An Essay on the Community: Approaching a Unique Problem from Both Sides

[Jack Kieser]

WALL OF TEXT WARNING!! This is an essay, which means that there is significant reading that must be done. This is also a first draft; please point out any grammatical or spelling errors.


An Essay on the Community: Approaching a Unique Problem from Both Sides

At first, I wasn't sure how to approach this essay; I knew I wanted to make a social commentary on a group that has been close to me for a while now, the Smash Bros. community as a whole, but I wasn't sure where to start. We have been having a lot of problems as a community and they haven't all been recent, though they all have been persistent and very harmful in the long run. In the end, though, the beginning is always the best place to start, and so I feel it is prudent to establish why our community, one built off of the basic tenants of goodness, has been taking such a sharp decline in recent months (and years, to some extent), and in what manner this has been taking place.

I have not always played Smash competitively. When the original Smash Bros. came out, I was intrigued; I was more of a single-player kind of gamer, and although I had tried my hand at many, many fighters in the past, I had never found one that was ostensibly 'me', a fighter that was able to take itself seriously while reminding itself (and its players) that, at the end of the day, it wasn't afraid to admit that it was a video game. As I'm sure could be inferred by my very presence on these boards, I found such a game in Masahiro Sakurai's little gem of experimentation. I played the original Smash religiously, but I never played it as if it was a serious fighter because the thought never occurred to me; that wasn't what I was looking for, and that was enough for me.

I purchased Melee the day it came out, and myself and three of my closes friends battled until the next morning with barely a pause. Melee took everything I loved about the original Smash and injected it with a little speed and a lot of heart, creating a game that looked the same and played the same, but felt altogether different at its core. We didn't know it at the time, of course, but in a few years Melee would reign as a serious contender for 'Most Balanced Competitive Fighter'. I played Melee almost exclusively for the next two years and nearly burnt myself out on the game. I always wanted more of a challenge and my Falco-wielding friend, Dillon, was always willing to give it to me. He pushed me (still as Link) farther than ever, and I pushed him just as far. This is when I began to turn from 'casual Smash player' to 'serious competitive player'. Living in Mesquite, TX, video games were always a taboo subject (if my friend's fathers ever knew at the time that I played Smash and not football, I would have been labeled 'gay' and I would have never seen them again), so I never even thought about the concept of playing Smash in a serious tournament. Had anyone here seen me at the time, they would have instantly whisked me away to a Smashfest and taught me the ways of the wavedash and the shffl, the world of true tournament Smashing, and I would have loved it. At times, I really wish that had happened, because I didn't get my first taste of tournament Smash until 2006, when I attended the DigiPen Institute of Technology and met some of the most hardcore Smash players I have ever had the opportunity to meet; I have been playing Smash in the tournament style ever since.

This (rather lengthy) introduction serves a distinct and important purpose. I am not what I would call a 'pro' player; I play in the pro style with pro rules and have played against people who may one day become pro players, but I am not skilled enough to one day grace an EVO or MLG tournament bracket. I am, however, a competitive player. I know my roots, though, and I realize and recognize that this wasn't always the case; I used to never consider a '4-stock, 8 minute, no item' match as something I would enjoy, although it is something I love with all my heart now. As someone who regularly reflects on these things, I feel that I am qualified to make a social commentary on our community, a community that I have (inadvertently) been a member of since 2003 even though I didn't play in a tournament or know about SWF at the time, as someone who tries every day to remember that I am a product of both sides of our community.

One of the biggest problems we face today is a growing schism in Smashdom. This schism has been growing for years, but has never really been dealt with, recognized in passing without ever being treated at its source. The two sides involved in this growing conflict have no reason to fight. They have no reason to hate each other. They have no reason to be anything other than brothers. As I'm sure everyone can agree, there has been little brotherhood here as of late. It pains me because to name these 'factions' almost gives legitimacy to their struggle against one another, but it is something that must be done to understand what ails our community and to combat their existence. On one side is a set of Smash alumni, learned in their ways and wise in their knowledge of Smash. On the other is a group of newcomers, eager to join a strong community with fresh ideas and a bright outlook. For some reason, these two groups feel animosity towards each other, and I feel that the reason why is not because either is right or wrong, or one side feels a need to dominate the other, but simply because of a misunderstanding.

Those of us who have been on Smashboards for years now have crafted Smash Bros. into a serious fighter, one held among the ranks of Street Fighter, Tekken, and Marvel v. Capcom as games worthy of respect. They have gone through many trials to do so, and have built a community out of a shared love for a game, a community that has been commended for its patience and camaraderie. These people want to bring others into the fold, to have more people to enjoy their love for Smash with, but at a price: acceptance of their way of play, their standards, the same standards that have evolved from years of tournaments and play. These people hold rigorous competitions of skill because that is what they love, and that love will never change.

The newer members of Smash are bright-eyed and hopeful, ready to use the foundation that previous Smash veterans have established to do new things, whatever that may entail. These people want to push the game to its limits in ways that are broad and all-encompassing, but do not have the benefit of experience that comes with years of tournament play.

Both sides, ultimately, want the same thing: for Smash to become better than it was before. However, they want to take different routes to get there. Veteran players have found a system that works and would prefer to stay with that system rather than make changes that could possibly set them back to square one. Newcomers recognize the older systems, but do not want to risk becoming too narrow-minded, and so they wish to explore as many new avenues as they can in order to find many ways that work for many people.

But neither group sees the other like that.

The veteran players only see a group of young upstarts who want to take their established way of life, crafted and refined by years of play, and replace it with something new and altogether different, something that they view as inferior. Newcomers only see a group of senile people who are so afraid of change that they would rather alienate fellow players than risk their thrones of dominance to be toppled. Neither view is accurate, but both are accepted as truth and fact.

This is our problem... one that can be easily fixed. Our community was built on the concept of camaraderie, of love and acceptance for a fellow player. There is no reason that this cannot be our standard again. As long as both sides recognize each other for what they are, as opposed to what they seem to be, the community will advance. Veteran players only ask that they (and their traditions) are treated with the respect that they rightly deserve and ask that newcomers recognize that there are things that can only be learned with time and experience, lessons that have crafted the Smash community, lessons that we wouldn't be here without. Newcomers only ask that veterans have an open mind, open and accepting. Newcomers want to be treated with respect and as equals as players without having to be worried about being sent away from the community proper to experiment alone, without the approval and help of the main community.

Veterans, don't just look at a newcomer with fresh (or different) ideas and try to shoot them down; encourage them to explore new avenues and ask if you can explore with them. Don't say, 'Hold your own tournament' with the connotation that they should separate themselves from the community in order to do so; say it with the intent of helping them every step of the way and maybe joining in every now and then too, even if it isn't exactly your cup of tea.

Newcomers, recognize veteran players as the people who gave you the very opportunity to explore every possibility of tournament Smash, for without their pioneering SWF wouldn't even exist. When they speak, listen. If you must contest, do it with the respect that they deserve. Ask for their assistance whenever you need it and make sure they know that you want them to be there alongside you in your trials, as well.

To both sides, treat each other with the same camaraderie that this community was once lauded by. Always treat others with the modesty that affords you could be wrong, regardless of experience (in the veteran's case) or ingenuity (in the case of the newcomers). Remember, we all love Smash in all of its forms. We are a community, and no amount of infighting or misunderstandings will ever take that from us. We may play Smash for the skill, for the competition, for the craziness, for the order, for the people, for the characters, for the similarities, for the differences... but at the end of the day, we all play Smash because it's fun, regardless of what that means to us individually.

We are a community; now is the time for us to prove it.

 

[Rash]

Good essay, but it seems too general in some way. There are certainly people who DON'T love all forms of Smash (i.e. Brawl haters). On the other side, there are also newcomers who are labeled "scrubs" because they think they have some kind of word above others, when they don't even know what they're talking about most of the time.

I wish the community could just come together in piece and harmony, but there are too many underlying factors that keep certain forms of player segregation abound.

I definitely like your angle, though.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Good essay, but it seems too general in some way. There are certainly people who DON'T love all forms of Smash (i.e. Brawl haters). On the other side, there are also newcomers who are labeled "scrubs" because they think they have some kind of word above others, when they don't even know what they're talking about most of the time.

I wish the community could just come together in piece and harmony, but there are too many underlying factors that keep certain forms of player segregation abound.

I definitely like your angle, though.

Well, it's kind of supposed to be more generalized. Regardless of the specific reasons why, people on SWF have not been treating each other with respect and understanding. Ok, so you don't like Brawl, but this person does. Is that, in and of itself, a reason to flame? No... but it happens. This guy is talking about why Melee is superior? That's fine, and you can respond... but you don't have to be disrespectful in the process. The great Wil Wheaton's infamous phrase 'Don't be a ****.' is so very appropriate for us.

There's no reason why everyone's views can't co-exist... but we act as though there can only be one way to play. Sure, there can (and is) one standard... but who's to say that there can't be sub-standards? Alternate rulesets and such. There's no reason for everyone to be so hostile all the time, and that is what I'm trying to touch on.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Actually, "Hold your own tournament" is a great thing. If the tournament draws a respectable crowd, then it can actually change something. If you ended up holding item tournaments that drew thousands of people, I'm sure the community would change. Tournaments are what the rules are based on. Tournaments are how you'll change the rules.


How am I supposed to help them? I can help form the rules. That's about it. If it's in my area, I'll show up. Maybe I'll even enter! But, what else is there?

 

[Resident_Smash_Genius]

Less than three to your essay. If only, if only.

 

[DarkShadowRage]

10/10 would read again

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

And, sadly, this will not change a single thing. There will always be two sides to it. No matter how it changes.

 

[Rebel581]

tl;dr

>_> Ironically, if you had NOT included the disclaimer, I would've read it with no thought to how long it was.

 

[Xyro77]

You young kids do not understand. This fight happened(it was a little less extreme) when melee poped up when ssb64 was the meain game. Now that brawl is out, its happeneing again. The 2 cant stand side by side as equals. No game series has done this and smash will be no different. Melee will become what ssb64 is tody. Face it. I only say this becuase the these 2 games will be argued about here.

 

[SK8orDIE]

Good stuff that needs to be said. I may take a stab at editing this, if you care to adapt it to a pure essay format.

http://www.theory.org.uk/david/essaywriting.pdf

 

[Jack Kieser]

Good stuff that needs to be said. I may take a stab at editing this, if you care to adapt it to a pure essay format.

http://www.theory.org.uk/david/essaywriting.pdf

Wow, I'm going to really read that article; it looks really, really interesting. Thanks for posting that link. ^_^

 

[Tofu Beast]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0rF-zZ08Z3Y

 

[Yuna]

Melee is not one of the most balanced competitive fighting games out there. It's not MvC2-level but it's far from GGXXAC-level.

There is no schism. Or rather, the schism is one-sided and perpetuated by said side. The competitive Community has nothing against the Casual community. Contrary to popular belief, we don't care if Random Casual #289 plays with all items on. What does it matter to us? We'd never wander into their midst and tell them they're doing it wrong. However, this doesn't stop them from wandering into our midst and rant on and on about how we're playing the game wrong. Sure, there are who merely suggest we change our ways because "it would be better" or "it would be more fun" (ignoring the counter-argument "Competitive viability should not be a casualty when bringing more 'fun' into the mix") but many outright state that "It takes more skill", "You all suck", "You should be able to adapt if you're so pro", ""You're playing the game wrong!", "Sakurai intended for us to..." and much, much more.

And when we tell the to piss off, the entire Casual community reacts as if we'd insulted them all instead of of just a few idiots.

It's totally fine to have "fresh" ideas and want to change. It's not OK to preach to those who do not wish to listen. Once is OK. Repeatedly is harassment, especially if you're preaching the same inane bovine manure you've personally already spouted despite the fact that a lot of people have already counter-argued all of your arguments (to your face) into perpetuity.

We do not discourage new players from joining the Competitive community. We welcome new players. However, when you join a community, the first thing you do should not be to try to change it to your liking, especially not when everyone else likes it the way it is and dislikes your way.

Heck, the majority of the people preaching for "change" aren't even Competitive Smashers. And a majority of them even admit to never intending to becoming Competitive Smashers either! Yet others say "Well, I might if you change". Why should we change our ways to appease a few who are too lazy to go create their own tournaments and run them the way they want to?

I never start out outright hostile towards people I've never seen before unless they say something outrageously stupid or insult the Competitive community. If they're just misguided or misinformed, I'll gladly enlighten them. If they refuse to see reason despite me and others speaking to them in a civil manner and continue to insult us/spout stupid ****, then I'll turn off the nice.

Jack, stop writing Wall of Texts that are just common sense and that seem like some kind of masked jab at "veteran Smashers". It's like you're blaming us in equal parts despite the fact that the fights are mainly started and perpetuated by the "non-veterans".

We don't tell them to hold their own tournaments to separate them from us. We tell them to do it because we don't want to change, we won't change (no matter how much you try to change us, at least you're eloquent and kinda logical but you're too darn stubborn and sometimes way too illogical ("Change for change's sake... even if it's detrimental!").

We like the way we do things. It works out great for us. We've tried doing it your way. We've considered doing it again. We've studied the games, learned how they work. Your way won't work. Stop trying to change us!

And to the people who refuse to see reason and keep telling us we're wrong and need to change (yes, you, Jack, you've outright said that we need to change), we say: Host your own tournaments.

We won't change. You won't change (apparently). As such, the only solution is for you to go host your own tournaments. Because if you do, you can run them however you want. But stop telling us how to do our jobs when we're doing it them fine.

Ask any other Competitive fighting game community and see how many wouldn't outright laugh in your face if you suggested turning on Items and Final Smashes (after you explained to them exactly how they work) in Competitive play. Items and Final Smashes are not for the Competitive Smash Scene.

If you cannot accept that after all of this time, Jack, then I'll wash my hand on you and stop being civil. You keep saying "we need to change", "we have to change", "change for change's sake" despite not having refuted a single one of my arguments on why Final Smashes are cataclysmically bad for Competitive Smash.

No matter how many Wall of Texts you type up that can easily be summed into 5 sentences, that won't change. We won't change. And if you won't change, then, frankly, I'd rather you hold your own tournaments because at least them we wouldn't have you whining at us here on Smashboards.

As I've already had to say on many occasions (to you): I've got everything on my side. Consensus, facts, the games' programming, anecdotal evidence, history (of competitive Smash and fighting games), insight into how the human mind works, insight into competition. I know that Final Smashes and items are bad for competitive play. Items were experimented with for two years. Items are still experimented with in casuals sometimes when I feel like it. And we always come to the same conclusion:
They are bad for competitive play

Not everything needs to be tested extensively over and over and over again. How long do we have to keep FS:es on in tournaments for you to be happy? Months? Years. If FS:es and items are worthy of being turned on in tournaments, you prove it to us. It's not our job to do it for you. Prove it to us with your ISP-project. If you can do that, then we'll look at it and go "Hey, he was right. Maybe we should try this out.".

If you can't, then you'll finally realize what I've known all along: You're wrong.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Yuna wins this round.

To Jack Kieser: Walls of text do nothing. Get out there and do something yourself.

 

[Jack Kieser]

...and only Yuna would basically take a post designed to try to bring people together and use it to insult. Yuna, you can 'wash your hands of [me]' all you want; you act as though I care about your opinion more than anyone else's. My goal, my aim, is to do whatever I can, in whatever way I can, to make our community a better place. Only someone as shortsighted as you would take that and interpret it as a personal attack on your way of playing.

Whether I have ever posted anything on SWF saying that the standard is wrong or not is irrelevant because I can assure you that was never the meaning behind any of my posts. I've told you that, but because I'm advocating something you disagree with, you feel the need to twist my wordsto try to make it seem like I have some kind of vindictive vendetta against tournament Smashing (something I've been a part of, in some type, form, or fashion, for almost 2 years now). Yes, you've given plenty of logical reasons why items aren't conductive to the current tournament standard.

I've given you plenty of ways we can make a new, complimentary standard that stands alongside the main standard and includes items. Yes, I am flat out ignoring some of the logic, because the logic isn't what interests me; what interests me is that the 'ISP' thread has 5,861 views worth of people who obviously have an interest in item tournaments. If people want it, then I am happy to serve the community to help. All you do is try to tell me why what I'm doing is wrong (trying to make items a part of tournaments in general), all the while thinking that you're such an open person by 'supporting me' and saying 'go make tournaments'.

You're a hypocrite, and no amount of logic is going to change the fact that your words and your actions don't match.

Oh, and flyinfilipino... I have done something. I have hosted testing, research, discussions, and a tournament. It's insulting for you to insinuate that I haven't done anything but speak out of my a**.

So, I wash my hands of you. I'm sick of trying to explain to you that there's room for both sets of people and that there is no reason to treat people in a manner that is so degrading and insulting. I'm doing everything I can to serve my community, and as far as I'm concerned, that's all that matters. So, f**K off and let me do my work.

 

[refugee]

This flame war is very interesting. I am not sure which side I agree with but I think competive play should remain how it is and only make changes when most needed. For example, playing heavy brawl in tournments instead of normal to make comboing more effective.

 

[Yuna]

...and only Yuna would basically take a post designed to try to bring people together and use it to insult. Yuna, you can 'wash your hands of [me]' all you want; you act as though I care about your opinion more than anyone else's. My goal, my aim, is to do whatever I can, in whatever way I can, to make our community a better place. Only someone as shortsighted as you would take that and interpret it as a personal attack on your way of playing.

How do you think you'll go about "unifying" the two opposing sides? The only way to "unify" us is for one side to give up. Either the Competitive side will give up and allow items and Final Smashes (fat chance) or the Itemnites will have to give up and go with the flow if they wish to join the Competitive "side".

Whether I have ever posted anything on SWF saying that the standard is wrong or not is irrelevant because I can assure you that was never the meaning behind any of my posts.

O RLY? What about the one bazillion times you've called me and the Competitive Smash community "close-minded", "too set in their ways", "can't learn new tricks" and others things like that? I could pull up quotes if you wish me to.

And you've openly pretty much flat out said "the current standard is wrong" on several occasions, just not with so many words. It's not my fault if what you really mean to say is only obvious to you.

I've told you that, but because I'm advocating something you disagree with, you feel the need to twist my wordsto try to make it seem like I have some kind of vindictive vendetta against tournament Smashing (something I've been a part of, in some type, form, or fashion, for almost 2 years now). Yes, you've given plenty of logical reasons why items aren't conductive to the current tournament standard.

Then why do you keep trying to introduce them into the general Competitive scene? Why do I see you in every single thread about items and Final Smashes saying we're "too set in our ways" and that the rules "needs to change" and yaddi yaddi yadda?!

How is that not saying that the current standard is wrong and that we're doing it wrong?!

I've given you plenty of ways we can make a new, complimentary standard that stands alongside the main standard and includes items. Yes, I am flat out ignoring some of the logic, because the logic isn't what interests me; what interests me is that the 'ISP' thread has 5,861 views worth of people who obviously have an interest in item tournaments.

Then let them have them.

I've given you one bazillion arguments for why items and Final Smashes can never be allowed in "mainstream" Competitive tournaments because they detract from skill and competitive play. It's not wrong to like them. It's not wrong to host tournaments with them on. But it's wrong to constantly preach to us and tell us that we "need" to change.

If people want it, then I am happy to serve the community to help. All you do is try to tell me why what I'm doing is wrong (trying to make items a part of tournaments in general), all the while thinking that you're such an open person by 'supporting me' and saying 'go make tournaments'.

I've never ever posted a post saying "You should not host item tournaments!". Funnily enough, you have posted at least 10 where you outright say that the current rules "need to change" or that "we're too set in our ways" or something else whose true intention I'm sure is only apparent to you (but in everyone else's eyes, it looks like you're saying that what we're currently doing is wrong).

You're a hypocrite, and no amount of logic is going to change the fact that your words and your actions don't match.

The fact that you have a very loose grasp of the English language does not make me a hypocrite. Because I'll give you 2000 dollars if you can pull up a single quote where I tell someone they're playing the game wrong or that they "need to change" the way they play it. Or something else even remotely like it.

So, I wash my hands of you. I'm sick of trying to explain to you that there's room for both sets of people and that there is no reason to treat people in a manner that is so degrading and insulting. I'm doing everything I can to serve my community, and as far as I'm concerned, that's all that matters. So, f**K off and let me do my work.

There is room for both sets of people... in the world. The problem is that both sets of people want entirely different things. One side wants items and Final Smashes. The other does not.

Solution? Tournaments without them and tournaments with them. Those who wish to play without them can go to the tournaments without them. Those who wish to play with them can go to the tournaments with them. Those who wish to attend both can attend both.

I wish you all the luck in the world with your ISP project. I've been openly encouraging you to do it from even before you thought of it!

I've never once said that players who want items and Final Smashes cannot attend tournaments. Just that they cannot and should not nag us about turning them on. Because we won't, no matter how much they nag because we have very convincing reasons not to (and all they have is "It'd be more fun and varied"). People are free to do whatever they want.

I openly encourage people to host their own tournaments with items on every day. It's not segregation, it's telling them to host their own tournament if they want to be able to dictate the rules so they'll stop nagging us. They're still free to attend "our" tournaments, however. Never once have I said that someone has no place attending "our" tournaments (not even to you). We just won't turn items and Final Smashes on for them no matter how much *****ing and whining we receive from them.

You're the hypocrite. You want both sides to, uhm, "unify" and be at peace with each other. Yet, at least once a week, I see you openly criticizing the current ruleset and saying it's wrong (with variations in how you say it) and that it "needs to change". Meanwhile, all I've ever said is that there's a reason why things are the way they are right now and presented valid arguments (none of which you've ever managed to even dent) for why they'll never change.

All I've ever done is defend "my" way against attacks. You, however, regularly attack the way others play because it's not like the way you play the game. I have never told anyone, not you, not anyone, that they're playing the game wrong.

In this case, you are the pot and kettle.

 

[Sandwich]

TLDR.
This was a really general WoT by Jack. What he's talking about, that's not what's happening at all. He needs to stop posting blindly like this, get in there and don't make just an "essay" but go and HELP us out.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Yuna, I can tell you that you're wrong, that you're purposefully misinterpreting my words to serve your own needs, but it's obvious that you won't listen. You say that I have been saying that we're "too set in our ways" and that the rules "needs to change", but you've been misconstruing what my words have been saying since day one to make it sound like I hate the current tournament standard.

I don't. I play it all the time, and as far as I'm concerned it's the most pure way to determine skill. Of course, the fact that I'm saying this now is meaningless to you, because you'll still try to say that I hate tournament play, but as far as I'm concerned what's more important isn't what you think, but the way you are making this whole debate look to others who maybe haven't been as involved as we are.

"The only way to "unify" us is for one side to give up. Either the Competitive side will give up and allow items and Final Smashes (fat chance) or the Itemnites will have to give up and go with the flow if they wish to join the Competitive "side". Your words, buddy. All I have ever advocated is that this kind of thinking is wrong because it is a self-fulfilling prophesy. The current standard doesn't have to play any different than they already do to allow items in general play; after all, the current standard is 1v1, but that doesn't stop the community from allowing serious 2v2 play, which is different in style and substance. Same concept. The current tournament standard doesn't have to give up a thing to allow sub-standards and alternate rulesets that are designed to take a backseat to the current standard (and certainly not to replace it). But, as far as you are concerned, no. That will never happen because you will never allow that. It's either the current standard on its own or nothing at all; no side standards, no sub-standards, no alternate play. Only the standard, and it can never coexist with anything else.

Your words speak volumes about how 'accepting' you really are.

This is exactly what I speak of when I say that 'we're too set in our ways.' I'm talking about this inability to accept anything new as just as legitimate as what we have now. I have not, nor will I ever, advocate replacing anything. Just complimenting. You can't seem to understand that. You can't say that you are an accepting person one minute and say that there can only be one standard the next; that's shortsighted, and that's what you do on a daily basis.

I never 'criticize the current ruleset and say it's wrong'; I, on many occasions, have tried to tell you that I enjoy it immensely and appreciate it for what it is... but that doesn't mean that I believe that it should exist singularly. I believe that, as a community, the best way for us to grow is to be as varied as possible. There is a difference between having people hold tournaments away from the community, and having multiple standards embraced and supported by the community. There is no reason other than our own ineptitude, that this community cannot embrace and support multiple standards of play. I know you don't understand this. As far as you are concerned, the community can only have one official ruleset. But you don't see the flaw in that; if we agree ahead of time that there can only be one playstyle that is supported and made official by the community, then we are making sure that we cannot branch out together.

I would love to see the SBR come out and make an official set of rules for Brawl standard 1v1 and Brawl items 1v1 to stand alongside the official standard for Melee 1v1. If that happened, we would effectively have 3 standards of play... three standards! Imagine the amount of growth that the community would experience if we, as a community, had three standards of play. But no; according to people like you, there can only be one. It's either items or none. It's either Melee or Brawl. Do whatever you want in your spare time, but as far as SWF is concerned, we'll only support one or the other.

THAT is shortsighted. THAT is demeaning. THAT is intolerant. And THAT is downright foolish. THAT is what you do on a daily basis. You say all you ever do is defend your way, but that's not entirely true. You defend your way while making sure we understand that your way is superior in every facet, and though we can do what we want to do, we will never stand tall as your equals in Smash. That is wrong.

(EDIT @Sandwich: Oh, trust me... I've been doing my part. I speak expressly because I've been acting this whole time.)

 

[Twin Dreams]

Yuna, I can tell you that you're wrong, that you're purposefully misinterpreting my words to serve your own needs, but it's obvious that you won't listen. You say that I have been saying that we're "too set in our ways" and that the rules "needs to change", but you've been misconstruing what my words have been saying since day one to make it sound like I hate the current tournament standard.

Your choosing your own words, and repeatedly, you convey the feeling to change the way we play.

I don't. I play it all the time, and as far as I'm concerned it's the most pure way to determine skill. Of course, the fact that I'm saying this now is meaningless to you, because you'll still try to say that I hate tournament play, but as far as I'm concerned what's more important isn't what you think, but the way you are making this whole debate look to others who maybe haven't been as involved as we are.

If you agree that it's the most pure way, why are you trying to change it? Also, it IS important what Yuna thinks. Yuna is a very respected smasher. My friend once referred to him as the best peach player in the world. (Don't know if that's still true.) You're arguing who has spent a lot of his time over years dedicated to this game. He's already argued many similar topics with people who had more evidence than you! I'm not saying only Yuna's opinion matters. I'm saying that his opinion is a good reflection of how other skilled players feel.

"The only way to "unify" us is for one side to give up. Either the Competitive side will give up and allow items and Final Smashes (fat chance) or the Itemnites will have to give up and go with the flow if they wish to join the Competitive "side". Your words, buddy. All I have ever advocated is that this kind of thinking is wrong because it is a self-fulfilling prophesy. The current standard doesn't have to play any different than they already do to allow items in general play; after all, the current standard is 1v1, but that doesn't stop the community from allowing serious 2v2 play, which is different in style and substance. Same concept. The current tournament standard doesn't have to give up a thing to allow sub-standards and alternate rulesets that are designed to take a backseat to the current standard (and certainly not to replace it). But, as far as you are concerned, no. That will never happen because you will never allow that. It's either the current standard on its own or nothing at all; no side standards, no sub-standards, no alternate play. Only the standard, and it can never coexist with anything else.

You say you want to unify both sides. How is that exactly?

Group A -- "We play how we play. You play how you play."
Group B -- "We play how we play, and you're playing it wrong."


You're assuming that if you combine black and white, you get gray. However, you cannot get gray in this situation. Items are on or they aren't. How are we going to unify if some one has to give in?

Your words speak volumes about how 'accepting' you really are.

Yes. He's telling people to go out and blaze their own trail. If ISP is truly the better way to play, it will emerge as that. If it is just as good as standard, then so it will be! RULES ARE BASED ON TOURNAMENTS

This is exactly what I speak of when I say that 'we're too set in our ways.' I'm talking about this inability to accept anything new as just as legitimate as what we have now. I have not, nor will I ever, advocate replacing anything. Just complimenting. You can't seem to understand that. You can't say that you are an accepting person one minute and say that there can only be one standard the next; that's shortsighted, and that's what you do on a daily basis.

I don't see how allowing opposing views to flourish with in the community as a negative thing. We encourage people to try new things. If they are great things, then it will change the community. If it turns out not so great, so it will be.

I never 'criticize the current ruleset and say it's wrong'; I, on many occasions, have tried to tell you that I enjoy it immensely and appreciate it for what it is... but that doesn't mean that I believe that it should exist singularly. I believe that, as a community, the best way for us to grow is to be as varied as possible. There is a difference between having people hold tournaments away from the community, and having multiple standards embraced and supported by the community. There is no reason other than our own ineptitude, that this community cannot embrace and support multiple standards of play. I know you don't understand this. As far as you are concerned, the community can only have one official ruleset. But you don't see the flaw in that; if we agree ahead of time that there can only be one playstyle that is supported and made official by the community, then we are making sure that we cannot branch out together.

Did you miss the part where Yuna and I both agreed that if Item tournaments were held in our areas we'd at least still show up? How is that not embracing it? You claim that were being divisive, but you haven't given any substance with which you plan on unifying the noobs and pros. Because it can't happen. It's like Binary, 0 or 1. Items or no items.

I would love to see the SBR come out and make an official set of rules for Brawl standard 1v1 and Brawl items 1v1 to stand alongside the official standard for Melee 1v1. If that happened, we would effectively have 3 standards of play... three standards! Imagine the amount of growth that the community would experience if we, as a community, had three standards of play. But no; according to people like you, there can only be one. It's either items or none. It's either Melee or Brawl. Do whatever you want in your spare time, but as far as SWF is concerned, we'll only support one or the other.

I never said Yuna could never be one set of standard rules. I always assumed that if people started holding item tournaments, then the SBR WOULD make standard item lists. They haven't since no one uses items. They won't unless someone HOLDS TOURNAMENTS THAT BECOME SUCCESSFUL.

THAT is shortsighted. THAT is demeaning. THAT is intolerant. And THAT is downright foolish. THAT is what you do on a daily basis. You say all you ever do is defend your way, but that's not entirely true. You defend your way while making sure we understand that your way is superior in every facet, and though we can do what we want to do, we will never stand tall as your equals in Smash. That is wrong.

Once again, there is no way to combine people with items and no items. They either are on or they aren't. We allow people to do anything they want to do.

1. Shortsighted-- Don't really see how. We are allowing you to do whatever you want as long as you allow us the same courtesy to practice our beliefs without judgement. If ISP is what is demanded by the community, more people will start using it. Then it will become the true standard. If not, they no.

2. Demeaning-- It would only be demeaning if we thought that we were better than you. However, I've yet to see any pros claim that we are playing the game a better way than anyone else. (Though, as Yuna pointed out, usually the newcomers are the ones to do this.)

3. Intolerant-- Aren't you being intolerant of our unaccepting of your ideas? We are encouraging you to change the community by holding tournaments. You insult us for doing so.



I'll say once again.


TOURNAMENTS ARE HOW YOU CHANGE THE COMMUNITY.

Hold tournaments. Draw crowds. Post vids. Raise excitement. Get more people involved.

If there were a topic dedicated to item tournaments and trying to get people to join, I certainly wouldn't be posting in it saying, "You're dumb. Don't hold this unless you play with no items." Instead, I'd try to contribute to what I find to be a fair item list. If it were in my area, I'd attend. No one is stopping you from trying to change the community. But, you're doing it wrong. Hold tournaments and PROVE to the community that items demand respect.

 

[Zhamy]

I'm definitely with Yuna and Twin Dreams on this one.

No matter how much rhetoric, speech, and clever text you can come up with, one thing remains clear - you have no results.

I am by no means a professional smasher, but I am a competitive one. And I have indeed attended a tournament or two that used items, if only to see how that would work. The result? It didn't. And as a community, we have reached a consensus that ITEMS DO NOT WORK. We arrived at that WITH RESULTS.

If you are trying to change our minds, then I suggest you go finish your ISP project, host a few tournaments, give out the results, let the community look at it, and THEN we can decide again whether or not items and FSes should be in competition or not.

Scientific method. You have a hypothesis that items can be used successfully in tournament play. So stop arguing and go test your theory. You can talk when you have evidence behind your words.

 

[Tyr_03]

lol leave it to Yuna to heat up a discussion. My problem with new people coming into Brawl on SWF is they tend to be the ones who argue over pointless things, use poor grammar and spelling and misinform the community most often. I don't claim to be an extremly long standing member of the competitive smash community but I do play Melee competitively and have kept up with its metagame. I remember what it was like to play smash casually with items in 10 stock free for alls with my friends in both Smash 64 and Melee and I'm sure most other competitive players remember something akin to this as well. The problem is that many new Brawl players have not experienced what competitive smash is like and think that since Brawl is "a totally new game" that they are just as good as more experienced gamers and feel like their opinions are worth more. From my experience in reading posts and threads around here it is most often newer members with less experience who create problems and veterans who merely react, most often (but not always) with much sounder logic than their opponent. I would rarely consider veterans to be "close minded" but usually are just being more realistic. They know what works and what doesn't work for competitive play because they have more experience. I find that it's the newer players that tend to be close minded instead, often even rejecting established facts (such as tripping randomness and the endless "Tiers don't exist" argument.) Doubtless there have been offenses on both sides of the debate but the divide is mainly perpetuated by newer players.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Twin Dreams, I can respect your opinion; I don't agree with it entirely, but I can see it as a valid one and agree with some parts of it. Yes, tournaments are the way to change the community; I agree wholeheartedly on that. You asked on the first page 'How am I supposed to help them?', and then proceeded to answer your own question, which you have done again here. That is not what I'm debating with anyone. What I am debating is your sentiment that two sides of an argument cannot unify if they don't agree 100%.

Tolerance and acceptance are two different things. I have deeply religious friends; I am not a religious person. We are still close friends and we occasionally have religious debates and discussions. As far as their beliefs are concerned, I am destined to roast in Hellfire for all of eternity; it doesn't get more black and white than that. According to your logic, we can't co-exist, but we do because we tolerate each other's opinions. We may not accept it as truth 100%, but we make do and view each other's beliefs as valid without having to ascribe to them personally.

That rarely happens here. Again, you start off a post with the (mistaken) assumption that I prefer one was of Smashing to another; you have never met me other than on this message board, and I can assure you that you don't know for certain anything about me, just like I don't know for certain anything about you. We infer things from what we read about each other, but we don't know. If I say that I love both styles of Smash equally, what choice do you have but to believe me? I have to believe that you aren't blatantly lying to me in all of your posts, and when there is a misunderstanding, I make myself give you the benefit of the doubt because the chance that I have misinterpreted something is greater than the chance that you are trying to purposefully deceive me. Of course, I'm not really being afforded that same courtesy (you obviously still believe that I want to replace tournament Smash), but I can't blame you for that; it's a difference of principle and ideals, and I respect that.

But, just because I recognize your view that this debate is destined to be black and white and can never have a middle ground as a valid one (and I'm not even 100% certain of that), it doesn't mean that I have to adopt it as my own. The reasons that my philosophy differs from yours are extensive and personal (and probably aren't appropriate for an internet message board), but I have them.

If we start off by saying that these two groups can never exist together and then say that the reason that they can't exist together is because they aren't capable of doing so, we haven't proved anything! All we've done is create a circular argument that gets us nowhere. We have no real proof (outside a few unruly individuals) that these two camps can't exist peacefully... but we act as though that has never been the case, that it has been obvious all along that these two groups will forever hate each other. That's not the case, and you should know that by now. As is evident here, most of the arguments on SWF are the result of simple misunderstandings gone terribly awry; we've just lost the ability to see that we all ultimately want the same thing, for Smash to grow and to all have fun.

And, I have to say that I find it funny when you say that '[you] always assumed that if people started holding item tournaments, then the SBR WOULD make standard item lists. They haven't since no one uses items.' Isn't it possible that this is backwards? Isn't it possible that people don't hold item tournaments because there isn't a standard and because it (as I can attest to) takes so much effort to make a truly balanced item standard? Isn't it possible that more people would hold these tournaments if the hardest part of the job (the creation of the ruleset), the part that not everyone is capable of doing, was already finished?

So, yeah... I have to finish my work completing my proposal for a standard item ruleset; I've wasted too much time here today. I'm probably not going to be visiting this thread again because its obvious that the thread has been hijacked and my intention misconstrued to mean something I never intended it to. Do me a favor and just let it die off; I'll re-write my thoughts when I'm better able to articulate them (though it's doubtful I'll ever try to help the community through writing again).

 

[Wuss]

You have a good idea, if the two sides could come to an agreement, and all of this hatred ended. But it is unrealistic. Not to mention, the fight you are describing, as said by Yuna, is more like an attack from one group. Trying to change tournaments from the outside is futile and a generally stupid idea. In order to change something, you must first be a part of it.

 

[Spellman]

I hate when people blame an entire group for an attack on their beliefs rather then the one ******* that is attacking their beliefs.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Okay, when the effing crator of the game calls it a party game, you start to think "Hmm, maybe this is a party game!" When going into Melee, they just made the best possible game they could, added as many gameplay elements as possible, and took it from there. It turned out good, really, really, really good. With Brawl, they wanted to make a more noob friendly game (the creator admited to this) so 3 years of development time was spent trying to REMOVE things from Melee. Yeah, I know it didn't take 3 years, but Brawl is basically a dumbed down Melee. Not different, dumbed down. Because, when you have less options, somehting in dumbed down. It's like preferring phones that aren't touchtone. They're archaic, why would you want them?

I don't care, I'll still play Melee. If these rookie smashers all swarm Brawl and try to play it competitvely, go ahead. The game is nothing compared to Melee though.

 

[Marie_54]

I see that you are trying to help the community but the essay is redundant in some parts and i bet a lot of people see the word "essay" and chicken out. Shorter arguments are easier to carry out in a forum, i for one read it all but i doubt many people will.

btw I bet many tournament, semi-tournament players started out as casuals too anyways.

I for one, have never been in a tournament so i guess that makes me a casual but i play without Smash Balls, and sometimes low or no items. (Usually for online battles or training i turn them off and for brawl parties on) I understand the banning of items on tournaments as it is a good way to stop spamming or winning by just luck.


In the end this essay turned into a debate,war topic instead of something that would "help" the community...

Even though Yuna is quite the debate heater and insulting
I have to agree with-
"Solution?Tournaments without them and tournaments with them. Those who wish to play without them can go to the tournaments without them. Those who wish to play with them can go to the tournaments with them. Those who wish to attend both can attend both"

It seems fair to both sides but there will always be conflicts, if that were to happen there would be "My tourney is better than yours!" arguments.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Okay, when the effing crator of the game calls it a party game, you start to think "Hmm, maybe this is a party game!" When going into Melee, they just made the best possible game they could, added as many gameplay elements as possible, and took it from there. It turned out good, really, really, really good. With Brawl, they wanted to make a more noob friendly game (the creator admited to this) so 3 years of development time was spent trying to REMOVE things from Melee. Yeah, I know it didn't take 3 years, but Brawl is basically a dumbed down Melee. Not different, dumbed down. Because, when you have less options, somehting in dumbed down. It's like preferring phones that aren't touchtone. They're archaic, why would you want them?

I don't care, I'll still play Melee. If these rookie smashers all swarm Brawl and try to play it competitvely, go ahead. The game is nothing compared to Melee though.

Erm, thank you for bringing your Melee > Brawl rant into this thread.

By the way, could you show me the quote where Sakurai said that Brawl is solely a party game?

And at Jack Kieser: Yuna is still right about one thing, no matter how many personal attacks you two throw back and forth. You're not going to 'unite' the communities by just writing essays. When whatever you're doing achieves great successes, then you can talk about it. Until then, it's no use continually preaching.

 

[AngryJimmy]

...

You guys throw out the word 'logic' way too often - especially you, Yuna.

Logic is, simply put, the correct science of reasoning - or the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.

It is essentially a matter of something being true or false - if you were to say P does not equal Q and within the same context say Q=P that would be a contradiction - thus, rendering that statement false. That is an illogical statement.

If we assume iff P then Q and state if Q then P then that statement would be true. This is a logical statement.

Unless you are involved in a debate which includes assumed predicates which lead to a conclusion - which is done in a mathematical boolean manner - then you really can't call it a sound/logical argument.

You guys are using the word "logic" to describe a mere difference in opinion.

This, of course, doesn't apply to everything you guys have said.

 

[benefluence]

my two cents (correct me if I misrepresent any facts or opinions):

I agree with Yuna that the arguments start with casuals making unfounded claims about smash, whether it's about tiers/balance, items in tournaments, Brawl's lack of competitive complexity, or whatever. However, the conflict and discord emerges when players start flaming each other rather than holding anything resembling reasonable conversation, which both casuals and competitives are subject to.

Yuna is also right in saying that the two sides can only be unified if one side gives up, which is to say, they can only play against each other if one decides to adopt the gameplay standards of the other.

This does not mean that they cannot coexist amicably. However, doing so requires that each respect the other's form of play. On the competitive side, this is a non-issue. Any sane tourney goer will, of course, encourage every player to play however they want, and get the most fun they can out of the game. On the other side, the casual players need to recognize that the competitive standard is how it is for a very good reason, and it's not going to change.

With regard to the tournament scene, I don't think the expansion of tournament rules to include alternative, more casual settings alongside standard competitive play would work at all, simply because there won't be enough people interested to make it viable. No competitive player will be willing to play in an item tournament for money. Such a tournament would have to be for fun only, and the lack of prize incentive would nearly eliminate any likelihood that players would want to compete under such non skill oriented conditions. The addition of item tournaments would probably attract a few players who would otherwise not be interested in a tournament, but not enough to make the format viable.

 

[StripesOrBars]

The Smash community has split because of Sakurai.

Plain and simple.

We now have n00bs(People who found out about smashboards through Nintendo power or the crap brawl strategy guide) and melee guys(awesome dudes).

N00bs come in and act like they own this Smashboards.

If you don't understand than nvm.

 

[Yuna]

Yuna, I can tell you that you're wrong, that you're purposefully misinterpreting my words to serve your own needs, but it's obvious that you won't listen. You say that I have been saying that we're "too set in our ways" and that the rules "needs to change", but you've been misconstruing what my words have been saying since day one to make it sound like I hate the current tournament standard.

As Twin Dreams said, you choose your own words. My grasp of the English language is quite awesome considering the fact that it's only my third language. Sure, I screw up now and then with spoken English because sometimes I'm a scatterbrain but written English? It's like I'm a native speaker!

And the fact that I'm misinterpreting your words constantly is not due to my lacking English skills. It's due to you having problems conveying what you want to say. How else am I supposed to interpret your words when you say that "the rules need to change"?!

It's your fault for being clumsy with words. Not mine for interpreting them the exact same way as any other logical person would.

I don't. I play it all the time, and as far as I'm concerned it's the most pure way to determine skill. Of course, the fact that I'm saying this now is meaningless to you, because you'll still try to say that I hate tournament play, but as far as I'm concerned what's more important isn't what you think, but the way you are making this whole debate look to others who maybe haven't been as involved as we are.

If it's so pure, then why do we need change? Why do we have to change for change's sake? If it's so pure and great, why do I see you advocating items and Final Smashes in almost every single thread ever created on the subject?! Why don't I ever see you criticizing people who claim playing with items and FS:es on is more pure (while insulting Competitive play), yet you often quote those same people and agree with them (on the parts you agree on)?

Why do you keep saying outlandish things about the Competitive community which any logical person would take as you saying that playing with FS:es and items on is better?

Your words, buddy. All I have ever advocated is that this kind of thinking is wrong because it is a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Of course it's my words. Because it's the truth. How the hell are we supposed to unify the two sides? The one is mutually exclusive to the other! The reason why we're separate is because there's one single thing we disagree greatly on.

It's like saying "We should unify the Israeli and the Palestenians"... despite the fact that one sides wants to be acknowledged as a nation while the other categorically refuses to do so. The only way for them to be "unified" would be for either the Palestines to give up their dreams of a free nation or the Israeli finally acknowledging Palestina as a legitimate autocrat nation.

The one is mutually exclusive to the other. Either the Itemnites will conform to "our" standards if they want to go to our tournaments (because, really, we're not going to change) or they will stay away and/or host their own tournaments.

The current standard doesn't have to play any different than they already do to allow items in general play; after all, the current standard is 1v1, but that doesn't stop the community from allowing serious 2v2 play, which is different in style and substance.

Did you just compare Teams to playing with Items and FS:es on? No, really, did you? This is this and that is that. I don't think I need to elaborate on this further.

Same concept. The current tournament standard doesn't have to give up a thing to allow sub-standards and alternate rulesets that are designed to take a backseat to the current standard (and certainly not to replace it). But, as far as you are concerned, no. That will never happen because you will never allow that. It's either the current standard on its own or nothing at all; no side standards, no sub-standards, no alternate play. Only the standard, and it can never coexist with anything else.

What possible "sub-standards" or "alternate ways to play" could you be talking about? Let's see... changing the tournament standard to allow items and Final Smashes (despite claiming not to want to do that), perhaps?

And what possible ways could this be achieved without making FS:es and Items universal? Holding FS- and Item-tournaments as side tournaments? Sorry, that pig won't fly. FS:es are still horrendously broken. And you have yet to manage to refute the broken-, random-, imbalanced- and camp-inducing arguments (in fact, you've conceeded they are random and imbalanced).

They will not "co-exist" (as in "At the same tournaments") with the "normal" tournaments because the Competitive community has recognized that they are bad for Competitive play. We don't want them. No matter how much you whine about it without providing any arguments on why we should allow them. Really, in this entire post, you have yet to provide a single argument on why we should allow items and Final Smashes. As usual, all you're doing is criticize us for being the way we are and saying that change would be good without actually saying why it would be good.

Item- and Final Smash tournaments can "co-exist" with "normal" ones if you mean (which I'm guessing you're not) that as in both kinds existing in the same world. Because at least I would never go to an item/FS tournament and preach that they turn them off. I just wouldn't go or I might show up if I feel like it.

You should employ the same philosophy. Host your own tournaments, dictate your own rules, stay out of the other tournaments if they do not interest you.

Your words speak volumes about how 'accepting' you really are.

I'm accepting of many things. Stupidity is not one of them.

This is exactly what I speak of when I say that 'we're too set in our ways.' I'm talking about this inability to accept anything new as just as legitimate as what we have now. I have not, nor will I ever, advocate replacing anything. Just complimenting. You can't seem to understand that. You can't say that you are an accepting person one minute and say that there can only be one standard the next; that's shortsighted, and that's what you do on a daily basis.

You have. The fact that in your mind you think you haven't baffles me. Either you're delusional or you're clumsier with words than I could ever have imagined.

When did I ever say there could only one standard? There can only be one standard for Competitive 1on1! The only other way would be to create side-tournaments with Items/FS on and we're not interested in that either because of the many problems that would bring.

I never 'criticize the current ruleset and say it's wrong'; I, on many occasions, have tried to tell you that I enjoy it immensely and appreciate it for what it is... but that doesn't mean that I believe that it should exist singularly.

Yes you have. Saying you enjoy it doesn't mean you can't criticize it... especially not if you go out and criticize it.

I believe that, as a community, the best way for us to grow is to be as varied as possible. There is a difference between having people hold tournaments away from the community, and having multiple standards embraced and supported by the community.

We're not embracing it. You keep whining and we keep saying "No, we will not embrace your way of playing! Hold your own tournaments!".

As in: The "mainstream" tournament rulesets will not change. We will not because items and Final Smashes are bad for Competitive play (in our eyes). If you want the community to embrace them, host your own tournaments and popularize them.

If people like them, then the community will embrace them. And maybe, maybe (hah!), the mainstream community will one day change its ruleset if you can prove items/FS:es not completely broken and stupid in Competitive play.

This is what I've always been telling you to do. Yet, you, on the other hand, keeps saying the standard needs to be changed. That mainstream tournaments need to change. You might not have been arguing that the rules be replaced but you want to change (add) to them... despite the fact that we've been telling you for the better part of 4 months now why we won't change, why we don't want to change and more.

Yet you persist. Who's being intolerant here, the one demanding the other change or the one saying "No one's stopping you from doing it yourself"?

There is no reason other than our own ineptitude, that this community cannot embrace and support multiple standards of play. I know you don't understand this. As far as you are concerned, the community can only have one official ruleset. But you don't see the flaw in that; if we agree ahead of time that there can only be one playstyle that is supported and made official by the community, then we are making sure that we cannot branch out together.

There are plenty of reasons, all of which I'm outlined to you on numerous occasions. Items and Final Smashes are random, broken, imbalanced, camp-friendly, will centralize Competitive play around a very small number of characters (3, tops) if you want to win and much, much, much, much, much more.

Your inability to take in these words despite me beating them into your head with a Golden Hammer doesn't not make them any less true!

I see a huge flaw in your ability to be reasoned with.

I would love to see the SBR come out and make an official set of rules for Brawl standard 1v1 and Brawl items 1v1 to stand alongside the official standard for Melee 1v1. If that happened, we would effectively have 3 standards of play... three standards! Imagine the amount of growth that the community would experience if we, as a community, had three standards of play. But no; according to people like you, there can only be one. It's either items or none. It's either Melee or Brawl. Do whatever you want in your spare time, but as far as SWF is concerned, we'll only support one or the other.

Why do we have to do it, though? Why? We've recognized that items cannot be turned on i 1on1 in our eyes. We have not, however, said that others can't set standards for it.

In fact, I've been asking you to do it yourself every single day for the past week or so (and for much longer than that). You want a standard, go set it yourself. Don't expect us to do it for you when we've told you one jillion times why we won't.

THAT is shortsighted. THAT is demeaning. THAT is intolerant. And THAT is downright foolish. THAT is what you do on a daily basis. You say all you ever do is defend your way, but that's not entirely true. You defend your way while making sure we understand that your way is superior in every facet, and though we can do what we want to do, we will never stand tall as your equals in Smash. That is wrong.

Who's being short-sighted, intolerant, follish and everything else here? The one saying "I demand you do my job for me and set the standards despite you have already explored that venue and deemed it unplayable" or the one simply saying "I want a standard, go set it yourself"?

No, really. What magical unicorn-infested planet are you living on where you're right and I'm wrong?

If you agree that it's the most pure way, why are you trying to change it? Also, it IS important what Yuna thinks. Yuna is a very respected smasher. My friend once referred to him as the best peach player in the world. (Don't know if that's still true.) You're arguing who has spent a lot of his time over years dedicated to this game. He's already argued many similar topics with people who had more evidence than you! I'm not saying only Yuna's opinion matters. I'm saying that his opinion is a good reflection of how other skilled players feel.

While I'm quite competent, I would never claim the mantle of Best Peach Player in the World. I'm quite good, however, I'll make that claim. In fact, I'm currently uploading new videos onto the Internets where I do not completely suck :D.

I has been claimed, however, that I'm the best female Smasher who's ever graced the world (and best Peach, obviously). I'll readily accept that mantle.

Yes, tournaments are the way to change the community; I agree wholeheartedly on that.

Then why did you just call me intolerant for telling you to go host your own to change it?

That is not what I'm debating with anyone. What I am debating is your sentiment that two sides of an argument cannot unify if they don't agree 100%.

Tolerate =/= Unite

We don't have to agree with each other to exist amicably side by side. In fact, the Competitive communtiy would care less that there are people out there who play with items on or that tournaments with items on exist.

However, to unite, we have to be able to actually play side by side at tournaments. And the only way for that to happen in this polarizing "war" is for one side to give up.

Tolerance and acceptance are two different things. I have deeply religious friends; I am not a religious person. We are still close friends and we occasionally have religious debates and discussions. As far as their beliefs are concerned, I am destined to roast in Hellfire for all of eternity; it doesn't get more black and white than that. According to your logic, we can't co-exist, but we do because we tolerate each other's opinions. We may not accept it as truth 100%, but we make do and view each other's beliefs as valid without having to ascribe to them personally.

But have you unified over your faiths, though?

That rarely happens here. Again, you start off a post with the (mistaken) assumption that I prefer one was of Smashing to another; you have never met me other than on this message board, and I can assure you that you don't know for certain anything about me, just like I don't know for certain anything about you. We infer things from what we read about each other, but we don't know. If I say that I love both styles of Smash equally, what choice do you have but to believe me? I have to believe that you aren't blatantly lying to me in all of your posts, and when there is a misunderstanding, I make myself give you the benefit of the doubt because the chance that I have misinterpreted something is greater than the chance that you are trying to purposefully deceive me. Of course, I'm not really being afforded that same courtesy (you obviously still believe that I want to replace tournament Smash), but I can't blame you for that; it's a difference of principle and ideals, and I respect that.

We tolarate people who play with items on just fine. Fine me one single post where I or Twin Dreams have told people they're palying Smash wrong.

We made that mistaken assumption because you're constantly posting bovine manure which indicates that that's how you feel. It's not our fault, it's yours.

But, just because I recognize your view that this debate is destined to be black and white and can never have a middle ground as a valid one (and I'm not even 100% certain of that), it doesn't mean that I have to adopt it as my own. The reasons that my philosophy differs from yours are extensive and personal (and probably aren't appropriate for an internet message board), but I have them.

Don't adopt it as your own. But then who are you to demand that we adapt yours as our own? You keep saying the Competitive scene needs to change. Even if you don't want to replace the rules but merely add to them, that would still be demanding change, that we shape the scene to your ideal.

Meanwhile all we're doing is asking you to go out and shape it yourself.

And, I have to say that I find it funny when you say that '[you] always assumed that if people started holding item tournaments, then the SBR WOULD make standard item lists. They haven't since no one uses items.' Isn't it possible that this is backwards? Isn't it possible that people don't hold item tournaments because there isn't a standard and because it (as I can attest to) takes so much effort to make a truly balanced item standard? Isn't it possible that more people would hold these tournaments if the hardest part of the job (the creation of the ruleset), the part that not everyone is capable of doing, was already finished?

Items are in themselves inherently random and broken. I have on many occasions told people why 95% of all items must be turned off because they aren't balanced. This is yet another reason why they cannot be turned on.

So, yeah... I have to finish my work completing my proposal for a standard item ruleset; I've wasted too much time here today. I'm probably not going to be visiting this thread again because its obvious that the thread has been hijacked and my intention misconstrued to mean something I never intended it to. Do me a favor and just let it die off; I'll re-write my thoughts when I'm better able to articulate them (though it's doubtful I'll ever try to help the community through writing again).

Stop blaming us for your linguistic blunders.

I hate when people blame an entire group for an attack on their beliefs rather then the one ******* that is attacking their beliefs.

Where have we done that? I've even invented a new word, Itemnite(s), to differentiate from people who like items and those who demand we change the rules to allow them..[/quote]
Nobody cares what Sakurai says, thinks or does. He published the game, it is now out of his hands. If we determine that the game can be played Competitively, then we will play it Competitively. If we determine that we cannot, then we'll stick with Melee.

What Sakurai thinks is of no consequence to us.

You guys throw out the word 'logic' way too often - especially you, Yuna.

Stuff

Have you read my post? I have never called someone illogical simply for disagreeing with me. I've called them illogical when they've been illogical.

 

[StripesOrBars]

I still don't know if Yuna is a dude or a chic.

Either way I'd ****.

 

[Twin Dreams]

Your inability to take in these words despite me beating them into your head with a Golden Hammer doesn't not make them any less true!

Yuna approves of Golden Hammers.






But more importantly, this goes for all people who differ from mainstream.



The competitive community is what is most popular. Most people view the competitive standard as the best way to play. To change anything, you most convince a portion of the competitive community to view your supposed change favorably.

That's all. You can ask for advice. You can ask for help. You can ask us to attend. Ask us things. We'll give you our honest opinions!

There is a difference between...

"Tournaments should be coin matches. Here are what the rules should be."

and

"I want to start holding coin match tournaments. What are you thoughts on my proposed rules?"




To get away from Item vs. No items, though it's your agenda Jack, this topic is about unification of the "noobs" and "pros." On this specific idea of unification, none is needed. The people experienced with the game generally accept that new people aren't as familiar with it yet. After coming back from a year long break, I still see people posting known information and people saying, "We already know about this, but thanks for trying to help" or something to that affect.

Innovation isn't bigoted in this community. It is encouraged. If the new idea is truly better, then people will eventually come around.

 

[StripesOrBars]

So it's a girl?

 

[Yuna]

So it's a girl?

Does it matter? The important thing is that you'd do me. I could also post pics if I were able to find them.

 

[I.T.P]

btw, Item tournaments have been held and are being held worldwide, it's just obvious to anyone with a bit of experience that it takes much less skill ruins the point of having a tournament.

That's why I liked the Japanese way, they hold "special events" at the same days of their tournaments, and those special events include all Items on Medium and all stages on. the ones I've seen were really fun, why can't more places do that without harming the standard?

 

[StripesOrBars]

Ugh.

I'm so confused.

 

[Twin Dreams]

btw, Item tournaments have been held and are being held worldwide, it's just obvious to anyone with a bit of experience that it takes much less skill ruins the point of having a tournament.

That's why I liked the Japanese way, they hold "special events" at the same days of their tournaments, and those special events include all Items on Medium and all stages on. the ones I've seen were really fun, why can't more places do that without harming the standard?

No one ever suggested that doing that would hurt the current standard.

Edit:

It doesn't take much less skill, just adds randomness that dilutes it.
I'm not sure all japanese tournaments do that.





As for Yuna's gender....

I read one of his posts where he said, "I have been mistaken for a girl on sight" and another where she said, "Did you just refer to me as a he?" Let's just agree that she can change his sex at will. Like those frogs from Jurassic Park.

 

[Yuna]

As for Yuna's gender....

I read one of his posts where he said, "I have been mistaken for a girl on sight" and another where she said, "Did you just refer to me as a he?" Let's just agree that she can change his sex at will. Like those frogs from Jurassic Park.

No, no, no, I'm just so awesome I trascend sex.