Andross for Brawl! Starfox needs a cool enemy

[T-major]

=P. Who said all the Wolf supporters are making fun of him? Im not. I like his creativity but I dont like the idea of being a sceintific monkey. Everyones not insulting him so take a chill-pill dude.

I'm talking about the majority of them. your one of the better ones. but the other 40+ people who posted on here have done nothing but flame and ridicule somebody because of there opinion. they have yet to realise that people dont need to want Wolf in Brawl. they come in here, and say "Wolf FTW!!" then act like it's a bad thing that somebody prefers a different character, and that they shouldn't be allowed to want another character besides Wolf.

Bowserlick has already said why he thinks Andross would be a better character. and why he thinks that is his opinion. but thats not good enough for most of you. you try and tell him why his opinion is wrong, and try and make him think what you want him to. which you have no right to do! and yet you act like I'm doing something wrong, because I'm supporting some ones ideas, and not instantly bashing them.

 

[Wolf_FTW]

yes i know and i kind of agree with you im not saying your doing anything wrong but you do realise that what your posting is just going to get them all flamed up again dont you?>

 

[I love lamp]

I can see andross being a cool boss character in smash, aside from that I'm a bit skeptical .

 

[Konuk]

I know the perfect place to put andross in... if there still gonna do the shooting thing in Brawl then he should be in the End credits when u have to shoot the credits yep he's in brawl but not playable :D

 

[Stryks]

Why did u revived this thread?! Let it die already!! and yeah good idea ...

 

[Red Exodus]

What's stopping Andross from being a clone of Fox? They are from the same game so don't say 'Wolf is just gonna be a clone' because anybody can be a clone, regardless of their game or series.

 

[Kashakunaki]

Okay, okay, okay. ENOUGH!

Though I disagree with Bowserlick, from what I've see none of you are making a very persuassive arguement and are just argueing based on your fandom. I doubt there is a bigger Star Fox in here than me, but I'm going to debate this properly.

Bowserlick, your arguement and points?

 

[Bowserlick]

Alright, good idea. Now before I glean over my points, I have to make the focus of this debate clear. I am debating why I think Andross would have a chance of entering Brawl.

I could go on and on about how why I like him as a character but that is mostly opinion based. Many people here say he has no chance of entering. He does have a chance if we look at the past history of other melee games.

And by the way I am supporting Andross with a body. And still I say he has a chance of making it.

Here are my points for Andross making the game as a playable character with a body.

1. He was regular size and had a body in Command.

2. He was the main villain of Star Fox and the main focus point of many character plots and game plots in the Star Fox series. More so then Wolf and arguably more or just as much on the galaxy then Fox.

3. Sakurai stated that he didn't like clones. He also stated that Luigi would not be a secret character IF he came back. What does this mean? I take it that Sakurai is not going to include clones or Luigified characters if he could help it. And since now he has the resources and time I think this game will match what he envisions more so then Melee did. Which means I think Wolf has a low shot of getting in.

Wolf is so similar to fox in body structure, career, and experience that statistically he would have more of a chance of being a clone then not. Even people who want Wolf in see this. And this flies in the face of Sakurai's anticlone statements. This is still speculation but it is speculation with facts and statistics behind it.

So with Wolf out of the picture that leaves really only one villain left. Andross. And Andross could be made from scratch. Characters made from scratch in the past had very flavorful and fun movesets. Fox and C. Falcon.

4. Andross could use his scientific expertise and metal blocks to fight to give a new crazy way to fight. And lets face it Smash is about being wacky, zany, and bizarre. A monkey with a knowledge of atoms and physics who is intent on taking over the planet he was banned form is wacky and bizarre.

5. Sakurai likes suprising people with oddball characters from left field. Like Ness and C.Falcon in the first game. And Ice Climbers and G&W in the second. Andross would definately fit the category of an oddball suprise character.

 

[Stryks]

Wolf aint out of the picture, because sakurai stated he doesnt like clones, now if u consider the popularity of wolf, many have wanted him since melee, and still want him in brawl, that something that sakurai cant deny, and I dont care of they have similair body structure, so does jiglypuff and kirby, yet they arent clones, as well as peach and zelda, falco was a clone to fox only because sakurai did not had the time to make a moveset and add it into the game, thus he put foxs moves to falco so he can fill the roster, thus he was a filler, now with sakurai havin all the time in the world til the end of 2007, sakurai will have time to make every character unique, Now andross, sure he can be unique, but the fact that he wasnt even MENTIONED in sakurai's list proves he aint as popular as for say krystal or wolf, and the fact that many know him for being a giant floating head, with 2 hands without a body, arms or legs, and just givin him a body, well thats just ruining what the guy is famous for, why dont we take marios hat and give him a skull cap and shave his mustache, lets take links infamous green hat and give him a skull cap too, he'll if sonic makes it in lets take away his speed so he can surprise the gamers... also if sakurai wants characters to surpise us, he has already done that with pit, zamus, foxs new look and snake being in brawl, not to mention the other 2 3rd parties...

 

[Bowserlick]

I am not saying Wolf is out of the picture. He does have popularity. I am just saying that there seems to be strikes going against him. I don't think he is a guaranteed character by any means. And yes Kirby and Jiggs have very similar body structure but have unique moves that vary from each other. But remember Wolf and Fox are in the same game, they have the same career, they use the same weapons, they fly similar ships, and they are both canine leaders. Wolf was MADE to be a dark Fox McCloud. So you could even argue (using your logic) that since Wolf is famous for being the dark Fox he would have to be made similar, even clone like in order to capture his character.

I see what you are saying about Andross. But you went a little overboard with the example. Andross can still be a head with giant hands for his super smash attack when he grabs that glowing ball. And by using creativity, you can still capture the flavor of Andross. Such as giving him metal gloves that made him hover. That way his hands are still a very dominant part of his fighting style and are larger then usual because of the gloves. And Andross is known as a scientist. He made the fleet you fight. So having him with a body wouldn't be that out of character. Especially with Command exploring his past.

 

[Stryks]

I am not saying Wolf is out of the picture....

...This is still speculation but it is speculation with facts and statistics behind it.

So with Wolf out of the picture that leaves really only one villain left. Andross...

Yes yes u did...

 

[saberhof]

its just the same **** thing over and over again, why not just let this die, you made your 38 page point, now people please just let this die.

 

[Red Exodus]

I'd like it if Wolf and Andross made it, Krystal would be a nice addition as well. Since I'm Starfox fan I don't really care who makes it, just as long they play proper roles in Starfox (sorry Slippy,Peppy and Wolf's crew).

 

[Bowserlick]

O I guess I did say that. I don't think Wolf has that good of a chance.

And too you other guys, we are trying to have a debate. If you are going to just throw in a dumb sentence or two without any real points then don't bothering posting.

 

[Stryks]

I, after 39 pages of discussion, STILL cant see andross in brawl, everyone kow him as the big head and 2 hands, sure it cold be his speacil, but thats who he is,my explanation of takin away marios hat isnt that farfetched, because u taking away his uniqueness, why hes famous for, and we cant call andross exactly famous for say, but hes recognizable, and even tough andross as shown with a body in command, that still doesnt convinces me, I kow he had a body, but rite know all the characters are gettin upgrades in their look: pit, fox, wario, link, and u get the idea, givin him a body he never used in the game from his past (the part were he had a body was a picture or not?) jut so he can appear in a game were the players recognize him by being a giant floating head with 2 hands were almost every one of those players dont even want him,seems pretty pointless IMO... adn wolf has a high chance, being a clone or not (tough doubt it), cause u know popularity counts, and many have wanted him, including myself, in smash...

 

[Kirye]

Guess i'll throw in my 2 cents.

No.

..Oh right, I have to give reasoning for it.

For starters, being the villain or not, he's not popular, he's just that big head at the end of the star fox games that you have to kill, unlike many other villains in Melee, Andross creates NO hype to the players.

For example, you're playing Ocarina of Time for the first time, right? You get to the part right outside of Hyrule castle as a child when Zelda runs away with Impa, and Ganondorf appears.. GASP, it's Ganondorf!! When you see him, he creates much more hype to the players, and there's a bigger story behind him. Now Andross: *Beat level 4* Okay, we did it, we must stop Andross! *Beginning of the first level* Look at what Andross has done! We must stop him! And when you get to him, it's just a big head with 2 big hands, nothing special about him, more like you just wanna kill him so you can beat the game already.

This applies to every villain in Melee/Brawl. There's something about a character that creates a hype in a person. Since we're talking about villains, who remains..? Mewtwo and Bowser?

Mewtwo has his fan base from the movie "Pokemon: The first movie", where he was an immensely strong figure with incredible psychic powers, and was the main antagonist in the movie. Aside from that, he was also the game's strongest (By popular opinion) pokemon. And Bowser, besides being in many Mario games, both a hero and a villain, he has an attitude to him! Mostly shown in Super Mario Sunshine and Super Mario RPG, where he's a spunky dragon/turtle with an enraged attitude. What does Andross have? Nothing! Very small fanbase, creates absolutely no hype, it's just a big face. Sure, you say he'll have a body in Brawl, but nonetheless he's just so.. unimportant. He could easily be compared to Wham Bam Rock from Kirby Super Star, a big head with 2 hands, and as we know that's just a generic boss.

Now Wolf on the other hand. He's got a much bigger fanbase, more attitude, creates a hype around him, and he was also in the Melee intro video fighting Fox. If Andross was so great, that Nintendo would've seen him as important to the masses, they would have had a video of fox shooting at Andross wouldn't they? Not fighting his main rival. I know Wolf and Fox seem so similar, but this is Nintendo we're talking about, they could give the sandbag a moveset and none of us would even expect it, so of course they could make Wolf different from Fox and Falco.

Now, on to my next point. Him with a body.. No. It's a fat monkey head, repeated again, and again, and he always has been. Give him a body, draw me one, and tell me with his figure and shape, he'll appear to be something that even looks half decent, especially on a game like Smash Bros. Sure, Nintendo can do anything, especially giving Ridley a size worthy of Brawl, but that's because he has been Samus' size before, Andross on the other hand has always been a giant head, be it that he was a proffesor or whatever you said he was. I won't delve on this point long enough, no point in it.

Sooo, as it stands, no Andross for Brawl, Wolf for Brawl/Fox's main rival!

 

[Stryks]

Kirye totally agree with him, there are character that provoke hype, after the release of melee, I only played like 2 hours with my cousins cube, one day I went to a eb game store, got the melee strategy guide, and when I saw mewtwo i was like wtf?! Mewtwo?! awesome! and then i saw mr GaW, and I tough hmm interesting, thats it, sur emewtwo was a disapointment but he can be fixed, returnin with the gaw thing, that will happen to andross, if I see him (which i know i wont) in a brawl trailer I would go WTF?1 HES IN?! but thats it, no interest in using him, no interested in his persona, look, stats nothing, wough If I c wolf, i will inmediatly think, hmm what moves would he use, the machine guns? does he uses claw-like attacks, what are his stats and stuff like that, this happen with pit and snake, zamus was interesting but not really, same with metaknight, the wings thing surprised me, and wario, well no, pit i was thrilled to c him, being a retro fan, when i saw the bow become daggers i tought, how would that work, what moves would he have, can u aim with the bow, and stuff like that, same with snake, now andross doesnt intrigue me like others, and wont cause hes popular with a body, take that away u ruin the persona, I see him with a body I wouldnt beinterested in the moveset cause he doesnt provoque (spelling FTW!) hype like wolf would, krystal, ridley and others... and so 39 pages after, still say no 4 andross...

 

[SatanX]

Naw not andross its most likely gonna be wolf

 

[Bowserlick]

Kirye, you make a great point. Andross doesn't really have the attitude that other villains have. But then again I feel that about most Star Fox characters. They seem flat and all seem to fit perfectly into a chiched archtype.

But I felt Fox seems a little more in depth after Smash Brothers Melee. Maybe because of how Sakurai captured his attitude in his fighting style. I guess I kinda hope they do the same thing for Andross to give him a second chance.

Because I love his concept but it was horribly executed.

 

[Kirye]

I think i'm gonna replay SF64 just to try and reminesce with those characters, I only rented Assault so I can't replay that, and i've only played Command with my friends DS.

You're right though, the SF characters have little attitude to them. But here's how i've always seen it.. (Some of them can probably be way off, it's just my minds general opinion.)

Fox- The leader of the gang, he wants to fight for justice, and at the same time avenge his father, but at the same time he has a bit of competetive spirit in him against Falco.
Falco- Right under Fox, he always wants to be shown ahead, trying to be the hero. He also has a kind of attitude that attracts players, where he's always seemed so cocky.
Slippy- He's somewhat easy-going, but can be pretty serious at the same time. In the cockpit of an Arwing though (Is that what they were called? >.<; ) he's fairly careless.
Peppy- The old experienced fighter pilot. He's more the kind of person who wants things done right and carefully, instead of winging things like Fox and Falco seem to do.

Wolf- Fox's rival. Everytime they fight, Wolf comes in with a better ship prepared to take him down, but fails. He's also fairly cocky, as Falco is, especially the one line I remember most from him.. "You're good.. But i'm better!"
Andross- When you reach him at the final level, it's as if he has no character at all, except a mind bent on the destruction of Star Fox, and full control of the Lylat system.

I gotta go soon, so i'll skip the rest of the members.

To be honest though, most of these characters have more of a attitude to them than Link does, and he's in Brawl, along with him being the main hero of every Zelda game.

If Andross was created from the beginning of Star fox as maybe a fighter pilot with an enormous ship, and had somewhat of a Wolfish attitude, plus a real human body to show rather than the commonly used head and hands, he might've made an excellent addition to Brawl, but seeing as how that never became the case, it seems kind of late now, after so many generations of Nintendo and Star Fox, for him to seem anything different. And judging chronological views, Andross is dead, and unlike Ganondorf, who has appeared multiple times in different chronological times in the Zelda series, Andross is only one entity, against one hero.

Any character could've become good for Brawl, judging whether Nintendo had made them important or not, and memorable characters or just another blockade to reaching the end credits. >.<

 

[yoshiherder]

Alright, good idea. Now before I glean over my points, I have to make the focus of this debate clear. I am debating why I think Andross would have a chance of entering Brawl.

I could go on and on about how why I like him as a character but that is mostly opinion based. Many people here say he has no chance of entering. He does have a chance if we look at the past history of other melee games.

And by the way I am supporting Andross with a body. And still I say he has a chance of making it.

Here are my points for Andross making the game as a playable character with a body.

1. He was regular size and had a body in Command.
Great. And James was alive in Command, so let's toss Fox out and put in James.

2. He was the main villain of Star Fox and the main focus point of many character plots and game plots in the Star Fox series. More so then Wolf and arguably more or just as much on the galaxy then Fox.
StarFox, not StarAndross. Andross is central in one of 5 SFs, IIRC. Wolf and Fox are far more important overall, Krystal, too.

3. Sakurai stated that he didn't like clones. He also stated that Luigi would not be a secret character IF he came back. What does this mean? I take it that Sakurai is not going to include clones or Luigified characters if he could help it. And since now he has the resources and time I think this game will match what he envisions more so then Melee did. Which means I think Wolf has a low shot of getting in.
Luigi's coming back. :\ Wolf has the popularity, the potential, and the eligibility to make it in, and Andross is lacking a few. Additionally, Wolf was meant to be in Melee, and Andross was not.

Wolf is so similar to fox in body structure, career, and experience that statistically he would have more of a chance of being a clone then not. Even people who want Wolf in see this. And this flies in the face of Sakurai's anticlone statements. This is still speculation but it is speculation with facts and statistics behind it.
Incorrect. Luigi, Kirby, Peach, and Samus are all great counterexamples. You've seen copious amounts of unique movesets and essays why it will not happen. We could say Andross would be a clone of DK by your logic.

So with Wolf out of the picture that leaves really only one villain left. Andross. And Andross could be made from scratch. Characters made from scratch in the past had very flavorful and fun movesets. Fox and C. Falcon.
He's not out of the picture. Andross WOULD HAVE TO BE made from scratch, but Fox was not.

4. Andross could use his scientific expertise and metal blocks to fight to give a new crazy way to fight. And lets face it Smash is about being wacky, zany, and bizarre. A monkey with a knowledge of atoms and physics who is intent on taking over the planet he was banned form is wacky and bizarre.
Wacky? Not really. Andross is psychotic, great. So b/c he took High School Chem, he now has a leg up on everyone else?

5. Sakurai likes suprising people with oddball characters from left field. Like Ness and C.Falcon in the first game. And Ice Climbers and G&W in the second. Andross would definately fit the category of an oddball suprise character.
Ness, ICs, G&W, and CF were not particularly surprising. Also note these "Suprise" characters represent their own franchise, while your Andross has to make it in an existing franchise where rep spots are tightly contended.

Guess who's back?

 

[Stryks]

Whyd u revive this thread??... I want it DEAD... still u make very good points, im hopin with this we can finally end the andross thing being in brawl, cause it gets tiring...

 

[Kashakunaki]

I'm some what lazy and unconcentrated now, so pardon me if my thoughts and responses aren't very detailed or discombobulated.

I have to make the focus of this debate clear. I am debating why I think Andross would have a chance of entering Brawl

Now, are you debating this or why Wolf has less a chance than Andross? Most of your arguements seem to be comparitive to why Wolf doesn't have that great a chance.

1. He was regular size and had a body in Command.

True, but it was a mere stand still portrait. This does prove that he could have a body, but one ten second instance in the history of the Star Fox franchise where Andross has a body doesn't mean much. Not in the sense that he can't have a body, obviously he can. This has to do with something similar that Kirya pointed out. It deprives him of his character. It isn't Andross. Those fans that know him as the ape with the head and hands you shoot the crap out of could be dissapointed and lose interest.

2. He was the main villain of Star Fox and the main focus point of many character plots and game plots in the Star Fox series. More so then Wolf and arguably more or just as much on the galaxy then Fox.

True, he is a common center point throughout the Star Fox series. Three out of five games involve him as the main villian. No doubt about that. However, three out of five games also involve Wolf as his team as major antagonists as well. Also, I'd just like throw in this comment: I notice a lot of the time you refer to Star Wolf as Andross' peons. That was in but 1/5 Star Fox games and that was the only game that they were together in (SF64). Also, it could be argued that the only reason Wolf worked for Andross in the first place was because he was getting paid to do what he would do anyways. I digress.

3. Sakurai stated that he didn't like clones. He also stated that Luigi would not be a secret character IF he came back. What does this mean? I take it that Sakurai is not going to include clones or Luigified characters if he could help it. And since now he has the resources and time I think this game will match what he envisions more so then Melee did. Which means I think Wolf has a low shot of getting in.

I find that statement to be a little contradictory, that or I'm misunderstanding. The mentality that Sakurai has doesn't necessarly mean he will attempt to avoid characters with clone potential (which could be any two people, for instance Ganon and CF). I think it implies more that he would work to declone as much characters as possible, which I don't see being too hard.

Wolf is so similar to fox in body structure, career, and experience that statistically he would have more of a chance of being a clone then not. Even people who want Wolf in see this. And this flies in the face of Sakurai's anticlone statements. This is still speculation but it is speculation with facts and statistics behind it.

True, very true. Statistically he has a greater chance of being a clone then say someone like Ness and Poo from Earthbound but less than say Mario and Dr. Mario. However, that doesn't mean it would be all that difficult to come up with a new movesets. If movesets can be created from scratch with no refrences, then I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to declone or keep a character from becoming a clone.

So with Wolf out of the picture that leaves really only one villain left. Andross. And Andross could be made from scratch. Characters made from scratch in the past had very flavorful and fun movesets. Fox and C. Falcon.

That doesn't bring Wolf out of the picture, but for the sake of this debate, let's say yes. Afterall, when you stated the focus of this debate you didn't say, "Why Andross has a better chance than Wolf."

4. Andross could use his scientific expertise and metal blocks to fight to give a new crazy way to fight. And lets face it Smash is about being wacky, zany, and bizarre. A monkey with a knowledge of atoms and physics who is intent on taking over the planet he was banned form is wacky and bizarre.

I could not agree more. Well said. True, that type of character would indeed be fun. But you know what else Smash is about? Fanservice. It's all about the fans. People wants to have Mario back thrown Bowser. What happens if the main villian of Mario meets the main villian of Zelda? It wouldn't be a very successful fan tribute if they didn't have Fox's archrival so Fox and Wolf can duke it out.

5. Sakurai likes suprising people with oddball characters from left field. Like Ness and C.Falcon in the first game. And Ice Climbers and G&W in the second. Andross would definately fit the category of an oddball suprise character.

He would, but do you believe that a main villian should really fall into the "surprising and oddball" category? A main anatagonist should have a little more to him than that.

 

[Starmanclock]

This idea will never work for Brawl because he has no body.

 

[BobbyHobbes]

Wrong. Andross was the original villain. He needs to be represented. Krystal and Wolf haven't been in nearly as many games.

a playable of Andross would be a stretch though...personally i think he should be a stage hazard, like Kraid was in SSBM

 

[Konuk]

Wow i was goona type that :D thanks godzilla. Stage idea is perfect for him

 

[Kashakunaki]

God, took me forever to find this thread. No, Andross is feasible, just about any character is feasible, for Brawl.

I've got a moveset for Wolf in mind that I'll be typing up and posting here and in the moveset thread. I promise it won't be very clone like. And this is coming from the guy with a mind infinitely less creative than that of the Smash team.

 

[Stryks]

Why did u bump this thread??!!... I want it dead!!

 

[Bowserlick]

Blue comments represent my counter arguments. Red comments represent "Yoshiherders"s counter-comments. And gray lettering represents my original comments.

Alright, good idea. Now before I glean over my points, I have to make the focus of this debate clear. I am debating why I think Andross would have a chance of entering Brawl.

I could go on and on about how why I like him as a character but that is mostly opinion based. Many people here say he has no chance of entering. He does have a chance if we look at the past history of other melee games.

And by the way I am supporting Andross with a body. And still I say he has a chance of making it.

Here are my points for Andross making the game as a playable character with a body.

1. He was regular size and had a body in Command.
Great. And James was alive in Command, so let's toss Fox out and put in James.

Many people claim that Andross never had a body in any Star Fox games, this was written to provide proof that he had a body in a StarFox game. And I am not stating that Fox should be thrown out so another character can be added. Fox has to stay.

2. He was the main villain of Star Fox and the main focus point of many character plots and game plots in the Star Fox series. More so then Wolf and arguably more or just as much on the galaxy then Fox.
StarFox, not StarAndross. Andross is central in one of 5 SFs, IIRC. Wolf and Fox are far more important overall, Krystal, too.

Wolf and Krystal are not far more important. Without Andross they would not even be involved in a epic saga. Andross created the disturbance and choas that Krystal, Wolf, and Fox had to stabalize. Andross is the center core of the StarFox dilemma with the other characters reacting to his actions. Sounds important to me.

3. Sakurai stated that he didn't like clones. He also stated that Luigi would not be a secret character IF he came back. What does this mean? I take it that Sakurai is not going to include clones or Luigified characters if he could help it. And since now he has the resources and time I think this game will match what he envisions more so then Melee did. Which means I think Wolf has a low shot of getting in.
Luigi's coming back. :\ Wolf has the popularity, the potential, and the eligibility to make it in, and Andross is lacking a few. Additionally, Wolf was meant to be in Melee, and Andross was not.

Wolf is so similar to fox in body structure, career, and experience that statistically he would have more of a chance of being a clone then not. Even people who want Wolf in see this. And this flies in the face of Sakurai's anticlone statements. This is still speculation but it is speculation with facts and statistics behind it.
Incorrect. Luigi, Kirby, Peach, and Samus are all great counterexamples. You've seen copious amounts of unique movesets and essays why it will not happen. We could say Andross would be a clone of DK by your logic.

Luigi is not a great counterexample. He actually proves my point that characters from the same game, with the same weapons, career, and moves will have similar looking attacks. Plus Wolf and Fox are from the same game. Kirby and Jiggs have a similar body but they come from different universes and have different roles and therefore, much more flavor. Wolf was made as a "bad" Fox. So he is almost exactly the same except "bad." Making Wolf too different from Fox would actually go against his character in the game.

So with Wolf out of the picture that leaves really only one villain left. Andross. And Andross could be made from scratch. Characters made from scratch in the past had very flavorful and fun movesets. Fox and C. Falcon.
He's not out of the picture. Andross WOULD HAVE TO BE made from scratch, but Fox was not.

Fox was bascially made from scratch. In fact Fox had no moves except for his laser that made it to the original Smash game. Andross can use metal blocks from his games as well as new innovative moves. I don't see what you are trying to say.

4. Andross could use his scientific expertise and metal blocks to fight to give a new crazy way to fight. And lets face it Smash is about being wacky, zany, and bizarre. A monkey with a knowledge of atoms and physics who is intent on taking over the planet he was banned form is wacky and bizarre.
Wacky? Not really. Andross is psychotic, great. So b/c he took High School Chem, he now has a leg up on everyone else?

That is opinion. He still would be bizarre, you have to give me that. And Smash is suppose to be a bizarre game.

5. Sakurai likes suprising people with oddball characters from left field. Like Ness and C.Falcon in the first game. And Ice Climbers and G&W in the second. Andross would definately fit the category of an oddball suprise character.
Ness, ICs, G&W, and CF were not particularly surprising. Also note these "Suprise" characters represent their own franchise, while your Andross has to make it in an existing franchise where rep spots are tightly contended.

This I agree with you on. I see your point. Which is way most of my arguments are anti-Wolf which indirectly effects Andross's chances. Since Wolf is a big contender for the villain spot.

 

[Bowserlick]

Gray comments are my original comments, red represents Kaskukanki's comments and blue represents my coutner arguments.


Quote:
I have to make the focus of this debate clear. I am debating why I think Andross would have a chance of entering Brawl


Now, are you debating this or why Wolf has less a chance than Andross? Most of your arguements seem to be comparitive to why Wolf doesn't have that great a chance.

I am debating why Andross has a chance. But remember Andross has competition in the villain department. And that competition is Wolf. So I have to compare the two in order to show that Sakurai can choose Andross over Wolf to place in Brawl. Sorry if that was confusing.

Quote:
1. He was regular size and had a body in Command.

True, but it was a mere stand still portrait. This does prove that he could have a body, but one ten second instance in the history of the Star Fox franchise where Andross has a body doesn't mean much. Not in the sense that he can't have a body, obviously he can. This has to do with something similar that Kirya pointed out. It deprives him of his character. It isn't Andross. Those fans that know him as the ape with the head and hands you shoot the crap out of could be dissapointed and lose interest.

I wouldn't say it deprives him of his character. Fox never fought out of his plane before the first Smash game (except for shooting laser in battlemode of 64). So it could be argued that Fox should have stayed in his ship and not of been entered in a fighting game. But it worked out great. Now Fox games include him outside of his ship. So I would say it could only really enhance his character. Besides if Sakurai designs Andross right he can still capture the floating hands and head concept and still grant the monkey a body. Just see my moveset on the first page to see how. Easily solved.


Quote:
2. He was the main villain of Star Fox and the main focus point of many character plots and game plots in the Star Fox series. More so then Wolf and arguably more or just as much on the galaxy then Fox.


True, he is a common center point throughout the Star Fox series. Three out of five games involve him as the main villian. No doubt about that. However, three out of five games also involve Wolf as his team as major antagonists as well. Also, I'd just like throw in this comment: I notice a lot of the time you refer to Star Wolf as Andross' peons. That was in but 1/5 Star Fox games and that was the only game that they were together in (SF64). Also, it could be argued that the only reason Wolf worked for Andross in the first place was because he was getting paid to do what he would do anyways. I digress.

True. Wolf did get paid. The argument is that Andross had arguably the most influence on the galaxy out of all the characters except for maybe Fox who had to put a halt to Andross's plans.

Quote:
3. Sakurai stated that he didn't like clones. He also stated that Luigi would not be a secret character IF he came back. What does this mean? I take it that Sakurai is not going to include clones or Luigified characters if he could help it. And since now he has the resources and time I think this game will match what he envisions more so then Melee did. Which means I think Wolf has a low shot of getting in.


I find that statement to be a little contradictory, that or I'm misunderstanding. The mentality that Sakurai has doesn't necessarly mean he will attempt to avoid characters with clone potential (which could be any two people, for instance Ganon and CF). I think it implies more that he would work to declone as much characters as possible, which I don't see being too hard.

I am referring to obvious clone potential. Gannondorf and C. Falcon do not have obvious clone potential. That was a suprise. But not many people would be suprised if Wolf was a Fox clone. In fact many proposed movesets have Wolf as a clone of Luigified clone. Why is this? Because the whole concept of Wolf (at least the original before he started to get some depth) was being the "bad" Fox. He has a fleet, he flies a similar ship, he even looks like a similar animal, and has the same occupation as a leader. The only difference comes from his moral restrictions and I guess he has one less eye as well. Typical rogue "anti-hero."


Quote:
Wolf is so similar to fox in body structure, career, and experience that statistically he would have more of a chance of being a clone then not. Even people who want Wolf in see this. And this flies in the face of Sakurai's anticlone statements. This is still speculation but it is speculation with facts and statistics behind it.


True, very true. Statistically he has a greater chance of being a clone then say someone like Ness and Poo from Earthbound but less than say Mario and Dr. Mario. However, that doesn't mean it would be all that difficult to come up with a new movesets. If movesets can be created from scratch with no refrences, then I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to declone or keep a character from becoming a clone.

Maybe not. But I am trying to step into Sakurai's shoes. It seems he loves to create movesets from scratch. And he loves a challenge. So basically it is fanservice versus flavor service in my eyes. Initially please the fans with a character they desire or gamble and perhaps please the fans more in the long run after some resistance with a more interestingly designed character. The Ice Climbers seem to be one of these risks. A more popular character could of easily taken the slot.


Quote:
So with Wolf out of the picture that leaves really only one villain left. Andross. And Andross could be made from scratch. Characters made from scratch in the past had very flavorful and fun movesets. Fox and C. Falcon.


That doesn't bring Wolf out of the picture, but for the sake of this debate, let's say yes. Afterall, when you stated the focus of this debate you didn't say, "Why Andross has a better chance than Wolf."

I said Andross has a chance. And if he has a chance then odds are he has to beat out Wolf (his main contender) for a covetted Starfox character spot.


Quote:
4. Andross could use his scientific expertise and metal blocks to fight to give a new crazy way to fight. And lets face it Smash is about being wacky, zany, and bizarre. A monkey with a knowledge of atoms and physics who is intent on taking over the planet he was banned form is wacky and bizarre.


I could not agree more. Well said. True, that type of character would indeed be fun. But you know what else Smash is about? Fanservice. It's all about the fans. People wants to have Mario back thrown Bowser. What happens if the main villian of Mario meets the main villian of Zelda? It wouldn't be a very successful fan tribute if they didn't have Fox's archrival so Fox and Wolf can duke it out.

I see your point. Wolf definately fits the fan service bill while Andross does not. But I think Wolf would be severly lacking in flavor. If he does make it in he should not have similar moves to Fox or (in my eyes) he is a waste of space. But then again Andross is the main villain. So you can repose your question as "What happens when the main villain of Mario meets the main villain of Starfox? And I still think Andross still has that title. At least he is more deserving of main villain then Wolf. I think fishes or something are the main villain presently.

Quote:
5. Sakurai likes suprising people with oddball characters from left field. Like Ness and C.Falcon in the first game. And Ice Climbers and G&W in the second. Andross would definately fit the category of an oddball suprise character.


He would, but do you believe that a main villian should really fall into the "surprising and oddball" category? A main anatagonist should have a little more to him than that.

In a game all about supirses, bizarre attacks, wacky movesets, and oddball choices I would say he doesn't have too. But it is opinion. You can also say that the main antagonist should be more then a dark version of the hero. But again, personal choice.

 

[Kirye]

Wolf definately fits the fan service bill while Andross does not. But I think Wolf would be severly lacking in flavor

And Andross isn't? o.O He's a flying face with hands. =/

Andross has the title of the final boss in the game, but in most peoples eyes, the big villain people look forward to is Wolf.

Btw, do I get a special color coded debate against my post a page back too? =O

 

[Bowserlick]

Red is my response.

And Andross isn't? o.O He's a flying face with hands. =/

That is creative and flavorful. No other Nintendo character was like that. However, the darker version of the hero thing has been done before. It is old.

Andross has the title of the final boss in the game, but in most peoples eyes, the big villain people look forward to is Wolf.

Wolf has the popularity thing going for him. But in my eyes, little else. He seems like an uninspired character.

Btw, do I get a special color coded debate against my post a page back too? =O

yes, later

 

[Kirye]

Lol, you didn't have to reply to those, I just felt I should add something to the color coded debate question. XD

 

[Bowserlick]

All the colors look pretty.

 

[Kashakunaki]

Yes... I'm enjoying the colors. Though, it's late and I'm a little too tired to make any points. However, my Wolf move set is under development and I like what I have done with it so far. I'm having a lot of fun creating his move set. Normally I think move sets are stupid and prove no real point other than to display a character's probability, in which there are easier ways to display this. But it is a lot of fun and not very clone-esque at all. And I'm sure if my mind, one much less creative and imaginative of the Smash team, can make a cool and original moveset like this, I'm sure they can do better.

By the way, Bowserlick. I was in the move set thread today and I noticed your Wolf move set. And, no offense, but I thought it disgusting. The claw idea was just pulled out of someone's *** and was way over used. I also didn't think it fit the bill to Wolf's character. Just my opinion. Not trying to be rude or condescending.

 

[Stryks]

I actually liked bowserlicks wolf moveset, kinda unique...

Dont take this the wrong way bowserlick, i STILL hate andross...

 

[shadenexus18]

I actually liked bowserlicks wolf moveset, kinda unique...

Dont take this the wrong way bowserlick, i STILL hate andross...

I can't stand Andross either. He's a pansy, period.

 

[Kashakunaki]

Persuasive arguement, Shadenexus /sarcasm

I didn't like it. The claw was abused and didn't seem to fit with Wolf's character.

 

[Andross]

I ain't no stinkin' pansy.

Anyway, I don't want to see Andross in Brawl. Sure, he's a good character, but I would prefer to see Falco/Krystal and Wolf over him.

 

[Bowserlick]

I made two Wolf movesets. The first was a little iffy. That one is in the character move list thread. The second attempt on a Wolf moveset is located int he Wolf thread. Although I think that one uses the claw device even more.