An appropriate Sheik nerf?

[WondrousMoose]

Hey im a Sheik main who always got a stick up their back side, even though im using the safest character in the game and can do what i want, even though the percents where Metaknight can uair to death is very precise, even though my Fair has more range than Marths, even though i have the best projectile in the game, even though my meta is moving faster than any other character, even though i have a kill combo that works on fast fallers like Metaknight, even though i basically have everything.

I still think Metaknight beats us because Mr R who was recovering from his evo flu, crowd shouting in his ear and made silly errors like grenade in the air on stage, still lost to Grandmaster Leo therefore Metaknight counters her.

If im an idiot God forbid all of y'all who thinks Metaknight can go even with Sheik. Good lord.



Outside killing before she can, he has nothing over Sheik. The percents where uair combo's work are stupidly precise, i have no idea why but the myth of Sheik getting combo'd easy by MK needs to go. Her physics are the reason why there's a 7% interval for where she can die meaning he has only 1 chance to do it against the safest character in the game.

Metaknight has nothing to beat BF outside a clutch airdodge, Metaknight cannot do much(if anything at all) against Sheik off stage.

If you want to complain, please do it elsewhere; otherwise, please at least post something relevant to the topic.

 

[warionumbah2]

I think this is on topic, basically others want sheik nerfed then you got sheiks here using metaknight as a way to say she's balanced and doesn't need nerfing. I read this and decided to tell you guys that metaknight doesn't go even and definitely doesn't best sheik.

I re read my post and looks like im complaining hard, but im not, just stating facts. sheik has everything why are earth do you guys think she loses or go even with metaknight? Leo is a weak argument.

If sheik gets nerfed in the right places then metaknight will beat her cleanly, but thats if the developers know what to nerf instead of lowering her damage.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Whenever I look at Sheik I feel the only nerf necessary is one to needles. On a level it does no knockback. Sheik gets so much off an attack that each projectile does a measly 1% percent damage yet still lifts everything off the ground.

And let's be honest that change probably won't occur because all the patches do is add or get rid of a few frames, increase or decrease damage on a move or knockback received from one.

I've yet to see an actual attack have it's point of use completely change for anyone on the roster. Except maybe Bowser's Flying Slam because **** him.

And I'll have to agree with the above, Sheik is a do everything character while everyone else is not. Who do you think performs better at maximum skill level?

 

[Athorment]

It's a little amusing to see all these discussions in regards to Sheik.
Some of the Pro-Sheik players say that all the talks about nerfs would break their character when that's hardly the case. Some of the Anti-Nerf players though are all about helping other characters catch up.
Both are good sentiments, but how would you buff Bowser to Sheik-tier? How can you buff Little Mac?

Now, I am with you guys... I would love bottom tiers to be buffed up. I was among the first to rejoice after hearing Wii Fit Trainer got her hitboxes fixed even if i don't play as her. But let's be honest, Sheik's only bad traits are her steep learning curve and lack of Kill power.
Aggressive play? Screw falcon, Sheik does it better. Defensive Play? Sorry Rosalina, Sheik's needles shoot down a majority of her match ups. Aerial play? Jigglypuff is cute! Now go practice your Fair > Fair > Fair > Bouncing fish combos.

As MagiusNecros points out, Sheik can do everything while everyone else does not. Sheik is in a good position, no doubt... but She DOES need an adjustment.

With her gameplay style being to fluently do combos, the Anti-Sheik players will just have to get used to getting combo'd around with a Fair string... However i firmly believe that the whole cast would start doing better simply by focusing Sheik into the combo ninja she was designed to be.
She has the mobility to evade attacks, now she just needs an adjustment to diminish her defensive play.

The nerf i would give her is more to cover her defensive style to force these "Destruction" combos an all-or-nothing deal:
*Needles:

• -Slightly Increase in charge time
• -Slight increase in start up.
  
• -Lower the amount of hits it does by 1 or 2.
  
• -Charge on this move could potentially alter it into phases too. no Charge? Least range, 1 needle. Could potentially cause no hitstun. Some charge? mid range, 2 needles. the latter needle gets little knockback. Full Charge? Longest range. 3 needles <- this is an example of course and also an idea.
  
• -Conclusion: The general concensus agrees that Needles are a problem that allow Sheik to play an excellent defensive game. Start up lag would make it more reactable while the increase on charge encourages to use other tools instead of relying on 5-or-so-hit Projectiles.

*Grab:

• -Slightly less grab range. Nothing big to the levels of Robin, but something like Marth's treatment from Brawl to sm4sh makes tons of sense here specially with how good the grab follow ups are. Just have Sheik not hunch forward and voila.
  
• -OR deal with throw follow ups. I am a fan of the throw follow ups though, so i would like the cast to get something of their own instead.

*Bouncing Fish:

• -Less Distance after a hit (On shield or otherwise). Reduces how safe it is on shields by a very slight margine, really half the distance of what there is right now would only open up for other fast punishers like Fox or sonic //shrug.
• -Bigger window to suffer "Whiffed" landing lag, preventing it's use from full hop heights. She has good aerials + Air dodge. Mix up your opponents with those, dont give her Aerials + Air dodge + Bouncing fish. Gives a bigger opening to punish this move after missing the combo finisher or bad decision making when recovering with it.

*Vanish:

• -Lessen the strength/range (or removal altogether) of the Up B's second hit since it's basically a free recovery to the ledge. Windbox can mess up non-frame perfect punishes.
  
• -When "Appearing" give it fox laser property where it causes "Burn" damage but doesn't make opponents flinch.
  
• -New idea: Remove invincibilty frames at the start up of Aerial Up B.

*Neutral Air:

• -I have the theory that Samus was given that oh-so-horrible New Neutral Air to complicate her defensive options. Samus' old neutral Air was so good because of it's lingering hitbox properties. This is even more evident on Sheik's ledge-guarding game. I would switch their neutral Airs or (a More plausible case) remove/shorten it's lingering hitbox property. Another option could be to angle her legs a little bit more upwards, needing to fall a little more before the Neutral Air connects while moving some hitboxes further up.
  This tweak of A "Hit forward then behind" Neutral Air makes more sense to me, but that would be material for Smash 5 stuff rather than sm4sh so i guess Neutral Air would remain untouched. This one would of course be a pretty heavy nerf though.

*Fair:

• -On a video someone shared, someone commented on giving Fair less range to keep it combo consistent, but harming it's use on Neutral. I agree cause as it stands now, it can be throw out super safely. I would implement this nerf or Neutral Air, but probably not both.

Of course, seeing all these nerfs at the same time would be too much (As ArikadoX so eloquently puts it: Greninja Nerfs level of cruelty), but keeping some of these (1 or 2) will let us keep seeing Throw > Fair > Fair > Fair > Bouncing Fish combos at the expense of catching Sheik more easily due to diminished defensive tools.

 

[ArikadoSD]

It's a little amusing to see all these discussions in regards to Sheik.
Some of the Pro-Sheik players say that all the talks about nerfs would break their character when that's hardly the case.
Some of the Anti-Nerf players though are all about helping other characters catch up.
Both are good sentiments, but how would you buff Bowser to Sheik-tier? How can you buff Little Mac?

Now, I am with you guys... I would love bottom tiers to be buffed up. I was among the first to rejoice after hearing Wii Fit Trainer got her hitboxes fixed even if i don't play as her. But let's be honest, Sheik's only bad traits are her steep learning curve and lack of Kill power. Aggressive play? Screw falcon, Sheik does it better. Defensive Play? Sorry Rosalina, Sheik's needles shoot down a majority of her match ups. Aerial play? Jigglypuff is cute! Now go practice your Fair > Fair > Fair > Bouncing fish combos.

As MagiusNecros points out, Sheik can do everything while everyone else does not. Sheik is in a good position, no doubt... but She DOES need an adjustment.
With her gameplay style being to fluently do combos, the Anti-Sheik players will just have to get used to getting combo'd around... However i firmly believe that the whole cast would start doing better simply by focusing Sheik into the combo ninja she was designed to be. She has the mobility to evade attacks, now she just needs an adjustment to diminish her defensive play.

The nerf i would give her is more to cover her defensive style to force these "Destruction" generating tournament-winning combos an all-or-nothing deal.
*Slightly Increase charge time and start up on ground Needles. Probably lower the amount of hits it does by 1 or 2. Charge on this move could potentially alter it into phases too. no Charge? Least range, 1 needle. Could potentially cause no hitstun. Some charge? mid range, 2 needles. the latter needle gets little knockback. Full Charge? Longest range. 3 needles <- this is an example of course.
The general concensus agrees that Needles are a problem that allow Sheik to play an excellent defensive game. Start up lag would make it more reactable while the increase on charge encourages to use other tools instead of relying on 5-or-so-hit Projectiles.
*Slightly nerf her grab range or throw follow ups. In terms of range: Nothing big to the levels of Robin, but something like Marth's treatment from Brawl to sm4sh makes tons of sense here. Just have Sheik not hunch forward and voila. Otherwise it's a treatment of "Why does her follow ups work even at high percentages?" kind of deal.
*Cut Bouncing fish's Distance after a hit to prevent her from getting out safely when hitting shields. This allows more characters to punish it on shield. Make it so that it travels a short distance backwards or you can shorten it further to allow better positioning for follow ups/kind of mix up your position after hitting a shield.
*Give a bigger window for the Bouncing fish to suffer "Whiffed" landing lag, preventing it's use from full hop heights. She has good aerials + Air dodge. Mix up your opponents with those, dont give her Aerials + Air dodge + Bouncing fish. Gives a bigger opening to punish this move after missing the combo finisher or bad decision making when recovering with it.
*Lessen the strength or the range of the Up B's second hit windbox. It messes up non-frame perfect punishes.Since i think that wont cut it... I would rather prefer that Up B either doesnt have a hitbox when "Appearing" or give it fox laser properties where it causes "Burn" damage but doesn't make opponents flinch.
*I have the theory that Samus was given that oh so horrible New Neutral Air to complicate her defensive options. Samus' old neutral Air was so good because of it's lingering hitbox properties. This is even more evident on Sheik's ledge-guarding game. I would switch their neutral Airs or (a More plausible case) remove/shorten it's lingering hitbox property. This tweak of A "Hit forward then behind" Neutral Air makes more sense to me, but that would be material for Smash 5 stuff rather than sm4sh so i guess Neutral Air would remain untouched.
*On a video someone shared, someone commented on giving Fair less range to keep it combo consistent, but harming it's use on Neutral. I agree cause as it stands now, it can be throw out super safely.

Of course, seeing all these nerfs at the same time might be much, but keeping some of these will let us keep seeing Throw > Fair > Fair > Fair > Bouncing Fish combos at the expense of catching Sheik more easily due to diminished defensive tools.

I mean I appreciate you writing a huge hard-to-read wall of text but all those nerfs... are really gonna make Sheik plummet all the way to low tier or low mid next to Greninja man. you're so cruel with them. The changes would remove about 3 or 4 of Sheik's best kill setups and really damage her neutral. I honestly think you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Athorment]

All those nerfs... are really gonna make Sheik plummet all the way to low tier or low mid next to Greninja man..

That's why i pointed out that one or two should be sufficient, instead of putting them all.
I like the Needle nerfs and Fair range nerf the most tbh.

Edit: There, how's that for easier reading?

 

[Dr. Bread]

Actually i was thinking to myself earlier that maybe sheik's airspeed/control should be nerfed. It was one of her weaknesses in previous smash games, in this game, her air mobility is above average, and bouncing fish gives even more. If they nerfed sheik's air mobility it would make spacing f-airs riskier, make her horizontal combos harder to connect, and slightly nerf her recovery as well.

Also im not the first person to say this but sheik's recovery needs a major nerf... she can literally go under FD.

 

[ArikadoSD]

can someone delete this thread? It's literally been a wishlist for top tier nerfs.

@ Shaya

 

[Shaya]

I think a good conversation on something like this is possible, but all sides need to take their emotions out of the equation.
No character is entitled to be high/top tier though, and while the idea of gutting a character to non-viability/low tier is quite a drastic thing that would hurt players, if that were to happen it would likely be of benefit to near 100% of everyone else.
Thus far Sheik has received a lot of nerfs and has still never dropped out of top #2 in the mind of any competitive player.

Anyway I dislike wishlisting threads, but I do think design and balance discussions done with a lot of care/respect are positive.