An Entire Thread in Defense of Corrin

[iDaire]

What is this? Give me a second. I wasn't detailed enough with what I was saying. I'll get back to you. Currently having difficulties posting.

 

[ForteX]

Opinions

1. He's a billboard for an upcoming game, similar to Our Boy. Why is Roy our boy but Corrin is indefensible?
2. muh swordfighters they take up less than a tenth of the roster... wait... are you calling Bayonetta a swordfighter?

Is that what I'm reading?!
3. We still need Ephraim and Henry, so heck yeah we need more Fire Emblem characters.
4. No one has any right to call a moveset unimpressive until they've used it or had it used against you.
5. I agree, Corrin looks comically awful, but you're right - that's an opinion and I'm sure someone thinks he looks neato. Also "another swordfighter" just stop pls.
6. intro trailer was bad charcter is bad amirite?

Bayonetta wasn't even hype.

I'm calling the police.

 

[Rakath]

Alright so there seems to be some disagreement about how 'slots' should be netted out for 'reps' of a given franchise? The best way to pair this down is 'storytelling representation' and 'mechanical representation.' Now for a lot of characters the latter isn't really a thing. Why isn't it? Well, because their game mechanics won't play well in Smash (LOOKING AT YOU, FALCON). So mostly you're just aiming for 'feels right' and 'storytelling representation.'

For the purposes of this giant wall of text 'storytelling representation' means 'characters that light up your eyes because of your good feelings about their game.' And 'mechanical representation' means 'this character feels and plays like I expect this character to.' Cloud, Bayonetta, and Ryu have huge mechanical representation going on, because they have aspects of their games transplanted into the playstyle (Cloud less than the other two). For a character who has storytelling rep, and not mechanical rep we will all look at Captain Ganondorf and understand. Over time he feels closer, but he still doesn't feel like Ganondorf does in anything from other than Hyrule Warriors (which is really more shaped like playable Ganondorf in Brawl, so...)

So what separates Fire Emblem is that, mostly, it is a bunch of random characters placed to mechanical reps, without the storytelling rep feel that the other franchises have going on. Marth/Lucina (Light Sword), Ike (Heavy Sword), Robin (Tomes), Corrin (Manakete), and Roy (T3H PH1R3). Okay, I jest, but Roy and Lucina are padding that could be called unnecessary... if mechanical representation or FE storytelling representation was why Roy was there.

Roy is there to balance with Lucas as to 'one DLC from Melee' and 'one DLC from Brawl.' And before anyone brings up Mewtwo, Mewtwo is there to be a super special bonus thing to suggest spending all your money on Nintendo games twice. Roy is clearly the top spot for 'character to bring back from Melee' because the other options are Pichu and Young Link. Unless you want a Dr. Dr. Mario. I don't wanna think about how messed up Konami is about characters, so let's forget Snake. Whatever game limitation reasons keep Climbers out hasn't gone away, so bye bye Climbers. That leaves Lucas and Wolf for 'one DLC from Brawl.' Wolf is a third space animal to the sad lonely Ness. Lucas gets the job, even 2 to 2.

That covers Roy being in, now how to cover why Fire Emblem gets so many while other better known, better loved, cuter and more green causing games get less. It's a matter of storytelling. Let's look at who we have in Marioland:
Mario, Mario, Luigi, Peach, Rosalina, Bowser, Bowser Jr. And if you wanna get technical Yoshi and Wario.

And in Zelda:
Link, Link, Zelda, Zelda, Ganondorf.

And in Metroid:
Samus, Samus.

See what I'm saying? Most of Nintendo's franchises don't carry a lot of characters. The ones that do don't carry a lot of mechanical weight. Donkey Kong has a lot of characters but a bunch of them are flat stand-ins for each other, so like Fire Emblem you'd be adding characters for characters sake. And unlike Fire Emblem, there's no mechanical backbone to really separate them. Not to the same degree. While I would love for more villains, tell me how Dixie would be mechanically different from Diddy? To the same degree that Corrin is from Marth?

Now for the franchises that don't have anyone (Shovel Knight, Shantae, etc). The issue here is being third parties brings more trouble on the legal side, not the programming side. So to be worth the trouble, you need to be worth the trouble. Ryu, Cloud, and Bayonetta are all proven worth the trouble. Well, I assume on SF at least, there's no real say how Nintendo came to the idea of Ryu in Smash. But Cloud was the top requested FF character on the ballot, and oh yeah FF7 Remake. And Bayonetta was the hands on winner of the ballot, regardless of how you shape it.

Which leaves Inkling. The issue I have with Inkling is while there's a lot of mechanical room for Inkling... I'm not sure how much work it would be to implement it on a game that's already done. Because the loadstone of Splatoon is inking territory, and I can think of ways for Inking a stage in smash to matter, but I can't think of a way for it to be put into effect on a finished game. Cloud, Ryu, and Bayo's tricks are self-contained. Witch Time hits one target, Ryu doesn't give everyone else SF inputs. Cloud is the only one breaking his limits.

Corrin, meanwhile, hits a missing part of the Fire Emblem mechanical base, because dragons are a standard of the series. And keeps his gameplay gimmick self-contained (which Inkling couldn't do. And putting a run on people buying a Golden Sun game that isn't out anymore does nothing for Nintendo's bottom line.

Look, I forgot to take a jab at Isaac.

 

[GreenMamba]

"Here's a monkey who fights with her goddamn hair" and people are left wondering how she could possibly be different from Diddy Kong. Yeah, okay.

1. He's a billboard for an upcoming game, similar to Our Boy. Why is Roy our boy but Corrin is indefensible?

Roy, originally, wasn't DLC and he was a quick, cheaply made clone who took no real development time. Corrin is not included in the base game and took significant development time and is the only non-third party DLC character. Roy was also the second Fire Emblem character in the game that introduced the franchise, Corrin is the sixth Fire Emblem character in the game that already pandered very hard to Fire Emblem fans.

The situations aren't even a little bit comparable.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

I'm kinda iffy about Corrin, but I'll say this, it could've been worse. If instead of Corrin it were say, another Mario rep, people would've flipped their ****.

Daisy. Nuff said.

 

[Rakath]

"Here's a monkey who fights with her goddamn hair" and people are left wondering how she could possibly be different from Diddy Kong. Yeah, okay.

Mechanically speaking, other than giving her a ridiculous horizontal recovery because of her whirl? No, I don't see a specifically Dixie moveset. Dixie doesn't have a mechanical identity of her own because she has so few games to her name. She wouldn't even space that differently given that they decided to give Diddy expanding arms.

There's one bit of untapped mechanical space in DKland which is animal friends. Which, yes, would give Dixie enough moves to make her a character. But that isn't Dixie's identity, that would be mechanical repping. I am sure someone would whine at that sort of inclusion. And given how low key DK marketing has been lately? Nintendo isn't really racing to put DK into the spotlight. She would have had to be made as a roster fighter and not as a DLC fighter for that to happen. And given how nothing has changed in the DK landscape since 2014? There's no argument for it.

 

[GreenMamba]

I think you're giving your own made up categorical definitions of character representation more credit than they deserve. I remain unswayed, as it mostly sounds like you've a lack of imagination.

Concerning the bottom, yes, it is problematic with the way Nintendo treats the DK franchise, which is also frustrating from the perspective of Smash, as I can't see DK being considered important enough to Nintendo's future by the time another Smash Bros. comes around. Tropical Freeze was too new at the time of SSB4's development for significant attention, but it will be too old and not impactful enough by SSB5's for significant attention. Dixie will fall through the cracks, again. And it only seems like Sakurai's interested in preventing that from happening to Fire Emblem characters.

 

[Kevandre]

Just wanting to throw in that Roy was far from bad in Melee. I was pro-Roy DLC because he was easily my favorite fighter in SSBM and to see him back was awesome. I was never a fan of Marth in these games at all.

 

[Curious Villager]

I feel like Corrin is just going to end up as this game's Lucario and Wolf (heh).

A lot of people complain about his inclusion now since he has the misfortune of being one of the last characters revealed thus "stealing the slot of more deserving characters". But by the time Smash 5 rolls around a lot of people will probably end up hoping for his return since they got a few years to get over his inclusion and see the character based on his own merits.

I can see why Sakurai decided to go for Corrin rather then, say, Inklings or Wolf for promotional reasons. Inklings are practically the face of Splatoon and Wolf is a major recurring character to the Starfox series. No matter how many sequels Splatoon or Starfox get, you can almost be sure that they will return (Other than Starfox Adventures for Wolf I guess) as for Fire Emblem Fates, by the time Smash 5 comes along, newer Fire Emblem games would have more than likely come along too with the latest taking priority then and fates becomming old news.

So with Corrin it was more or less a now or never type of deal and with what he could offer, Sakurai probably decided it was for the best to take his chance now. lest he'd end up like most other Fire Emblem characters as well as the Gen 3 and 5 Pokemon who also had the misfortune of bad timing.....

That's what I think at least....

 

[Total Vista]

I think it's pretty messed up that Corrin was included in the game, on a psychoanalytical level; Sakurai's been stressing the phallic symbolism pretty hard with all these sword-wielding characters. And people wonder why Smash isn't popular with girls.

 

[ThePsychoWolf]

I think it's pretty messed up that Corrin was included in the game, on a psychoanalytical level; Sakurai's been stressing the phallic symbolism pretty hard with all these sword-wielding characters. And people wonder why Smash isn't popular with girls.

I really hope this is a joke post.

 

[ARGHETH]

I really hope this is a joke post.

You thought it was real? The sarcasm was so thick you can cut it with a knife.

 

[ThePsychoWolf]

You thought it was real? The sarcasm was so thick you can cut it with a knife.

You never know on the internet, friend.

 

[ForteX]

I feel like Corrin is just going to end up as this game's Lucario and Wolf (heh).

A lot of people complain about his inclusion now since he has the misfortune of being one of the last characters revealed thus "stealing the slot of more deserving characters". But by the time Smash 5 rolls around a lot of people will probably end up hoping for his return since they got a few years to get over his inclusion and see the character based on his own merits.

I can see why Sakurai decided to go for Corrin rather then, say, Inklings or Wolf for promotional reasons. Inklings are practically the face of Splatoon and Wolf is a major recurring character to the Starfox series. No matter how many sequels Splatoon or Starfox get, you can almost be sure that they will return (Other than Starfox Adventures for Wolf I guess) as for Fire Emblem Fates, by the time Smash 5 comes along, newer Fire Emblem games would have more than likely come along too with the latest taking priority then and fates becomming old news.

So with Corrin it was more or less a now or never type of deal and with what he could offer, Sakurai probably decided it was for the best to take his chance now. lest he'd end up like most other Fire Emblem characters as well as the Gen 3 and 5 Pokemon who also had the misfortune of bad timing.....

That's what I think at least....

This actually makes a lot of sense. Salty Wolf mains are still going to be angry that this random got in instead, but they should be angrier with Falco's continued inclusion to be honest. Few people who complain about a character's inclusion in the first place are going to rationalize it like this, though.

The situations aren't even a little bit comparable.

Except for the part where both characters are more for advertisement than for the love of the character. It doesn't matter if Roy was the second Fire Emblem rep or the 500th: he was added to advertise a yet to be released game.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Daisy. Nuff said.

Accurate. With all the claims of her being an annoying version of Peach and being irrelevant, there's no doubt that she could have caused worse cases of salt. And then there's the trend of "X Random Mario Maker costume is more important than Daisy" jokes.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Actually, there was an anonymous source that claims that Corrin was an addition done by Nintendo for the sole purpose of advertising the new game. They brought along additional staff from Intelligent Systems to work on his/her development while Sakurai and the original Smash team worked on the two of the ballot choices, Cloud and Bayonetta, so Corrin didn't really took off additional development either that "could've been used for another character".
Of course, the source was anonymous and using an alt account in order to protect their identity in case they were violating their NDA, but if this happens to be true then we can't call "Sakurai bias" on this one since Nintendo were the ones calling the shots for Corrin.

 

[Dr. Shades]

Actually, there was an anonymous source that claims that Corrin was an addition done by Nintendo for the sole purpose of advertising the new game. They brought along additional staff from Intelligent Systems to work on his/her development while Sakurai and the original Smash team worked on the two of the ballot choices, Cloud and Bayonetta, so Corrin didn't really took off additional development either that "could've been used for another character".
Of course, the source was anonymous and using an alt account in order to protect their identity in case they were violating their NDA, but if this happens to be true then we can't call "Sakurai bias" on this one since Nintendo were the ones calling the shots for Corrin.

I'm just glad Corrin is not a complete Fire Emblem Template(swordsman, counter, side b combos, ect.) and that his moveset is very unique. If he is an ad for a FE: F western release that would make him a lot like Roy in Melee. Granted, we never really saw Roy's game released in the west, but I think Corrin offers more to the table than some of the previous DLC characters. This is just my opinion, but I'm happy he's in this game. The fact that most of his moves are not in his game shows the creativity behind the development team. Nintendo is going to eat our wallets in February.

 

[Dr. Shades]

1. He's a billboard for an upcoming game, similar to Our Boy. Why is Roy our boy but Corrin is indefensible?
2. muh swordfighters they take up less than a tenth of the roster... wait... are you calling Bayonetta a swordfighter?

Is that what I'm reading?!
3. We still need Ephraim and Henry, so heck yeah we need more Fire Emblem characters.
4. No one has any right to call a moveset unimpressive until they've used it or had it used against you.
5. I agree, Corrin looks comically awful, but you're right - that's an opinion and I'm sure someone thinks he looks neato. Also "another swordfighter" just stop pls.
6. intro trailer was bad charcter is bad amirite?


I'm calling the police.

Corrin is Soar'n. I don't know. We need to come up with a catchphrase though.

 

[GreenMamba]

Except for the part where both characters are more for advertisement than for the love of the character. It doesn't matter if Roy was the second Fire Emblem rep or the 500th: he was added to advertise a yet to be released game.

Yeah, they are the same if you ignore everything that makes them different.

 

[Dr. Shades]

I also think the similarities are intentional. If a few characters have similar playstyles, if makes it much easier to pick up new additions. They all have enough differences to make them unique, but add enough similarities to incorporate veteran players. Unless it's Pit/Dark Pit. Those two are almost exactly the same.

 

[Hockeyfan44]

It really frustrates me seeing all the hate towards Corrin, and Bayonetta to a lesser extent. People really don't fully appreciate all the effort it takes to develop characters for games like Smash. What I have to say is this: if you don't like Corrin or Bayonetta, don't buy them. They're optional DLC, meaning you don't have to buy them if you don't want them. I personally will be buying both, because both Corrin and Bayonetta look incredibly cool moveset wise. Can't wait for their release,

 

[Tino]

It really frustrates me seeing all the hate towards Corrin, and Bayonetta to a lesser extent. People really don't fully appreciate all the effort it takes to develop characters for games like Smash. What I have to say is this: if you don't like Corrin or Bayonetta, don't buy them. They're optional DLC, meaning you don't have to buy them if you don't want them. I personally will be buying both, because both Corrin and Bayonetta look incredibly cool moveset wise. Can't wait for their release,

Perhaps the most reasonable post I've seen here by far. I totally agree right there.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Personally Im fine with Bayonetta and Corrin.

But...

My heart is shattered by no wolf. I honestly think had we gotten wolf (who sakurai even admitted was easy to make) then things wouldnt be so hostile. I really really really really hope Nintendo decides to throw us one last final bone and give us wolf in Feb to even out the number of dlc characters, and simply help the situation.

But people are allowed to feel sad or disappointed about this.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

I long for a future where the logic of character reps would be laughed at. Lets look at these less as representation for a series and more on the fighter as a whole, and then things wouldn't be so ugly. Plus if we think character reps, then you're already having a bad time as far as the first Smash Bros. game because the Mario and Pokemon series had one character more than the others.

I like to think especially with Smash 4's release even before the DLC we realistically had every all-star character to date. I'm happy they have developed such unique playstyles and movesets for these wholly original and shocking characters like Corrin and Bayonetta especially.

In hindsight, though, this game really did an amazing job even sans DLC of bringing back nearly every veteran from previous games, which is an amazing feat that the devs should feel proud of accomplishing.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

The worst thing about Corrin so far are the people who are now shaming people for liking Fire Emblem and calling the series garbage all over the internet

god

chill out

 

[Groombridge]

It's worth remembering that before SSB4, characters could only be added with each new Smash game, in which cuts could also be made. And while we've had two FE characters added by DLC, none have been taken away - they're all here at once. Not like Pokémon, say, wherein Pichu, Ivysaur and Squirtle have all been dropped between Smash games, from the total of nine characters (Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Pichu, Mewtwo, Charizard, Ivysaur, Squirtle, Lucario, Greninja). If they were all in the same title, some folks would undoubtedly be salty about how they don't care about some kids' game and that it's 'over-representation'.

I expected Corrin to be in a forthcoming Smash 5, based solely on the 'pattern' of Fire Emblem characters appearing as Marth + New guy (+ last new guy, in SSB4). So in Smash 5: Marth + Corrin + Robin. Three starters, same as SSB4. But some cuts too.

I can't see Lucina holding her own slot, so maybe she'll be an alt of Marth as originally planned in SSB4 (if present at all). Roy, probably hidden. They went to the trouble of redesigning him for SSB4, so I imagine they'd want to get some use out of that. Ike, DLC if at all - I'd say 50/50. But the whole lot at once? Certainly not from the start.

But franchises and 'representation' aside, how they play is paramount. Corrin is a dragon with a chainsaw: that's new. Corrin adds an element of duality with the human/dragon transformation, which is something missing since Zelda and Sheik were separated. It's a big deal in Fates too, and it's nice that the character alludes to a theme of the games, not just the mechanics. In that way, Corrin promises to add more flavour of his/her home game as well as gameplay - like how Robin brought in magic as well as the durability system. I'm looking forward to trying it out.

So maybe there are a few too many sword characters - but I'd be surprised if they all came back in Smash 5. Or maybe they'll spin off Pokémon vs. Fire Emblem, who knows.

 

[Bowserlick]

I think Sakurai should not have summarized: The next characters are all fan-service.

And I don't think Corrin should have a counter.

Otherwise, he looks like a well-designed character with a couple new tricks.

 

[ARGHETH]

And I don't think Corrin should have a counter.

Sakurai's said that he uses counters to represent the "counterplay" element of FE (the enemy attacks and you react to how they moved), which is probably why every FE character (- Robin, who he apparently doesn't view as "that kind of character") has Counter.

 

[iDaire]

I'm putting in my comments on this thread.
Look people. It is honestly damn near impossible to defend Corrin at this point in time with all of the evidence pointed against him:

1. Who the hell is this guy? Fire Emblem Fates didn't come out in areas outside of Japan, so no one could have possibly voted for this character, let alone even known him. The only people that could have voted for Corrin are people inside of Japan, which is insensitive of Sakurai considering that North America and Europe are giant parts of his game's fanbase and to ignore their requests to bring back fan-favorite characters and substitute them with someone who isn't even out in these areas yet is just completely wrong.
2. Another swordfighter. All three of the characters that were announced in the final video presentation are swordfighters to some degree. We have a lot more people that we could have brought back into the game and that could've been much more hype and worth playing. However, we got another swordfighter. Their playstyles don't deviate that much (with the exception of Robin, who is more of a projectile character than a swordfighter). Why do we have to continue to be subject to this constant streak of swordfighter characters when we could have gotten another playstyle to test out?
3. Another Fire Emblem character. My favorite games are Fire Emblem Awakening and Fire Emblem Sacred Stones, and even I wasn't hype for this character. We didn't need another Fire Emblem character.
4. Moveset isn't that impressive. What do we have here? A bi-directional Roy Up B, bi-directional Lucina Down B, a projectile I don't see myself using ever because it looks easily blocked and punished (and the reward for hitting someone isn't that massive. A small amount of paralyze frames that seem to ware off at the exact same time Corrin's Neutral B wares off isn't really that much of a reward. If the Side-B doesn't go through shield, it's trash. Also, the entire trailer, I never saw his up or down smash.
5. Not visually impressive. This is more opinionated, but it can't be only me that feels that this character is even more boring than Robin who is already in Smash 4. He can turn into a dragon? So does Ganandorf in his final smash. Awesome looking sword? Cloud has one of those too. What distinguishes him from the other swordfighters in this game besides his name and his pseudo-dragon transformations? He doesn't even transform into a full-dragon outside of his counter and final smash.
6. Trailer wasn't impressive in the least. At the very end, it showed him fighting all of the other Fire Emblem characters, which has become a cliché for character reveals in this series at this point.

I'll state this again. I love Fire Emblem, but this was zero hype. Bayonetta wasn't even hype. This is my input.

1. Corrin isn't from the ballot. Sakurai specifically says in the direct that he had been planning to include a character from Fates during development. Bayonetta is the Ballot character, not Corrin.
2. Not really a sword fighter. Yes, she has A sword, but her attacks use either her lance-like transformations or the lance and sword in tandem (Nair, Dsmash) with the exceptions of her 3 tilts, fair, and upair. She is closer to being a lance fighter, not a sword fighter, but to be most accurate she is a dragon who wields a sword as a sidearm.
3. The rep argument is dumb. She has a game coming out so they are promoting it. If there was a new Mario or Pokémon game on the horizon that featured an important new character, there would be a new Mario or Pokémon character. If you can't get hyped for a character who is a dragon with a chainsaw sword because her series already has representation, that's a you problem.
4. You're trying too hard to relate her moves to other characters. Her back air is unique as a recovery move, her neutral b gives her a zoning tool, her sideb looks incredibly deep potential-wise, her fsmash HAS A HITBOX WHILE IT CHARGES, etc. (also we see both the down and up smash in the more detailed presentation after the trailer: up is an upward thrust with 2 lances, one on either side, down thrusts forward with a lance and backwards with Yato)
5. Literally just you being subjective. I could say I find her extremely visually impressive (which I do), and now we have a stalemate because neither of our opinions is worth more than the other's.
6. Again, literally doesn't matter and is all opinion. I thought it did a good job of showing off the character while still leaving some Easter eggs (the fsmash charge hitbox) for trailer analysts, and i thought the scene from fates followed by the running commentary from the royals was quite funny.

Alright. Now that I actually have some time to replay, let me actually make some sense of myself and reply.

1a. I am aware of the fact that Corrin is not from the ballot (well now I am), but that still doesn't change my point. Who the hell is this man? He was still only released in Japan at the time of his announcement into the Smash Universe, so no one could have possibly known him enough to possibly want him. Now, I know Sakurai included Corrin into the roster to build up some enthusiasm for the new game Fire Emblem Fates, but this wasn't the right way to go. When Sakurai released Corrin into the Smash Universe, he was only pleasing a small fraction of the audience with some outliers in the bigger fraction of the audience. He was only appealing towards the fans that are Fire Emblem Fans or people who just like the Fire Emblem characters in general.

I understand that this was his plan from the start, but understand it from the perspective of someone who has played Smash in the past and liked the characters that were removed from the Smash roster or understand it from the perspective of someone who doesn't know what Fire Emblem is: who is this? Why are they here? We could of had Ice Climbers, Pichu, Snake, King K. Rool, Geno, Isaac (Golden Sun), or someone who is an even bigger image like Goku (We reached out to Square Enix and Capcom; no one can tell me Goku is impossible), and yet we added another Fire Emblem character in this game who doesn't even have his own stage? What the hell?

2a. On paying closer attention to the trailer, I actually saw DSmash and USmash. This was my mistake. You have me on this point.

3a. Again, this is the wrong way to promote it. Don't force another Fire Emblem character on us Smash Veterans that just want to have an old playstyle back in the game or someone who is new altogether (Corrin -> Fire Emblem). If you're going to try to build hype for your game, do it by releaing a demo of your game or another trailer emphaizing each game seperately. Currently, all FE Fates has is the E3 release. You could build more hype than this.

4a. I'm looking at the projectile again, and it looks like it's going to be useful in Doubles where a teammate can actually utilize the hitstun that the enemy gains from making contact with the ball. Corrin herself can't utilize this hitstun as her endlag is just too great (or appears to be; I'm not making any quick judgements, but she retracts her arm as soon as the opponent is out of paralysis). While this may be a good zoning tool, it ultimately doesn't look like that good of a projectile to just get the opponent off of you or anything like that.

Her FSpecial has great potential only if you hit it. She jumps and lunges forward with her Lance. If this can be blocked, this move is simply average. It looks like you can react to this, so making it a command grab might not be too much of a big deal.

Her Back Air only moves her slightly forward. Don't make it sound like it's something that it's not. It's just something you can toss out to barely make it back on the ledge as opposed to grabbing the ledge. It's not revolutionary. I'm much more interested in if this move can combo out of any one of her throws.

The range of FSmash comes with a low amount of damage to balance it out (like 13% or something; just a guess). Take into account Shulk's FSmash, which has huge damage and range but at the cost of ending lag. Bowser's FSmash is short ranged, but has a high amount of damage. Meta Knight's FSmash has low ending lag and is multi-hit, but does a low amount of damage and below average knockback. This method of balancing would suggest that Corrin's Fsmash, being high-ranged and only average in lag would come with a low amount of damage. The balancing for smash attacks is as follows from what I've seen:

• Attacks are balanced out by making sure the damage, hitbox, and speed of the move are balanced.
• So logically, if a move is high in damage, it would be either high in lag to make up for it (like Ganandorf), or have a pathetic range (like Bowser).
• If a move has a large hitbox, it would have a high amount of lag to make up for it (like Ike or Cloud).
• If a move is quick, it has a low amount of damage (Like Meta Knight) or a high amount of lag (Like Shulk).
• So by nature, since Corrin's FSmash has high range but the lag doesn't quite make up for that, his damage must be pathetic.

These are only inferences, but they are somewhat accurate. I could sit here and analyze his entire moveset, but I'd make a seperate thread for that. If you'd like me to do that just so we can continue debating his moveset, we can.

5a, 6a. Those are opinionated, so there is no reason to continue debating that.

Bottom line is, Corrin doesn't look that impresive to me. There are plenty of other character we could have added in Sm4sh that the majority of us would have been happy for (yes, I speak for the majority of casuals and competitives alike). To force Corrin on the average player just for the sake of advertising a game that Sakurai didn't even make himself is just selfish. This is an outrage.

 

[MacSmitty]

To force Corrin on the average player just for the sake of advertising a game that Sakurai didn't even make himself is just selfish. This is an outrage.

So if Wolf got in the game to advertise StarFox Zero, that would be an outrage and selfish on his part?

 

[dakotaisgreat]

I'm all for people being happy about Corrins inclusion, if you think he's cool and great and all that go ahead, there is nothing wrong with that.

I just don't like it when people pretend his inclusion was for any other reason than Sakurai's favoritism or because Sakurai felt like it. I'm not too salty about it because I really enjoy Roy, Mewtwo, and Cloud and I already think this game has a fantastic roster. Any real complaints I have about the roster by this point are nitpicks at best, they really have all the major big names and my requests are niche at best at this point.

But just don't lie to yourself, and don't lie to us. Be happy about Corrin, I'm happy to see people get hyped and enjoy the game more, but don't pretend another Fire Emblem swordsman from a game that isn't even out in the west yet was more needed and worthwhile than the tons of other character requests that I'm sure everyone on this site has heard already. And, thanks to the ballet, I know god damn well Sakurai is aware of who people really wanted as well, he just said "**** it, I love Fire Emblem."

And yes I know Roy and Marth were put into Melee before their games were out in the west. Circumstances now and then are quite different and its really obnoxious to see people draw that comparison. Roy was a low effort clone at the time, Marth was the main, central character of his series, one completely unrepresented in smash, and were used to advertise a new, relatively unheard of franchise in the west. In smash 4, Fire Emblem already has a decently strong presence in the West, as well as Marth/Lucina, Ike, Robin, and Roy. The series is more than fairly represented and not in need of advertising.

And one last thing, people saying "Corrin looks so unique and fun" and all that, that means nothing. Whoever they would have put in the game instead of him would of course have their own unique and fun playstyle, that may or may not have appealed to you anyways. For all we know, it may have appealed to more people, I certainly don't have any desire to play Corrin myself, I may not even buy him at all. I can only sit here and wonder what Ray 01's moveset and mechanics might have been in this game now, or K. Rool, or whoever else Sakurai saw from the ballet and said "Nah."

I'm happy for you if you like Corrin, just acknowledge there is no solid need for them being in this game, there was not a large fan outcry for them being in this game, and they are in because of Sakurai's bias. If that works out in your favor, then good for you.

 

[Hinata]

Listen, man. I get where you're coming from with all of your points. I may not agree with them, but I get it. But there's one thing I can't understand.

Another swordfighter. All three of the characters that were announced in the final video presentation are swordfighters to some degree.

Did you seriously just call Bayonetta a swordfighter? Name one move, one move in her entire Smash moveset, that uses a sword.

And don't you dare say "that's not my point, my point is she used swords in her source game".

 

[iDaire]

Listen, man. I get where you're coming from with all of your points. I may not agree with them, but I get it. But there's one thing I can't understand.

Did you seriously just call Bayonetta a swordfighter? Name one move, one move in her entire Smash moveset, that uses a sword.

And don't you dare say "that's not my point, my point is she used swords in her source game".

The words were taken out of my mouth somewhere in that post...

So if Wolf got in the game to advertise StarFox Zero, that would be an outrage and selfish on his part?

If Wolf got into the game at this point in time, he'd be a comeback character like Roy, Mewtwo, and Lucas.
Wolf was never DLC in the last game. He was an included character that came as a result of releasing a new game and for the purpose of roster expansion.

I get what you're trying to do though. You're trying to say that I'm implying any character getting into the game to represent a particular brand of characters would be an outrage and selfish (or something like that anyways). No, it's only specifically Corrin. The fact that Fire Emblem Fates has not come out yet and that the Fire Emblem characters as DLC at this point in time only appeals to a fraction of the players in Smash is the reason why I'm calling this selfish. The outrage part was more of a joke, but in a way, this is upsetting. I'd say the same exact thing if someone like Blaziken or Porky or Ken were announced as DLC characters. If they announced Midna or a Metroid Bounty Hunter as DLC, I wouldn't be able to say this, as those brands of characters have not been introduced into the game yet as DLC and could potentially have a different move set from the characters in their respective brands.

Also, as a side note, I'm calling this selfish much more because there were many more characters that the fanbase wanted that Sakurai could have added into this game that he decided to ignore and replace with Corrin. That's completely selfish.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

I am not saying that this is the right thing to do, but Corrin is sealing the fact that Smash Bros caters mainly to the Japanese audience, or at least, a Japanese point of view.

I mean, not only Fire Emblem is a popular serie there, and Fire Emblem Fates is popular right now, but many many content is like this, and this doesn't concern Smash 4 only.

In Smash 4, what about the Kid Icarus and Mother content (counting Lucas return as a DLC), or assist trophies such as Takamaru, Prince Sablé, and the return of Starfy and Saki Amamiya? How about Advance Wars being simply a tank unit because the game wasn't released in Japan?

Even Rayman's trophies are probably there thanks to the Japanese exclusivity.

But even looking back at Melee, Marth and Roy already are a proof of that japanese point of view, not to mention Marth being considered in Smash 64, and Ness' inclusion, this serie is big in Japan too.

All in all, Corrin's inclusion doesn't surprise me. I think that maybe only the Inklings could have taken his place, as a promotional character (and I'm totally fine with that, considering how cool our water chainsaw dragon is).

 

[Glory Blaze]

Alright. Now that I actually have some time to replay, let me actually make some sense of myself and reply.

1a. I am aware of the fact that Corrin is not from the ballot (well now I am), but that still doesn't change my point. Who the hell is this man? He was still only released in Japan at the time of his announcement into the Smash Universe, so no one could have possibly known him enough to possibly want him. Now, I know Sakurai included Corrin into the roster to build up some enthusiasm for the new game Fire Emblem Fates, but this wasn't the right way to go. When Sakurai released Corrin into the Smash Universe, he was only pleasing a small fraction of the audience with some outliers in the bigger fraction of the audience. He was only appealing towards the fans that are Fire Emblem Fans or people who just like the Fire Emblem characters in general.

I understand that this was his plan from the start, but understand it from the perspective of someone who has played Smash in the past and liked the characters that were removed from the Smash roster or understand it from the perspective of someone who doesn't know what Fire Emblem is: who is this? Why are they here? We could of had Ice Climbers, Pichu, Snake, King K. Rool, Geno, Isaac (Golden Sun), or someone who is an even bigger image like Goku (We reached out to Square Enix and Capcom; no one can tell me Goku is impossible), and yet we added another Fire Emblem character in this game who doesn't even have his own stage? What the hell?

2a. On paying closer attention to the trailer, I actually saw DSmash and USmash. This was my mistake. You have me on this point.

3a. Again, this is the wrong way to promote it. Don't force another Fire Emblem character on us Smash Veterans that just want to have an old playstyle back in the game or someone who is new altogether (Corrin -> Fire Emblem). If you're going to try to build hype for your game, do it by releaing a demo of your game or another trailer emphaizing each game seperately. Currently, all FE Fates has is the E3 release. You could build more hype than this.

4a. I'm looking at the projectile again, and it looks like it's going to be useful in Doubles where a teammate can actually utilize the hitstun that the enemy gains from making contact with the ball. Corrin herself can't utilize this hitstun as her endlag is just too great (or appears to be; I'm not making any quick judgements, but she retracts her arm as soon as the opponent is out of paralysis). While this may be a good zoning tool, it ultimately doesn't look like that good of a projectile to just get the opponent off of you or anything like that.

Her FSpecial has great potential only if you hit it. She jumps and lunges forward with her Lance. If this can be blocked, this move is simply average. It looks like you can react to this, so making it a command grab might not be too much of a big deal.

Her Back Air only moves her slightly forward. Don't make it sound like it's something that it's not. It's just something you can toss out to barely make it back on the ledge as opposed to grabbing the ledge. It's not revolutionary. I'm much more interested in if this move can combo out of any one of her throws.

The range of FSmash comes with a low amount of damage to balance it out (like 13% or something; just a guess). Take into account Shulk's FSmash, which has huge damage and range but at the cost of ending lag. Bowser's FSmash is short ranged, but has a high amount of damage. Meta Knight's FSmash has low ending lag and is multi-hit, but does a low amount of damage and below average knockback. This method of balancing would suggest that Corrin's Fsmash, being high-ranged and only average in lag would come with a low amount of damage. The balancing for smash attacks is as follows from what I've seen:

• Attacks are balanced out by making sure the damage, hitbox, and speed of the move are balanced.
• So logically, if a move is high in damage, it would be either high in lag to make up for it (like Ganandorf), or have a pathetic range (like Bowser).
• If a move has a large hitbox, it would have a high amount of lag to make up for it (like Ike or Cloud).
• If a move is quick, it has a low amount of damage (Like Meta Knight) or a high amount of lag (Like Shulk).
• So by nature, since Corrin's FSmash has high range but the lag doesn't quite make up for that, his damage must be pathetic.

These are only inferences, but they are somewhat accurate. I could sit here and analyze his entire moveset, but I'd make a seperate thread for that. If you'd like me to do that just so we can continue debating his moveset, we can.

5a, 6a. Those are opinionated, so there is no reason to continue debating that.

Bottom line is, Corrin doesn't look that impresive to me. There are plenty of other character we could have added in Sm4sh that the majority of us would have been happy for (yes, I speak for the majority of casuals and competitives alike). To force Corrin on the average player just for the sake of advertising a game that Sakurai didn't even make himself is just selfish. This is an outrage.

1. See, the thing is you're taking it from the perspective of someone who knows what Fire Emblem is and who fully understands that this is an advertising move. Yes, in the SSB4 teen/adult community (the one represented here on Smashboards), there are generally two kinds of people: those who are excited for Corrin (because they either like FE or because they like the idea of a dragon with a chainsaw), and those who feel the spot would have been better used for another character. Both of these camps understand that Corrin was NOT a highly requested character and is, in fact, an advertisement - and some of these people are claiming that Corrin is NOT an effective advertisement for Fates because she alienates people who wanted a different character.

HOWEVER. You need to understand that Sakurai IS NOT ADVERTISING TO YOU. Or to me, or to really anybody on Smashboards. All of us know what Fire Emblem is. Some of us, like myself, have already laid down $85 to preorder the Special Edition of Fates, some of us are planning to pick up maybe one or two of the versions when they release, and some of us are simply not interested in buying a Fire Emblem game. But all of our decisions likely have one thing in common: Corrin's inclusion in Smash DOES NOT effect them. I would have bought Fates even if she hadn't been included. Other people weren't planning on buying Fates and they still won't. There is maybe, MAYBE a very miniscule percentage of people who were planning to buy Fates who will not now because they are SO OFFENDED by Corrin, but there is also a very miniscule percentage of people who were not planning to buy Fates who now will because they enjoy the character's concept after they were exposed to her in Smash.

So in the end, out of the Smashboards community, Corrin will NOT affect Fates sales - everybody who was planning to buy it will still buy it, and everybody who was not will still not buy it. Now that we've gotten that out of the way, let's consider something else: You say that Corrin appeals to a small fraction of fans and she offends a larger fraction of fans, but put together, those fractions (the smashboards community) are still an INCREDIBLY SMALL fraction of fans. What is Super Smash Bros.'s demographic? Everyone ten and up, specifically young boys who want to see their favorite video game characters punch each other. now, imagine your average ten year old boy - not someone like you or me when we were ten (because let's be honest all of us are ubernerds who spend our time discussing video games on the internet), but a ten year old boy who plays maybe Pokémon and Mario Kart and maybe Call of Duty if his parents don't mind the gore. This ten year old boy likely has never heard of Fire Emblem outside the context of Smash, and even then, all he knows is "some of the characters in Smash that I don't like to play as all use swords and have a little sword as their character symbol". This little boy is not likely to go research what series these characters come from if he hasn't already. But now, a new character appears! He doesn't really know anything about this character, all he knows is that they are a DRAGON with a CHAINSAW. Now, be honest with yourself: Do you believe that there is a ten year old boy out there who will NOT be intrigued by a DRAGON WITH A CHAINSAW? This boy will likely google "Corrin" and get the game if the concept interests them, or even just flat out ask his mom "hey can we get the game with the chainsaw dragon?!" without doing any research at all. THIS is the sort of person Sakurai is advertising to, and I think it will be quite effective.

2. Resolved as far as I can see.

3. See 1. Corrin is not for you, she's for the games primary target audience.

4. There already is a Moveset Speculation Thread and if you poked your head in there, you would see a lot of potentially hype stuff. Also, first of all: We know Corrin's FSmash has a "tipper", Sakurai said so. And moves with small sweetspots tend to be quite powerful, so that's quite an assumption for you to make. Second, you failed to acknowledge the WHOLE REASON I mentioned FSmash: It has a hitbox WHILE IT CHARGES. WHILE HER LANCE CHARGES, YATO GOES CHAINSAW MODE AND DAMAGES THE FOE AND HOLDS THEM IN PLACE. This is pretty cool and also 100% unique.

5 and 6: agreed, this is pointless

 

[iDaire]

I think replying anywhere past this point would be restatements of what I said previously. Of course, I'm still leaving some rocks unturned, but I'm agreeing to disagree at this point. I could go on proving why we can't defend Corrin, but on the end, I'm planning to become one of the best Corrin users out there. Plus, I've lost motivation to argue. You win.

 

[SonDeathEater]

I've never played Fire Emblem or was planning to even buy FE Fates, but I knew he was because I actually watched Directs.

I kind of didn't care for him until he proved himself to be unique which basically sold himself as a solid character even if he wasn't my desired choice (Feenie aka Phoenix Wright).

He/She's basically 2nd party like pokemon where there are loads of unique character designs I'm assuming for FE. The FE roster doesn't even surpass Pokemon minusing Lucina who was originally a alt.

Regardless, judging based on the series alone is asinine IMO.It's a factor just not a deciding one to disregard a character

 

[Zantetsugun]

Also, as a side note, I'm calling this selfish much more because there were many more characters that the fanbase wanted that Sakurai could have added into this game that he decided to ignore and replace with Corrin. That's completely selfish.

Well duh. With literally DOZENS of potential candidates for Smash, there is always going to be great potential that gets lost to the wayside. But saying Sakurai "ignored" those characters and "replaced" them with Corrin and is being "selfish" is just plain idiotic.

Saying he "ignored" these characters is literally wrong. Sakurai and his team have ALL of these potential candidates at their fingertips, and you can be damn sure they were considering as many of them as possible for inclusion into Smash. But of course, problems arise, whether it be technical difficulties (such as the problem of Ice Climbers on 3DS) to copyright and "red-tape" issues (most likely characters such as Snake or Banjoo) to difficulties in implementing/balancing certain characters (such as Ridley). But that still probably leaves plenty of candidates for Smash who could potentially have overcome all of those obstacles.

So why Corrin then? Why did Corrin "replace" one of these other potential fighters? Probably for the simple fact that all the necessary conditions just happened to fall perfectly into place. Just being in the "right place at the right time" as they say. Nintendo supposedly pushed for Corrin, most likely due to how well Fates is doing in Japan (cause they have to consider EVERY region) and possibly even to help keep the excitement for Fates worldwide release thriving. Sakurai and his team had already been considering someone from Fates anyway, and they saw Corrin as having great potential for a highly unique fighter, and they've put serious work into doing just that. All the other semantics of the process happened to just fall right into place. So Sakurai didn't "ignore" everyone else, and he didn't "selfishly" choose Corrin because of some stupid made up bias towards Fire Emblem or swordsmen or whatever. Corrin was simply chosen because Sakurai, his team, and Nintendo simply had the most faith in this character to add something truly unique to Smash 4, and that all of the little but crucial details just worked out.

You don't have to agree with their decision, and you don't have to like Corrin, but you do have to live with it. And if you can't see your own selfish hatred and bias towards Corrin, then it's just going to keep eating away at you and leave you bitter towards something that is supposed to be for our enjoyment and entertainment.

 

[Nah]

I think replying anywhere past this point would be restatements of what I said previously. Of course, I'm still leaving some rocks unturned, but I'm agreeing to disagree at this point. I could go on proving why we can't defend Corrin, but on the end, I'm planning to become one of the best Corrin users out there.

I gotta ask though.....if you are so adamant about how Corrin shouldn't be in Smash 4, why are you going to main them?

 

[PK Gaming]

I wonder if Corrin will have a combo throw

It would certainly fit the Fire Emblem pattern (nearly every FE rep has a combo throw) but I suppose that remains to be seen