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Are Fox and Falco really THAT good?

Dr. Krumm

Smash Apprentice
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Jul 18, 2012
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Classified.
Are Fox and Falcon really that good?**

I'm rather new to competetive melee (by that I mean, watching it) and I must say that it seems to be that the various players that use Marth, C. Falcon and the other high tiers seems to be more effecient. I obviously haven't watched melee as much as many here on the boards and I'm nowhere close to a pro melee player, but looking at the latest tourneys posted at Vgbootcamp and clashtourney, neither of these 2 strongest characters seem to win anything, they get their ass handed to them by 0 - death wombo combos from C. Falcon, Marth, heck, even Ganondorf!

Why are these characters considered sooo good? Am I missing something here!?
 
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-ShadowPhoenix-

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Yes, Fox and Falco are the best characters in this game. You have to factor in that some players are just straight up better than their opponents meaning that spacies can still lose.
 

Kadano

Magical Express
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
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Vienna, Austria
In balanced competitive games, character tiers matter much less than player skill. In chess, white has a statistical advantage of approximately 55-45, but nobody would expect a high-level player to win against a top-level player just because he plays white.
 

Twinkles

Smash Lord
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Mar 5, 2011
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SoCal
you see lots of them get death comboed cuz they are the most popular characters in the game

tons of people play them, so you'll see a lot of them, and if they don't play nearly as good as their opponent, they're combo fodder and get 0-deathed in flashy ways

really good space animals are incredible though, watch more videos/play the game enough and you realize how good both characters can really be
 

SAUS

Smash Ace
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Aug 20, 2008
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866
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Ottawa
They're not so far ahead of the rest of the pack that they just dominate the game. Some people say melee has terrible balance because there are only like 7 playable characters (varies depending on who you ask but I think many people agree on 7). Other people say melee is incredibly balanced because the better player will basically always win (assuming they play a viable character).
 

Zhea

Smash Ace
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Jan 10, 2012
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San Antonio Texas
There is a clear dividing line Between Fox, Falco and the rest of the tier list. Neither sport bad match ups (The closest they have to one is Marth on FD). Everyone below them has at least 2, and Fox is usually one of them. That being said they don't win against any of the top tiers harder than 60-40, and until you reach low tiers, Fox and Falco don't really beat anyone harder then that. Marth and Sheik actually dominate the high-mid and mid tier way harder than Fox or Falco. However both have several losing matchups in the top tier, so it doesn't matter how many 70-30 or 80-20 matchup's they have in the mid tier.
 

soma ghost

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
307
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WNY
Yes. The reason in one word is OPTIONS. Spacies have amazing move sets, so many of their moves having great reward to risk ratios.
The fact that they are so combo-able, as you have noticed is what balances them.
Regarding the above post though - I dont believe it's as much about match ups. What would you consider sheiks bad match ups? I don't believe she has any.
 
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Bones0

Smash Legend
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Aug 31, 2005
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Nah, people just like to john. I would just ignore any comments you hear about tiers/matchups because 90% of people don't know what they're talking about, and the other 10% are biased as ****.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
in a word, yes. the only time they're not the tits is if you're a fox/falco player and in denial.
 

Papa+Stone

Banned via Administration
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Oct 16, 2013
Messages
450
The only people that think they are a substantial amount above the other characters are delusional project m baddies. Fox+falco are easier to handle than sheik or marth for low tiers and are the toughest to play in every aspect
 

lordvaati

Smash Master
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Yes and no.

on one hand, the good aspects of the characters generally outweigh the bad, and they have very favorable matchups over a majority of the cast.
on the other hand, they got kinda steep curves before getting the full potential(case in point: the statement that a full potential Fox is humanly impossible that is sometimes used), and the weaknesses they do have kinda gives other characters an edge(Falco getting served off stage easy due to mediocre recorvery, and Fox being able to be CGed by almost half the characters in the game....even himself.)
 

Landry

Smash Ace
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May 29, 2008
Messages
839
The short answer is yes. The long answer is also yes, just with more explanation.
 

Morbi

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Speculation God, GOML
I feel like Fox is/was one of the most used characters, as such, many are accustomed to his play-style and options. I mean, if you are in competitive Melee, you had better learn the Fox MU. It is just such a common main that many are conditioned to dealing with him. I feel like the same applies to Meta Knight in Brawl. Any top character in any game really, I have a lot more experience in regards to Mortal Kombat. Kabal is equivalent of Fox, he is still the best character, but his options (very good options) are limited and most players are used to the MU. So he isn't as much of a threat.
 

Varist

Smash Lord
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Feb 7, 2011
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1,603
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Austin
Fox and Falco are the "win more" characters

they're offensive machines but they get **** on when you're losing and when you're playing against someone legitimately better than you, as in game sense, all of their match-ups seem impossibly uphill and unforgiving.

That combined with how hard it is to get good with them, and how much experience people have playing against them because they're popular, makes the mediocre Fox/Falco one of the tamest things in this game

If I play someone with my falco and I barely lose, I can just pull out puff and beat them if I play it smart and cheesy because puff doesn't get punished as hard and people have poor knowledge of her

Fox and Falco are like the pinnacle of Melee that you elevate to when the broken characters like Marth and Sheik are no longer enough to sate your thirst

When you first switch you'll be way worse but their learning curve is so high and their tech floor so unforgiving that it'll force you to reach transcendental levels of good

and then you just become a monster and that's why they're the top of the tier list.

If you want to beat your friends, pick marth or sheik

if you want to win tournaments, also probably pick marth or sheik but falco works now too

if you want mango to come to your house and give you a golden statue of his nuts and a case of his favorite booze before flying back home to his baby mamma you can play fox
 

Papa+Stone

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If you want to win in project m dont pick fox and falco because project m players are scrubs and will come to your house and shoot your wii
 

Papa+Stone

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Oct 16, 2013
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To fully understand melee in all of its complexity requires that you have a mindgames that can deadlift 300-350 lbs. ken wrote a book on this philosophy
 

Papa+Stone

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Papa, from nooga's thead. I like your opinions, tell me more about everything melee. Help plz.
I see that you have consulted me for some smashing advice, and I can assure you that you have come to the right man. Just a few credentials about myself are that I have the single strongest Doc in the southern region to date, and have been awarded the award for fastest improving young player on a single occasion(i only got it once because i havent been in the eye of the media too long) so you have a good idea of my sincerity. Lets get started.

Punishing-
The single most important aspect for all upcoming or intermediate level players who are looking for a way to improve their play and are serious about getting better. Armada himself agrees with this notion and has stressed the importance of a solid punish game on msny occasions. Having the ability to several cripple your opponent based on a single opening is seriously useful and every top player has been working on it, so you should too. All exciting combos stem from punish practice and make the game more fun to watch, and falcon himself is rather weak when he wiffs his punishes. If you neglect your punish game you might as well be playing project m which is filled with quitters and whiners who dont have the winner spirit to practice and improve themselves, so they nerf whatever works.

How to improve your punishes-
Working on punishes is very character specific; no matter how similar two characters may seem they each functiob differently and will likewise require different inputs to punish and will be able to react with punishes on different circumstances. The methods used also drastically change depending on the character receiving your punishment. However practicing is not nearly as complex. There are two steps to acheive punishes solid enough for your own combo video; the first is to go practice against low level cpus or go to training mode and see what attacks link into others at specific percents. This will boost your familiarity with your characters moveset and allow you to adapt on the fly, improvise combos, and understand your options and your limits. If you do not understand your character then you will be too focused on the technical aspects such as being fast enough to keep up with your opponent or simply connect attacks that you will have no room to focus on the mental aspects of the game. Your characters sbilities should be second nature to you before you can begin making progress, this comes from someone who has been self trained and understands every level of progress from pain staking experience. The second step is simply seeing how quickly you can react out of your ground attacks, aerials, and shffls, which will build your familiarity and also your speed with your character. There is a reason that so few falcons are capable of doing his uair juggles which looks simple enough to most viewers, and this is because they simply dont understand the timing or do not have the timings muscle memorized.

Tech skill-
Tech skill is essential for all the reasons listed above, as a means to get your character to do what you need. Once you have your tech skill down(timings, lcancels, wavedashes, and any character specific tech, which you can look for in the character boards) you should not have to worry about it any more. If youre the kind of person who slips up easily then you can always try warmups in the morning. Practice for tech skill is simple enough, just repeat techniques until you have them down, and if youre not physically fast enough and need quick improvement, then i suggest the marble champ workout which involves caressing a large pink rubber eraser 500 times per finger a day, 5 days a week. Soon enough you shoukd be conditioned to attemped even the hardest of lcancels.

Fundamentals-
Fundamentals are the mental aspects of the game and include spacing and mindgames. First of all mindgames is a fake ass bs word made up by nerds attempting to sound cool when telling people they play professional video games(which does not sound cool at all and if you want proof then look up kens survivor interviews where he fondles his leg a little too much and makes melee players look the lamest people ever, albeit pretty true). Mindgames is simply using your mind and abilities to outsmart your opponent in combat, and this includes dashdancing, feinting attacks(every single one so watch out for it) and waiting. These are the extent of melee mindgames- scaring your opponent into think you will do one option and instead surprising them with another. This is again acheived by putting large amounts of pressure on your opponent to condition them into expecting offensive pressure, and then following up by either jumping, waiting, or dashdancing while you bait out a response. It is a very simple process and the fastest way to improve is to make friends with smashers, attend smashfests, or go to tournaments. If you are too uncool to play with smashnerds(a rare circumstance) then you can always pretend when playing alone or you can kidnap helpless sorority girls and force them to play. Also a sidenote: if youve seen the documentary then you mightve heard prog/an urkel refer to mango/nerd jesus as 'the natural'. This is bs and only makes him seem like some impenetrable beast. All that happened is mango plays more than everyone except for maybe wizzrobe and this nerdy facade is where he got his powers from. This applies to everyone except for me and a few others like dashizwiz perhaps. You too can be as good as mango if you want to and follow an effective training regimine.

The othet fundamental is spacing which is pretty much becoming familiar with every one of your opponents options per character and understand the range at which they can threaten you while staying in a same range and vice versa. Maneuvering around these ranges stresses expert use of dashdancing and wavedashing. If you play a character wothout either then you must learn to attack the opponent at every opportunity they expose themselves since you have no maneuvering ability, which is impossible against high level players even mango who plays cideo games all day.

I hope you enjoyed my guide and found it helpful, and hope you consult me in the future for all of your melee related needs.
 

Charlesz

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 6, 2007
Messages
2,043
Falco is overrated. Just because people can't deal with lasers, he's suddenly the best or the 2nd best character in the game lmao.
 

JKJ

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 23, 2012
Messages
541
Location
New York
In short, yes.
It's difficult to play them, yes, but they are the best characters in the game. They require incredible technical skill, but they are very hard to beat when they do not make technical mistakes and the opponent is forced to simply outplay the Fox or Falco player. For instance, in the Peach matchup, if the opposing Fox/Falco player messes up their techskill, they will get gimped, downsmashed, and otherwise demolished. If they play on point, the matchup is in their favor. If a spacie gets shield grabbed, they don't do well, but if they do play technically consistent, all of their difficult matchups become substantially less difficult. A spacie who knows the tricks of the various matchups and is technically consistent is nearly insurmountable (granted they are a smart player besides). This is all coming from a double spacie main who constantly gets gimped and plays technically inconsistent.
 

EpixAura

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Messages
474
Location
Greenville, NC
Basically, yes, although I feel Falco is a tad overrated having some potential slightly disadvantageous matchups, although they still hardly qualify as 45:55. His position in second is a result of his tournament results, and given how many people play him, it's only natural he places well. His position is second is still most likely where his belongs, though.
Spacies are kind of a double-edged sword. Yes, they are good, Fox is the best character in the game, having no bad matchups and only a few scenarios where he's at a disadvantage (Marth on FD, for example). On the other hand, everyone knows the spacie matchup. They can easily exploit all of Fox/Falco's weaknesses much easier than they can vs. a Sheik or Marth. Second, spacies are much more technical, but this has been touched on already. Just know that it's hard to get far with Fox without some very solid techskill (and decision making).

Regarding the amount of 0-death on spacies, they really are easy to combo. Sometimes it can seem pretty easy to take entire stocks from them with one combo and a good edgeguard (it kind of is), but spacies dominate the neutral game so hard that most of the time they're the ones with the momentum and combos, even if they can't 0-death other characters as easily as other characters 0-death them.
 

Rath420

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 14, 2014
Messages
13
There is a clear dividing line Between Fox, Falco and the rest of the tier list. Neither sport bad match ups (The closest they have to one is Marth on FD). Everyone below them has at least 2, and Fox is usually one of them. That being said they don't win against any of the top tiers harder than 60-40, and until you reach low tiers, Fox and Falco don't really beat anyone harder then that. Marth and Sheik actually dominate the high-mid and mid tier way harder than Fox or Falco. However both have several losing matchups in the top tier, so it doesn't matter how many 70-30 or 80-20 matchup's they have in the mid tier.
Hey Zhea, can you post a link to where you're getting these match up numbers?
 

Jordan

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
4
Location
NorCal
They are on the top of the tier list for good reason. They have so much versatility and they can string together tons of tech skills that are just crazy.
 

Rath420

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 14, 2014
Messages
13
Oh I'm not arguing the validity of their tier, they are clearly the best characters in the game. I was just curious where the "facts" came from :p
 

Rath420

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 14, 2014
Messages
13
I think that Fox is still the best. I play IC and Falco, but the speed, up-smash, and u-air of Fox are pretty game changing
 
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