Are Heavys Cheap To Play/Main?

[TreeChopperVillager]

I'm not a casual player, so when I speak, I'm speaking from a high level viewpoint.
K Rool CAN be spiked during his Up Special, I don't mean JUST stage spiking, but literal spiking. Stage spikes are merely the easier and safer option. As far as Bowser goes, not a single top player agree with you. In fact, most of them put him in the bottom of the high tier section of the tier list. You're talking about a character that can deal like 50+ percent on you just by pressing the B button. A character that can literally FAIR you off stage at like 60% and kill you. Bowser is NO JOKE. He also runs as fast as Diddy Kong, which is actually stupid. Lastly, lets not forget his bigboy armor allowing him to punch through attacks. Oh, and his armor doesn't bust like K Rools. High level Bowsers are a scarey thing to deal with, ESPECIALLY if they are flawless in the grapple game with Bowsers INSANELY powerful command grab (side special), which is even more insane on a tri-platform stage, killing people EZ at like 100% sometimes.

But when Bowsers attacks miss, he will most likely die with a strong enough hit. Well, not die but get knocked off the stage atleast a bit.

And now, i'm done talking to you. I will not respond to anymore messages of yours on this topic.

 

[Sean²]

But when Bowsers attacks miss, he will most likely die with a strong enough hit. Well, not die but get knocked off the stage atleast a bit.

And now, i'm done talking to you. I will not respond to anymore messages of yours on this topic.

As someone who plays Bowser on the side, you don’t need his slow attacks to get a lot of mileage. His tilts, aerials, and B moves (except for down B) do it all. The slow attacks are basically for guaranteed kills only. Maybe sometimes a hard read, but that’s not going to be successful very often.

And if he does whiff, he might take damage. But if you’re living till 190% against half the roster, a few % is like nothing. The worst thing he has going for him is that he’s so easy to combo. But he also has the ability to deceptively outrange a lot of characters and break through weak hits with the tough guy mechanic.

He’s also extremely easy to play.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Up Special and his Down Special. Once again, Online players get good kills with Dedede and it makes both of them seem cheap. Still might move Dedede and a small maybe for DK.

You do realize how slow and punishable both of those two moves are, right? If someone lands those and gets a KO, that means they're good, not because they're playing with a cheap advantage.

But when Bowsers attacks miss, he will most likely die with a strong enough hit. Well, not die but get knocked off the stage atleast a bit.

Only if you're dumb and you try to punish something with Bowser's F-smash.

 

[TreeChopperVillager]

You do realize how slow and punishable both of those two moves are, right? If someone lands those and gets a KO, that means they're good, not because they're playing with a cheap advantage.

Only if you're dumb and you try to punish something with Bowser's F-smash.

lol

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

You know, it really does feel surprising to hear that King K. Rool has become nothing more than a joke. I mean, I had a feeling that his projectile options would get shut down by fighters like Fox, Rosalina, and Villager, but to be terrible against the whole roster was not something that I expected to hear from people.

Of course, you do have to accuse the developers for making K. Rool's mobility so lackluster as a whole; on my end, I more expected him to be highly mobile in the air (rivaling Wario's air speed), and while he would be a slow walker, his running speed would rival Mario's running speed.

 

[Goddamn_Angela]

"Sakurai hates Heavies" is a half-meme for a reason.

It depends on which heavy you're talking about. Almost all of the heavies are balanced characters. King K. Rool, however, is pretty overpowered for reasons all of you should know at this point.

This isn't a matter of opinion: You. Are. Wrong.

 

[Xelrog]

Also TreeChopperVillager I agree mostly with your list but what makes you think and are cheap?

I'm assuming he's talking about a non-competitive environment, where both characters have some frustrating shenanigans. DK's carry-to-the-edge-of-the-level-and-throw comes to mind.

 

[Sean²]

You know, it really does feel surprising to hear that King K. Rool has become nothing more than a joke. I mean, I had a feeling that his projectile options would get shut down by fighters like Fox, Rosalina, and Villager, but to be terrible against the whole roster was not something that I expected to hear from people.

Of course, you do have to accuse the developers for making K. Rool's mobility so lackluster as a whole; on my end, I more expected him to be highly mobile in the air (rivaling Wario's air speed), and while he would be a slow walker, his running speed would rival Mario's running speed.

It's almost like they tried to make him a heavy-zoner hybrid imo.

Hybrid characters usually end up getting stuck around mid tier at best. They can do both, but have to sacrifice the strengths that makes true zoners or a true cqc characters great at what they do, and end up just kind of decent within both archetypes. Case in point: Robin, Mii Swordfighter.

 

[channel_KYX]

But he also has the ability to deceptively outrange a lot of characters

This is among his strongest assets. So many times I feel safe and all of the sudden his arm grows double the size and hits me.
I like that he's not completely useless this time. He deserves it.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

It's almost like they tried to make him a heavy-zoner hybrid imo.

Hybrid characters usually end up getting stuck around mid tier at best. They can do both, but have to sacrifice the strengths that makes true zoners or a true cqc characters great at what they do, and end up just kind of decent within both archetypes. Case in point: Robin, Mii Swordfighter.

Well, that kind of playstyle is definitely not working if nearly every attack in K. Rool's arsenal is useless. And sadly, going the brute force (hitting hard and KOing quickly) route means that the fighter's attacks need to have high start-up lag to avoid being too good.

 

[~?~]

Well, sure. You can spike him on the sides but most normal players, even including me, would not thing of that. Also Bowser isn't viable. He's just too slow.

I won't be able to respond to ur reply in minutes if you have one. Mainly cause i'm going somewhere. So i'll reply when i can.

Haden isn't wrong. Krool is terribly slow in ground, air and frame data. Armor does no good if I just dash beck and make him whiff his attack and then punish his terribly long end lag. Also, I can easily spike him with links disjointed down air. I do it to snake regularly and snake is much harder to spike. Also, Bowser is easily one of the best heavies and pretty much high tier at this point, same as DK.

 

[TreeChopperVillager]

I'm assuming he's talking about a non-competitive environment, where both characters have some frustrating shenanigans. DK's carry-to-the-edge-of-the-level-and-throw comes to mind.

wait they didn't know that .-.

 

[Haden]

But when Bowsers attacks miss, he will most likely die with a strong enough hit. Well, not die but get knocked off the stage atleast a bit.

And now, i'm done talking to you. I will not respond to anymore messages of yours on this topic.

LOL good Bowsers don't whiff that often. They play patient and punish YOUR whiffed attacks. I don't know a top Bowser that uses slow options outside of ledge trapping.

 

[Jaro235]

Not really. Most heavies that I have encountered make predictable moves and I can usually punish them. It is just that they are usually not at all fun to play against because every player that uses Dedede or K. Rool for example do the exact same thing. It gets old. Even though I win most matches against heavies, I would still rather play against top tier characters because they are at least not playing to troll people.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I'm assuming he's talking about a non-competitive environment, where both characters have some frustrating shenanigans. DK's carry-to-the-edge-of-the-level-and-throw comes to mind.

If the timestamp provided implies that the "suck and ****" (Suicide with Dedede's inhale) is OP then I don't know what to say.

I can't think of a single heavy that's "cheap" in any way. Because of their debilitating disadvantages heavies require a lot of skill to learn and master. If people honestly think heavies are cheap or OP because of some of their moves, they're obviously salty (and probably bad), and ignoring larger issues.

 

[Xelrog]

If people honestly think heavies are cheap or OP because of some of their moves, they're obviously salty (and probably bad)

That is indeed what I was suggesting.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

If people are complaining about heavy fighters being cheap, the only cheap heavyweight out there is Smash 3DS / Wii U Giga Mac. Although his air game is weak, his ground game is quite ridiculous, and capable of wiping out pretty much any fighter in a matter of seconds. And you can forget about trying to run away from him, because he can outrun everyone, except for Sonic and Wario-Man.

Of all the fighters in Smash 3DS / Wii U, Giga Mac would easily be among the cheapest, but what kept Giga Mac in check was that he's a Final Smash transformation, and would revert back to Little Mac after at least 10 seconds have passed. And of course, Final Smashes are typically banned from competitive play, so you would never see Giga Mac in a competitive match anyway.

 

[Quillion]

Not really. Most heavies that I have encountered make predictable moves and I can usually punish them. It is just that they are usually not at all fun to play against because every player that uses Dedede or K. Rool for example do the exact same thing. It gets old. Even though I win most matches against heavies, I would still rather play against top tier characters because they are at least not playing to troll people.

Oh, how nice it would be to have a heavy with a versatile skillset...

 

[TreeChopperVillager]

If people are complaining about heavy fighters being cheap, the only cheap heavyweight out there is Smash 3DS / Wii U Giga Mac.

I don't think anyone was talking about Final smash's

 

[~?~]

I'm shocked that this is even a debate people are having. It's no contest that heavies suffer inherent weaknesses in the Smash franchise, a game in which has generally always favored aggressive, fast options, outside of the few situational characters like Snake who have excessive amounts of tools to deal with the fact that they're slow. Heavies will always seem overpowered at low levels, and excessive sometimes at mid levels, but I stress again, at high levels and ESPECIALLY top levels, there is no room for heavies to breath in this game unless you're Snake.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I don't think anyone was talking about boss's.

You do realize that Giga Mac was never a boss, right? He's a fully playable character in Smash 3DS / Wii U, but lost that status in Smash Ultimate when Little Mac's Final Smash was drastically changed into a Triforce Slash replica.

 

[TreeChopperVillager]

You do realize that Giga Mac was never a boss, right? He's a fully playable character in Smash 3DS / Wii U, but lost that status in Smash Ultimate when Little Mac's Final Smash was drastically changed into a Triforce Slash replica.

Oops , sorry. I meant final smashes lol.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I don't mean to sound elitist nor bash newer players, but I've heard this crummy argument that newbies use against the heavies before too many times in my life and it honestly doesn't deserve the attention it gets. I've been playing Smash since the 64 iteration and been in the community since the late Melee days, and anyone who knows what they are talking about will tell you that heavy characters aren't overpowered. They've been getting progressively better in each iteration for sure, but not enough on a fundamental level for them to reach the point of occupying the higher tiers.

Every new Smash game we get an influx of usually 15-20 year olds who make bold statements like this despite lacking the matchup knowledge, fundamentals, experience and judgement to back their claims; yet a lot of them tend to remain adamant in what they say and can't bother themselves to learn, like the kid from earlier who asserts that "K. Rool is overpowered for reasons we should know at this point". Good luck getting competent players to agree with you on that, buddy.
It's their word vs the veteran high level players and the people who study the game's mechanics alongside the cast's movesets and frame data. It's like weather enthusiasts who think that their argument deserves to be held on the same regard as those crafted by scientists who've dedicated their lives to gather the knowledge on their field and study the data.

Not saying that you shouldn't form an opinion of your own but you also need to shut up and listen. An opinion without research doesn't do much good to anybody. When you are starting out, it's better to ask questions firsts to the people who know. Learn from others. That also applies to me. Letting others teach you is the best way to get far in life.

 

[Alsyght]

Starting from Brawl, as that was the game I started with, heavies have been, and will always be the weakest characters against most of the cast. Take it from someone who subconsciously mains low tiers and heavies (I.e. King Dedede, K. Rool, and Wii Fit).

King Dedede, even buffed, it still possibly top 5 worst character in the game because of his slow movement options, slow frame data, and just slow overall. His boxes are wonky, deplete, and whiff too easily depending on the move. He is HUGE and a lot of characters can D-Smash him on top a god damn platform. Heavy combo food for Diddy and ZSS and a lot of top tier characters. Don’t even get me STARTED on how bullsht that Gordo is. Like...2%, really, Sakurai? Pichu’s stupid thunder jolt can knock it back for 15-30% damage at least, and DDD can barely hit that rodent. Gotta fast fall several Nairs to get a decent combo going on...at least for me. Dedede is crap.

K. Rool is...stupid. Both his projectiles are slow. While the Blunderbuss cannonball it good, many moves (safely projectiles) can’t knock it out the air and you can come in closer to the K. Rool. The krown is exceptionally good, except the alligator goes into a kind of lag when he catches the krown. Then the opponent can come in closer. The krown, when disembodied, can be used AGAINST K Rool and it does a ridiculous amount of damage and knockback to him. He has TWO SHIELD BREAKS technically. And the counter sucks. K Rool is crap.

Bowser, DK, Ganon, Ike, Incineroar, etc, all heavies in some regard. All have their qualities, all have their stupidity.

Y’all just don’t know how to play.

Granted, the characters have their upsides. Their survivability can keep them going longer than most of the cast. K. Rool has an excellent recovery (I call bull**** on it sometimes too, honestly), super armor on a host of his moves, and powerful attacks and two moves that can ground the opponent for some real good kills if the opponent’s mashing is bad. When done properly, K Rool can control a ton of space to close in for a kill.
Dedede is the best at surviving. Played a ZSS and didn’t get killed until like 220 or something. Dedede’s excellent edge-guarding with his multiple jumps and trapping with Gordo.

Heavies aren’t good, but they’re not bad either. Everyone has their qualities, everyone has their weaknesses. Can’t particularly say Diddy or Inkling is perfect, but I haven’t seen threads complaining about them.

If you’re having trouble against a character, learn that characters, watch that character, learn their weaknesses. Had to do that for Sonic, can’t you do it for a heavy? If not, then why complain about something that you can somewhat control?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

At the end of the story though, it's clear that heavy fighters with powerful KO moves have to be hindered by high start-up lag, or else they would most certainly end up feeling cheap.

But let's not forget that the lightweights have their own set of issues, since their quicker attacks are typically hindered by weaker KO power. As such, they have to put in much more effort to make their KOs, and can't afford to mess up against a fighter who can potentially wipe them out with a single strong blow. What does give the lightweights the upper hand is simply being able to quickly interrupt the slower fighters if they have no armor (or the armor is too weak) frames to protect them during their start-up lag periods (and even if they do have active armor frames, grabs outrank armor altogether).

 

[Haden]

At the end of the story though, it's clear that heavy fighters with powerful KO moves have to be hindered by high start-up lag, or else they would most certainly end up feeling cheap.

But let's not forget that the lightweights have their own set of issues, since their quicker attacks are typically hindered by weaker KO power. As such, they have to put in much more effort to make their KOs, and can't afford to mess up against a fighter who can potentially wipe them out with a single strong blow. What does give the lightweights the upper hand is simply being able to quickly interrupt the slower fighters if they have no armor (or the armor is too weak) frames to protect them during their start-up lag periods (and even if they do have active armor frames, grabs outrank armor altogether).

Speed isn't only a gound based or frame data based portion of the equation, as we cannot forget air speed. Characters with air speed and lingering/multi hitbox moves can easily edge guard a heavy and not care about them living to 180%. Heavy characters in this game all suffer from exploitable recoveries, yes, even King K, who has the most exploitable. A newer or casual player might argue against this, but that's because they don't know how to edge guard. Heavies suffer in just about every department, from ground and air speed, frame data, recovery, advantage state (because their combo game isn't as consistent) and disadvantage state (because they are so large), and the only real benefits they have are living at high percents, which I explained doesn't matter, and killing at low percents, which is SO much easier said than done at high levels, because good players with fast characters make life hell for slow frame data.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

It definitely doesn't help that only Bowser has the tough guy mechanic, but even that isn't enough if a fighter's jab can deal more knockback than what his heavy armor can sustain.

 

[OrcarinaBeatbox]

Yes heavies are obviously cheap

It takes an average of 4 hits to kill someone and can easily be cheap shots from people who have no skill but just got lucky.

Heavies are OP and my nephew can prob beat you with a heavy first time playing by just button mashing.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

What’s problematic about heavies in Ultimate is that they have speed as well as power, so they have silly priority. I guess you could call them cheap in certain situations, but that doesn’t mean they’re invincible. Obviously quicker characters like Sonic can overwhelm them quite easily.

My problem with heavies is not that they are super strong, its that they have insane mix ups for 0 reason. Bowser can use side b to easily mix you up if they condition shield. Incineroar has his great normals, great grab game, and super strong command grab side b. DK can use his armored Up-b and kill you at ledge at 90% or use his grab. Cargo throw has mix ups with tech check making sure you dont mash, or he takes you to a ride to the blast zone. Not to mention that some of them just have broken hit boxes (DK). Playing them is even more annoying when you have input lag online. The only heavies that dont have many shield mix ups are charizard, who sucks, and King K Rool. But K Rool makes up for it with an annoying armor mechanic. Overall, heavies often aren’t fun to fight for me, since they have one billion different forms of cheese in order to make up for the fact that they are terrible.

Yes heavies are obviously cheap

It takes an average of 4 hits to kill someone and can easily be cheap shots from people who have no skill but just got lucky.

Heavies are OP and my nephew can prob beat you with a heavy first time playing by just button mashing.

Umm... no? All you do is overwhelm them with frame data. They can’t hit you if you don’t let them breath.

It's almost like they tried to make him a heavy-zoner hybrid imo.

Hybrid characters usually end up getting stuck around mid tier at best. They can do both, but have to sacrifice the strengths that makes true zoners or a true cqc characters great at what they do, and end up just kind of decent within both archetypes. Case in point: Robin, Mii Swordfighter.

Few hybrid characters ever make it big. I would like to say that the links are good examples of hybrid characters done well since they are generally considered High Tier.