like bowser and DK are definitely not bad, but to say heavies are cheap/broken is quite unrealistic. Yes, heavies live longer and can dish out more damage on average, but most heavies have larger hurtboxes, therefore they can get stuck in combos easier. Not to mention the other weaknesses like they tend to be slow. At the casual level, heavies can seem overpowered. Though, when playing at the more competitive level, the struggles heavies have and their weaknesses become very noticeable and obvious.

So no, heavies really are not cheap.

 

[Orlando BCN]

What’s problematic about heavies in Ultimate is that they have speed as well as power, so they have silly priority. I guess you could call them cheap in certain situations, but that doesn’t mean they’re invincible. Obviously quicker characters like Sonic can overwhelm them quite easily.

 

[chillbro95]

it depends if they are actually playing them because they like the character or that the are cheap or broken

 

[shade3134]

Character like bowser and DK are definitely not bad, but to say heavies are cheap/broken is quite unrealistic. Yes, heavies live longer and can dish out more damage on average, but most heavies have larger hurtboxes, therefore they can get stuck in combos easier. Not to mention the other weaknesses like they tend to be slow. At the casual level, heavies can seem overpowered. Though, when playing at the more competitive level, the struggles heavies have and their weaknesses become very noticeable and obvious.

So no, heavies really are not cheap.

Heavies definitely aren't slow. Not to mention, some like K. Rool having super armor on a lot of attacks is pretty OP.

 

[Xelrog]

Tell your friends to play said heavies, then brutally destroy them with quick, combo-heavy characters or zoners. Ruin their day with Young Link or Inkling. Better yet, tell them to play online with the cheap broken heavy characters and then get back to you when they're beating everyone but other heavies, because they're so cheap and broken and top tier.

 

[Sean²]

Like every good heavy character gets rekt by strong zoners in this game. Bowser or DK vs either Belmont is really good way to be put into a Belmont highlight video. It's miserably unfun for the heavy user.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Cheap characters to play are ones like Pichu, Roy or Peach who have matchup advantages against almost every fighter. I can't think of a single heavy I'd rank higher than mid tier. They have weaknesses such as slowness and bad frame data. King K. Rool, Incineroar, Dedede, etc. are all very slow and far from OP or cheap. In casual play they might seem cheap but realistically no heavy is the OP fighter some kids make them out to be.

 

[channel_KYX]

This thread is a perfect example for the fact that it is practically impossible to balance for both casual and competitive play alike. Thank you for bringing it to our attention.

To get more insight on you and your friends: do you play 1on1? Items on/off? Acceptable neutral stages or more temple/big blue/new pork city?

 

[Crystanium]

"Heavy" is conflated with "big body". Weight in SSB isn't like weight in reality. There are plenty of heavy characters who aren't large in size. Heavy objects fall faster than lighter objects, although both fall at the same acceleration. A light character like Fox falls faster than a heavy character like Bowser. Typically, one would expect a feather to drop slowly in the air while a bowling ball would drop faster.

To answer your question, there's nothing cheap about playing as a big body character. They tend to struggle against faster characters and zoners who can enjoy the thrill of being chased. Most big bodies are pretty fast, such as Ridley, Bowser, and DK. So far, this seems to me to be what helps move them in the direction of viability, although their size will always be their weakness.

 

[osby]

"Heavy" is conflated with "big body". Weight in SSB isn't like weight in reality. There are plenty of heavy characters who aren't large in size. Heavy objects fall faster than lighter objects, although both fall at the same acceleration. A light character like Fox falls faster than a heavy character like Bowser. Typically, one would expect a feather to drop slowly in the air while a bowling ball would drop faster.

Only reason feathers drop slower than a bowling ball is air friction. Weight has no effect on falling speed IRL.

 

[channel_KYX]

Heavy objects fall faster than lighter objects, although both fall at the same acceleration. A light character like Fox falls faster than a heavy character like Bowser. Typically, one would expect a feather to drop slowly in the air while a bowling ball would drop faster.

In a vacuum, a feather and a bowling ball fall at the same speed. Air resistance is the only factor here.
Take two identical sheets of paper and roll one of them to a ball. Drop them at the same time. They fall at a different speed but their weight is the same.

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

You ever pin a Belmont against a heavy fighter? The heavy stands no chance of even getting near their opponent because they're too slow and are usually miles away from the Belmont when attacks are thrown out.

Really, this can apply to any character with a decent reach. It doesn't have to be Simon/Richter.

 

[TheDuke54]

I couldn't say I don't play them on Ultimate. In the other games they were a lot slower and sacrificed speed for weight/being tanky and having good power. I'd have to play around with heavy cpu and people online to get a final vote. But I'd say their weight makes them not cheap. It makes them slower, their jumps more heavy, and their recovery not as good. I've seen DK's be so close to the ledge but their helicopter recovery fell super short.

 

[Crystanium]

osby
channel_KYX

I already know these. This is why I said they fall at the same acceleration, 9.81 m/s^2. I was illustrating that weight in SSB is nothing like weight in reality, so you must differentiate weight from big body.

 

[Xelrog]

I can't recall any extremely heavy characters that are tiny, nor any very large characters that are light in this game.

Ergo, yes, broadly speaking, heavy = big body.

 

[JiggyNinja]

I can't recall any extremely heavy characters that are tiny, nor any very large characters that are light in this game.

Ergo, yes, broadly speaking, heavy = big body.

Mewtwo's probably the most out of place for size-weight expectations, being the 5th lightest in the whole roster. Pikachu, Olimar, and ****ing Kirby are somehow heavier than Mewtwo. In actual Pokemon lore Mewtwo is supposed to be 20 times heavier than Pikachu (270 lbs. vs 13 lbs.).

I've had a dispute with some of my friends for while. My two amigos believe that heavies can deal and take more damage, with almost no downfall, therefor they are cheap. Could I get some outside opinion about this?

If they think the heavies have no downside, they must really suck. They're probably at the stage of understanding the basic mechanics of the game and having proper control of their character, but not knowing the proper use and value of all their moves (I'm not far past this stage myself). If they're regularly letting a heavy live to over 200% it means they're not doing a good job using their kill moves, or don't even know what their kill moves are supposed to be.

I couldn't say I don't play them on Ultimate. In the other games they were a lot slower and sacrificed speed for weight/being tanky and having good power. I'd have to play around with heavy cpu and people online to get a final vote. But I'd say their weight makes them not cheap. It makes them slower, their jumps more heavy, and their recovery not as good. I've seen DK's be so close to the ledge but their helicopter recovery fell super short.

Actually many of the heavies in this game have surprisingly good recovery. Of the top 8 heaviest characters, Ganondorf is the only one I'd say has an inarguably bad recovery. Incineroar is mediocre or below average, and Donkey Kong's is the way it's always been. But the rest (Bowser, K. Rool, Dedede, Charizard) are pretty good, and almost God tier in the case of Piranha Plant.

 

[Predatoria]

It's the small, fast characters that usually get me scared. I'm way more terrified of a Pichu than a Bowser.

The further you get, skillwise, in the game, the less and less threatening most heavies tend to be. Players start comboing heavies brutally at high levels. That's one of the biggest reasons why you see less and less Bowsers, Ganondorfs, and DKs in the highest level tournaments, and the ranks are composed almost entirely of small, swift characters like Olimar, Pichu, and Inkling.

I'd say that, contrary to the opening post, heavies are the least cheap thing to play in the game. You're starting with a handicap, and I have a lot of respect for players who rep these characters at tournaments. Good heavy players often tend to be players who are phenomenal at picking up on "reads," basically, predicting where your opponent will be or what your opponent will do before they actually do it, because heavy characters typically lack the frame data to hit with some of their moves otherwise. A Ganondorf sword to the face can easily change the tide of a match, as it will kill super low, even at 40% in some cases. Good luck hitting a feisty Pichu with a Ganondorf side smash though. It's not easy to pull off.

 

[Rhus]

Heavies are typically pubstompers.

Doesn't mean I'm not terrified of Ganon killing me in 2-3 hits.

 

[Quillion]

We've talked at length about this before. And while heavies are certainly better in this game, they're still not winning any top-level play against the speedsters.

Predatoria has it right, and that's simply because speedsters generally have more room for players to grow in skill because their movesets are optimized for improving with fast, precise inputs per minute. Heavies don't have that luxury since their moves are so laggy.

Anyway, this is why I think hitstun needs to be reworked in a future Smash so that every character has hitstun to support the frame data they have, and heavies have the ability to follow up like their speedster counterparts.

 

[Pyra]

I don't think so. I think they're pretty much inherently at a disadvantage, as others have said.

Doesn't make them any less satisfying for me, but at higher levels it kinda turns a little bit towards being a numbers game.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I've had a dispute with some of my friends for while. My two amigos believe that heavies can deal and take more damage, with almost no downfall, therefor they are cheap. Could I get some outside opinion about this?

If your friends seriously think this then they are lacking in knowledge and experience.

Don't listen to them. You are better off looking up high level tournament fights and confirm for yourself if they are truly "OP" or not.

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

I've had a dispute with some of my friends for while. My two amigos believe that heavies can deal and take more damage, with almost no downfall, therefor they are cheap. Could I get some outside opinion about this?

To be honest, anyone will say to their friends that another character is cheap in an attempt to get them to not play them. Half of the people at game club gave me a lot of crap for trying to play Richter in a friendly tournament we set up for fun. When I caved and switched to my secondary Ike, the ones who weren't giving me crap about being Richter began to give me crap about being Ike and vise versa.

Just because you have two friends who believe heavies are the way to go doesn't mean they're objectively good. Watch some tournaments to get an idea of how high level players play, play some online in competitive settings, and decide these things for yourself.

 

[Gryphon827]

It depends on which heavy you're talking about. Almost all of the heavies are balanced characters. King K. Rool, however, is pretty overpowered for reasons all of you should know at this point.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Just to be clear, while certain heavy fighters may be able to deal good damage and make quick KOs with minimal effort, those types of strengths tend to be offset by poor frame data, large hurtboxes, the lack of armor to make up for the long start-up periods, or even poor mobility options. Of course, not every heavy fighter is slow, but for the ones who are, they'll likely struggle against the quicker fighters who have more favorable frame data for their attacks.

Even Bowser isn't safe from this issue, since even with his tough guy mechanic, it pretty much doesn't help him if a lot of attacks deal more knockback than what his heavy armor can sustain.

Now, in theory, a heavy fighter with traits comparable to that of a lightweight would likely excel better in a competitive environment. Yoshi could've been a good example of a heavier fighter who excels more on quick attack speed than raw power, if his frame data was made to be good.

 

[Sean²]

It depends on which heavy you're talking about. Almost all of the heavies are balanced characters. King K. Rool, however, is pretty overpowered for reasons all of you should know at this point.

Don't lie to the kid. You're putting bad thoughts in his head.

 

[JiggyNinja]

It depends on which heavy you're talking about. Almost all of the heavies are balanced characters. King K. Rool, however, is pretty overpowered for reasons all of you should know at this point.

Only if you're too stupid to stop running face first into him.

 

[Xelrog]

K. Rool is a pubstomper.

 

[TreeChopperVillager]

I've had a dispute with some of my friends for while. My two amigos believe that heavies can deal and take more damage, with almost no downfall, therefor they are cheap. Could I get some outside opinion about this?

First of all, Not all of them. Heavies like Ridley and Bowser have some moves that can result in a "downfall" Although, King K.Rool is a bit cheap. And that's coming from a K.Rool Main. He has 2 decent projectiles, a really good recovery that could ( possibly ) save them from a spike in mid-air, an almost overpowered counter and he's pretty fast when he runs. Forgot to mention that he has a really good spike and therefor, that leads to cheap kills. So here's a list of cheap and non-cheap heavies.

Cheap:

Non-Cheap:

 

[Mr Saturn Fanboy]

D.K. and K. Rool are definately cheesable. DDD has been like this since his invitation. But all things considered, it depends on the matchup.

"Does this character have a reliable reflect?" "Is this character fast enough to dodge my attacks?" "Can this character break my shield?"

AKA
"Can this character get around my gimmick?"

and then you get spiked womp womp

Notice how this can be applied to about half the roster at least. COUgHIsabelleCoUGH

 

[Mogisthelioma]

King K. Rool, however, is pretty overpowered for reasons all of you should know at this point.

KKR is hot garbage. He suffers like any other heavy does. Half of his moves are unusable and/or have terrible frame data. His projectiles are linear, slow moving, easy to respond to and have little use. His armor is the only thing keeping him from being the worst fighter IMO. Whiffing almost half of his moves is a guaranteed punish, and now that he's nerfed he becomes easier to gimp, edgeguard, and escape his d-throw setups. He's only OP is you run into his attack and can't learn to punish his armor.

Also TreeChopperVillager I agree mostly with your list but what makes you think and are cheap? Most people call a mid-bottom tier, and requires lots of practice to get around his disadvantages and almost all of his matchups are different.

 

[TreeChopperVillager]

I agree mostly with your list but what makes you think and are cheap?

Well, Dedede... I might move him. But DK is because, In my eyes, I always get good kills with DK and so do many other people on the list. Also I have one reason for Dedede. It's because of his Up Special and his Down Special. Once again, Online players get good kills with Dedede and it makes both of them seem cheap. Still might move Dedede and a small maybe for DK.

Also K.Rool isn't "hot garbage" when you get good at him.

Oh yeah, Dedede and DK get alot of cheap kills too.

 

[Haden]

Heavies definitely aren't slow. Not to mention, some like K. Rool having super armor on a lot of attacks is pretty OP.

I can't even begin to tell you how many times I armor broke K Rools. The armor attacks aren't that beneficial for him. He's still bottom tier because he's still a dumb, slow heavy.

I've had a dispute with some of my friends for while. My two amigos believe that heavies can deal and take more damage, with almost no downfall, therefor they are cheap. Could I get some outside opinion about this?

Heavies are FAR from cheap in this game. They are indeed slightly faster than most people are used to a heavy being, but they are on average slower in bother ground and air, and their hitboxes don't exactly come out as fast as smaller, lighter characters. By the time a Bowser or DK goes to throw out a tilt attack, they're probably already being busted with a combo because X character's frame data is superior and faster. The main advantage of a heavy is that they DO in fact live longer, and hit harder, but they on average also have s*** recovery, and you can kill them at like 40% off stage like any other character if you git gud and learn to edge guard. Heavies are generally mid tier at best, except for Bowser and DK who BARELY make high tier, but no heavy is a top tier, that's for sure. You know who's really cheap? Wolf. Best projectile in game. Best airdodge in game. Best forward tilt that dge guards almost the entire cast for free in the game. Wolf isn't exactly a "heavy". Neither is Pichu. Shall I get started on how a Pichu can basically shred a bowser in 1 combo? Casuals think heavies are broke because they don't know how to take advantage of their faster characters with superior frame data, and they often can't edge guard if they even try to begin with.

In short. Heavies are dogs*** on average, particularly when you start getting higher in skill levels.

 

[TreeChopperVillager]

I can't even begin to tell you how many times I armor broke K Rools. The armor attacks aren't that beneficial for him. He's still bottom tier because he's still a dumb, slow heavy.

I wouldn't call him dumb. Sure he may be bottom tier if he is but he ain't slow. Plus K.Rool is weak to certain characters with strong moves. ( Such as Bowser and Ganondorf. )

 

[Haden]

It depends on which heavy you're talking about. Almost all of the heavies are balanced characters. King K. Rool, however, is pretty overpowered for reasons all of you should know at this point.

K Rool is bottom tier lol

 

[Haden]

I wouldn't call him dumb. Sure he may be bottom tier if he is but he ain't slow. Plus K.Rool is weak to certain characters with strong moves. ( Such as Bowser and Ganondorf. )

My buddy ~?~ mains Link and I literally watch him armor break K Rool with Young Link and Breath Link consistently. You don't need a heavy to armor break him.

 

[TreeChopperVillager]

My buddy ~?~ mains Link and I literally watch him armor break K Rool with Young Link and Breath Link consistently. You don't need a heavy to armor break him.

Even if his armor breaks easily, it's not all about his armor. He has plenty of other moves that are good. Like his Up Special can help him resist Spikes.
Or maybe his armor doesn't break easily the CPU / Player could be using it too much.

 

[Haden]

Even if his armor breaks easily, it's not all about his armor. He has plenty of other moves that are good. Like his Up Special can help him resist Spikes.

I actually have a replay of ~?~ spiking a K Rool AND a Snake in a twitch clip. I mean, you can try to make that argument, but a good player will beat that argument any day. Also, you can do a falling backair off stage and stage spike him with enough knockback.

To be frank, the only viable heavies in the game are DK, Bowser and Snake. The rest are for the trashcan. K Rool is all cheese, and if you can't cheese with K Rool and the player the K Rool is fighting also has a good neutral game, that K Rool is EZ.

 

[TreeChopperVillager]

I actually have a replay of ~?~ spiking a K Rool AND a Snake in a twitch clip. I mean, you can try to make that argument, but a good player will beat that argument any day. Also, you can do a falling backair off stage and stage spike him with enough knockback.

To be frank, the only viable heavies in the game are DK, Bowser and Snake. The rest are for the trashcan. K Rool is all cheese, and if you can't cheese with K Rool and the player the K Rool is fighting also has a good neutral game, that K Rool is EZ.

Well, sure. You can spike him on the sides but most normal players, even including me, would not thing of that. Also Bowser isn't viable. He's just too slow.

I won't be able to respond to ur reply in minutes if you have one. Mainly cause i'm going somewhere. So i'll reply when i can.

 

[Haden]

Well, sure. You can spike him on the sides but most normal players, even including me, would not thing of that. Also Bowser isn't viable. He's just too slow.

I won't be able to respond to ur reply in minutes if you have one. Mainly cause i'm going somewhere. So i'll reply when i can.

I'm not a casual player, so when I speak, I'm speaking from a high level viewpoint.
K Rool CAN be spiked during his Up Special, I don't mean JUST stage spiking, but literal spiking. Stage spikes are merely the easier and safer option. As far as Bowser goes, not a single top player agree with you. In fact, most of them put him in the bottom of the high tier section of the tier list. You're talking about a character that can deal like 50+ percent on you just by pressing the B button. A character that can literally FAIR you off stage at like 60% and kill you. Bowser is NO JOKE. He also runs as fast as Diddy Kong, which is actually stupid. Lastly, lets not forget his bigboy armor allowing him to punch through attacks. Oh, and his armor doesn't bust like K Rools. High level Bowsers are a scarey thing to deal with, ESPECIALLY if they are flawless in the grapple game with Bowsers INSANELY powerful command grab (side special), which is even more insane on a tri-platform stage, killing people EZ at like 100% sometimes.