An Entire Thread in Defense of Corrin

[blackghost]

Except that if you need to lab characters, you'll have to pay extra money for them. I have no intention of playing as Cloud, but I want to find out if his frame data really is as BS as it looks. Oh, but you can't do that if you haven't given Nintendo/Sora more money, apparently a $250 console and a $60 game aren't enough. Not to mention that your TO might be mad at you for not having every character or legal stage. So basically, these "optional" characters are a required purchase for the competitive community, for an already expensive game that most of us already lose another $10 per month/week to when we head to the monthly/weekly.

This is why I felt like all DLC characters and stages should be banned from tournament play. It creates unnecessary pay walls, artificially inflates the performance of the DLC characters, and encourages Nintendo to just crap out any DLC they want because they're guaranteed to have a lot of purchasers.

But of course, that wouldn't happen because the majors took bribe money in return for allowing Nintendo to dictate their ruleset to them. Because the players and the community matter less than how much money can be made off of the players and the community. Remind me again why we're glad that Smash is becoming an esport?

Oh god ialmost died of laughter reading this baseless post.
1. you logically cannot provide a tournment what you dont have.there are no required purchses.
2. you can learn basically everything but matchup psonal experience on this magic website called smashboards.com. frame data, matchup opinions, stage knowledge, you name it its somewhere and if you can find it, ask.
3. smash bros isnt pay to win its ridiculous you are even implying it could be. there are tournment players who do well and dont even own the syst and/or game.
4. the player in this community voted for a dlc character and got thier demands for 3 veterans to return to the game. this community is respected. go ask a capcom player thier feelings on street fighter x tekken if you want to see disrepect.
take your salt and conspiracy to a nother place this isn't even about corrin

 

[Polan]

Except that if you need to lab characters, you'll have to pay extra money for them. I have no intention of playing as Cloud, but I want to find out if his frame data really is as BS as it looks. Oh, but you can't do that if you haven't given Nintendo/Sora more money, apparently a $250 console and a $60 game aren't enough. Not to mention that your TO might be mad at you for not having every character or legal stage. So basically, these "optional" characters are a required purchase for the competitive community, for an already expensive game that most of us already lose another $10 per month/week to when we head to the monthly/weekly.

This is why I felt like all DLC characters and stages should be banned from tournament play. It creates unnecessary pay walls, artificially inflates the performance of the DLC characters, and encourages Nintendo to just crap out any DLC they want because they're guaranteed to have a lot of purchasers.

But of course, that wouldn't happen because the majors took bribe money in return for allowing Nintendo to dictate their ruleset to them. Because the players and the community matter less than how much money can be made off of the players and the community. Remind me again why we're glad that Smash is becoming an esport?

"Let's exclude all DLC character mains because i'm butthurt about a character getting in"

smh this ****ing community. bringing butthurt to a whole new level.

 

[Iceweasel]

Oh god ialmost died of laughter reading this baseless post.
1. you logically cannot provide a tournment what you dont have.there are no required purchses.
2. you can learn basically everything but matchup psonal experience on this magic website called smashboards.com. frame data, matchup opinions, stage knowledge, you name it its somewhere and if you can find it, ask.
3. smash bros isnt pay to win its ridiculous you are even implying it could be. there are tournment players who do well and dont even own the syst and/or game.
4. the player in this community voted for a dlc character and got thier demands for 3 veterans to return to the game. this community is respected. go ask a capcom player thier feelings on street fighter x tekken if you want to see disrepect.
take your salt and conspiracy to a nother place this isn't even about corrin

1. In the strictest possible sense of "required", no, but there is a lot of pressure and as I mentioned, you can't lab DLC characters you haven't paid extra for.
2. Frame data compilations will tell you things like startup lag, hitbox active, IASA, and special properties like armor, I-frames, and meteors. These are important, but if you want to figure out exactly where the hitbox is that's actually really hard to find out. If you want to play a character for an hour or two to see how it does on a few stages, how much of a difference rage makes, or how it feels (so you can better guess your opponent's options) you're SOL unless you pony up some more cash.
3. I didn't state or imply anything of the sort. The closest thing was that I stated that the limited options in learning anti-character strategies made these characters perform better than they would if they weren't locked behind a paywall. And just because one of the Gods could body people at a Smash game he'd never played before that had just been released doesn't mean anything. It's an undeveloped meta and the guy had years of experience being one of the world's best at a very similar game. It would be like giving Fatality **** because Zero can pick up Falcon against him and win. It doesn't mean he's bad, Zero's just stupid good.
4. Sakurai made the decision to include Cloud, a character whose supporters have been mocked for years as the embodiment of cancer in the Super Smash Bros. community. Sakurai chose Cloud over tens if not hundreds of other deserving and viable requests. Granted, all but about twenty or so wouldn't have sold well enough to justify the development costs, but that's still about twenty or so characters that aren't Cloud.

"Let's exclude all DLC character mains because i'm butthurt about a character getting in"

smh this ****ing community. bringing butthurt to a whole new level.

Listen, I know it's fashionable to completely ignore someone's position and make up a strawman that bears almost no resemblance to them at all, but can we try to have a reasonable discourse here? I had this position when Mewtwo was new, and I wanted Mewtwo in the game.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Listen, I know it's fashionable to completely ignore someone's position and make up a strawman that bears almost no resemblance to them at all, but can we try to have a reasonable discourse here? I had this position when Mewtwo was new, and I wanted Mewtwo in the game.

You really don't have a better moral standing in this matter though; you were literally calling people who supported Cloud "cancer" and players who liked Snake "13 year old scrubs". You are trying to demonize those character additions as if they were the worst thing that happened to the series.
If you don't like their inclusion and think they are bad, then that is just your opinion, not a fact, and everyone has their own opinion on the subject. So don't try to sell it as a slap on the face towards fans just because you aren't mature enough to cope with it.

 

[Rakath]

4. Sakurai made the decision to include Cloud, a character whose supporters have been mocked for years as the embodiment of cancer in the Super Smash Bros. community. Sakurai chose Cloud over tens if not hundreds of other deserving and viable requests. Granted, all but about twenty or so wouldn't have sold well enough to justify the development costs, but that's still about twenty or so characters that aren't Cloud.

Most wanted Final Fantasy character. I am sure you believe the internet ends at the edges of this forum? But there are plenty of people that buy, play, and enjoy video games that don't go here. Whatever aspect of the fandom hates the idea of Cloud, Cloud is still loved and wanted enough to have gotten a fairly high vote in the ballot.

Given Squeenix characters are, generally, enjoyed. And Final Fantasy characters are, generally, enjoyed. And FF7 has a high nostalgia factor, it isn't terribly surprising Cloud has a high recognition factor and was wanted by enough people to get the votes to make sure Sakurai put the work into making a deal with Squeenix.

 

[Iceweasel]

Most wanted Final Fantasy character. I am sure you believe the internet ends at the edges of this forum? But there are plenty of people that buy, play, and enjoy video games that don't go here. Whatever aspect of the fandom hates the idea of Cloud, Cloud is still loved and wanted enough to have gotten a fairly high vote in the ballot.

The anti-Cloud movement wasn't limited to Smashboards. It was pretty much everywhere in Brawl's heyday, which gives Sakurai no excuse for not knowing. Surely you were also at other places where gaming is discussed in the 2008-2010 range?

You really don't have a better moral standing in this matter though; you were literally calling people who supported Cloud "cancer" and players who liked Snake "13 year old scrubs". You are trying to demonize those character additions as if they were the worst thing that happened to the series.
If you don't like their inclusion and think they are bad, then that is just your opinion, not a fact, and everyone has their own opinion on the subject. So don't try to sell it as a slap on the face towards fans just because you aren't mature enough to cope with it.

I didn't ask for a reasonable level of discourse, just a reasonable discourse. There's a difference. One of these is being respectful, even when the situation doesn't call for it, and the other is providing sound arguments. I'm not going for moral standing, I'm going for making my point.

I didn't call Snake supporters any such thing. I looked at my old post and I'm curious how you even managed to get that from my argument. I DID say that Snake was a pointless addition nobody (well, Kojima and his son, that's two) asked for.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

More than an "anti-Cloud" movement, I think that there simply was mockery toward those who wanted Cloud. During Brawl's era, it was something that looked impossible.

But if there's demand, AND fits Sakurai's Criteria (because no, Goku won't be in Smash), is something impossible automatically stupid?

I said that already, but Final Fantasy definitely have all the merits to deserve a spot in Smash. And Cloud is the poster boy of FF.

 

[Iceweasel]

More than an "anti-Cloud" movement, I think that there simply was mockery toward those who wanted Cloud. During Brawl's era, it was something that looked impossible.

But if there's demand, AND fits Sakurai's Criteria (because no, Goku won't be in Smash), is something impossible automatically stupid?

I said that already, but Final Fantasy definitely have all the merits to deserve a spot in Smash. And Cloud is the poster boy of FF.

Even if it was possible, it was a bad idea. FF7 is the first FF to NOT be on a Nintendo system and almost every release afterwards has been on PS/Xbox and sometimes PC, but not Nintendo. FF7 is one of the major reasons cited for Sony's dominance in the 90s, a position Nintendo is struggling to get back (granted, the reason these days is mostly due to bad decisions). Given Smash's tagline, I think this is an important point against Cloud. As others have pointed out, Chrono Trigger is almost as well-regarded as FF and fits the Smash theme rather than going directly against it.

As much as I love Brawl and Sm4sh, character choices really jumped the shark here. It started with Snake, then went to Pac-Man, Little Mac, and now the ultimate middle finger, Cloud.

Why are we still talking about Cloud? I was just using him as an example as for why DLC characters shouldn't be legal. This is a Kamui hate thread, not a FF hate thread.

 

[MacSmitty]

As much as I love Brawl and Sm4sh, character choices really jumped the shark here. It started with Snake, then went to Pac-Man, Little Mac, and now the ultimate middle finger, Cloud.

What's wrong with Pac-Man and Little Mac? Going by your argument above, those two are reasonable compared to Snake and Cloud.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Again, what matters is not the character and / or the game only, but the whole serie. Final Fantasy is not an odd serie to add in Smash. In fact, there's still lot of guest series that I can find more deserving than some Nintendo characters, including those that I want.
And I don't see what's wrong with Little Mac, a Nintendo character...

Anyway. Corrin. I said that already, but I don't see what's wrong with getting a 4th new moveset from FE. Sure, there's also Lucina, a bonus, and Roy, a Melee fanservice, but the representation is fine.

 

[Iceweasel]

Again, what matters is not the character and / or the game only, but the whole serie. Final Fantasy is not an odd serie to add in Smash. In fact, there's still lot of guest series that I can find more deserving than some Nintendo characters, including those that I want.
And I don't see what's wrong with Little Mac, a Nintendo character...

Anyway. Corrin. I said that already, but I don't see what's wrong with getting a 4th new moveset from FE. Sure, there's also Lucina, a bonus, and Roy, a Melee fanservice, but the representation is fine.

Punch-Out is an arcade game that got ported to NES. Calling Punch-Out a Nintendo game is like calling 1943 a Nintendo game.

I kinda like FE, but 6 characters is way too much. Marth, Roy, and Robin are fine. Actually, I'd prefer Robin been cut so his gimmick could go to the Robin from Golden Sun, but I've basically given up at this point. Lucina is iffy, but because Marth is so trash in this game I give her a pass for being a somewhat viable character. Ike is a questionable veteran. He was the new Lord (shut up) at the time, so it makes sense for Brawl, but given that Shulk is basically Ike with new specials he seems redundant. Now we have a sixth FE character. Until Awakening, FE has never sold well. No, not even in Japan. Yet we have 6 characters from the series. For comparison, Pokemon has 6 playable reps. There are over 700 Pokemon. Even if we assume that only about 1/7 of them are good fighter choices due to things like difficulty in translating to Smash (like small, large, or floating Pokemon) or being from the same evolutionary line (it wouldn't make sense to have Bulbasaur and Venusaur), that still leaves a ridiculous 100 possible fighters to choose from.

Then there's the issue of who has to be cut. A lot of people don't want to admit this, but there is such a thing as "slots" and a character can, in fact, waste one. There is only so much dev time available, so time spent making one character is time spent not making a different character. Kamui clearly has a lot of unique traits to him, I don't think anybody is denying this. This means that a lot of dev time was put into making him instead of a different character. In fact, he looks like one of the more time-intensive new characters, based on his animations and his new sticking mechanic. Now go watch the Smash Direct again and tell me if it's missing anything. Like... Bayonetta's aerials? Look again, all I saw was her fair and something that looks like her nair. I would guess that if you had cut Kamui and maybe one of the less time-intensive other characters (like Lucas or Roy, as much as I love Our Boy) we would have gotten 2 new, unique characters for the same dev time.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Punch-Out is an arcade game that got ported to NES. Calling Punch-Out a Nintendo game is like calling 1943 a Nintendo game.

... You realize that Nintendo made arcade machines, right? That Punch Out have several games, like an SNES game and a Wii game, right? That Miyamoto himself designed the First Little Mac, the wireframe version?

I kinda like FE, but 6 characters is way too much. Marth, Roy, and Robin are fine. Actually, I'd prefer Robin been cut so his gimmick could go to the Robin from Golden Sun, but I've basically given up at this point. Lucina is iffy, but because Marth is so trash in this game I give her a pass for being a somewhat viable character. Ike is a questionable veteran. He was the new Lord (shut up) at the time, so it makes sense for Brawl, but given that Shulk is basically Ike with new specials he seems redundant. Now we have a sixth FE character. Until Awakening, FE has never sold well. No, not even in Japan. Yet we have 6 characters from the series. For comparison, Pokemon has 6 playable reps. There are over 700 Pokemon. Even if we assume that only about 1/7 of them are good fighter choices due to things like difficulty in translating to Smash (like small, large, or floating Pokemon) or being from the same evolutionary line (it wouldn't make sense to have Bulbasaur and Venusaur), that still leaves a ridiculous 100 possible fighters to choose from.

But does Fire Emblem have an "emblem ball"? Serie representation doesn't stop at the CSS. For example, many people says "but Zelda didn't got anything!". These seems to forget that the series got 3 new assist trophies, and they are meaningful characters, many items, and many stages too, 7 stages on 3DS and WiiU, compared to 3 stages accross all Smash games for FE. Sure, Zelda still have many past stages, but we can't forget Temple, right?

On Zelda's case, there's also the matter of protagonists: all that is important is already there: Link, Zelda and Ganondorf are all that we need, and everything is minor, compared to them.

Both Zelda, Fire Emblem and Pokemon are 3 different cases: the first one revolves around 3 characters. Fire Emblem have different main protagonists in almost each games. Finally, Pokemon is actually lacking it's protagonist: the trainer. And the pokémons, while some of them are popular, are "only monsters". Some of them have specials things to them (Charizard's mega evolutions, Mewtwo is a legendary, Lucario often have a special role in the games), yet, they aren't the heroes of the main games.

That's why FE have a more "extensible" cast of potential smash fighters to me: whatever happens, as long as there's Fire Emblem games, there will be protagonists.

Also, and this is a personal point of view, but "I don't count Lucina and Roy", and therefore, there's "only 4 FE characters". At least, 4 pure original movesets. Ok, it's obvious because Lucina is a bonus, intended to be a costume at first (and we usually don't count the Koopalings or Alph when it comes to serie representation). Roy, it's only my own interpretation, but he came back because of his Melee's popularity. Like Lucas, his initial cut means a lot to me.

Those two cases are different from, let's say, Ganondorf and Toon Link. Both are semi-clones, who stay that way to not alienate the fans of their movesets (and I personally enjoy a lot Captain Ganon), both both came back in the base game, and weren't meant as a costume.

... And wait, did you really compared Ike and Shulk and said they are redundant?

Then there's the issue of who has to be cut. A lot of people don't want to admit this, but there is such a thing as "slots" and a character can, in fact, waste one. There is only so much dev time available, so time spent making one character is time spent not making a different character. Kamui clearly has a lot of unique traits to him, I don't think anybody is denying this. This means that a lot of dev time was put into making him instead of a different character. In fact, he looks like one of the more time-intensive new characters, based on his animations and his new sticking mechanic. Now go watch the Smash Direct again and tell me if it's missing anything. Like... Bayonetta's aerials? Look again, all I saw was her fair and something that looks like her nair. I would guess that if you had cut Kamui and maybe one of the less time-intensive other characters (like Lucas or Roy, as much as I love Our Boy) we would have gotten 2 new, unique characters for the same dev time.

Every moves are shown during Bayonetta's trailer, except for some throws. http://smashboards.com/threads/bayonettas-moves-gifs.426077/

And I doubt that cutting Corrin in favor of other character would have granted more characters. And if it means getting less interesting and unique characters, I definitely pass.

Also, "wasting a slot" is almost always a matter of personal taste.

 

[SuFiRo]

Punch-Out is an arcade game that got ported to NES. Calling Punch-Out a Nintendo game is like calling 1943 a Nintendo game.

Punch-Out was an arcade game made by Nintendo. Nintendo didn't start making games with the NES, they had several huge arcade hits.

 

[ARGHETH]

Punch-Out was an arcade game made by Nintendo. Nintendo didn't start making games with the NES, they had several huge arcade hits.

Like the original Donkey Kong.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I didn't ask for a reasonable level of discourse, just a reasonable discourse. There's a difference. One of these is being respectful, even when the situation doesn't call for it, and the other is providing sound arguments. I'm not going for moral standing, I'm going for making my point.

So you decided to ditch both respect and reasoning as well then. Most of your posting so far has been gradually devolving into spiraling madness with no rhyme or reason to it except because you say so.

And here is your post regarding Snake:

Snake was pretty stupid, but there was no real push from players to get Snake in Smash Bros., nor were the people (all two of them) who wanted Snake in Smash Bros. ever considered to be a bunch of raving mad scrubby noob nostalgia-blind 13yo fanboys. Cloud's inclusion feels like a slap in the face to every fan of Smash, competitive or casual.

Why are we still talking about Cloud? I was just using him as an example as for why DLC characters shouldn't be legal. This is a Kamui hate thread, not a FF hate thread.

Actually, this is a Corrin defense thread.

Punch-Out is an arcade game that got ported to NES. Calling Punch-Out a Nintendo game is like calling 1943 a Nintendo game.

...Which was made by Nintendo, therefore a Nintendo game. The original DK also started on arcade which is, you know, another Nintendo game. You really don't seem to understand what jumping the shark means, do you?

I kinda like FE, but 6 characters is way too much. Marth, Roy, and Robin are fine. Actually, I'd prefer Robin been cut so his gimmick could go to the Robin from Golden Sun, but I've basically given up at this point. Lucina is iffy, but because Marth is so trash in this game I give her a pass for being a somewhat viable character. Ike is a questionable veteran. He was the new Lord (shut up) at the time, so it makes sense for Brawl, but given that Shulk is basically Ike with new specials he seems redundant. Now we have a sixth FE character. Until Awakening, FE has never sold well. No, not even in Japan. Yet we have 6 characters from the series. For comparison, Pokemon has 6 playable reps. There are over 700 Pokemon. Even if we assume that only about 1/7 of them are good fighter choices due to things like difficulty in translating to Smash (like small, large, or floating Pokemon) or being from the same evolutionary line (it wouldn't make sense to have Bulbasaur and Venusaur), that still leaves a ridiculous 100 possible fighters to choose from.

Remember that time when Isaac used books to shoot magic? No? That never happened?
I agree that there are too many FE characters but cutting Robin over petty reasons isn't a viable solution; he was breath of fresh air differing from the typical FE archetype.

Shulk is basically Ike with new specials he seems redundant.

...Said someone who has never used Ike nor Shulk, apparently. If you seriously think this, you are sadly very misguided.

Then there's the issue of who has to be cut. A lot of people don't want to admit this, but there is such a thing as "slots" and a character can, in fact, waste one. There is only so much dev time available, so time spent making one character is time spent not making a different character. Kamui clearly has a lot of unique traits to him, I don't think anybody is denying this. This means that a lot of dev time was put into making him instead of a different character. In fact, he looks like one of the more time-intensive new characters, based on his animations and his new sticking mechanic. Now go watch the Smash Direct again and tell me if it's missing anything. Like... Bayonetta's aerials? Look again, all I saw was her fair and something that looks like her nair. I would guess that if you had cut Kamui and maybe one of the less time-intensive other characters (like Lucas or Roy, as much as I love Our Boy) we would have gotten 2 new, unique characters for the same dev time.

I can't believe that there are still people who are ignorant enough to keep using the slots myth. From a development standpoint, there is no set amount of slots to be decided to include in the final game since who they want to include in the roster is decided from the beginning. During the game's cycle, the devs focus on implementing characters simultaneously, a task that is distributed amongst the team to make sure they are able to keep up with each fighter's implementation. The absence of a certain character wouldn't have meant that its development would magically transfer to a brand new one.
This is even truer regarding the DLC characters, since the devs despite being a smaller team doesn't have to focus on other aspects of the game anymore. The addition of Cloud, Corrin and Bayonetta in the last batch was most likely discussed before hand, so cutting Corrin and/or Lucas and Roy wouldn't have meant that we would have gotten two brand newcomers in their place as their inclusions were already decided and no one else was chosen. Using circular logic like that just shows your inability to cope with character additions that you don't agree on, which as mentioned before, is a matter of opinion and not fact.

At this point, people on this thread are only taking you seriously to try to be polite but it keeps getting harder with every ignorant post you make and every half-baked argument you bring to the table.

 

[Rakath]

I'm amused by Iceweasel , they just successfully argued by their logic that Mario isn't a Nintendo character and has no place in Smash.

(Mario was originally known as Jump Man in the original Donkey Kong Arcade game, if Nintendo created arcade games are not Nintendo games (and spin-offs for the home console do not undo the damage starting in an arcade game does, ala Mac), then Mario has no business being in Smash. Note that this logic does not apply to Luigi or Doc. But Mario himself alone. Even DK gets a pass because this DK isn't the same as Donkey "Cranky" Kong who was the arcade cabinet monkey).

The only character who, if you went back in time and prevented the work on, would lead to better rounded characters is Ice Climbers. Because they put a lot of work into trying to implement the climbers on the 3DS and failed. Which means resources wasted on a dead end concept. If they had properly used their crystal ball to see this failing, that time could have been implemented to make either less clone-like clones or maybe a new roster member.

If you assume Nintendo has an all seeing eye aware that Climbers were doomed for failure.

 

[AnonymousMoon]

Well Corrin did take development time that could've been used for at minimum, one character. Right now, I'm sure a good chunk of people would've preferred Wolf over Corrin--I would've preferred a lot of things over Corrin including characters I didn't much care for.

However, there is the possibility of enjoying Corrin despite his controversial choice.

I wanted my dad to get me chocolate ice cream--he got me vanilla. It's not what I wanted, but I'll still take it.

 

[LordShade67]

snip

This. I wanted Shovel Knight in the game, and you don't see me throwing a tantrum over it.

 

[AnonymousMoon]

This. I wanted Shovel Knight in the game, and you don't see me throwing a tantrum over it.

Why is "snip" the only word in the quote?XD

 

[LordShade67]

To make quoting faster.

 

[Friendly_Fire]

I think the funniest thing is that some people forget that Nintendo is a Japanese company. Of course they would include Corrin to boost sales, it makes sense from a business standpoint.

 

[GreenMamba]

I think the funniest thing is that some people forget that Nintendo is a Japanese company. Of course they would include Corrin to boost sales, it makes sense from a business standpoint.

I'm pretty sure Corrin was included for the West, not Japan. One of the things Nintendo loves to bring up about Fire Emblem in Smash is that Marth and Roy in Melee jumpstarted interest in the series in the west that led to it getting localized. One of the key features to Corrin's inclusion that Sakurai has mentioned is that they will be released around the same time as Fates is released in America. I think Corrin was an artificial attempt at inducing a Marth/Roy in Melee style of situation and I don't think it was particularly well thought out.

 

[blackghost]

Corrin is here to progress fire emblem as a series forward and while i will admit its weird it gets a more obvious push than other series (i.e. Metriod). But i don't really care he's new. he's interesting, and he's more than likely good. Now i'm not going to main him (bayonetta is bae) but how people can love roy and hate corrin is ridiculous even looking at this thread. but this hate will all vanish if he comes out and is good (like wolf in brawl)

 

[ARGHETH]

it gets a more obvious push than other series (i.e. Metriod)

I'm pretty sure it got a more obvious push because it's one of the few games that are coming out around this time. Metroid hasn't had a main series since Other M, and since the new Zelda and Star Fox got pushed to 2016, Fates is one of the few games that fits the time.

 

[AnonymousMoon]

Corrin is here to progress fire emblem as a series forward and while i will admit its weird it gets a more obvious push than other series (i.e. Metriod). But i don't really care he's new. he's interesting, and he's more than likely good. Now i'm not going to main him (bayonetta is bae) but how people can love roy and hate corrin is ridiculous even looking at this thread. but this hate will all vanish if he comes out and is good (like wolf in brawl)

Roy was excusable because at that point, he was a Smash character and a returning veteran.
I'll give Corrin a try and he'll probably be fun to use and it'll probably even balance out the hate--but I will say his inclusion was hugely based on marketing as I don't believe he was really wanted by the community and he wasn't as obvious (in a marketing way) because then you have the Inklings.

In the end, it's a really bad mix. We have the fact that Sakurai was interested in Fire Emblem inclusion since the original 64 version (according to SourceGaming), we have the fact that he was from a game waiting for release (Crossing off Star Fox Zero for Wolf), in a way, he is a "popular trend at the time" (crossing off Splatoon majorly), he is from a franchise that many people deem have enough reps as it is (crossing off smaller repped series), and he is from a series which already had a DLC character represented (crossing off, well, everything).

I'm not saying Corrin will be an awful character to play as, I just feel it would've been better received if it was instead someone who everyone had on their minds. (Not exactly wanted or didn't want--but characters widely thought of and spread about--Wolf, Snake, Isaac, Inklings, Paper Mario, King K Rool, Bandana Dee, Skull Kid, Krystal, Ridely (no), Banjo-Kazooie)

 

[SuFiRo]

I feel like most of the hate for Corrin stems from her being unlucky enough to be one of the last characters announced.
The last Smash presentation was many character's last chance to be in the game. If say, Corrin and Roy switched release dates, there would be a much larger hate for Roy than there is currently. In fact, there would be much more, because he is not only another DREADED Fire Emblem character, but he's also a clone, more or less.
In fact, you can use the "______ stole a spot that could've been _____'s!" argument against any character on the entire roster. Believe it or not, Corrin does not take up any more spots than any other other character. It's just that she's one of the last ones announced, and people realize that we aren't getting anything more after her inclusion, and they're just disappointed that the character they wanted didn't make it in.
Switch Corrin's release with ANY other DLC character and I guarantee whatever character is announced last would get hate.
"So why aren't people hating on Bayonetta as much as Corrin then? She was one of the last characters announced too!"
Well, I believe it has something to do with Corrin being a much easier target. While Bayonetta at least brings some fresh and new things to the table, Corrin has many attributes that people are tired of, or think we already have with another character. Oh, she uses a sword, and she looks like she popped right out of an anime. ANOTHER Fire Emblem character, counter included. Yes, there are things that I understand why people complain about (heck, I am a huge Fire Emblem fan, and even I agree 6 characters is pushing the limit), but the point of this post is that I feel like it has a lot to do with the timing of her announcement.
I'm not gunna go into detail of the problems the people have with the character itself, while they do deserve to be talked about. My point in making this post was to talk about the "______ stole a spot that could've been _____'s!" argument. The problems people have with the character itself are a whole other post altogether.
Of course, this is all my opinion, and I welcome anyone that has something that proves my theory wrong to do so.

 

[Rakath]

Roy was excusable because at that point, he was a Smash character and a returning veteran.
I'll give Corrin a try and he'll probably be fun to use and it'll probably even balance out the hate--but I will say his inclusion was hugely based on marketing as I don't believe he was really wanted by the community and he wasn't as obvious (in a marketing way) because then you have the Inklings.

In the end, it's a really bad mix. We have the fact that Sakurai was interested in Fire Emblem inclusion since the original 64 version (according to SourceGaming), we have the fact that he was from a game waiting for release (Crossing off Star Fox Zero for Wolf), in a way, he is a "popular trend at the time" (crossing off Splatoon majorly), he is from a franchise that many people deem have enough reps as it is (crossing off smaller repped series), and he is from a series which already had a DLC character represented (crossing off, well, everything).

I'm not saying Corrin will be an awful character to play as, I just feel it would've been better received if it was instead someone who everyone had on their minds. (Not exactly wanted or didn't want--but characters widely thought of and spread about--Wolf, Snake, Isaac, Inklings, Paper Mario, King K Rool, Bandana Dee, Skull Kid, Krystal, Ridely (no), Banjo-Kazooie)

Ignoring the two third parties (which are both, probably, viper nests of problems to apply) and Inklings, the rest of your character offerings aren't exactly topically relevant. Krystal seems to be mostly written off by Nintendo, Skull Kid and Wolf are from almost released not recently released (Legends and Zero). Honestly I would guess Inkling was the other character they explored, but probably turned down for a mechanical reason and not a marketing reason. The landscape would be different if the game had been released in a different year. Then the titles recently on the market would reflect a different cast of potentials... not that that would help Isaac, but it might some of the other people not appearing in Smash.

Another factor I'd like to look at is a comprehensive list of the ballot results? My theory is that while no single FE character got a decent result, the franchise did? Which might have led Nintendo to believe Fire Emblem had more desire than what was there, especially aligned with other factors like recent releases, game sales numbers, etc. (For the record: I voted for Tiki because I felt a partial transformation mechanic for a manakete would be interesting and different from the other Fire Emblem characters, which... is sorta what Corrin has going on but with a chainsaw sword.)

 

[AnonymousMoon]

Ignoring the two third parties (which are both, probably, viper nests of problems to apply) and Inklings, the rest of your character offerings aren't exactly topically relevant. Krystal seems to be mostly written off by Nintendo, Skull Kid and Wolf are from almost released not recently released (Legends and Zero). Honestly I would guess Inkling was the other character they explored, but probably turned down for a mechanical reason and not a marketing reason. The landscape would be different if the game had been released in a different year. Then the titles recently on the market would reflect a different cast of potentials... not that that would help Isaac, but it might some of the other people not appearing in Smash.

Another factor I'd like to look at is a comprehensive list of the ballot results? My theory is that while no single FE character got a decent result, the franchise did? Which might have led Nintendo to believe Fire Emblem had more desire than what was there, especially aligned with other factors like recent releases, game sales numbers, etc. (For the record: I voted for Tiki because I felt a partial transformation mechanic for a manakete would be interesting and different from the other Fire Emblem characters, which... is sorta what Corrin has going on but with a chainsaw sword.)

I thought the Ballot made them relevant. that's why Corrin was negatively received

Though I find the concept of Fire Emblem having a large presence on the ballot interesting as said above, that would seem fitting for me

 

[Glory Blaze]

Ignoring the two third parties (which are both, probably, viper nests of problems to apply) and Inklings, the rest of your character offerings aren't exactly topically relevant. Krystal seems to be mostly written off by Nintendo, Skull Kid and Wolf are from almost released not recently released (Legends and Zero). Honestly I would guess Inkling was the other character they explored, but probably turned down for a mechanical reason and not a marketing reason. The landscape would be different if the game had been released in a different year. Then the titles recently on the market would reflect a different cast of potentials... not that that would help Isaac, but it might some of the other people not appearing in Smash.

Another factor I'd like to look at is a comprehensive list of the ballot results? My theory is that while no single FE character got a decent result, the franchise did? Which might have led Nintendo to believe Fire Emblem had more desire than what was there, especially aligned with other factors like recent releases, game sales numbers, etc. (For the record: I voted for Tiki because I felt a partial transformation mechanic for a manakete would be interesting and different from the other Fire Emblem characters, which... is sorta what Corrin has going on but with a chainsaw sword.)

I voted for a FE char, too - the Black Knight from the Tellius canon, because I wanted A) a villain and B) a swordsman with a projectile (i.e. the Alondite sword lasers)

 

[Rakath]

Well, we're comparing different factors:

The Ballot itself: The Ballot could go anywhere (within reason, non-game characters are out and I figure third parties that couldn't be negotiated are out), everyone is relevant but that's simply for the winner slot, there is no second place. Second place factors though (which gets you to...)
Recent Releases: I figure if the DLC window closed six months forward or backward? Totally different run of characters (not you, Isaac and Ridley). If the window closed next summer (instead of next month) I'm sure a Zelda (Zelda U, HW Legends) or Star Fox (Zero) character would be in the slot over a Fire Emblem. Unless somehow both games tank their release numbers...

While the former can push one way or another on the latter, they can't put someone on the table (for a recent Nintendo character) that wasn't there. Of the last three characters added by DLC, two of them were influenced by the ballot. But Konami is a complete mess, I can't see Konami making a rational choice anytime soon. Meaning Snake would be pretty off the table no matter what. Technically Helper Waddle Dee had a recent release but it went pretty much unnoticed so the ballot would have had to swing him to the front, and I don't see it happening.

It'd be nice if Sakurai would share the numbers, he's done it before on ideas sent to Nintendo over Brawl, no details on the idea, but characters they had good concepts sent in over.

 

[GreenMamba]

If Corrin had anything to do with votes in the ballot at all they would have mentioned it at some level, even if it was a hypothetical wider fervor for Fire Emblem--they basically did as much for Cloud.

 

[Terminus_soldier]

I'm in agreement with you there, Dark Pit should have been an alt or had a different moveset, based on his staff. That would have been pretty neat. There's uh, nothing really you can do to un-clone Lucina, she straight up should have been an alt.

easy: make lucina use a sword and lance since in awakening she can use lances if you master seal her

 

[AnonymousMoon]

One more nitpick is the dramatic inflation of Fire Emblem characters between Brawl and 4
went from 2 (Marth and Ike) to 6. I'll give a mention to Roy as he had been planned.

No game in the series had this many characters added between games at once before aside from the Mario franchise from 64 to Melee.

 

[Rakath]

One more nitpick is the dramatic inflation of Fire Emblem characters between Brawl and 4
went from 2 (Marth and Ike) to 6. I'll give a mention to Roy as he had been planned.

No game in the series had this many characters added between games at once before aside from the Mario franchise from 64 to Melee.

Given that half of those characters were not planned from the outset? Not seeing your point. Most of the excess Characters added to any title are due to a level of roster fluffing with clones. And in this case two more FE characters were unplanned DLC. Melee clones were because Dedede wasn't completed (making Mario's move from 2 to 5 instead of 4, and Zelda's bump to 5 instead of 3). Brawl had a ton of Dev screwed characters, so it gave us T.Link and Wolf (clearly unplanned extras thanks to SSE). And in 4 we get Doc, Dark Pit, and Lucina (shown by their placement on the CSS), due to Climbers and probably Snake not coming back.

And before anyone says 'Well clearly Wolf could have taken Lucina's place' Wolf would have taken more work than her, because all three clones are lower development needs than Wolf due to Wolf being not as clonetastic.

Also,
Legend of Zelda: Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, Young Link (4 added in Melee)
Pokemon: Lucario, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard (4 added in Brawl)

Amusingly you picked Mario, which only added 3 characters in Melee (Peach, Bowser, Doc)

It is rare, but it happens.

 

[AnonymousMoon]

Given that half of those characters were not planned from the outset? Not seeing your point. Most of the excess Characters added to any title are due to a level of roster fluffing with clones. And in this case two more FE characters were unplanned DLC. Melee clones were because Dedede wasn't completed (making Mario's move from 2 to 5 instead of 4, and Zelda's bump to 5 instead of 3). Brawl had a ton of Dev screwed characters, so it gave us T.Link and Wolf (clearly unplanned extras thanks to SSE). And in 4 we get Doc, Dark Pit, and Lucina (shown by their placement on the CSS), due to Climbers and probably Snake not coming back.

And before anyone says 'Well clearly Wolf could have taken Lucina's place' Wolf would have taken more work than her, because all three clones are lower development needs than Wolf due to Wolf being not as clonetastic.

Also,
Legend of Zelda: Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, Young Link (4 added in Melee)
Pokemon: Lucario, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard (4 added in Brawl)

Amusingly you picked Mario, which only added 3 characters in Melee (Peach, Bowser, Doc)

It is rare, but it happens.

My point was a speculation to where the "too many reps" originated from.

Lucina was a bonus, so I suppose she doesn't count.

What is your point when referring to DLC being unplanned? It was undecided before the base games release, but once it was decided,it was planned out--decisions were made. They were consciously aware that they were putting a couple more Fire Emblem characters in as DLC--it wasn't an "unplanned, unanticipated" move.
Of course, I'm probably just misinterpreting you

Also, Pokemon lost Mewtwo & Pichu in the transition from Melee to Brawl. Lost 2, then gained 4 so 2+. Zelda's roster was kept the same for Sm4sh and while Pokemon gained only 2. Fire Emblem went from 2 to 3 (Robin) to 4 (Roy) to 5 (Corrin).

Out of curiosity, how did you correlate the three last-minute additions with Snake and Icies not making it?

 

[Rakath]

My point was a speculation to where the "too many reps" originated from.

Lucina was a bonus, so I suppose she doesn't count.

What is your point when referring to DLC being unplanned? It was undecided before the base games release, but once it was decided,it was planned out--decisions were made. They were consciously aware that they were putting a couple more Fire Emblem characters in as DLC--it wasn't an "unplanned, unanticipated" move.
Of course, I'm probably just misinterpreting you

Also, Pokemon lost Mewtwo & Pichu in the transition from Melee to Brawl. Lost 2, then gained 4 so 2+. Zelda's roster was kept the same for Sm4sh and while Pokemon gained only 2. Fire Emblem went from 2 to 3 (Robin) to 4 (Roy) to 5 (Corrin).

Out of curiosity, how did you correlate the three last-minute additions with Snake and Icies not making it?

The thing about DLC is, if it was planned out with the rest of the roster, some choices might not have been made. I assume if the plan was Corrin? I doubt Roy and Lucina would have happened. Corrin is, by far, the strongest FE candidate of the characters that aren't in Brawl. Robin is good, Roy and Lucina are... fine, but not great. However the time they decided on Corrin, Roy was probably already in the works (or done), and we were well past Lucina being decided on. Similarly had they known when they finished the main game that FE would get two new characters, Alph probably would have been the clone instead of Lucina. Or Wolf instead of Roy as first run DLC.

Also given the junk data on Brawl? Pokemon had two more (Plusle/Mainun, Mewtwo), Fire Emblem had one more (Roy), Zelda had two more (Tetra, Toon Zelda). I think Mario had one more. So some of the roster thinning between Melee to Brawl was unplanned. As all the franchises were suppose to have more but something prevented their completion.

As for the last minutes? Similar happened with Melee (Dedede dropped for completing the original clone brigade), the semi-clones which were more obviously planned are listed in order by their franchises. I will admit Snake is a stretch, believable by the narrative but no facts to support it (the game was in the works while Konami started shifting directions and Kojima was probably already on his way out, less pull from creators to make it happen). Icies were in the works, but dropped due to tech issues.

Pre-DLC the roster patterns on both CSS screens are perfectly placed to run franchises on a line without stepping into a new line. Icies and Snake can be placed anywhere in the roster, because neither attaches to a franchise that's there. There was no simple way to do that with the three added characters on the lines with their franchises, thus the anomaly fits a narrative of last minute work to fill gaps left by a roster that would feel weaker with three less characters.

Basically, all things come down to the internet takes umbridge with everything. And coding video games is work and deadlines suck.

 

[Caryslan]

Even if it was possible, it was a bad idea. FF7 is the first FF to NOT be on a Nintendo system and almost every release afterwards has been on PS/Xbox and sometimes PC, but not Nintendo. FF7 is one of the major reasons cited for Sony's dominance in the 90s, a position Nintendo is struggling to get back (granted, the reason these days is mostly due to bad decisions). Given Smash's tagline, I think this is an important point against Cloud. As others have pointed out, Chrono Trigger is almost as well-regarded as FF and fits the Smash theme rather than going directly against it.

As much as I love Brawl and Sm4sh, character choices really jumped the shark here. It started with Snake, then went to Pac-Man, Little Mac, and now the ultimate middle finger, Cloud.

Why are we still talking about Cloud? I was just using him as an example as for why DLC characters shouldn't be legal. This is a Kamui hate thread, not a FF hate thread.

What is wrong with Little Mac? People have wanted him in the game since Melee and he's one of the most popular icons of the 8-bit era, especially in the West where Punch-Out is fondly remembered.

Outside of being a retro pick, he also starred in a very well-received remake of Punch-Out.

Little Mac deserves his roster spot.

As for Pac-Man, what is wrong with the first icon(and one of the biggest to this day) icons of gaming getting a roster spot?

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

So i read majority of this thread and a lot of people think Fire Emblem doesn't deserve one of the last spots on the roster. Just because it isn't a huge franchise is not a reason it shouldn't get another spot on the roster. It is in fact the reason it should get a spot because Nintendo clearly wants FE to be a bigger franchise. One of the reasons FE isn't as big as Mario, Pokemon, ...etc is that it doesn't get enough exposure. Then everyone keeps saying "Nintendo should just make a fire emblem fighting game". Maybe they will make one... maybe smash is a test to see how far they can take FE competitive fighting wise. Or they need to draw more attention/interest towards FE before taking things to the next step. Who knows maybe FE fighters NX is coming (one can dream).

@ the completely derailed side hundreds of players who don't own a Wii u can play smash competitively without dlc. You can go to your locals and play friendlies on setups with DLC or you can call a friend with DLC and host a lobby and test hit boxes, frame data, and what ever else. Even then do people really have zero friends to the point where they can't go over someones house and test on their console? Lastly there are hundreds of YouTube guides that breakdown how a character works.

Back on topic DLC is blessing and we really should be thankful that there was any. Nintendo could have just left Sm4sh the way it was at launch. We don't even pay for balance patches which actually take a lot of time, testing, and effort. In some games you can't even play online if you don't purchase an expansion pack/character.

Also wanted to add the the whole this character doesn't belong in smash because smash players don't want them in is pretty irrelevant (sorry if this comes off as rude). I say this because Sakurai did say DLC was going to be fan service, but some DLC is directed towards newcomers. I have several friends who don't play smash because it doesn't have a sword fighter that suits them. Two of which are buying a Wii u because of Corrin and one that has bought a Wii u because of cloud. And lets be real people who never played smash also voted on the ballot. Because there was a chance a character that would make them play smash had an opportunity of making it in.

@ The too many sword fighters argument majority of the cast has the same punch and kick animations when you really look into it.

TL;DR: FE is a great franchise and can only get better with time and exposure Corrin was a much needed inclusion promotion wise (Also new playstyle for a sword wielder). DLC is NEVER mandatory for you to buy or developers to create. DLC is not catered to only fanbase it's also directed to bring in newcomers.

/EndRant

 

[Wolfie557]

I would prefer Azura any day because she isn't the obvious main protag or avatar from FE but I'm fine with Corrin.

 

[Troykv]

I voted for Micaiah and Roy...

I want a Fire Emblem Fighting Game :3