Anyone finding that skill progress is slower?

[FrashFrash]

In melee, I could adapt to my opponents and beat them after I played multiple games, and it would stick with me, but I find its just not happening in this game.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Well, it is a new game. You're learning the science of this new engine. It takes more than a handful of matches to do that.

 

[Deleted member]

It's probably just because your options are much more limited in this game. Melee had tons of ATs, but SSB4 doesn't have many left that haven't been patched out. The lack of options just makes it harder to come up with a good strategy to beat your opponent, so your skill progress will be slower.

 

[Prawn]

It's probably just because your options are much more limited in this game. Melee had tons of ATs, but SSB4 doesn't have many left that haven't been patched out. The lack of options just makes it harder to come up with a good strategy to beat your opponent, so your skill progress will be slower.

Nope.


Game is new. You aren't that good yet. No one is really.

 

[cardboardowl]

It's probably just because your options are much more limited in this game. Melee had tons of ATs, but SSB4 doesn't have many left that haven't been patched out. The lack of options just makes it harder to come up with a good strategy to beat your opponent, so your skill progress will be slower.

Or it's a game people arent used to

 

[Darklink401]

In a couple of years we'll see people who explore this game's true potential.

Just look back and remember how competitive Melee was back in '04, compared to a decade later.

 

[Flawed]

I think the progress is slower because of how strange the engine is.

-Combos look like they should work and then they don't, so you second guess yourself next time
-Less options in general
-More lag on landing

A lot of these things make it generally harder to make it to high level. I was joking saying that people who didn't play Melee, PM or brawl will do great because they wont be trying to make things work that don't work anymore

 

[san.]

People haven't even memorized most of their combo options yet, kinda lazy.

 

[Shaya]

Air dodges are very good in this game, just not for landing with. They take away most of the combo-game players of Melee/64 are used to (at the very least it doesn't overly boon characters with extremely fast 'sex kick' aerials).

People need to get more used to the positions characters travel in and apply frame traps, much like in Brawl. Frame traps are buffed from Brawl, combos are about the same (seriously). Force people to air dodge late or bait the air dodge/just attack faster. Immediate air dodging is practically the only way to avoid follow ups (or jumping, but you should be frame trapping around this too; i.e. don't use your double jump) but that in itself is very easily abused.

Otherwise, the loss of Brawl's buffering kills a lot of "muscle memory" tech skill players developed. Single option buffers are kinda cop-out, so everyone from the Brawl era has to learn to time things, and people from the Melee era have to relearn their timings completely because everything is different/slightly slower.

We need people explore the buffer engine in full so we know all the options, once we do we can likely start playing faster/optimally. Right now it's rather limited it looks like :<, and no automatic C-stick buffering like in melee either (a massive crutch to mechanical gameplay really unappreciated by Melee players) and we're looking at the hardest game to be precise with since 64.

 

[Tagxy]

@ Shaya Wait whaaat? Buffering is out or different from Brawl? If different then how?

Also it probably is harder to progress in skill compared to melee, but better players definitely still differentiate themselves.

 

[Shaya]

Single input buffer only.
I'm pretty sure it will always prioritise the latest input, except maybe shield? Not sure.

Turn around grab out of shield is hard-er now. Turn around everything is harder now '
We've been waiting for wiiu/c-stick to assess the damage, things look grim.

 

[MegaMissingno]

It's probably just because your options are much more limited in this game. Melee had tons of ATs, but SSB4 doesn't have many left that haven't been patched out. The lack of options just makes it harder to come up with a good strategy to beat your opponent, so your skill progress will be slower.

There is some truth to this, it means you can't get as far just by hitting the lab solo. ATs offered an easy starting point you could learn even when there aren't any humans around to train with, and by the time you've got them under your belt you probably have some idea of what you need to learn next from human competition.

On the other hand though, online means humans are more accessible than ever. But it's still easy to get lost, having to start by throwing yourself to the sharks can be rough and you can easily get overwhelmed not really knowing what to do with them.

 

[LightLV]

It's because there are alot of oppressive strategies in this game. In general, there are some characters that will put you on a landslide disadvantage if you play offensively. There aren't many options for you to open them up, either. Which means you have to force them to open themselves up, which means you have to play completely different than before.

...If you play this game with a melee mindset, you're just going to lose very hard to players who mastered brawl.

 

[Cornstalk]

Single input buffer only.
I'm pretty sure it will always prioritise the latest input, except maybe shield? Not sure.

Turn around grab out of shield is hard-er now. Turn around everything is harder now '
We've been waiting for wiiu/c-stick to assess the damage, things look grim.

Thank you! I had been trying to figure out why that kept happening to me on the 3DS version. Empty landing and trying to do a Smash resulted in a Tilt and Pivot F-Smashing was monstrously hard. At least now I know why it was happening to I can hopefully adjust my timing.



More on topic...
Smash 4 is probably the most cerebral smash yet. Tech skills come down to knowing the basic button to press to achieve what you want in the given situation. The rest is on your knowledge to use it effectively. How do you avoid that Samus player's projectiles and punish them for always rolling away with your chosen character? How do you stop Diddy from grabbing you or escape the D-Throw to U-Air safely if he does?

I find myself concentrating way more on what I need to do to defeat my opponent then the button inputs I have to go through. Melee and Project M may be more technical with all their crazy combos and extra inputs, but I'm enjoying Smash 4 more because I finally feel like I'm fighting my opponent instead of myself because of repeatedly failing basics like L-canceling.

 

[Kozmiic27]

This is a new game, I dont think anyone other than the pros has a fully consistant playstyle thats readable and adaptable to. Wait a bit until everyones all settled in.

 

[Undrdog]

I personally attribute it to a handful of things.

"For Glory" Mode is a Trap
Despite how good connections tend to be, there is input lag. Now this isn't that big of a deal in all honesty. The issue lies in learning the game through For Glory. Things work online that don't work offline. Online you can throw out hitboxes left, right, and center and odds are your opponent will run into them on their own accord. This allows for players to become complacent and stop advancing. Another issue with input lag is that it limits a person's speed at the game while still remaining reactionary.

Disclaimer: I am fully aware that there are quite a few well known players that can play online and look amazing. This comes from having an intimate understanding of both the game and what it takes to win online. This doesn't apply when it comes to learning the game as described in the opening post.


Lack of Movement ATs
Melee had wavedashing, L-Canceling, and a plethora of character specific ATs that improved a player's skill without needing a sparring partner. Being able to zip around the stage while timing out attacks was key to improving your game. And as mentioned before, could be done on your own time.

Brawl lost a lot of these movement ATs and the game was also slower as a whole. That being said, Brawl also suffered a bit from this. The reason why people don't seem to remember this is two fold. Character Specific ATs did exist and helped make up for the loss of wavedashing and L-Canceling; and Metaknight could dominate without the need for advanced maneuvering.


Too Few Obvious High Tiers
While some characters in Melee took a while to be considered "good", there were obvious high tier candidates. Brawl had Metaknight and Snake. But Smash 4? Mew2King was really the first person to speak out. All he did was mention what characters looked really good to him from the start. People initially took it out of context and started grinding out games with Bowser. lol Despite this just being his first impression, people had little else to cling on to.

Now I'm not saying this is a bad thing. It just goes to show that at the moment the player base has spread its resources thin. Eagerly testing each character for any sort of potential. I honestly don't think people are putting enough time or effort into individual characters before moving onto the next one.

 

[Darklink401]

Hadn't it been established by prepatch that Rosalina, Sheik, Yoshi, ZSS and Greninja were the top tiers?

Cuz it seemed pretty obvious to me.

 

[Undrdog]

Hadn't it been established by prepatch that Rosalina, Sheik, Yoshi, ZSS and Greninja were the top tiers?

Cuz it seemed pretty obvious to me.

EDITED: Don't want to cause a tier discussion in this thread.

 

[Darklink401]

EDITED: Don't want to cause a tier discussion in this thread.

It wouldn't be cuz this is prepatch.

Irrelevant for the most part, although some can hold true, but the point is made.

 

[Pyr]

I'm finding adapting from SSBM/P:M/Brawl to SSB4 harder then it was from Melee to Brawl. I really think it's a mindset that the games are similar or the same. I broke that really, really quickly for Melee to Brawl because, well, they are 2 very different games.

The engine for 4 is very similar to Brawl, so that's where the difficulty for me is. It's harder to break the "similar" feel and realize that this is an entirely new game with new everything. Expectations cannot be the same as they used to be, and new adaptations/techniques/methodologies need to be developed. In a lot of lurking here, I think that's the general issue for a lot of people: After 3 Smash games, and 1 other unofficial smash game, some expectations have definitely developed and some general gameplay feels have developed. I think improvement will speed up for people having issues once those expectations are broken and a new feel is developed.

It's a different game. It isn't the same as the previous game(s). Anyone wanting to become good at it should treat it like they would of SSB when it was released. Even with 3(4) games under us, most of our experiences there is null and void.

 

[PCHU]

More on topic...
Smash 4 is probably the most cerebral smash yet. Tech skills come down to knowing the basic button to press to achieve what you want in the given situation. The rest is on your knowledge to use it effectively. How do you avoid that Samus player's projectiles and punish them for always rolling away with your chosen character? How do you stop Diddy from grabbing you or escape the D-Throw to U-Air safely if he does?

I find myself concentrating way more on what I need to do to defeat my opponent then the button inputs I have to go through. Melee and Project M may be more technical with all their crazy combos and extra inputs, but I'm enjoying Smash 4 more because I finally feel like I'm fighting my opponent instead of myself because of repeatedly failing basics like L-canceling.

As far as button presses go, I never felt like I was fighting the controller unless I messed up something as Fox or Falco.
If I ever feel like I can't even use basic techs like l-canceling (PM wifi), I just change my playstyle and pick someone who can do well without it (Link, DK, Ganon).

The game is a lot more basic and I'd guess it's what people mean when they're talking about the "way Smash is meant to be played", but every time I fight against someone, even really good players, it never feels like I'm really doing much.
The only way I know it's a good player is if they can actually execute their followups AND manage to evade mine, setting up a strong defensive game or camp game to where none of my setups work, which just leads me to chase them around the stage until I catch them in one of their numerous rolls.
The best option (in my opinion) is to just run away, which sucks because it completely removes the SMASH aspect from the game (and I would say it's teaching them bad habits, but in a game that rewards it, I see no reason not to if you enjoy it).
I feel like the only thing this game does differently is remove momentum from momentum-based players; you send someone flying and you have to wait a few seconds before you can really do anything (which could be fixed if more characters had ascension speed like Sheik/Fox do), or you have to run through an obstacle course before you actually get to the "meat" of your opponent (which could be fixed if slower characters had projectile-invulnerable frames on nairs or at least something with real priority and speed).

I really did think it was cool at first, being that much closer to fighting my opponent, but the whole thing comes off as homogenized and kinda takes away from what helped to define players before, especially with the overall range nerf.
I'm glad you enjoy the closer interactions and more basic styles and I know it's what a lot of people wanted, and maybe it's because I've hardly fought against people who can actually beat me, but I feel like every match is the same handful of reads and mixups; it's like playing Tager again, but in a game full of Ragnas.
I'm eager for this game to prove me wrong.