anti shield pressure

[voorhese]

i want to discuss different ways to hurt peoples shield pressure, i think i said something about this somewhere else, but i dont remember any feedback

my friend and noticed a nice way we can mess up shield pressure by, holding A as you get put into shield stun, not to shield grab, but to enable you to switch to light shield by pressing z anytime you want during your opponents shield pressure, i use this now to mess up their timing and then waveshining oos with my fox, its pretty solid i think. works very well vs spacies, havent got to try it on others yet, but im sure messing up their timing, and then wavedashin oos back would be nice vs other characters you cant waveshine oos often like marth.

discuss.

 

[Mooo]

i do that too, but i usually mess up my waveshine out of shield because i suck.
the problem is though, getting the light shield hit will make you almost certainly make you slide back too much to hit the shine, so you just wd back or roll, which then results in you getting hit some times if you are playing someone decent/someone who knows your tricks.

 

[voorhese]

well if you switch from light shield to normal shield you c an still waveshine oos, thats the idea you can mix it up anytime you wants =)

 

[Tee ay eye]

i don't think it's really worth learning holding A to shieldgrab and switch to a full lightshield by pressing Z.. it's a little convoluted, in my opinion... especially considering you can lightshield manually

i think it'd be easier, and probably a little better to just loosen your grip on your trigger a little and lightshield manually

it's easier, plus it frees up A for shieldgrabbing and other nonsense

powershielding is pretty cool if you're willing to learn it

also, if we're talking about general shield pressure, and not just nair/dair->shines from space animals

holding down and mashing A when they're like, jabbing or tilting your shield is pretty good
since you're going for a shield grab
and if you mis-time it, you're holding down, which makes you ASDI down (weaker crouch cancel, pretty much), provided that you're at low enough of a percent, and CC grab automatically (since L/R + A = grab)

also, you can shield DI by smash DIing backwards when their hits tap your shield
it's just like smash DI for when they hit your shield

i'm not sure if automatic shield DI is weaker than shield DI. i'd imagine it is.

 

[voorhese]

well for 1 you dont hold A to shieldgrab, you hold down A during his stun (so you dont shieldgrab) then when you press z it throws up a full light shield instantly, so u can switch faster than humanly possibly by loosening your grip, also when im getting shield pressured i dont think i can controll how lightly i press buttons, im not that calm.

 

[Bones0]

If you're getting shield pressured on a platform, there are few options better than shield dropping. It's definitely my personal favorite as far as options go. Only bad part is it's hard to do.

 

[voorhese]

agreed, shieldropping on a platform out of shield pressure is ****ing amazing, rest oosd is great lol

 

[StretchNutz]

Tai: ASDI downwards = crouch cancel, I don't think that CC'ing is a thing per se.

 

[voorhese]

if thats the case wouldnt it just be ADI down? cuz if its autosmashdi you would think that holding any direction would make it ASDI and doesnt that only make it DI? cuz if that was the case then there would be no reason to time di at all...well during hitstun

 

[StretchNutz]

sadly there is no such thing as "ADI."
There is DI which is based on the input of the stick at the frame of impact.
There is smash DI which is when you SMASH the stick while in hitlag.
And there is automatic smash DI which is smash DI based on the direction you're holding the stick on a certain frame prior to knockback. Not sure about the deetz.
Point is if you're crouching then you are already holding down, thus you DI downwards (which doesn't actually stop you from getting knocked back) and you also ASDI downwards, which causes you to bounce off the floor. Hence crouchcancelling is ASDI.


edit: obviously you can also ASDI with the c-stick which is ultimately more useful. but still.

 

[-ACE-]

Tai: ASDI downwards = crouch cancel, I don't think that CC'ing is a thing per se.

Crouch canceling isn't just ASDI down. The ASDI keeps you grounded, but crouching in itself cuts hitlag in half.

 

[Bones0]

Crouching also reduces knockback.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Tai: ASDI downwards = crouch cancel, I don't think that CC'ing is a thing per se.

crouch canceling and asdi down are really similar, and they do pretty much the same thing

it's just, crouch canceling actually happens when you're crouching
ASDI down happens when you're holding down during some other animation, like landing lag, taunt, or a grab

only real difference is that CCing works at WAY higher percents. it's why you see Peach players get u-smashed (by Fox) at like, 90 sometimes and go nowhere near dying

 

[StretchNutz]

Crouch canceling isn't just ASDI down. The ASDI keeps you grounded, but crouching in itself cuts hitlag in half.

derpy derp derpy derp derp
But regardless, that is useful information that I did not know.

 

[-ACE-]

Lol I know what hitlag is. Yeah basically that's the difference between crouch canceling and holding c-down while doing a move. 50% hitlag.

 

[StretchNutz]

so you're saying crouchcancelling reduces one's window to SDI by 50%

 

[Bones0]

so you're saying crouchcancelling reduces one's window to SDI by 50%

The fact that you have less time to SDI is pretty pointless because if you planned on SDIing the move, you shouldn't be holding down in the first place. More importantly, it enables you to crouch cancel counter because you aren't in hitlag for a century. Like in Falco dittos, if the opponent dairs you at 0% and you don't crouch cancel you can't do anything, but if you do crouch then it enables you to shine them because you have less stun. At least that's how I always thought it worked.

 

[-ACE-]

so you're saying crouchcancelling reduces one's window to SDI by 50%

ASDI is just like SDI which directly repositions your character slightly in that direction except the amount of movement is smaller, and instead of happening during hitlag it happens automatically (it's what the 'A' stands for) on the 1st frame of knockback right after hitlag based on the direction being held on either the control stick or c-stick, so unlike SDI you don't need to actually smash the direction for it to happen. Since it happens by simply holding a direction on either stick as hitlag ends you are ASDIing stuff all the time except it isn't usually noticeable since it's both a small distance and is also combined with the KB itself.

If a direction is being held on both sticks, then the direction on the c-stick is what's used for the ASDI. Because of that part, it lets you directional DI to change the launch angle on the control stick while also ASDIing in a different direction than the one being held on the control stick.

The reason holding down on the c-stick does a weaker 'crouch cancel' is because it does the main component of it which is ASDI downwards. A normal CC by holding down on the control stick is a combination of crouching (reduces the launch power/KB and halves the hitlag you get from the attack), ASDIing down into the floor to instantly land on the ground on the 1st frame of KB, and usually holding down also causes a lower launch angle which reduces the amount of upward movement from the KB that the ASDI has to overpower to keep you from leaving the ground.

ASDI like SDI is mostly helpful for escaping multihit attacks, low knockback hits/combos where normal trajectory DI has less of an overall impact on where you end up after the KB, for certain things like wall teching, and stuff that's specific to ASDI are for CCing and ground teching (since floors can't be SDI'd into).


You can also A/SDI during shield hitlag (c-stick can't be used for it obviously since it'd make you roll/dodge/jump with the shield being up). Shield ASDI is actually what makes the lightshield edgehog on Marth work. You ASDI off the edge and when the movement offstage from the ASDI is greater than the shield pushback from the attack towards the stage you slip off the edge and fall.

Holding towards someone while shielding their attack will make you ASDI towards them which keeps you closer and allows you to shieldgrab some things that you'd normally be pushed too far away to reach them. Doing the opposite, you can hold away while shielding Peach's d-smash to take less hits and damage to your shield while getting pushed out of range sooner to be able to punish.

Another thing you can do with shield A/SDI is stuff like SDIing Falco's shine away in your shield into a grab so if they multishine it doesn't reach you and they get grabbed, and if they jump out of the 1st shine then Ganon's tall enough to grab them out of their jump.


Using the c-stick to ASDI is only useful when the direction you want to ASDI is different from the direction you're going to be holding on the control stick. The reason being is that ASDI, which is the only thing the c-stick does as far as DI, is also read from the control stick anyway. Holding both sticks in the same direction results in the same thing as holding just the control stick in that direction.

ASDI happens on the same frame as the 1st frame of KB, while SDI happens before KB, so technically you're moving towards the ground while also moving up and away from the f-smash's KB at the same time. Whatever the net distance of those 2 is is your movement on the 1st KB frame. If the total vertical movement is into the ground you'll land in your regular air->ground landing animation if the KB is weak enough to not cause a knockdown/tumble (2, 4, 5, or 6 frames depending on the character), or you'll fall down directly on the floor or tech if the KB is strong enough to knockdown.

Anything that hits on the ground and has a launch angle of horizontal or lower and the KB is weak enough to not cause a knockdown can't be trajectory DI'd or A/SDI'd upwards or downwards (grounded stomps still launch downwards, they just bounce you off the floor and you go upwards once it begins causing a knockdown). Some examples are Fox's shine, Sheik's needles, Falco's d-air at lower damages, and the weakest hit of Ganon's reverse u-air.

Since the 'cancel' part in 'crouch cancel' requires you to ASDI down into the floor to cause a regular landing to cancel the stun with that animation, these attacks can't be crouch canceled. They can still be crouched, but all that does is reduce the launch power which reduces the stun by some since stun is calculated from it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9sa8133NBI#t=1m08s

He's in hitlag that entire time, so there's no KB actually happening at that point. SDI is what allows him to move around like that.

When rotating the stick along the outside for SDI it triggers by passing specific points depending on which direction you're rotating.

The ones with Pink arrows are the trigger points for clockwise rotation and the Blue arrows counter-clockwise. Once you cross over/pass those points it will trigger a SDI in the direction your stick is pointing if you're in hitlag. The Orange area is the area that can trigger SDI. Having the stick within the inner Blue area can't cause SDI.

Since there are only 4 points for a direction of rotation, some rotations are inefficient for getting a SDI. Starting at Down-Right and ending at straight Up would only cross one of those points and would result in 1 SDI, and so would starting at full Right and rotating like 10° upwards. If you were to start Right and go up slightly to cross that counter-clockwise point, and then go down slightly down to pass the clockwise point right below it you'd get 2 SDIs from rotation from only about 30° of total rotation.

It doesn't work for most characters when the hitlag is 10+ frames (hitbox does 21%+ of damage for normal attacks, or 12%+ damage for electrical attacks) unless you SDI back down towards the floor since they get lifted up and are no longer touching the floor after 9 frames of being in hitlag. Only DK, G&W, Jiggs, Kirby, and Mewtwo stay along the floor after that point. If the hitlag is 9 or less than every character can do it just fine.

Also, it's only really useful for surviving KO hits with launch angles that are about 50° or lower. When the angle is too vertical the upwards KB starts overpowering what the ASDI down can do before the point you'd start dying from the attack anyway.

Characters with extremely low traction and poor recoveries from low and out like Luigi will slide very far off afterwards and be unable to make it back much earlier than if they just survival DI'd it. It's probably just Luigi who's better off always DIing normally and not teching for diagonal and lower KO hits though.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4854764#post4854764

also this includes a list of attack's launch angles and the top speeds of those angles that are techable with dual-stick DI:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7078167#post7078167

Some other questions you may have might be answered here.

 

[StretchNutz]

yeah like I'm gonna read a huge wall of purple text.

and bones: I'm sure you're right. I wouldn't know cause I've never played Falco in my life.

you learn new little things every day I guess.

 

[-ACE-]

yeah like I'm gonna read a huge wall of purple text.

and bones: I'm sure you're right. I wouldn't know cause I've never played Falco in my life.

you learn new little things every day I guess.

Well, if you don't, you'll probably continue to have misconceptions about DI, and I will have wasted 15 seconds finding the post. Lol.

Back to anti-shield pressure, this is a great concept imo, hopefully we can find ways to be innovative somehow.

 

[Strong Badam]

Crouch canceling isn't just ASDI down. The ASDI keeps you grounded, but crouching in itself cuts hitlag in half.

It does not.
It does decrease initial knockback by 1/3rd of the knockback though.

 

[Problem2]

I'm going to try the hold A and press Z thing. Link gets shield pressured really badly. His whole game is practically built around running away from shield pressure.

 

[Mooo]

up-b oos and you're good

 

[-ACE-]

It does not.
It does decrease initial knockback by 1/3rd of the knockback though.

Hey, maybe you're right and magus is wrong, just from my experience it seems that it cuts it in half though.

edit:

The reason holding down on the c-stick does a weaker 'crouch cancel' is because it does the main component of it which is ASDI downwards. A normal CC by holding down on the control stick is a combination of crouching (reduces the launch power/KB and halves the hitlag you get from the attack), ASDIing down into the floor to instantly land on the ground on the 1st frame of KB, and usually holding down also causes a lower launch angle which reduces the amount of upward movement from the KB that the ASDI has to overpower to keep you from leaving the ground.

 

[Acryte]

up-b oos and you're good

lol unless they recover fast enough to shield the up-b and then get a free grab.

Yea shield toggling has been around for a long time, most people haven't found it to be too useful. If it actually provides a benefit though would be nice, though switching using L/R is probably an easier option. Only character that would benefit from this alot would be yoshi considering his egg slides like a mother ****er.

Thing is against a falco lets say, shield toggling starts out as hard shielding then goes to light shielding. It would be more useful to light shield the first dair since you'll slide more away from that and won't eat extra shield damage from starting the light shield later on to escape.

 

[Strong Badam]

Hey, maybe you're right and magus is wrong, just from my experience it seems that it cuts it in half though.

You are correct, it does indeed cut hitlag in half for the victim. My bad; however, the 1/3rd knockback reduction is correct.
I asked Magus then tested myself to convince myself.

 

[Vist]

good to know

 

[mers]

I really like this lightshield trick, I wanna start using it. Quick lightshield shenanigans are fun to look at.

Something else people should learn to do: powershield out of shield. If you drop your shield it counts as down while your character goes through the shield drop animation. This means that you can press it again to powershield. It looks sick as hell and can be super awesome against shield pressure if your character has good options out of a powershield (Peach).

 

[voorhese]

ive never heard of or seen this, i dont even see it being possible...example?

 

[Bones0]

You can't shield drop into a shield. The soonest you can do anything out of a shield drop is the third frame, and on that frame you are considered in the air. Shielding on that frame would just cause you to air dodge.

Frame 1: Shield
Frame 2: Pass animation
Frame 3: You're airborne

You can power shield on frame 1, but that is just a regular power shield. Perhaps you are thinking of buffered shield drops? There's just no way to shield on frame 1 and then shield again before you drop through into the air. It wouldn't be useful anyway. It would be insanely difficult, risky, and would give you a smaller window to punish whatever attack the person is using.

 

[Jonas]

Magus should write a book about the technical aspect of Melee

or someone could write a book by copying Magus' posts.

 

[Zodiac]

I just pay attention to their play style and wait for that small moment where they aren't hitting my shield and either do something oos or roll away, whichever is more feesable.

 

[Jonas]

Honestly though, the best way to avoid shield pressure is avoid shielding. If you block an attack instead of simply evading, you're asking to get shield *****.
Maybe try baiting an approach by shielding and wd or do an aerial oos before you get hit. Or maybe just play the spacing game by running back and forth etc.

Sometimes you can do fun stuff with shield though. If you have a long grab range (like Marth has) you can like lightshield Falco's Dair and get pushed away from his shine so you can shield grab him. Some characters can also tilt their shield up or towards to make the attack hit earlier, letting you shield grab before they can follow up.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Why doesn't Magus have a site with all his findings like M2K does?
I just buffer roll everything, makes it almost impossible to be shield pressured (Aerial>Shine-wise)
Just tilt your shield above and forward.

 

[voorhese]

i cant test this, can someone see if you can drop your lightshield into a normal shield right after you get hit, so they will hit the light shield and then the normal shield with a non fast falled aerial?

i doubt this will work though, if you cant drop your shield i doubt you can change the type of shield then also.

 

[Bones0]

It won't work for the reason I explained above. You could go from light shield to hard shield right before you shield drop, but that wouldn't make you power shield, and their aerial can only hit your shield once. The only way I could see someone shielding again was if you did a platform cancelled aerial from the shield drop and then L-cancelled into a second shield. That would only work against slow-arsed shield pressure though.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Also....Light shield has more hitstun.

 

[mers]

You can't shield drop into a shield. The soonest you can do anything out of a shield drop is the third frame, and on that frame you are considered in the air. Shielding on that frame would just cause you to air dodge.

Frame 1: Shield
Frame 2: Pass animation
Frame 3: You're airborne

You can power shield on frame 1, but that is just a regular power shield. Perhaps you are thinking of buffered shield drops? There's just no way to shield on frame 1 and then shield again before you drop through into the air. It wouldn't be useful anyway. It would be insanely difficult, risky, and would give you a smaller window to punish whatever attack the person is using.

I've been trying to track down a video I saw recently. It's some Marth who powershields a Falco dair or nair when he's already shielding. In the Youtube comments he explains that he dropped his shield and powershielded really fast.

EDIT: found it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZmQEqmfduI#t=02m56s

 

[Bones0]

I've been trying to track down a video I saw recently. It's some Marth who powershields a Falco dair or nair when he's already shielding. In the Youtube comments he explains that he dropped his shield and powershielded really fast.

EDIT: found it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZmQEqmfduI#t=02m56s

LOL he means he dropped his shield, as in let go of L/R, and then he shielded again so that it would powershield. You need to be on a platform to shield drop...

 

[mers]

LOL he means he dropped his shield, as in let go of L/R, and then he shielded again so that it would powershield. You need to be on a platform to shield drop...

Hahaha that's what I meant as well. I guess my original post could have been confusing.

But no. I meant that people should learn to powershield when they're already shielding. It could be really handy for beating shield pressure, seeing as you could do it at any point.