Anyone else + Ultimate's DLC = underwhelming?

[Arthur97]

well as someone who was in both circles I can assure you both were well received

Hmm, well XC2 was not without it's quite loud detractors. Though, I'll admit, not as thrilled about it after what 3 did to it.

Also, do be wary of people yelling for something on the internet. Ridley was highly requested too, but then just kinda fell off after his reveal.

 

[Oracle Link]

idk about the latter two, but Waluigi has long seemed like a common request to me, and in Geno's case a lot of people had a complete ****ing meltdown when Sephiroth's trailer confirmed he was not going to be a playable fighter

Im also not sure on Skullkid as Impa (And for some reason Urbosa) Seem pretty wished for too!
But Believe Me Bandana dee is one of the Most Wished for Nintendo Charas!

 

[BritishGuy54]

I think Nintendo kinda shot themselves in the foot with all the third parties and the hype machine. I think that might have a large amount to do with why some people seem to resent first party picks so much. Especially for DLC. The first party DLC probably would have gone over better to varying degrees with the Byleths probably causing the most salt if Smash 4 and especially Ultimate's DLC wasn't so inundated with third party picks. However, now they are expected to just keep pumping out third parties it seems to the point most first party fighters seem to be seen as less worthy or "hype."

In other words, is it really sustainable? Not to mention, it means more in licensing fees which is probably why so many of them are DLC. How are people going to react now if several third parties end up cut because of the hassle and the need to make cuts anyway?

It’s a good point. It brings up the point of:
‘Is a celebration of Nintendo incompatible with a celebration of gaming as a whole?’

Smash tries to please everyone. But there’s always a debate within a debate within another debate. Western VS Eastern, Retro VS Modern, Genre VS Genre.

Or is Smash covering one too many niches? There are only so many Steves and Soras, that Smash can’t please everyone.

Perhaps it’s a difference between recurring casts (Mario, Kirby), and non-recurring casts (Pokémon, Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, Mother). Mario can represent himself from every mainline Mario game, but Marth cannot represent every protagonist from every game. And there’s Zelda which seems to try both methods in a way.

And then the Smash Ballot… it’s fair to say now that it is somewhat outdated. The Ballot was cast in 2015, nearly a decade ago, and we’ve had many new games, both Nintendo, and third-party since then.

Would it be a bad thing if Smash decreased its roster, and focused more on Nintendo characters? It would be ‘safe’, sure, but it would be a celebration of Nintendo’s history. Or culling the more ‘retro’ characters in favour of more modern and/or timeless characters?

The hype that each DLC character had or lacked divided the community deeply, and I’m unsure if it can recover.

 

[Oracle Link]

I think Nintendo kinda shot themselves in the foot with all the third parties and the hype machine. I think that might have a large amount to do with why some people seem to resent first party picks so much. Especially for DLC. The first party DLC probably would have gone over better to varying degrees with the Byleths probably causing the most salt if Smash 4 and especially Ultimate's DLC wasn't so inundated with third party picks. However, now they are expected to just keep pumping out third parties it seems to the point most first party fighters seem to be seen as less worthy or "hype."

In other words, is it really sustainable? Not to mention, it means more in licensing fees which is probably why so many of them are DLC. How are people going to react now if several third parties end up cut because of the hassle and the need to make cuts anyway?

No wonder byleth is hated hes a promotional pick!
And Fire emblem by all means shouldnt have more characters than zelda!

 

[Arthur97]

It’s a good point. It brings up the point of:
‘Is a celebration of Nintendo incompatible with a celebration of gaming as a whole?’

Smash tries to please everyone. But there’s always a debate within a debate within another debate. Western VS Eastern, Retro VS Modern, Genre VS Genre.

Or is Smash covering one too many niches? There are only so many Steves and Soras, that Smash can’t please everyone.

Perhaps it’s a difference between recurring casts (Mario, Kirby), and non-recurring casts (Pokémon, Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, Mother). Mario can represent himself from every mainline Mario game, but Marth cannot represent every protagonist from every game. And there’s Zelda which seems to try both methods in a way.

And then the Smash Ballot… it’s fair to say now that it is somewhat outdated. The Ballot was cast in 2015, nearly a decade ago, and we’ve had many new games, both Nintendo, and third-party since then.

Would it be a bad thing if Smash decreased its roster, and focused more on Nintendo characters? It would be ‘safe’, sure, but it would be a celebration of Nintendo’s history. Or culling the more ‘retro’ characters in favour of more modern and/or timeless characters?

The hype that each DLC character had or lacked divided the community deeply, and I’m unsure if it can recover.

They simply went too "big" though I'm not one of the ones that think the third party picks were always for the better. I think they should stay to some degree of course, but trimmed down heavily to stuff like Sonic, Mega Man, Banjo and Kazooie, and maybe Pac-Man. Bayo, unfortunately, likely isn't leaving due to Nintendo all but owning the series.

And, yeah, if they just focus on Nintendo, they might could work on how to address some issues like Ganondorf not being treated with proper respect, or how do you represent Fire Emblem when it has so many protagonists? Like, it may not be as big as Zelda, but Zelda also has far fewer options. Like, you can do Impa. Anything else is a one off, and even Impa would likely be just representing one of the Impas as they vary a lot. Skull Kid? More or less a one off. Pretty much any requested Zelda character has no more merit being in than simply being attached to the series. Now, you can argue that happened with Rosalina, and it kind of did, but she's had a strong spin off presence since to keep her relevant. Then there's the clone resource issue where FE is just kind of bloated, but then, so is Zelda. Whether you like FE or not, it's not as simple as just, oh Zelda should have more cause then you have to answer who, and then you should answer why.

Either way, I absolutely don't want them culling the retro Nintendo fighters. Though I'd like to see Mr. Game & Watch go back to his pre-Ultimate style. Either way, it's fun having whacky and random NES reps. Or the fun weirdness of Piranha Plant. Stuff you don't get if you focus on hype. It allows for more lesser known fighters, and that can be a fun thing.

Look at it this way, if Smash were made today with Ultimate's DLC mentality, we probably never would have gotten Captain Falcon as a fighter, let alone several F-Zero stages, and does anyone think that's a good thing?

 

[Oracle Link]

They simply went too "big" though I'm not one of the ones that think the third party picks were always for the better. I think they should stay to some degree of course, but trimmed down heavily to stuff like Sonic, Mega Man, Banjo and Kazooie, and maybe Pac-Man. Bayo, unfortunately, likely isn't leaving due to Nintendo all but owning the series.

And, yeah, if they just focus on Nintendo, they might could work on how to address some issues like Ganondorf not being treated with proper respect, or how do you represent Fire Emblem when it has so many protagonists? Like, it may not be as big as Zelda, but Zelda also has far fewer options. Like, you can do Impa. Anything else is a one off, and even Impa would likely be just representing one of the Impas as they vary a lot. Skull Kid? More or less a one off. Pretty much any requested Zelda character has no more merit being in than simply being attached to the series. Now, you can argue that happened with Rosalina, and it kind of did, but she's had a strong spin off presence since to keep her relevant. Then there's the clone resource issue where FE is just kind of bloated, but then, so is Zelda. Whether you like FE or not, it's not as simple as just, oh Zelda should have more cause then you have to answer who, and then you should answer why.

Either way, I absolutely don't want them culling the retro Nintendo fighters. Though I'd like to see Mr. Game & Watch go back to his pre-Ultimate style. Either way, it's fun having whacky and random NES reps. Or the fun weirdness of Piranha Plant. Stuff you don't get if you focus on hype. It allows for more lesser known fighters, and that can be a fun thing.

Look at it this way, if Smash were made today with Ultimate's DLC mentality, we probably never would have gotten Captain Falcon as a fighter, let alone several F-Zero stages, and does anyone think that's a good thing?

No Zelda Character has value eh lets see:

Impa obviously you already mentioned her but do you know that she could easily be an echo for Sheik yet they Chose Chrome whos game already had two other main Characters?

Skullkid is by definition not a one off not even close The Skull kid from Majoras Mask specifically appeared in OOT (Without the mask), MM, Cadence of hyrule and HW And The Skullkid race also appeared in TP! These are 4 Game with skullkids in them now for the mask it appears
in ALBW and Smash for example! Skullkid/ the Mask also frequently appears in merchandise on the same level as Sheik! So Nintendo knows both of them are popular! also If You take into account that zelda has less spinoffs than mario than Skullkid has appeared basically just as many times as Rosalina!

Octoroks are the most iconic enemys of 2d Zelda and the 2d Versions of them have SOOO Much Moveset Potential from tentacles, to ink, to rocks, to blowing up like a ballon Octoroks can be easily turned into a smash character yet sakurai chose pirahna plant a in relation much less Important enemy from an already over stuffed Franchise!

On the left you can see a bunch of playable Gorons
Gorons while not having a single reapering character a a very reacuring race (In haldf of all Zelda Games BTW) and the rotating cast argument should by all accounts apply to them! If you dont wanna do that you could just make Biggoron (PH) or a normal one playable!

Shall i go on? I have atleast 2 more characters i could use to disprove your argument!
The Rotating Cast= More Characters argument is just a bad excuse to justify the mistreatment of legacy franchises and Characters like Skullkid and Magolor! And it doesnt even make sense considering many also wanna cut down link to only his adult version!

 

[Arthur97]

You've kinda proven my point actually. There are various Impas, but then you give me a character that only had prominence once with everything else being minor rolls if they're even canon at all, and he could make for a really good moveset, but he's about as important as say, Zant (and you actually tried to pull the collection spin off where he didn't even make the base roster in a game dedicated to the series). I mean, you literally threw in an octorok. And in that same argument you call Mario "overstuffed" while saying legacy franchises are disrespected when...you don't get any more legacy than Mario. He's Mario. He is the king. If franchise merit is the benchmark, the series should have more.

Sounds more like you have some extreme bias considering characters of less importance, or even non characters at all, as having more value than literal protagonists because you think the series deserves it more. And, hey, not like I'm particularly fond of, say, Three Houses either, but the fact is that Zelda in particular has a very static roster (role wise, yes I know the Zeldas and Links are usually different) with some side characters, sure, but they aren't exactly stars of the show. I'm all for boosting both Zelda and Kirby's fighter count. Though I'd probably limit Zelda to adding an Impa and OoT/TP Link for his classic moveset as well as fixing Ganondorf who would essentially be a new fighter then with maybe some more tweeks to Toon and Young. Not saying you couldn't even add Skullkid (I've had ideas for a non clone Dark Meta Knight after all), but don't act like he deserves to be in it and FE stole your lunch.

Also, I never said they didn't have value.

And rotating cast does indeed have value as an argument. I'll use myself as an example. I am far more interesting in using Chrom, Lucina, and, well, one of the Robins than I am, well, pretty much any of the other main characters from a character standpoint. If the roster was just like...Marth and Ike, I wouldn't be too thrilled. Meanwhile, for the most part, if you check the box of a Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf, you've appeal to large swaths of the Zelda fanbase with anything else really being kinda niche by comparison. There is a reason HW went over so much more smoothly than FEW. FE is a much, much more fractured fanbase.

And, for your information, pretty sure TH was already out, and had been for a while by the time the Byleths were announced, so how are they any more promotional than anyone else? If any fighter was promotional, it was DQ Hero.

 

[Perkilator]

I guess if there’s an underwhelming aspect of the DLC in general, it’s that Ultimate doesn’t do what, for example, Dragon Ball FighterZ does and add a DLC fighter’s data into the game even if you haven’t purchased them yet. There’s so many thing you could do with this:

• Have DLC characters appear on other DLC characters’ Spirit Boards (for example, Banjo as Kuma on Kazuya’s Spirit Board) and Classic Mode routes

Now that we know that there are going to be around four new Spirit Events coming in 2024 starting in January*, hopefully the DLC fighters will be used as puppet fighters for the Spirit Battles.

*I know the tweet says for events in total, but considering how many new games came out since Evil Ryu's Spirit Battle among first parties alone, I feel like four events in total isn't really enough for even half of those games.

 

[MasterCheef]

Underwhelming SSBU DLC characters in order

1 Byleth = a 1 trick pony , & with terrible release timing
2 Min-Min = The worst way to start off a second fighter's pass , & unappealing game-play
3 Joker = a mini swordie who benefits from taking damage
4 Sephiroth = Hype he got in , & , disappointing game-play
5 Hero = Hype for casual play , & , not much else
6 Sora = the Sky is the limit , literally , for who can get in , & , gameplay = boring

Now that we know that there are going to be around four new Spirit Events coming in 2024 starting in January*, hopefully the DLC fighters will be used as puppet fighters for the Spirit Battles.

I get the impression this is a way of announcing playable SSBU DLC , without announcing it,

Why focus on Amiibo events , with no new Amiibo , & Noah & Mio , Amiibo coming out in January ?