An interesting observation about basic styles

[ashes]

I have an interesting observaion about the basics of a persons style of play that some may know while most i assume don't.
The very basics of a style of play is based on the combination of offense and defense, and people find a unique balance between them as a foundation for there style. Further this all is unconsciously done based on the players reaction speed.
For an example:

DM is a very offensive player with not a lot of defensive play in his game. So based on that i can assume he has really fast reactions therefore allowing that style to suit him.

Arean has a very good balance between offense and defense, which implies that he is some what fast but still has to rely on defense(by waiting for the opponent to mess up).

Naks is very defensive and so I assume he is has slow reactions and so is forced to wait for the opponent to make the mistake befroe he can punish.

So what is the point of knowing this? There are two reasons:

1. SO you can develop the style that suits you best. You should know how fast your reactions are and base your style on it accordingly.
2. because now you should easily and quickly be able to recognize your oppenents basic style and play accordingly. That means that you should figure out before hand how to play against each of the three styles so that you can easily apply it.

I think this in some why connects to how people choose there main as well but it is alittle more indepth.
So this seems logical and can be helpful if you can figure out how to fight each style. Plus it will help you against any character since I believe all players have these basic styles.

So what do you guys think? Does my reasoning sound plausible? Do you think this will really help or have i just wasted some space?

 

[Oh Snap]

I wanna be an offensive Zelda, but it's really hard...to me anyway =P

 

[Rykoshet]

I think it more has to do with the opponent than the zelda honestly. Going all out offense against an ike when the ike can very well just choose to go on the defensive and punish, considering how well and hard ike punishes, is sticking your neck out. High risk for debatable reward. Naks does play a very reactionary "defensive" style though, so when he starts taking those extra risks I generally get caught by them pretty hard since I dont expect them too much.

 

[FinalKai]

I think your observations and analysis are correct to a degree. Personally, I think that though it may be easy to delineate three generalized groups of play style, each style is probably a lot more multifaceted and complicated than we're able discern. True, there is the obvious categories of offensive, defensive, and the midway...but we could probably delve further into each. For instance, there could be a fourth style, one that adapts and changes between the three, and evolves according to the circumstances of the battle. That is probably the wisest style in my opinion, but it's difficult to reach that level.

Generally, I think it's hard to discern a person's play style...It's like trying to define who they are and describe their personality, and it goes with out saying that everyone, despite how similar they may seem to one another, is completely different and their own, self-contained, individual.

You could easily go into a ton of philosophical debate/discussion/pondering in order to discuss individualism and how that relates to Brawl character selection and play style...but that's a fat-load of can-o-worms that is probably too serious/heavy to be opened on a thread like this - unless of course you decide to write about it for your thesis or some random college paper......could be amusing.

Still, it is fun to see which categories the recognized players on this board fall into...I wonder if we can pinpoint any other player's style...

 

[ashes]

Yes, absolutely. When I said basic I really did mean the absolute basic styles. Obviously each person has a niche in which they play. And of course the best players are able to adapt to the playing of their opponent. A persons style is unique and abstract in that you really can put it fully down on paper. And it really is just instinct as to how you come up with your own style and how you deal with your opponents.
However i do feel that many people do stick, to a certain extent, to the three basic styles(as i have named them) and if you do watch for them in any video of any character you can see some element of each style and which one they lean most toward.
Ultimately it really is just an interesting observation that I thought I would throw out there.

 

[FinalKai]

Indeed, it is a good observation.

Personally, when it comes to my own Zelda play style I think I play in more of a mid-ground between offensive in defensive...but it ultimately depends on the opponent and then on the situation. Most, of the time though, I tend to initially default to a defensive just so I can watch and discern what I can about my adversary before I make any offensive choices.

With my Zamus...who, admittedly, is actually better than my Zelda...I tend to be a bit more offensive, but in a tricky, eclectic way too keep things from being too predictable. Plus, Zamus thrives upon aggressive play...so you really have to maximize her speed, power, and grace to your benefit.

 

[PsychoKnight]

Good point you have there..my style came as I tended to adapt to my opponents style which usually where the same, as they go on an offensive, and ever since then my style stuck on me. My reactions with Zelda isnt that well developed yet, so for now I will use a defensive style to try and make up for my current flaws of Zelda

Zelda I will admit, is under Lucario for me skill wise(my other main), but I tend to use her with a defensive approach, when the person comes in distant(sometimes ill spam Dins Fire on purpose for the sake of mind games or just to attract them), and then get a bit aggressive pulling of fairs and bairs aka lighting kick, or even running up-smash. I tend to stay on the ground using Nayru's Love and tilt moves(down tilt really does annoy the opponent).

 

[SinkingHigher]

With all due respect... You could have posted this thread in any character forum...

Obviously you can play offense, defense or both. That's not really interesting, since those are the only ways anyone can play any fighting game, ever.

Well, at least the discussiong this thing sparked up might be able to be considered "interesting".

 

[ashes]

FinalKai: I noticed that when I watch some of yoiur Zelda vids. And I agree about Zamus as well. I main her but I am not as good as i could be because i lack really quick reflexes, but I am working on it. The nice thing about reflexes is that they can be improved.

 

[FinalKai]

FinalKai: I noticed that when I watch some of yoiur Zelda vids. And I agree about Zamus as well. I main her but I am not as good as i could be because i lack really quick reflexes, but I am working on it. The nice thing about reflexes is that they can be improved.

Yea, my Zamus game has only recently improved and I'm still trying to improve more...It's really easy to get carried away when playing as Zamus just cause you get caught up in her speed and being aggressive...so, I'm working on being more conscious of the various approaches and combos I use to keep my game fresh.

It's funny, cause once I actually accidentally interrupted a good string of attacks by using her Down B...and as soon as I did it, I went with it and it paid off a lot more than I expected. I guess catching myself off-guard also had the same effect on my opponent...so, I'm trying to incorporate more of those surprising gems into both my Zelda and Zamus game.

(Sorry for the Zamus deviation...my bad...hahahahaha...back to Zelda)

 

[__V]

Your observations aren't entirely accurate. Some people simply play differently against different characters. An example would be how I play offensively against large/slow characters while I play defensively against fast characters.

And it's SAMUS. S-A-M-U-S. Not Zamus.

 

[FinalKai]

And it's SAMUS. S-A-M-U-S. Not Zamus.

When I say Zamus, I mean Zero Suit Samus...just making sure you know...hahahaha.

 

[__V]

When I say Zamus, I mean Zero Suit Samus...just making sure you know...hahahaha.

I've seen people misspelling "Samus", "Zamus" since before Brawl. It'd be so much simpler if you'd simply say "ZSS".

 

[ashes]

Sinkinghigher: True I could have posted it any where but it seemed logical to me to post it here since all my exampls are mostly based of what i have seen of zelda players. And Yes I know it is obvious but had you previously really thought about it and reflected on how these three styles apply and affect you? My guess is probably not. And that is sort of what i amtrying to get at, that those thoughts then can help further your development of your style.

__V: I fully agree with that, but think about what you just said. You sort of proved my point. When you are playing against a slow character your reaction speed relative to your opponent is now faster so you can play an offensice game. But against a faster character your reflexes are not as quick and therefore you have to rely on your defensive game.
What I said in the original thread really was the basics, there is more to it and many variations of how every thing comes together, but just like in science, to examine you have to isolate what you are looking at initially and then look at the big picture.

 

[Nakayorz]

Sinkinghigher: True I could have posted it any where but it seemed logical to me to post it here since all my exampls are mostly based of what i have seen of zelda players. And Yes I know it is obvious but had you previously really thought about it and reflected on how these three styles apply and affect you? My guess is probably not. And that is sort of what i amtrying to get at, that those thoughts then can help further your development of your style.

__V: I fully agree with that, but think about what you just said. You sort of proved my point. When you are playing against a slow character your reaction speed relative to your opponent is now faster so you can play an offensice game. But against a faster character your reflexes are not as quick and therefore you have to rely on your defensive game.
What I said in the original thread really was the basics, there is more to it and many variations of how every thing comes together, but just like in science, to examine you have to isolate what you are looking at initially and then look at the big picture.

I play more aggressively/faster against faster characters that can't KO me in four moves I mainly get defensive when slow heavyweights turtle up.

I disagree with some of your analyzing at times ashes, but since you're putting the time and effort into trying to analyze as many videos as possible that everyone else on the board lacks the time and motivation to it's appreciated. Maybe when I have more time on my hands we can discuss perspectives.

 

[SinkingHigher]

Sinkinghigher: True I could have posted it any where but it seemed logical to me to post it here since all my exampls are mostly based of what i have seen of zelda players. And Yes I know it is obvious but had you previously really thought about it and reflected on how these three styles apply and affect you? My guess is probably not. And that is sort of what i amtrying to get at, that those thoughts then can help further your development of your style.

Not to sound cocky or anything, but I actually have.I suppose I can understand that this hasn't been realised by some people.

Personally, I play offensive. Very offensive. Zelda's moves protect her body, so it is difficult for certain short-range, non-projectile characters, like Wario, to escape from Zelda's multi-hit allrounders - n-air, F and U Smash/Tilts, NL, etc...

From what I've gathered from my own experience, the faster the character, the more defensive Zelda gets.

Bowser = Offensive.
Mario = Offense/Defense.
Marth = Defense.

Nevertheless, changing from one to the other controls the pace, which is a good thing for any player to be in control of.

This does change though if you also play with Sheik. Sheik's defense honestly isn't that great though.

 

[FinalKai]

I think in general players tend to act more offensively against characters who are larger/slower...just because the notion is already there that the bigger the target is, the easier it is to hit...and the slower the target it is, the easier it is to overwhelm.

Against faster/smaller characters people tend to take their time and wait for a moment to punish...just cause the faster caster is, by nature, able to overwhelm a player much more easily.

But applying this to Zelda...I think the developers intended her to be more of a defensive character...because even though she might be able to overwhelm Bowser a lot easier than she can overwhelm Sonic, there's still some risk involved. I have a friend who plays Bowser and even when I'm on the offensive I still have to be careful. Mainly do to the fact that he knows how I play, but also just because Zelda needs to be precise with her actions more so than most other characters...so playing defensively against fast characters is a better option than trying to match that character's speed just cause you need to more precisely allocate your offensive maneuvers to maximize your rewards.

Granted, this is just a blanket statement for the character that is Zelda. Everyone has a differently play style and uses her in different ways, but I'd imagine that every smart player's strategies revolve around these fundamentals to a certain degree.

 

[ashes]

I am going to have to say that though some think this thread is sort of pointless I am loving it. The discussion is awsome. Since I have really only seen people from there videos I try to discern who they are by how they play and from this thread I am learning I am right in some of my assumptions but wrong with others. i am mostly wrong with the 'why' part of how they play.

In regards to what FinalKai and Sinkinghigher said:
I agree that in gerneral most zeldas play an offensive game against slower opponents and defensive against faster opponents. I find it interesting however that Naks said he plays defensive against slow characters and offensive against fast. From what I have seen of him I don't agree but how can i argue that since I am not naks playing. But why do you say that naks, cause yes i see you play more offensive against some characters but still alot more defensively than many other players that I have seen?

As for me i picked Zelda as my second because I needed someone with a more defensive disposition, especially against ranged attacks. I main zss and second zelda both because they have to be precise in there attacks and therefore I feel like people who are really good with them actually have alot of skill and have developed it. I also picked zelda for the wide range of attacks(long range, short range and good smashes, decent recovery...etc.) she just has alittle of everything i think. In general I try to play a style that is balanced in offense and defense, to me every thing is about logic, and so I feel that logically the best style is the balance of Off., and Def. plus I am not very quick to react and such so a completely offensive game just does not suit me, in fact whenI tried it destroyed me.

 

[FinalKai]

I find it interesting however that Naks said he plays defensive against slow characters and offensive against fast. From what I have seen of him I don't agree but how can i argue that since I am not naks playing. But why do you say that naks, cause yes i see you play more offensive against some characters but still alot more defensively than many other players that I have seen?

Actually, I think what Naks meant to say is that, specifically, when character's like Ike turtle up...he assumes a more defensive/bait and punish stance. That is largely due to the fact that when Ike - or I guess more specificaly Ryko - turtles up, it's easy for Naks (or Zelda in general) to be punished. So, in order to remedy that, Naks goes on the defense and baits Ike into coming after him.

Specifically, if you notice in Naks's SoS matches against Ike...he starts off playing offensively against Ryko, and is actually doing a good job of landing hits and dodging Ryko's attacks...but as soon as Ryko is down to 1 stock, he turtles up, trying to bait Naks so he can punish him...Naks however goes on the defensive also, countering Ryko's turtle strategy with his own bait and punishment.

That's probably largely where you're seeing, and therefore categorizing, Naks as a defensive player. But his defensive play is applied only to that specific situation and not his gameplay as a whole against slower characters.

In fact, I think Naks is a hell of a lot more aggressive than I am with Zelda. I'm very cautious, sometimes too cautious...and vice versa goes for him at times as well.

Also what I think he means when he says he plays aggressively against fast characters is that, in the case of a match against someone like Zamus or Fox, the general battlefield is a lot more frantic and fast-paced...plus sitting around waiting for a fast character like Zamus to slip up can be detrimental to you as well. Naks probably pushes fast opponents more to deny them the opportunity to overwhelm him.

 

[ashes]

Oh. That Makes a ton more sense. lol I was so confused by what he said and how you stated it makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up. I was starting to think either me or Naks was loosing our grip on reality or something. And yes it is very true,I have only really seen Naks play against Rkyo, so I do really have a very limited view of how he really plays, and that also goes for alot of other players I have seen (which is why I am enjoying this thread, I am learning so many new things I did not know ablut many players).

 

[FinalKai]

Hahaha. Glad I could be of assistance. =)

 

[Nakayorz]

I was talking to ryko and the way he described it is that you may be picking a category then finding footage that may (or may not actually) fit the category instead of picking the footage and assigning a category. I'm not a good example of a defensive slow calculating zelda. I am way too overzealous to be honestly.

 

[Darkmusician]

To say that I have no defense in my game would be false. To say that I have amazing reactions would be false as well. It's all reading, mindgames and just knowing the character.

 

[ashes]

Huh... Interesting. Well I guess my whole theory is kinda blown isn't it. I did not realize that I had not read you guys very well, I thought I was a little closer but apparently not. Just goes to show that i need to find some people to play in person to see some of these aspects. It also makes me realize how unhelpful videos can be. obviously they have some good aspects, but many of the reasons I watched videos for I now realize really won't help me in the long run. Oh well. I am moving soon so hopefully there will be people there who can play me.
so I guess that this kinda wraps up this thread. It was good while it lasted.

 

[Darkmusician]

If you ever take a trip to Hawaii. We'll play for sure. Seeing in person is always awesome.

 

[ashes]

I am definetly hoping to visit Hawaii some time in the next couple of years so I will look you up when I do. though unless I improve my game substantially, you will kick my but.

 

[Nakayorz]

Just goes to show that i need to find some people to play in person to see some of these aspects. It also makes me realize how unhelpful videos can be. obviously they have some good aspects, but many of the reasons I watched videos for I now realize really won't help me in the long run.

Curiously, what would these reasons be?

The main advantage about videos as opposed to playing against someone or watching them live is the fact that you can pick and choose what to watch making it useful for gathering knowledge.

For example you can isolate parts of a match and look for mistakes or missed oppurtunities over a time frame of mere seconds. It makes it a little easier to learn proper responses on a situation by situation basis. What someone can absorb from a video does depend on what method they use to watch it to some degree.

Videos have their limitations in helping players grow though. Mainly applying the new knowledge and testing requires a lot of playing people and experimenting with what is comfortable and effective from player to player.

Personally my favorite part about using videos to grow is getting different perspectives on a situation. If I can't identify a useful alternative for a situation I'm struggling with maybe someone else's eyes will see it and I can make note of it.

 

[ashes]

Ya as far a reasons go I really watched video to learn new tricks, spacing ways to beat certain characters and such, but much of those things really depend on specific situations, which some are common enough but many are much more rare. Therefore I will never remember to use that move or what ever at the right time. Basically I like to watch videos as a cheat cheat to getting better. So when I said 'many reasons' I guess it really means that watching videos really can only give me ideas and concepts but with out playing they won't do me any good. (so now that makes me sound thoroughly stupid). I guess I had always hoped that in some way by watching a ton of videos(since i can't actually play anyone) that those moves and styles would stick in my mind fro when i do play and would become some what instinctual. But since everything is situational as I have figured out now, the best way to grow is to learn to adapt and think on the spot while you play(which i can't really do without friends who play brawl).
So i gues i kinda worded that wrong but i was trying to avoind making such a lengthy post.
hope that cleared it up without making me look like a morron. lol

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'm ridiculously agressive unless I'm behind in lives.

 

[GodAtHand]

To say that I have no defense in my game would be false. To say that I have amazing reactions would be false as well. It's all reading, mindgames and just knowing the character.

I am so happy you said this. I was starting to get depressed while watching your videos because of how precise the lightning kicks etc. were. Since I have a hard time using them unless I really bait the opponent into a comfortable position for me to do so. Its nice to know you are human! ^_^

 

[betterthanbonds9]

I learned brawl zelda from DM back when it was all japanese (thanks, btw) so i tend to have a style more like his than others. I wouldn't say that my style (and especially not DMs) has no defense...i just tend to see it as a more inteligent defense: you defend when you have to and seize it back ASAP.

-i guess that's my balance -_-
--why does everyone (other boards) think that we have no offense?

 

[Nakayorz]

--why does everyone (other boards) think that we have no offense?

because a typical zelda hugs din's fire and doesn't know how to approach. You'd be surprised at how ******** many 'zelda mains' play when you just stop moving and avoid the projectiles. It makes everyone that does know how to approach with her want to cry. lol