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I think you all would feel better about the roster and the DLC if you kept your expectations low and did away with the made-up rulebook on what characters are most likely/most deserving to get in, which quite frankly has just always been people doing unhealthy mental gymnastics to make them hopeful that their specific wishlist will be granted while also giving them "justification" to rage when it doesn't happen. You can't feel disappointed or underwhelmed when you weren't expecting much in the first place.
And yeah, it'd be ideal if everyone could get what they want, but given the size of the community and how massive the theoretical pool of characters is to draw from (at this point, practically any video game character ever that didn't originate from a movie/anime/etc), that's physically impossible. Ultimate's roster is huge, but nowhere near large enough to even begin to cover that.
The only fighters I care about are Joker and Sephiroth as far as the DLC is concerned.
I acknowledge that there are quite a few iconic picks, such as the DQ guys, and Banjo, but I don't care much for them tbh.
The only fighters I actually hate are Byleth and Pyra/Mythra (even more). The former is just another FE character, while the latter is extremely annoying.
With the exception of Sephiroth in the 2nd season pass, I think it's the worse of the two out right now. Extremely underwhelming. The first season pass was great aside from Byleth.
In my case, after the Plant and Incineroar, I had no expectations left, and I was never in the speculation scene - not until pre-Ultimate, and only a little bit, so had no conception at all on who was likely or not. It's just that this selection doesn't suit me at all (with the exception of Banjo).
In my case, after the Plant and Incineroar, I had no expectations left, and I was never in the speculation scene - not until pre-Ultimate, and only a little bit, so had no conception at all on who was likely or not. It's just that this selection doesn't suit me at all (with the exception of Banjo).
I get the impression (not just from you) that people feel they need to have played the game a character is from to have any appreciation for the character. In my case, that means I wouldn’t care about Joker, Hero, Terry, MinMin, Steve, Pythra (I actually do hate them), or Kazuya. Or like half the base game roster. Like look at R.O.B, if having played with the character was a prerequisite, absolutely no one would touch R.O.B, but they do because he’s fun, has a ton of personality and fits the cast. I just think it’s good to be open-minded about how the character objectively exists within smash, and not just set yourself up for disappointment because you don’t like the idea of the character in theory.
I feel like we're talking about two different things here : the character as a "person", who he is, what he represents ; and the character as a moveset, how he plays and how to play against him.
I also care about the moveset, but my main preoccupation is if it translates well the game(s) the character comes from. From what I've read, that part was done great in both pass, but I cannot judge.
My greatest problem with the DLC right now is just too slow.
If there's one thing that stayed consistent with FP1 was that it was continuous. We'd never go too many months without new content. Yes, discussion towards the Square characters stalled big time (since it's as old as late 2018), but that's a far as bad goes. Let's just compare the gaps:
From Piranha Plant to Joker: 2 months
From Joker to Hero: 3 months
From Hero to Banjo: 2 months
From Banjo to Terry: 2 months
From Terry to Byleth: 2 months
And now here's FP2:
From Byleth to Min Min: 5 months
From Min Min to Steve: 4 months
From Steve to Sephiroth: 2 months
From Sephiroth to Pyra/Mythra: 2 months
From Pyra/Mythra to Kazuya: 4 months
And that's not all. When the first pass was announced, Nintendo set January 2020 as their deadline, and they barely finished all five characters before it ended. The second pass from day 1 was set to finish before December 31st this year, regardless of a pandemic happening or not. We're still a solid six months away from it and after what happened last time, I have no reason to believe this last character won't take a long while to be announced. And it's just so boring. I like FP2's choices, but I just can't tell myself to speculate as I used to back in 2019.
...I mean, Pass 1 and the Bonus DLC was released within 1 year(and the work started at least by September 2018 or earlier), so it still took more than a full year for it to be actually complete. Development-wise, that is. In other words, it wasn't a single year overall. Only Pass 1 was, assuming Joker started work starting in January. And if he didn't? That just shows why they needed more than a year. If it was going for about 2 years, they'd have spread it out just as much, revealing Joker quite a bit later(probably E3?).
Pass 2 was given two years, and we know it needed it. The quickest it'd be done is maybe a year and a half, if lucky. But we saw that Rex had to be cut due to technical issues, suggesting Pyra and Mythra took a while to fully finish up. Being they're clones of each other, it was easier than a regular double character like Zelda and Sheik are. Steve/Alex and Min Min had gameplay-related issues that required a lot of work.
Now keeping even in mind with that, to get it out in one year, they'd have to cut characters. Steve/Alex and Min Min are very development heavy characters. Take those away, and maybe they'd just hit 2020. ...So instead of giving a severely bad amount of crunch time, they set it for 2 years. Also, keep in mind Steve/Alex still had issues after release that required patches. It's boring, but they blatantly need that development time to have an acceptably playable character. They can't function if they give little time to create. That, and let's be real, only Joker and Hero had development-heavy mechanics in all of Pass 1(and PP). Meanwhile, Transformation has proven to be a difficult mechanic, meaning at least 3 of the 6 characters were development heavy(Min Min, Alex/Steve, Pyra and Mythra). It doesn't appear that Kazuya will be this, but if he has unique controls like Min Min does, that also means he took extra needed development time. If he didn't, perhaps we would've gotten two E3 reveals. Who knows who the last one is, but they might be more simplistic.
Did... did you just call Kazuya.... you know... the PROTAGONIST... a "secondary character that got in over the protagonist for no reason"?
A character doesn't need to appeal to literally every single audience to be good (under that definition, we literally would have NO good characters at all, not even the ones you like). That argument would make just as much sense with anything else. If you don't like jrpgs, what are the odds you care (at least positively) about all the jrpg characters? Also, four isn't as big of a number as you think. Fire Emblem (a single, far from mainstream, specific series) getting eight characters is fine, but fighting games (an entire genre and the very reason why Smash Bros even exists at all in the first place) having (god forbid) four is where you draw the line?
That was in my heated phase prior to learning he was the protagonist of the first game—does make more sense, and in some ways, preferable (though I’m still not into the series personally). Still, hasn’t helped that all the conversations prior only talked about Heihachi, and so when Kazuya showed up it was my first literal “Who?” (Terry would have been as well, but thankfully the leak educated me on some SNK so he didn’t come out of absolutely no where), and it didn’t help that the pass prior had already been unappealing.
I plead guilty. I am in my thirties now, doing a lot of adult stuff, like working, and don't have much time for video games anymore. I only have a few games on my Switch and I just finished Mario Odyssey a few days ago... I'm not gonna buy another console since the price would be too high considering the time I will spend on it. So I'm mostly sticking to my old favorites.
I plead guilty. I am in my thirties now, doing a lot of adult stuff, like working, and don't have much time for video games anymore. I only have a few games on my Switch and I just finished Mario Odyssey a few days ago... I'm not gonna buy another console since the price would be too high considering the time I will spend on it. So I'm mostly sticking to my old favorites.
I am kind of like you. Be careful about criticizing some of the DLC picks because you get trolled excessively on here, especially in the General Character Discussion thread.
Joker - Not very common on Nintendo consoles and is not that appealing to most casual gamers in the United States Hero - Very popular Japan IP. I didn't find this character that bad because DQ has been appearing on Nintendo consoles in the US for some time. Something you CANNOT say for 70% of the Fighter Pass (that statement alone is probably why the DLC hasn't been popular) Banjo-Kazooie - Obscure character but highly popular with US Nintendo fans due to N64 appearances Terry Bougard - Alright character but SNK was fairly obscure, even in its heyday (at least in United States) Byleth - Probably the worse DLC pick of the bunch. The 8-9th Fire Emblem character? Why? Min Min - People are trashing her on this thread but I like the pick because at least it was a NEW Franchise unlike the other First-Party picks Steve - HUGE IP so I get it. Not much to complain about this one. From a hype perspective, this might be the best pick of the DLC Sephiroth - Great character but could we get a new series rep instead of an existing series already in the game? Should have been base game character. I am playing through FF7 and it is an alright RPG. I don't see the major hype for it. I actually enjoyed Dragon Quest 11 better. I also don't like series that have very unrealistic weapons so that probably gets to me as well Mythra/Pyra - I remember this being probably one of the most disappointing reveals to me although it isn't necessarily my least favorite character. It was just at this point, I was so burned out that it was ridiculous. My wife was in the room with me as well and even she saw the lack of appeal with this pick Kayuza - Although not a desired pick, I did NOT hate this pick. Compared to most of the list, this is an OUTSTANDING pick because at least it is from a classic franchise that has connection to Nintendo and has a wide appeal. I don't think we needed both Terry and Kayuza between the two passes.
As stated, the issue is who is missing. For third-parties, it is the following:
These four continually come up with fan demand. All four IP have multiple games across multiple Nintendo platforms. I think only Hero and Piranha Plant can boost that from all of the DLC picks. If you are a United States Nintendo fan you are definitely not going to like this DLC pick. This is especially true if you don't like Anime RPGs. I haven't even got into first party representatives as there are first-party picks that would be far better than most of this DLC list as well.
The DLC, with the exception of maybe Banjo and Steve, has appealed to only a niche US audience. I guess it still makes sense to Nintendo as it probably is VERY APPEALING to Japan.
I do think the game's use of ULTIMATE was more tied to having all of the past characters in the game than it was the new IP.
I will say this though, the base game had a lot of love letter characters to United States Nintendo fans (Simon and Richter Belmont, Ridley, King K Rool).
In any kind of crossover, what's important to me is to see the characters I know and love. And at my core, I am a Nintendo fan - an old one. Before SSB64 was released in Europe, I was ungrily reading anything I could find related to it in the magazines, cause there where no Internet back then, and before I touched it, I was obsessed by it: Mario, Link, Yoshi, Kirby, Donkey Kong, Luigi in the same game?! Fighting?! It was a dream. I didn't know the other characters, but I assumed they had to be great since they were apparently on par with those icons. Pokémon was still this wierd japanese stuff we were not too sure about, except that it was seemingly huge. So the moveset is clearly secondary to me: what matters most is who the character is, what good memories does he bring back.
Now lets look at the DLC.
Piranha Plant is still, for me, the worst idea ever implemented in Smash (except maybe tripping, but I never had Brawl). That's a character I know, sure. But it would have been accurently represented by a stage hazard or a trophy - like several Mario mooks already are. Instead, we could have had... someone else. Someone from a new franchise, or an important and beloved character from a franchise poorly represented. Yes, Sakurai had very specific criteria for this "spot" (not a hero, stuff like that), but those criteria are exactly what I disagree with. So after that, I assumed the team was going to make choices that wouldn't appeal to me, and I luckily didn't buy the pass.
Joker : I had never heard about Personna, so I have no connexion to him. That doesn't mean I think it was a bad choice: that means I have no opinion on him and thus don't want to play as him.
Hero : I had heard about Dragon Quest, of course, but I have never played any of the games, so I have no connexion to him and am not willing to play as him.
Banjo & Kazooie : the only character I was delighted to see, and the only one I am planning to buy so far. Banjo-Kazooie was huge back in the N64 days, which I still see as my "console of heart".
Terry : I had heard about his serie(s), but never played it. So I have no connexion to him and am not willing to play as him.
Byleth : Come on! Another FE?! Yeah, yeah, rotating cast, blablabla. But why does every single Smash iteration must have at least one FE newcomer? Because their last game was a big deal? Yeah? Breath of the Wild was also a big deal, and all it got was one stage, and a few alterations to Link! Again, this slot could have been used for a new franchise, like Golden Sun or Rayman, or from an important and beloved character from a franchise poorly represented. The only choice of the first pass that I consider inherently bad, where the others (except for Banjo) where just "not for me".
Min-Min : Never played ARMS, so I don't care.
Steve/Alex : Never played Minecraft, but of course I know it's a very big deal.
Sephiroth : Never played FFVII (it's on my lis), so I don't care.
Pyra/Mythra : Never played Xenoblade Chronicles (it's also on my list), so I don't care.
Kazuya : Never played Tekken, so I don't care.
Maybe I'm just hard to please. But at the same time, I think characters like Isaac, Captain Toad, Skull Kid, Waluigi or Dixie Kong would totally fit and shouldn't be regarded as wierd, original choices. If we look at the third parties, it's the same with Rayman, Bomberman, Eggman or Tails. Actually, those characters not being in is what seems odd to me. Wich doesn't mean that the newcomers of the pass don't deserve to be Smashers... but I don't know. It's not for me.
Two points...
1- You stated it spot on with BotW. Again, Fire Emblem just has it's own rulebook, which is what makes the whole thing so obnoxious- the denial of reality.
2- You said you are a Nintendo fanboy... but... you don't seem to like any of the Nintendo newcomers. I certainly had ones I'd have preferred to 3/4 (I think ARMS was a great choice), and I would have loved Chibi Robo, Isaac, Chorus Kids, Balloon Fighter, Lip, Andy, Excite Biker, even Dragaux for Ring Fit Adventure... also Eevee, Captain Toad, Meowth, Dixie, Paper Mario... but if they were going for Switch characters, they didn't have all too many options. I'm curious what in another pass would have actually appealed to you, and if you expected a blind eye to the Switch characters.
I am kind of like you. Be careful about criticizing some of the DLC picks because you get trolled excessively on here, especially in the General Character Discussion thread.
Joker - Not very common on Nintendo consoles and is not that appealing to most casual gamers in the United States Hero - Very popular Japan IP. I didn't find this character that bad because DQ has been appearing on Nintendo consoles in the US for some time. Something you CANNOT say for 70% of the Fighter Pass (that statement alone is probably why the DLC hasn't been popular) Banjo-Kazooie - Obscure character but highly popular with US Nintendo fans due to N64 appearances Terry Bougard - Alright character but SNK was fairly obscure, even in its heyday (at least in United States) Byleth - Probably the worse DLC pick of the bunch. The 8-9th Fire Emblem character? Why? Min Min - People are trashing her on this thread but I like the pick because at least it was a NEW Franchise unlike the other First-Party picks Steve - HUGE IP so I get it. Not much to complain about this one. From a hype perspective, this might be the best pick of the DLC Sephiroth - Great character but could we get a new series rep instead of an existing series already in the game? Should have been base game character. I am playing through FF7 and it is an alright RPG. I don't see the major hype for it. I actually enjoyed Dragon Quest 11 better. I also don't like series that have very unrealistic weapons so that probably gets to me as well Mythra/Pyra - I remember this being probably one of the most disappointing reveals to me although it isn't necessarily my least favorite character. It was just at this point, I was so burned out that it was ridiculous. My wife was in the room with me as well and even she saw the lack of appeal with this pick Kayuza - Although not a desired pick, I did NOT hate this pick. Compared to most of the list, this is an OUTSTANDING pick because at least it is from a classic franchise that has connection to Nintendo and has a wide appeal. I don't think we needed both Terry and Kayuza between the two passes.
As stated, the issue is who is missing. For third-parties, it is the following:
These four continually come up with fan demand. All four IP have multiple games across multiple Nintendo platforms. I think only Hero and Piranha Plant can boost that from all of the DLC picks. If you are a United States Nintendo fan you are definitely not going to like this DLC pick. This is especially true if you don't like Anime RPGs. I haven't even got into first party representatives as there are first-party picks that would be far better than most of this DLC list as well.
The DLC, with the exception of maybe Banjo and Steve, has appealed to only a niche US audience. I guess it still makes sense to Nintendo as it probably is VERY APPEALING to Japan.
I do think the game's use of ULTIMATE was more tied to having all of the past characters in the game than it was the new IP.
I will say this though, the base game had a lot of love letter characters to United States Nintendo fans (Simon and Richter Belmont, Ridley, King K Rool).
I agree with all of this, for the most part. I will comment that...
I understand the appeal of Fighting Game characters. As the ultimate fighting game crossover of video game characters, I sincerely wish we had a few more big fighting games represented- specifically Mortal Kombat, but even others like Guilty Gear, Soul Caliber, Dead or Alive, Darkstalkers, hell... Joy Mech Fight.
As for third party characters- I think a HUGE missing one from your list is Bomberman- not just an IP with an insane number of games, but very old school NIntendo aesthetic, and an enormous number of games, many of which on Nintendo.
I'd also state that there are some big video game industry characters that would be wide- most notably, Frogger, but also some along the lines of Lara Croft and Resident Evil, even ones like Tracer, Jonesy, or Red Bird (Angry Birds).
I am quite...nearly distraught... over not getting an old Nintendo IP return. With the passing of Iwata, the mentor of Sakurai who made Smash possible, I really thought we would get a tribute to him in the essence of Balloon Fighter.
In that sense, it is one of the things I have loved since the start of Smash, in 64- wherein I didn't know at least half of the series.
In fact, this is the first game to really get me as much into this spirit.
That said, I do have a pension for series that were revolutionary- ones that are known as genre-defining, and have game or media sales to match. Even ones I have not played, or have not played much, in this realm, excite me, as they seem to be Smash making an even bigger name for itself.
Two points...
1- You stated it spot on with BotW. Again, Fire Emblem just has it's own rulebook, which is what makes the whole thing so obnoxious- the denial of reality.
2- You said you are a Nintendo fanboy... but... you don't seem to like any of the Nintendo newcomers. I certainly had ones I'd have preferred to 3/4 (I think ARMS was a great choice), and I would have loved Chibi Robo, Isaac, Chorus Kids, Balloon Fighter, Lip, Andy, Excite Biker, even Dragaux for Ring Fit Adventure... also Eevee, Captain Toad, Meowth, Dixie, Paper Mario... but if they were going for Switch characters, they didn't have all too many options. I'm curious what in another pass would have actually appealed to you, and if you expected a blind eye to the Switch characters.
Please clarify this, because I seem to have a lot to say, and I want to first make sure I understand.
I agree with all of this, for the most part. I will comment that...
I understand the appeal of Fighting Game characters. As the ultimate fighting game crossover of video game characters, I sincerely wish we had a few more big fighting games represented- specifically Mortal Kombat, but even others like Guilty Gear, Soul Caliber, Dead or Alive, Darkstalkers, hell... Joy Mech Fight.
As for third party characters- I think a HUGE missing one from your list is Bomberman- not just an IP with an insane number of games, but very old school NIntendo aesthetic, and an enormous number of games, many of which on Nintendo.
I'd also state that there are some big video game industry characters that would be wide- most notably, Frogger, but also some along the lines of Lara Croft and Resident Evil, even ones like Tracer, Jonesy, or Red Bird (Angry Birds).
I am quite...nearly distraught... over not getting an old Nintendo IP return. With the passing of Iwata, the mentor of Sakurai who made Smash possible, I really thought we would get a tribute to him in the essence of Balloon Fighter.
Sorry, I'm not sur what you mean with your first point, it must be my English. Judging by your precedent messages, I guess you agree with me, but just in case, I'm gonna rephrase my thought.
Breath of the Wild was a massive success and is highly important, to the Zelda franchise and to Nintendo. And yet, all it got character-wise is a few tweaks to Link. No new character at all. And "Link" - like almost all the Zelda-smashers - is now stuck in a weird in-between state where he kinda represents every Link in the franchise and also kinda represents the specific Link from Breath of the Wild. He tries to do everything at once and so isn't really successful at neither : his bombs are remote-controlled, but he only uses the round ones since that's what he does since Smash 64 - same reason why he uses the boomerang, and doesn't recover whith Revali's Gale, the evident choice. Young Link doesn't do a great job at representing Majora's Mask either, as he doesn't even have the proper shield, a single alt with a mask, or a Fierce Deity final smash ; same with Toon Link. The reason is clear : they both were conceived as quick clones, and nothing more.
So given the fact that veteran movesets are to stay mostly unchanged, the best way to represent an individual Zelda game would be with its more prominent character : Midna for Twilight Princess, Skull Kid for Majora, and so on. But those characters are only trophies (or background characters again in Tingle's case).
So yeah, Zelda has to settle for scraps, but those aren't good enough for Fire Emblem...
As for your second point, I said that I was a Nintendo-fan, but I also said that I was an old one. I've had the Switch for a few years and never got the chance to play ARMS because I don't have enough time, and not much of a budget. That's the reason why I was not excited about Min-Min, but that doesn't mean I think an ARM character was a bad move, on the contrary. The choice was good, it's just not appealing to me.
A pass that I would have liked? Let's say : Skull Kid, Isaac, Dixie Kong, Captain Toad, Tingle, Tetra, Waluigi, Professor E. Gadd... For third parties : Rayman, Bomberman, Lara Croft, Jill Valentine or Leon Kennedy, Joanna Dark (a pipe dream, I know), Crash Bandicoot, Tails, Eggman... Mostly characters who've been around for a long time now. Those are the first to come to my mind and I would pay for them without hesitation. Again, that doesn't mean characters I don't know or don't like are worthless.
I never said it was the character's fault if I don't know him. I know I'm kinda out of the loop. And maybe I'm the oldest guy on Smashboards, I don't know, but I just can't use Smash to discover new franchises anymore because I just don't have time for that. I've had the Switch for more than two years and just bought my sixth game (Mario + Rabbits, it was really cheap so if I don't play a lot with it will not be a waste). Besides, the mere fact that a character is in Smash in enough to know about his franchise, you don't have to pay for his DLC and can go directly buy his game.
Of course, if you have enough money and free time to play a lot a different stuff, it's great for you ! Smash 64 made me discover a lot of great franchises, like F-Zero and Starfox, but unfortunately, I'm not there anymore.
- Breath of the Wild : a present from my best friend. It seemed like the revival of the franchise, and the number one reason I wanted to go back to video games. Was not disappointed at all !
- Smash Ultimate : always loved this franchise and I'm a sucker for crossovers. Unfortunately, only some the first newcomers (and Banjo & Kazooie) were appealing to me, but since I never got Brawl, I was really happy to finally play as Pokémon Trainer, Snake or Wolf.
- Mario Kart 8 Deluxe : another present from my best friend. On my own, I don't play it a lot (around 20 hours of playtime) but it's great for multiplayer. My friends and my sister don't stand a chance against me in Smash, but they do win sometimes in Mario Kart.
- Rayman Legends Definitive Edition : I had heard a lot of good comments about it, Rayman is a familiar figure and it was really cheap. A happy surprise for me, 2D platforming done perfectly right.
- Dragon Ball Fighterz : I'm a fan of Dragon Ball, not of fighting games, but I gave this one a chance since, you get it, it was on sale. I had a lot of fun.
- Mario + Rabbids. Kingdom Battle : good reputation, and it was cheap. Didn't play it yet.
My friend also lent me Mario Odyssey. I finished it last weekend and might buy it some day, when I have enough time, if I decide to try to complete it. I loved it.
Two points...
1- You stated it spot on with BotW. Again, Fire Emblem just has it's own rulebook, which is what makes the whole thing so obnoxious- the denial of reality.
2- You said you are a Nintendo fanboy... but... you don't seem to like any of the Nintendo newcomers. I certainly had ones I'd have preferred to 3/4 (I think ARMS was a great choice), and I would have loved Chibi Robo, Isaac, Chorus Kids, Balloon Fighter, Lip, Andy, Excite Biker, even Dragaux for Ring Fit Adventure... also Eevee, Captain Toad, Meowth, Dixie, Paper Mario... but if they were going for Switch characters, they didn't have all too many options. I'm curious what in another pass would have actually appealed to you, and if you expected a blind eye to the Switch characters.
Please clarify this, because I seem to have a lot to say, and I want to first make sure I understand.
I agree with all of this, for the most part. I will comment that...
I understand the appeal of Fighting Game characters. As the ultimate fighting game crossover of video game characters, I sincerely wish we had a few more big fighting games represented- specifically Mortal Kombat, but even others like Guilty Gear, Soul Caliber, Dead or Alive, Darkstalkers, hell... Joy Mech Fight.
As for third party characters- I think a HUGE missing one from your list is Bomberman- not just an IP with an insane number of games, but very old school NIntendo aesthetic, and an enormous number of games, many of which on Nintendo.
I'd also state that there are some big video game industry characters that would be wide- most notably, Frogger, but also some along the lines of Lara Croft and Resident Evil, even ones like Tracer, Jonesy, or Red Bird (Angry Birds).
I am quite...nearly distraught... over not getting an old Nintendo IP return. With the passing of Iwata, the mentor of Sakurai who made Smash possible, I really thought we would get a tribute to him in the essence of Balloon Fighter.
Totally agree on Bomberman and Frogger. Both would be great additions! Bomberman was written off early due to AT, however he would have been better than 70-80% of the DLC Fighters that we got. Perhaps replace Piranha Plant with him.
As for fighting games, if you want to go on popularity, Street Fighter was a great first addition as it is popular everywhere and iconic. MK and Tekken would be the next two. The only one that is (kind of) odd is King of Fighters because it was not an IP that appeared a lot on Nintendo consoles. However, King of Fighters was apparently real big globally outside of the USA so it makes sense. Mortal Kombat has nearly no presence in Japan while it is arguably the biggest Fighting Franchise in USA. Once again, USA gamers lose in favor of Japan.
To summarize, the fighting franchises are probably represented alright. I am not sure Terry should have make it but Kayuza or Tekken in general deserve a spot. It is very close to MK in Global Sales.
To defend the people that are reacting to the Smash DLC negatively, let me summarize it this way.
Imagine if Netflix only released Japanese Anime and some Sci-Fi series over the next two years (No Actions, Drama, Comedy, Documentaries, etc.). Yeah it would be highly appealing to some demograph but not many. I think we have the same problem with the Smash DLC.
The key is that Sakurai, with Ultimate's DLC, went away from adding characters from mainstream franchises that had appeared on Nintendo Consoles regularly dating back to NES/SNES era. Snake, Simon Belmont, Megaman, Ryu, Ken, etc. had all regularly appeared on Nintendo consoles since the 1980s and are very familiar and loved by Nintendo fans. They also come from a wide variety of genres that are popular with the base. Sonic came up in 1991 on the Sega Genesis but has primarily appeared on Nintendo Consoles since Gamecube era (Sonic does more exclusives with Nintendo than other companies). Pacman is probably the most iconic video game character after Mario and PacLand has made regular appearance with Nintendo.
Then you got characters like Joker or Byleth who have appeared in a small number of titles and in the case of Joker, is primarily on non-Nintendo Console. Final Fantasy 7 (not the series, just 7) gets two characters despite being a PS1 exclusive. All of these characters, in their design and appearance, appeal primarily to anime fans and more to Sony fans than Nintendo fans. They are also heavily slanted towards RPG titles (or what is called JRPG titles which is different from USA RPG titles).
So you got a DLC pack that has limited affiliation with Nintendo, limited appeal to players who don't like fighters or JRPGs, and limited appeal to the overall Smash Fan Base. So you saying, just try the new IP and like it is like telling someone that hates Horror movies to just suck it up and go watch a Horror movie.
I see the point of many of these posters. This board loves to troll them but the Board can sit down and grasp the fact that the DLC has a very limited appeal to the overall base. Now the BASE GAME had a wide appeal and I think the lineup was great as was the lineup in Smash 4 and Brawl.
Honestly, outside of Minecraft, ARMs, and Persona, I have tried all of the IP. I bought Dragon Quest 11 and I am on the Final Boss area (I need to complete it). I got FF7 recently off the shop. I own Xenoblade 1 for Wii and played it. I own 3 FE titles. I have played KOF and Tekken in Arcades. So yes, I have tried most of the IP but I am NOT happy with the DLC additions overall. I think there are far better picks that Sakurai could have gone with. '
Unpopular Video Game Opinion from me: I don't think Final Fantasy 7 is that great. In fact, I liked DQ11 better. I really don't understand the hype. It isn't a bad game by any means but it isn't the best thing since sliced bread. Heck, I think FF1 and FF2 are more enjoyable. I actually don't like the Time Mechanic as it makes it confusing what character you are and what move you are using on which enemy (at least at first). The weapons look silly and I just cannot relate to Cloud and his friends. However, I am going to keep playing it through.
This is one of the most healthy outcomes that can be sadly difficult to accept sometimes. We should all definitely be more positive, I get you. Its just that some of us have our own, "This was supposed to be Ultimate!" and some of our most wanted picks may never have that chance anymore now that Ultimate is over.
I also agree with what Volbound has wrote. Smash is becoming a generational I.P in a heavily literally sense.
Now I will say this to defend Nintendo and its DLC choices versus my arguments (so counter my points). I do this because I prefer healthy discussions that cover all points and to not get into arguments.
Nintendo is only a partial player in picking characters. Let's say they are talking to Square Enix and they may want Sora or Lora Croft but Square-Enix comes back and says that they would prefer having a second FF7 and add Sephiroth. Nintendo isn't going to say no to that and I wouldn't either in that scenario. There probably isn't a though about the fanbase in a lot of these discussions but rather what characters these companies want to add.
Second, it does make sense for Nintendo to focus on the younger generations vs. the older and loyal Nintendo fans. Nintendo is gearing to win people over, especially the Sony fans in Japan who probably feel dumped by Sony at the moment. From a business point, adding characters like Joker or Sephiroth vs. Nintendo stables like Bomberman or Rayman just makes more sense.
The DLC pack seems to scream a strategy of trying to take market share from Sony in Japan.
Does it leave a lot of the traditional Smash fans, especially the USA fans in the dust? Yes, in a way it does. However, we are not the future of the franchise or the future for Nintendo.
I would argue that there are some other characters that fall into the category of not really having major titles on Nintendo Platforms. For the purpose of Smash, I think that is a very valid reason for why that character is not a good pick.
I would argue that there are some other characters that fall into the category of not really having major titles on Nintendo Platforms. For the purpose of Smash, I think that is a very valid reason for why that character is not a good pick.
Totally agree on Bomberman and Frogger. Both would be great additions! Bomberman was written off early due to AT, however he would have been better than 70-80% of the DLC Fighters that we got. Perhaps replace Piranha Plant with him.
As for fighting games, if you want to go on popularity, Street Fighter was a great first addition as it is popular everywhere and iconic. MK and Tekken would be the next two. The only one that is (kind of) odd is King of Fighters because it was not an IP that appeared a lot on Nintendo consoles. However, King of Fighters was apparently real big globally outside of the USA so it makes sense. Mortal Kombat has nearly no presence in Japan while it is arguably the biggest Fighting Franchise in USA. Once again, USA gamers lose in favor of Japan.
To summarize, the fighting franchises are probably represented alright. I am not sure Terry should have make it but Kayuza or Tekken in general deserve a spot. It is very close to MK in Global Sales.
To make a point, as far as Media Franchises are concerned, Mortal Kombat comes in second, behind Street Fighter, as far as most money made. Tekken (nor any another fighting game) is on the list.
Then you got characters like Joker or Byleth who have appeared in a small number of titles and in the case of Joker, is primarily on non-Nintendo Console. Final Fantasy 7 (not the series, just 7) gets two characters despite being a PS1 exclusive. All of these characters, in their design and appearance, appeal primarily to anime fans and more to Sony fans than Nintendo fans. They are also heavily slanted towards RPG titles (or what is called JRPG titles which is different from USA RPG titles).
So you got a DLC pack that has limited affiliation with Nintendo, limited appeal to players who don't like fighters or JRPGs, and limited appeal to the overall Smash Fan Base. So you saying, just try the new IP and like it is like telling someone that hates Horror movies to just suck it up and go watch a Horror movie.
With this, I do heavily agree. I'm not surprised we got so many RPG (which, for fairness sake, isn't separated from JRPG's for me) characters- we always do. However, I cannot say I expected half the DLC to be comprised of this.
I don't dislike it overall but personally I wish it was the kind of DLC lineup where it's a character representing a different genre one by one so there would be something for every kind of gamer like a horror rep, a puzzle rep, light novel rep, etc..
I don't dislike it overall but personally I wish it was the kind of DLC lineup where it's a character representing a different genre one by one so there would be something for every kind of gamer like a horror rep, a puzzle rep, light novel rep, etc..
I in part fully agree with you- though my understanding of sales does make this a bit weary.
Then I also remember how not all genres fall into simple categories.
Ngl, I don't get how some people question some of the DLC 'picks' (as if the development team actually have a huge say in this matter and it isn't largely (not entirely) to satisfy industry shareholders, producers, executives and general stakeholders from Nintendo's Market Research team) and present names like Ryu Hayabusa and Geno as some sort of given for potential DLC.
I'm almost certain a Chain Chomp will be a playable character before Geno.
Ngl, I don't get how some people question some of the DLC 'picks' (as if the development team actually have a huge say in this matter and it isn't largely (not entirely) to satisfy industry shareholders, producers, executives and general stakeholders from Nintendo's Market Research team) and present names like Ryu Hayabusa and Geno as some sort of given for potential DLC.
I'm almost certain a Chain Chomp will be a playable character before Geno.
Correct, which is only further evidence that Nintendo are a bunch of cowards who will only go with the "safest" possible choices instead of doing anything truly out-there and interesting.
Ngl, I don't get how some people question some of the DLC 'picks' (as if the development team actually have a huge say in this matter and it isn't largely (not entirely) to satisfy industry shareholders, producers, executives and general stakeholders from Nintendo's Market Research team) and present names like Ryu Hayabusa and Geno as some sort of given for potential DLC.
I'm almost certain a Chain Chomp will be a playable character before Geno.
Correct, which is only further evidence that Nintendo are a bunch of cowards who will only go with the "safest" possible choices instead of doing anything truly out-there and interesting.
Correct, which is only further evidence that Nintendo are a bunch of cowards who will only go with the "safest" possible choices instead of doing anything truly out-there and interesting.
Nintendo made a game where Cloud Strife, Sonic the Hedgehog, and Ryu can fight Minecraft, Pac-Man, and Solid Snake and you think that's not out there and interesting?
Nintendo made a game where Cloud Strife, Sonic the Hedgehog, and Ryu can fight Minecraft, Pac-Man, and Solid Snake and you think that's not out there and interesting?
Lemme put it this way: was there a time when Nintendo was truly innovative and willing to experiment with weird **** they didn't know was going to work? Undeniably, yes, that's why we have games like Smash in the first place. Has that time long since passed? In a post-Iwata age where the company's run by and its decisions largely motivated by external shareholders (more often than not to the detriment of the consumer), I'd argue it has.
Nintendo made a game where Cloud Strife, Sonic the Hedgehog, and Ryu can fight Minecraft, Pac-Man, and Solid Snake and you think that's not out there and interesting?
Most of the characters you listed there were added before Ultimate's DLC, i.e. when Nintendo started picking the characters and not Sakurai. Notice how all of the characters added to Ultimate as DLC (Piranha Plant notwithstanding, seeing how it was ostensibly planned for base roster and got pushed back) were either recent first-party picks to promote new Nintendo releases, or super safe third-party picks (Banjo or Terry are about as adventurous as they get in that regard). That's Nintendo's influence for you.
Piranha Plant - This was just a great and wacky addition. I love when they put in characters that you have no idea how they would even work until you see them in action. May not be one that anyone was asking for, but was just so strange and fun that it made up for it.
Joker - With persona being a well loved series and persona 5 being a hit, I think Joker deserved to be added in the game. Would have preferred if the protagonists from 3 & 4 would be alt costumes, but I guess that would have been too difficult, especially with the Arsene mechanic.
Hero - Well deserved spot. Dragon Quest being such a big series in Japan, I'm surprised that they were not added before. I also love that they have the other protagonists as alt costumes.
Banjo & Kazooie - There was a big fan push for them for a long time. This is probably on of the best additions throughout the DLC just by seeing the reactions to it.
Terry - I personally had no idea who this was or about the series. But it seems like there was a big legacy with this character and the series they were from so it was interesting to find out about all that. Though I do admit that I personally don't care too much for a fighting game character in smash, but I can't say they don't deserve to be there.
Byleth - Probably the weakest addition in my opinion. Wasn't much of a big demand for him, series already has quite a few characters in the game already. The addition of Byleth felt more like a ticking of a box, like they needed to add the main character from the latest fire emblem game. They only addition in fighter pass 1 that left me feeling "meh".
Fighter Pass 2:
Min Min - I thought this was cool but I don't recall there being much of a demand for any ARMS character. I also don't see that much love for ARMS that made me think this character was an exciting addition to smash. I remember Splatoon being a big hit and everyone loving the inklings and wanting them in smash, don't remember a big push for that with ARMS or any character from the game...Maybe I just didn't notice.
Steve - Not a Minecraft fan, but I can't deny that Steve was deserving of a spot. Minecraft has been around for a while now to say it's just a fad, so I'm glad they added in.
Sephiroth - Cool! One of the most intimidating and well known bad guys in RPGs. With so few slots left, I probably would have preferred characters from series that weren't yet represented. But still awesome to get him in.
Pyra/Mythra - I like the switching mechanic. I think they are al alright addition.
Kazuya - I think it's great that Tekken gets a character in there. Again, I personally don't find it excited to get another fighting game character, but still a good character from a big series to get in the game.
Overall, I think the DLC characters are pretty great. Quite a few of these are from big or long running series that have been around for a while that have a great gaming legacy. There are a few of them I would have preferred to have a character that had a bigger fan demand but overall, I think this is great.
Now...if that last character is a Pokemon from the latest game, that will definitely be a let down to end this all on.
I'm gonna be kind of harsh but honestly every time a character or costume is announced I get more and more dissapointed with the Smash community.
You didn't pay to have your dreams come true. You didn't pay to have your precise hopeful selection of characters added. You didn't pay to have any amount of your favorite characters added. You didn't pay just to have your favorite portrait on the selection screen. Nintendo doesn't know what you, specifically want.
You paid to get more characters added to the game.
And they're absolutely, under any ****ing standard you could possibly measure them, very highly-polished, quality characters, including a solid amount of content, completely new kinds of mechanics, all sorts of neat references and tiny details, and the amount of work behind these characters honestly is honestly almost beyond the point of being reasonable.
"But it's not Walui-"
Honestly? **** that. Yes, I get it, it's dissapointing when you've been hoping for a character for a long time and you didn't get it but like... Smash is a game.
Shocking revelation, I know.
But really, Smash is a game. You play it. It's not a freaking museum. I absolutely hate how the Smash fanbase reached a point where they only see value in a character when they're able to recognize them, or connect to them on a personal level because they were important to their childhood. I mean to me that's kind of a bonus. There's several characters in this DLC from games I've barely even freaking knew. Joker, Hero, Terry, Byleth, Min Min, Steve, Kazuya, I give absolute 0 ****s about any of these people. And I like Pyra and especially Sephirot, but honestly wasn't that excited about them as potential Smash characters. But I had a ****-ton of fun with all of them and don't regret buying them in the slightest. I mean ****, you know what? It honestly can still be fun if you take this as an opportunity to learn about a piece of gaming you never would've tried before. Post-Terry, I played KoF for the first time and I'm kinda hooked. I could've never done this if I was still stubborn about this whole thing and just went "Oh boy, another non-Isaac character, we already have over 80 of those, what's the point?!"
Chances are, the last character is also going to be from a game I've never played or even actively dislike, and that's okay. They're still gonna be fun. Because I kinda like Smash. I like to play it. And I like it when it's expanded.
Also can we stop treating Mii costumes as a middle finger to fans and a character's legacy like Jesus ****ing Christ what the hell happened.
What do we think would happen if these costumes were not here?
They... Would not be here.
Are you seriously happier that way?
Anyway, gonna have fun trying Kazuya out. I never really liked Tekken, but he looks absolutely insane.
(Also small disclaimer, are you dissapointed? I'm fine with that. Just... don't take it personally. You're not owed anything. Your character is not owed anything. Have fun with the new character or don't. If all you want is a recognizeable face and you don't care about what they add to the game regardless... you might be paying for the wrong thing in the first place. If your tastes are that specific there's no reason for you to get the pass.)
I'm gonna be kind of harsh but honestly every time a character or costume is announced I get more and more dissapointed with the Smash community.
You didn't pay to have your dreams come true. You didn't pay to have your precise hopeful selection of characters added. You didn't pay to have any amount of your favorite characters added. You didn't pay just to have your favorite portrait on the selection screen. Nintendo doesn't know what you, specifically want.
You paid to get more characters added to the game.
And they're absolutely, under any ****ing standard you could possibly measure them, very highly-polished, quality characters, including a solid amount of content, completely new kinds of mechanics, all sorts of neat references and tiny details, and the amount of work behind these characters honestly is honestly almost beyond the point of being reasonable.
"But it's not Walui-"
Honestly? **** that. Yes, I get it, it's dissapointing when you've been hoping for a character for a long time and you didn't get it but like... Smash is a game.
Shocking revelation, I know.
But really, Smash is a game. You play it. It's not a freaking museum. I absolutely hate how the Smash fanbase reached a point where they only see value in a character when they're able to recognize them, or connect to them on a personal level because they were important to their childhood. I mean to me that's kind of a bonus. There's several characters in this DLC from games I've barely even freaking knew. Joker, Hero, Terry, Byleth, Min Min, Steve, Kazuya, I give absolute 0 s about any of these people. And I like Pyra and especially Sephirot, but honestly wasn't that excited about them as potential Smash characters. But I had a -ton of fun with all of them and don't regret buying them in the slightest. I mean **, you know what? It honestly can still be fun if you take this as an opportunity to learn about a piece of gaming you never would've tried before. Post-Terry, I played KoF for the first time and I'm kinda hooked. I could've never done this if I was still stubborn about this whole thing and just went "Oh boy, another non-Isaac character, we already have over 80 of those, what's the point?!"
Chances are, the last character is also going to be from a game I've never played or even actively dislike, and that's okay. They're still gonna be fun. Because I kinda like Smash. I like to play it. And I like it when it's expanded.
Also can we stop treating Mii costumes as a middle finger to fans and a character's legacy like Jesus ****ing Christ what the hell happened.
What do we think would happen if these costumes were not here?
They... Would not be here.
Are you seriously happier that way?
Anyway, gonna have fun trying Kazuya out. I never really liked Tekken, but he looks absolutely insane.
(Also small disclaimer, are you dissapointed? I'm fine with that. Just... don't take it personally. You're not owed anything. Your character is not owed anything. Have fun with the new character or don't. If all you want is a recognizeable face and you don't care about what they add to the game regardless... you might be paying for the wrong thing in the first place. If your tastes are that specific there's no reason for you to get the pass.)
Lemme put it this way: was there a time when Nintendo was truly innovative and willing to experiment with weird **** they didn't know was going to work? Undeniably, yes, that's why we have games like Smash in the first place. Has that time long since passed? In a post-Iwata age where the company's run by and its decisions largely motivated by external shareholders (more often than not to the detriment of the consumer), I'd argue it has.
That sounds more like two very separate opinions.
If Nintendo purely cared about shareholders, we would likely get dozens more games we've been asking for, because they sell. Donkey Kong, ten more Pokemon games per year, more Mario, more Zelda...
Instead, we get games like Garage Builder and ARMS. Pretty new ideas.
Shareholders and consumers go hand in hand. The price of stock changes based on perception of sales. Yes, it is before the purchasing happens- but the value of the stock is dependent upon those sales actually coming.
I'm gonna be kind of harsh but honestly every time a character or costume is announced I get more and more dissapointed with the Smash community.
You didn't pay to have your dreams come true. You didn't pay to have your precise hopeful selection of characters added. You didn't pay to have any amount of your favorite characters added. You didn't pay just to have your favorite portrait on the selection screen. Nintendo doesn't know what you, specifically want.
You paid to get more characters added to the game.
And they're absolutely, under any ****ing standard you could possibly measure them, very highly-polished, quality characters, including a solid amount of content, completely new kinds of mechanics, all sorts of neat references and tiny details, and the amount of work behind these characters honestly is honestly almost beyond the point of being reasonable.
"But it's not Walui-"
Honestly? **** that. Yes, I get it, it's dissapointing when you've been hoping for a character for a long time and you didn't get it but like... Smash is a game.
Shocking revelation, I know.
But really, Smash is a game. You play it. It's not a freaking museum. I absolutely hate how the Smash fanbase reached a point where they only see value in a character when they're able to recognize them, or connect to them on a personal level because they were important to their childhood. I mean to me that's kind of a bonus. There's several characters in this DLC from games I've barely even freaking knew. Joker, Hero, Terry, Byleth, Min Min, Steve, Kazuya, I give absolute 0 s about any of these people. And I like Pyra and especially Sephirot, but honestly wasn't that excited about them as potential Smash characters. But I had a -ton of fun with all of them and don't regret buying them in the slightest. I mean **, you know what? It honestly can still be fun if you take this as an opportunity to learn about a piece of gaming you never would've tried before. Post-Terry, I played KoF for the first time and I'm kinda hooked. I could've never done this if I was still stubborn about this whole thing and just went "Oh boy, another non-Isaac character, we already have over 80 of those, what's the point?!"
Chances are, the last character is also going to be from a game I've never played or even actively dislike, and that's okay. They're still gonna be fun. Because I kinda like Smash. I like to play it. And I like it when it's expanded.
Also can we stop treating Mii costumes as a middle finger to fans and a character's legacy like Jesus ****ing Christ what the hell happened.
What do we think would happen if these costumes were not here?
They... Would not be here.
Are you seriously happier that way?
Anyway, gonna have fun trying Kazuya out. I never really liked Tekken, but he looks absolutely insane.
(Also small disclaimer, are you dissapointed? I'm fine with that. Just... don't take it personally. You're not owed anything. Your character is not owed anything. Have fun with the new character or don't. If all you want is a recognizeable face and you don't care about what they add to the game regardless... you might be paying for the wrong thing in the first place. If your tastes are that specific there's no reason for you to get the pass.)
What a very long post just to tell you can't stand that some people don't like the same thing as you do. Unless I'm mistaken and your whole post is only directed at the very specific portion of disappointed people who bought the passes early and talk now about treason, manipulation and stuff like that,. But it sounds like you're englobing all the people who are not thrilled by every newcomer reveal.
You have enough free time and money to buy and play every character in Smash and the games they come from? That's great. But maybe don't blame the people who don't.
You enjoy experimenting new movesets regardless of the characters themselves? Again, that's great. But Smash is many things and has many aspects. One of those is being a lively, playable tribute to Nintendo and other video games companies, whether it's important for you or not. So for some players, most of the joy comes from playing as someone they like against other characters from other franchises they also like.
Also, saying that you don't like something doesn't mean that you hate it and that it should have been different. Do you lecture everyone saying that they're not interested in a game and tell them the game wasn't meant for their taste specifically ? There is nothing wrong in saying that something is not for you. Most of us have to choose what we buy and what we play.
I do agree with you on one point though, I'm actually glad for the Mii costumes. Didn't buy any of them for the same reason I didn't buy any DLC (it's not for me), but I'm glad that Skull Kid got a nice outfit and sometimes I like to play with it on Great Bay against Young Link : I would have prefered the full character, of course, but it's way better than nothing.
What a very long post just to tell you can't stand that some people don't like the same thing as you do. Unless I'm mistaken and your whole post is only directed at the very specific portion of disappointed people who bought the passes early and talk now about treason, manipulation and stuff like that, but it sounds like you're englobing all the people who are not thrilled by every newcomer reveal.
You have enough free time and money to buy and play every character in Smash and the games they come from? That's great. But maybe don't blame the people who don't.
You enjoy experimenting new movesets regardless of the character himself? Again, that's great. But Smash is many things and has many aspects. One of those is being a lively, playable tribute to Nintendo and other video games companies, whether it's important for you or not, so for some players, most of the joy comes from playing as someone they like and put him against other characters from other franchises they also like.
Also, saying that you don't like something doesn't mean that you hate it and that it should have been different. Do you lecture everyone saying that they're not interested in a game because "the game wasn't meant for their taste specifically" ? There is nothing wrong in saying that something is not for you. Most of us have to choose what we buy and what we play.
I do agree with you on one point though, I'm actually glad for the Mii costumes. Didn't buy any of them for the same reason I didn't buy any DLC (it's not for me), but I'm glad that Skull Kid got a nice outfit and sometimes I like to play with it on Great Bay against Young Link : I would have prefered the full character, of course, but it's way better than nothing.
THANK YOU. Thank you. They act like us feeling any different is the end of the world. We get it. Be more accepting, yada yada, but this is Smash. We're going to speculate our brains out and analyze the s* out of any possible hints that lead to our dream picks. And we're totally justifiable because we all care about Smash differently.
THANK YOU. Thank you. They act like us feeling any different is the end of the world. We get it. Be more accepting, yada yada, but this is Smash. We're going to speculate our brains out and analyze the s* out of any possible hints that lead to our dream picks. And we're totally justifiable because we all care about Smash differently.
Oh, for me, hoping for someone you like and speculating are two different things. There are several characters that I would love to see as playable in Smash, but that doesn't mean I speculate and analyse "hints" and all this stuff. I did that a bit before Ultimate's release but, as you can guess by looking at my profile pic, it did not end very well : a lot of people were convinced that Skull Kid was going to get in, because of "clues" and "leaks", I was starting to believe it, and he did not. That cured me!
The only characters on the fighters pass that really disappointed me were Byleth and Sephiroth. Byleth, because it's yet another character from a franchise that's comparatively over-represented while others go ignored this time around (Star Fox, Kirby, F-Zero, Kid Icarus). Sephiroth because quite honestly, I don't think Final Fantasy 7 deserved another rep. Square-Enix already had two characters in the roster (Cloud and Hero) and if they were going to throw in another character from that company, it should have been from something unique like the Mana series.
