An appropriate Sheik nerf?

[Tenretsujin10]

'Sup all!

With the latest update of v1.1.0, we see a very slight nerf to Sheik's fair. This nerf is not significant enough to lower her status as the best character in the game at all. As a co-main of Sheik, I don't believe her toolset needs to be nerfed at all (don't call me a heretic). I mean, playing against a Sheik is annoying and makes me want to cry, but is by no means broken/impossible to beat.

But something came to me...

After looking at the amazing website that provides character stats and frame data, Kuroganehammer.com, I can point a possible appropriate nerf. Nerf Sheik's weight value. Sheik currently ties with Zelda as the HEAVIEST lightweight character in the game (honestly, I always believed Zero Suit Samus was heavier than Sheik because of her thunder thighs). It also feels like her weight is an outlier in the lightweight category, since she outweighs her fellow lightweights by A LOT.

I think lowering Sheik's weight value would be a decent nerf to her mainly because: Her lowered weight could allow her to be punished harder for her mistakes, and reward Sheik's opponents better for outplaying her.

Any input on this idea?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It might be a good idea but core character physics values (Weight, run speed, fall speed, air speed etc) are pretty much 99.9% never going to be adjusted.

Also if you lower Sheik's weight then you have to lower Zelda's weight. Think of the poor Zelda mains having their terrible character nerfed. :[

 

[ZombieBran]

Nerf Zelda and I riot.

Sheik would still be the best character even if she weighed 68 units like Jigglypuff.

Sheik's needles need to be less ridiculous, she can otherwise keep her godly frame data.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

The APPROPRIATE NERF For WAYYY back in 1.00 Version would have been

• Needle-Storm End-Lag Increased
• Needle-Storm now pop-ups at around 150-160% instead of 90-100%
• Bouncing Fish knock-back reduced
• Reduce Fair Damage by 1.3% Post Patch 1.04 way
• Slightly Reduce Uair knock-back growth

They should have never nerfed her Bair if in the end she's getting her needles nerfed/fair nerfed even more. Now they nerfed pretty much EVERYTHING ABOUT SHEIK EXCEPT FOR WHAT PEOPLE WANTED her to be nerfed in... Needles. So now we have a character who's going to be pretty much mid-tier if she receive any significant nerfs like needles/ or even some ridiculous stuff people have been asking like more lag on her aerials like.... bruh you do know her Damage per hit is the weakest in the entire game and actually want her to be laggy like the other 50% of the cast?. One of the reasons top tiers are top tiers is because they lack sufficient lag on their moves ? You just asking for this character to get destroyed badly at this point.

At this point people just need to get good and lab out THEIR characters against Sheik like all the other top/high level players are doing. The only way a further nerf would be a Appropriate nerf is if they gave back her bair again and/or increased percent on her moves to compensate for a significant nerf like needles .

Also this point judging by the way Sheik has been handled thus far I doubt she's getting anymore nerfs at this point they have barely been touching her the past 2 patches and it seems like her patching is about to/or already came to a end. And some people really thought she was going to be destroyed this patch when she's already mediocre in a FFA environment/ intermediate level, the development team and Sakurai 1st priority aren't for the Competitive crowd

 

[Joaco]

People need to stop asking for nerfs and use that time to improve

 

[ArikadoSD]

The only nerfs Sheik should get:

- removal of 2nd hitbox/windbox of vanish
- a bit of lag to needles. i repeat. A BIT. NOT 60 FRAMES OR SOME ****
- that's it

people will just have to accept she's an amazing character and move the **** on. I am tired of these kinds of threads. your character sucks against sheik? too bad, she's pretty good, move the **** on.

any other nerfs will destroy her.

 

[Zankoku]

Things I'd want I guess would be...

- KBG on needle storm to 0
- A bit more time on needle cancel. This should make needle canceling without shielding or air-dodging easier, as a side effect.
- Faster startup on dsmash
- Slower startup and less power on fsmash
- More distinct purple color costume

 

[Tenretsujin10]

The only nerfs Sheik should get:

- removal of 2nd hitbox/windbox of vanish
- a bit of lag to needles. i repeat. A BIT. NOT 60 FRAMES OR SOME ****
- that's it

people will just have to accept she's an amazing character and move the **** on. I am tired of these kinds of threads. your character sucks against sheik? too bad, she's pretty good, move the **** on.

any other nerfs will destroy her.

I co-main Sheik and think her kit is fine where it is, my suggestion is just an idea. an IDEA. I think it's pretty weird how Sheik is heavier than someone like (Little Mac), or a few other characters. I by no means complain that Sheik is broken or some s*%#.

 

[Duplighost]

Although this has already been stated above, people need to understand that Sheik is just a good character. We can't have her be nerfed to the point that her aerials or smash attacks do less damage, because she has a difficult time getting a KO as it is. With credit to @ ArikadoSD (who has posted ideas above), the most logical nerf would be lag on needles. To be fair, I am not being biased because I am a Sheik main. I don't think nerfing aerials or smash attacks would really be a good idea, because it would really have a bad impact on Sheik. Instead, I think making needles slower upon release or making them have more lag would be the most reasonable nerf.

 

[Absol]

Sheik doesn't need to be nerfed and further than she has. The community who still hasn't learned the match up or spotdodge bouncing fish needs to be nerfed. She's fine where she's at, and just an annoying character. But you know, opinions and all that junk.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

I'm just saying, her weight value doesn't seem justified to me. Want to know what else I don't think makes sense? This.

 

[00-Zero]

Her weight is totally justified.
Do you know how heavy it is to carry that many needles and grenades?
Also, leg weights are obviously the reason BF hits so hard

 

[Tenretsujin10]

Man, needles don't even seem that heavy. Grenades maybe, but needles no. And it looks like ZSS hits leg day way harder than Sheik.

 

[BlastHappyNinja]

I'm just saying, her weight value doesn't seem justified to me. Want to know what else I don't think makes sense? This.

Ah, the wonders of the Smash universe. Mewtwo weighing 200 plus lbs and being a lightweight.. Sakurai, you so silly.

 

[Dr. Bread]

ive been looking at sheik's frame data and its occured to me that sheik's fair has 10 frames of landing lag, and i thought "why do people have so much trouble punishing this?"

upon closer inspection, i realized that her f-air auto-cancels after frame 11 of its animation.

If sheik's f-air had landing lag like marth's fair she would still be able to ignore it because of that early auto-cancel.

if they nerfed that, sheik would still have most of the same combos, but would have her fair nerfed in neutral.

again though, i kinda find myself on the boat that sheik might not even need more nerfs, she's nowhere near as dominant as s-tier characters in melee or brawl.

Also im a little suspicious of the people who only started talking **** about sheik after ZeRo started pulling her out... like she was easily better in previous patches than she is now and honestly was probably better than diddykong.

people have too many nightmares of brawl metaknight theyre so vigilant for the next OP character that its blinded them.

 

[Powerman293]

Cut down the range of needles for the love of god. Sheik can have all her other stuff for all I care if she didn't have automatic stage control from the first second of the game. Needles cover at least over 50% of final destination when at the edge, which is really stupid. With such a powerful move with so little windup time, it needs to be nerfed in one other area to compensate. Make it cover 40 to 45% of the stage so Sheik doesn't have an immediate advantage and needle camp game.

 

[Simikins]

The only Nerfs that I wouldn't go nuts about are the ones ArikadoX has mentioned. Anything else and I'm gonna go play street fighter.

 

[Dr. Bread]

there seems to be a consensus that needles are not cool.

honestly needle nerfs are fine by me, since yknow... they're important to sheik but like not important to sheik mains... if that makes any sense. like it wont mess up the character it would just reduce her versatility.

 

[Simikins]

As a sheik main I love needles, but it would be understandable, and not too hard to deal with, if they were nerfed. I'd prefer they stay untouched, as it is very fun camping against people who don't know how to deal with it.

To reiterate, sheik doesn't need major nerfs, but to keep all the people who are complaining happy, it wouldn't be too bad to give needles a TINY bit more lag.

Killing the character would just be unnecessary and stupid. There's always going to be a best character in the game, and nerfing them over and over will just lower the level of complexity this game has.

Buff the low tiers and leave sheik alone.

 

[Dr. Bread]

to be honest i feel like the community was pretty on edge after brawl... and afraid of another meta knight.
if we had skipped straight from melee to smash 4, i doubt anyone would be so upset over diddy... expecially considering that he proooooobably wasn't even the best character in 1.0.4, and sheik has been nerfed since then quite a few times. Honestly as somebody who plays and spectates a lot of sheik, her weaknesses are honestly quite glaring, even the best sheik players in the world can't cover them alll the time.

i dont think it would make sense to make all the characters as good as sheik, but if all the characters were as good as fox or even captain falcon for instance, then sheik would start to have some notably losing matchups.

 

[New_Dumal]

Just nerf Needles and a lot of MU will be different.
NEEDLES is the way to go, and as a Sheik main, I think that projectile in the best combo character is stupid.
Everything else is good how it is.

 

[BadDeku]

I think it was M2K who once said something along the lines of "brawl wasn't Meta Knight's fault, it was everyone else's" (feel free to blow me up if I'm misquoting/quoting the wrong person). I was never much into competitive brawl outside of finding it interesting to spectate sometimes, but meta knight is one of the only characters in that game that just feels fun to use. Other characters seemed to rely too heavily on gimmicks and felt much too slow.

One could compare this to smash 4 and sheik, though I think we can all agree not to the same degree. That said, I'm almost starting to see it as a similar but opposite situation. I think sheik is an incredibly interesting character on a mechanical level, but some of her strengths just seem like flawed design rather than interesting tools. Why is it that shiek has one of the least exploitable recoveries in the game? Why is that shiek was given not only the most powerful projectile in the game, but one that shuts down 95% of the cast? I don't just mean DK and Ganondorf either. Many top/high tiers simply have no answer to needles, falcon and luigi just to name a couple. This isn't just a situation of "git good" and "adapt" either, most top players have openly stated that except for a couple of characters, shiek's needles have no answers. Now both of these might be fine, but why on TOP of that is sheik given the single most powerful frontal approach and shield pressure option in the game? Sheik also has an incredibly interesting and powerful punish game that has yet to be even close to fully optimized or explored which I think is awesome, but why on top of that does she have consistent early kill setups that continue to work into high percents out of her down throw?

Shiek's strengths that make her "broken" compared to the rest of the cast aren't tools that make her dynamic and interesting in my opinion. They are tools that make an otherwise incredibly complex and fun character silly and exploitable. I think she is very much comparable to meta knight when you look at her matchup spread and if the sheik optimizations that I keep see happening continue to happen she could possibly be even worse.

That said I'll still continue to find this game fun even if my predictions are correct and she never gets a meaningful nerf. I'm not even trying to whine about sheik and I'm not demanding a nerf, but I wish people would realize that sheik isn't a case of "git good" and even if her forward air and needles were completely REMOVED she'd still be a high tier character. I think editing the frame data on her fair or shortening the range of her needles would be a perfectly reasonable change, but hey I doubt Nintendo would even ever do this. They're probably just going to give her another damage/knockback nerf and I COULD actually see this ruining her as a character--or at least just making her a lot less fun.

 

[Simikins]

Sheik isn't broken, she has huge trouble getting reliable kills, as she has good kill setups, but they require specific percents. She can't just smash attack and get the kill at 100% like many characters. Sheik players need to put in work to kill, most other characters can just flick the C-stick.
Also needles aren't too hard to deal with. Yes they're a very good projectile, but they can be shielded rather easily if they read you are going to throw them. They can also counter pick to a stage with platforms, and stand on the platforms. While I admit it is an annoying projectile, people whining about it isn't going to advance the meta in anyway but to have them nerfed and made useless.

 

[BadDeku]

Sheik isn't broken, she has huge trouble getting reliable kills, as she has good kill setups, but they require specific percents. She can't just smash attack and get the kill at 100% like many characters. Sheik players need to put in work to kill, most other characters can just flick the C-stick.
Also needles aren't too hard to deal with. Yes they're a very good projectile, but they can be shielded rather easily if they read you are going to throw them. They can also counter pick to a stage with platforms, and stand on the platforms. While I admit it is an annoying projectile, people whining about it isn't going to advance the meta in anyway but to have them nerfed and made useless.

I'm not trying to say sheik is an easy character, she isn't. Far from. That doesn't change the fact that at a high level she doesn't have a single losing matchup while every other top tier does. You're right about the meta being young and we should work to advance it rather than complain--hell maybe DKWill will completely master the complex and terrible power of the dong and dk will become the new sheik counter. But if the meta unfolds the way I think it will, sheik will completely dominate the meta.

 

[WondrousMoose]

I'm not trying to say sheik is an easy character, she isn't. Far from. That doesn't change the fact that at a high level she doesn't have a single losing matchup while every other top tier does. You're right about the meta being young and we should work to advance it rather than complain--hell maybe DKWill will completely master the complex and terrible power of the dong and dk will become the new sheik counter. But if the meta unfolds the way I think it will, sheik will completely dominate the meta.

I'd suggest that the meta has already begun evolving in the opposite direction; as an example, Meta Knight is developing as a potent Sheik counter, and that's happened fairly quickly. I'm interested to see what comes next, but I certainly don't think she'll be unstoppable

 

[Simikins]

Sheik will come out on top, I agree. She will not, however, dominate. She has no straight up losing matchups, but there are some iffy ones, that are just a pain in the ass. As we see from top level sheik play at the moment, sheik does very well, but if other players put in the work, it's not impossible to take sheik out. I mean look at what DKwill did to Mr R at SSC. More players need to put in the same amount of work as him.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but in my opinion sheik will not dominate.

Lucky for us the Void combo works on MK. We are in need of more kill setups.

 

[The Legendary Big Boss]

The meta will not formulate if we keep kicking around nerfs everywhere. Honestly, Sheik is fine the way she is and that is coming from someone who does not main Sheik. She is a fast and light character. She is allowed to have strengths and options. Needles are not unbeatable. They can be shielded, crouched under, jumped over, or reflected. Sure they are annoying, but at long range they deal like 6% or less. Her f-air has already been nerfed enough. If anything, Nintendo should just start buffing the low and mid tiers to increase variety and viability.

 

[BadDeku]

I'd suggest that the meta has already begun evolving in the opposite direction; as an example, Meta Knight is developing as a potent Sheik counter, and that's happened fairly quickly. I'm interested to see what comes next, but I certainly don't think she'll be unstoppable

Meta Knight is actually a fair counter argument. I don't actually know nearly enough about him to say where I think that matchup will go, but if he ends up being an actual counter to sheik (not a 50, 50 counter, but a flat out 60, 40 or more in his favor) then I will concede that it's probably unnecessary to nerf sheik. There's always going to be a best character in the game, but if the best character has some kind of counter it will, if anything, discourage an over saturation of that character I think. But I still don't think a minor nerf to needles would hurt the meta at all as it would force the best character to play aggressively and give some bottom tier characters a chance.

 

[jet56]

ill be honest, shiek maybe needs a slap on the wrist with needles. that's it. i don't want shiek mains to suffer the same thing mac mains suffered (mac main here) and have their character unnecessarily nerfed because fans are whining too much about a character being too OP. Macs side b and jab being nerfed would be the same thing as nerfing shieks needles and her bouncing fish. besides, she has a super hard time killing, and her moves stale really fast, like her fair and needles. so characters especially heavy ones are safe till like 150%.

 

[Dr. Bread]

My brother was joking that they should replace needles with the chain.

 

[WondrousMoose]

My brother was joking that they should replace needles with the chain.

Replace the needles with chains. Six chains.

 

[DunnoBro]

Only nerf she might need is on her recovery.

Vanish should only get that height during the blast if jumped into, otherwise she stalls or almost falls from where she is. Similar to the meteor custom in distance (but not speed)

This would make it possible to force her into more situations she can't sweetspot, taking away the one-sided edgeguards she has on most of the cast.

Fair, needles, and her general mobility I think are fine.

 

[AvengerV]

Nerf Needle range and endlag.

 

[Dr. Bread]

I kinda feel like they should just make her like brawl sheik

brawl sheik mostly just suffered because of brawl being brawl and losing her tech-chase from dthrow.

brawl sheik in smash 4 + bouncing fish would honestly just be... kinda fine possibly?

personally though ifeel like sheik partially just wins because so many other characters suffer so badly, whereas sheik has throw combos, kill setups (somewhat unreliable), can convert to combos out of her spacing tools, and most importantly, her combos carry characters off stage. Because of this, characters can't just return to neutral after getting combo'd, and instead have to struggle against sheik's nearly unrivalled edge-gaurds.

Sheik's movset overall feels better designed with more synergy than her peers in the roster. Im sure some characters have a similar amount of synergy, but either lose to sheik due to a matchup disadvantage, nerfs, or simply have a moveset that is too poor overall to compete at an equal level even with the synergy available.

I mean i could be on the totally wrong track, but i feel like a lot of characters are badly designed compared to sheik. That or they dont have any aerials that auto-cancel as soon as the hitbox is no longer active...

A lot of people are saying 'just buff everyone else' to which a lot of people respond that it will make the game janky.
but i dont think we even need to make every character sheik-tier, if every character or even half the characters were as strong as, maybe mario or fox? Sheik would have bad matchups that would arise because of it, and perhaps even drop a few places as a result.

 

[jet56]

Speed and combo potential is the name of the game here. shiek has both in spades. That, and this game is free recovery for almost everyone, so its all about how much percentage you can rack on. shiek still suffers from not being able to kill, so you see 150% on your opponent easily, and her moves stale SUPER FAST (seriously, fair does like 2% after hit 5, so even stringing 5 together is only 10%, which is the same amount as most tilts on characters.)

 

[warionumbah2]

Metaknight doesn't counter Sheik, **** you guys on these days.

 

[BadDeku]

What exactly gives Meta Knight an edge over Sheik? Some of Sheik's strengths are less effective...like ledge guarding for instance, but MK doesn't really have many tools to ledge guard Sheik either from what I can tell. His aerials are multihits I guess which makes the one frame easier, but the closest he gets to a proper lingering hitbox is nair. On top of that, I think Sheik can definitely ledge gaurd MK, just not as hard as she can the rest of the cast. Does MK's dash attack have priority over Sheik's fair? I actually don't even think any characters have an even matchup with Sheik at the moment...MK/Sheik looks like 45/55 to me, Pikachu/Sheik seems to be widely regarded as 45/55 and Mario/Sheik seems to be debated about, but Mario definitely doesn't win and most likely doesn't go even.

 

[smashPony]

What exactly gives Meta Knight an edge over Sheik? Some of Sheik's strengths are less effective...like ledge guarding for instance, but MK doesn't really have many tools to ledge guard Sheik either from what I can tell. His aerials are multihits I guess which makes the one frame easier, but the closest he gets to a proper lingering hitbox is nair. On top of that, I think Sheik can definitely ledge gaurd MK, just not as hard as she can the rest of the cast. Does MK's dash attack have priority over Sheik's fair? I actually don't even think any characters have an even matchup with Sheik at the moment...MK/Sheik looks like 45/55 to me, Pikachu/Sheik seems to be widely regarded as 45/55 and Mario/Sheik seems to be debated about, but Mario definitely doesn't win and most likely doesn't go even.

I think the reason MK is considered a potential Sheik "counter" is his ability to combo us to death from low percentages. A good enough MK wont give us the time or space to get our Sheik stuff started.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Oh hey, I'm not a Sheik main, lemme quickly go over to the Sheik boards and tell them that their wrong about their matchups like an idiot.

...really?

 

[warionumbah2]

Hey im a Sheik main who always got a stick up their back side, even though im using the safest character in the game and can do what i want, even though the percents where Metaknight can uair to death is very precise, even though my Fair has more range than Marths, even though i have the best projectile in the game, even though my meta is moving faster than any other character, even though i have a kill combo that works on fast fallers like Metaknight, even though i basically have everything.

I still think Metaknight beats us because Mr R who was recovering from his evo flu, crowd shouting in his ear and made silly errors like grenade in the air on stage, still lost to Grandmaster Leo therefore Metaknight counters her.

If im an idiot God forbid all of y'all who thinks Metaknight can go even with Sheik. Good lord.

What exactly gives Meta Knight an edge over Sheik?

Outside killing before she can, he has nothing over Sheik. The percents where uair combo's work are stupidly precise, i have no idea why but the myth of Sheik getting combo'd easy by MK needs to go. Her physics are the reason why there's a 7% interval for where she can die meaning he has only 1 chance to do it against the safest character in the game.

Metaknight has nothing to beat BF outside a clutch airdodge, Metaknight cannot do much(if anything at all) against Sheik off stage.