D
Deleted member
Guest
removing MK would be bad?
also the hold R for independent adds 3 chars but doesn't remove PT itself
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Allowing No Fatigue/No Forced Switch PT Hacks in Tourney Play
- Thread starter Steeler
- Start date
also the hold R for independent adds 3 chars but doesn't remove PT itself
metaXzero
Smash Champion
Buffing PT would be buffing the current attributes and attacks of the Pokemon while retaining what makes Pokemon Trainer Pokemon Trainer (3 Pokemon that you have the ability to switch to). And regular PT IS still there.
No I wasn't.
D
Deleted member
Guest
ok you didn't say brawl+, but I wasn't either in the post I quoted you.
but what you were referring IS brawl+, we just haven't arrived in the character balancing stage yet, but that will be a mere 2 weeks
but what you were referring IS brawl+, we just haven't arrived in the character balancing stage yet, but that will be a mere 2 weeks
No it wasn't (ouh, Deja Vu!).
(Hint: Read my post again. I'm actually against Brawl+.)
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
If I'm reading the OP correct and if you're agreeing with it, then what you're agreeing to is the removal of the fatigue system and no forced switching, right? Even if regular PT is there, nobody is going to use him, so in essence we've just created a new character and removed an old, weaker version. That's close to buffing PT if you ask me, and you don't really tweak the game to buff a single character. Again, I would love to have a PT like this normally, but with a hack? I don't know if I could roll with that.
Yes, removing MK would be bad, but that's a discussion for another day.
Also, even if the "real" PT is still in the game, I don't see why anyone would willingly choose the weaker version when the stronger one is right there. PT's representation would drop to a number barely larger than zero in favor of something that's not the PT that came with our game.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
The option is still their for those who want it. That's all that matters.
Assuming that the individual Pokemon lack their Down-B of course...
D
Deleted member
Guest
you talked about how fixing everything is too time consuming etc. but brawl+ is exactly that fixing you talk about and we are already well on our way.
I never said you were pro brawl+, only that what you talked about IS brawl+ (whee deja vu)
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
But again, adding a new character or buffing an existing character, it doesn't matter; with the problem that's already been focused on (getting everyone to have this new version of PT), it's nonviable that this will pass as it stands. Even if there was a way to put this on every Wii that would be used in tournaments, you're still tweaking with a character's innate weakness and fixing it while nobody else gets buffed at all.
You can't just magically add this option for PT players. I mean, what if I wanted a Melee-style Transform for my main? This code pretty much nullifies the cons of having a transformation in a match. On a personal level , I'd love it, but for competitive play, it's just not something I can see flying.
You can't just magically add this option for PT players. I mean, what if I wanted a Melee-style Transform for my main? This code pretty much nullifies the cons of having a transformation in a match. On a personal level , I'd love it, but for competitive play, it's just not something I can see flying.
I was not talking about Brawl+, at all! I do not understand why you insist I did. Did you even re-read the post when I asked you to?!
I was saying that this hack is no more legit than any other hacks to re-balance the game. metaXzero has nothing against this specific hack, so I told him that he has no leg to stand on unless he is OK with banning and hacking the hell out of Brawl (which, AFAIK, he isn't).
While Brawl+ is hacking the game, I am not, in any way, talking about Brawl+ and what it has or hasn't already accomplished.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
As I said to Yuna, I was never pushing for this to be in comp play. I was simply saying "why not".
PT losing the fatigue system so that the Pokemon could be their own characters AND stand on their own (fatigue system would ruin them like PT) as well I guess is just a side-effect.
Because it's a hack and an attempt at re-balancing/rewriting the game when such a rewrite is not necessary (the fatigue does not break the game or over-centralize it, prevent competition or whatever)?
D
Deleted member
Guest
yuna, you might not have talked about brawl+ but it just happens to be the sme thing you talked about.
see it as you describing something to someone else that you want to be made and he happens to already have made exactly that except you weren't thinking about what he made per se.
see it as you describing something to someone else that you want to be made and he happens to already have made exactly that except you weren't thinking about what he made per se.
ftl
Smash Journeyman
Maybe.
How long before a tournament do you wait?
It depends on how long the homebrew folks take to crack whichever latest encryption or lockdown Nintendo creates.
So far it's been same-day stuff. One of these days, if Nintendo cares enough to put some effort into locking down their code, it might be more. It's an arms race. Remember, people who don't install the upgrade can be locked out of whatever online Nintendo services Nintendo wants to lock them out of... perhaps fine if the only thing you use your Wii for is to play Brawl, but what about those who aren't using their console for just one game?
Nintendo is ACTIVELY trying to prevent these sorts of hacks from being possible. For now, the homebrew community has been quick about things. But until this is actually endorsed by Nintendo rather than being a fight *against* Nintendo, I don't expect many to want to use it.
From the Homebrew FAQ itself:
" What if the next Wii update patches the Twilight Hack?
The System Menu 3.3 Update tried to patch this bug by deleting the Twilight Hack savegame and preventing it from being copied from an SD card into the internal storage. Flaws in the implementation of those checks allowed the Twilight Hack to work around it, but we expect that the next update will do a better job of blocking the Twilight Hack.
Work is underway to find a hack in a new game, but we will not release it until the Twilight Hack stops working. "
Way to instill some confidence in the fact that this will continue to be possible. And, heck, maybe it will.
Of course. But stating it won't make it any less frustrating for players trying to get into the tournament scene - to play tournament-rules at home, they now have to obtain Twilight Princess, download code from somewhere on the internet (that's safe, that's not going to mess up your wii at all, really! Just trust us, we're on the internet and say so!), and hack their wii. You really expect that to catch on? Just to give people playing Pokemon Trainer more options?
Legal? Maybe. I googled for it and didn't find any decisive answer, either re: homebrew or re: specifically modding Brawl. Regardless, even the mixed messages mean that no BIG tournament would have it, meaning that the top players who play in the BIG tournaments won't bother with it, meaning that the people who WANT to be top players won't bother with it... ...and you're left with most of the community not being in favor, as is the case right now.
I don't expect hacking a wii to be a reasonable alternative for as long as Nintendo discourages it. If Nintendo released some official way to modify Brawl, or, heck, even condoned the existing homebrew methods rather than making attempts to thwart them with each update, then maybe; but not before then.
No it wasn't!
No, I was describing something I do not want be made.
Steeler wants this in Base Brawl, not Brawl+. I don't care what's in Brawl+ because I just won't play it.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
Adding 3 characters isn't re-balancing Yuna.
Once again, not looking at this as a "buff PT" hack. Looking at this an "add 3 characters" hack. It's not neccessary, but their isn't a strong reason not too (this can't lead to buffing other low-tiers). Really, this more similar to stage freeze hacks and custom stages (in that their is no strong reason not to, but their is no real strong reason TO go through with it).
kupo15
Smash Hero
If you look at this like real life virus' vs the vaccine where nintendo is the vaccine, usually the virus always manages to stay on top with the next strain...provided the hackers are willing to work harder....
Gameshark was legal. This is basically the same thing. Void warranty? sure, but sued? Losing your warranty acts like being sued. Its your wii and you can do whatever you want with it.
just saying..
CT Chia
Smash Obsessed
Very great post Steeler, I really enjoyed reading it. I relate to a lot of what you wrote as I always enjoyed playing as PT for fun, and one of my crewmates mains PT and is definitely the best I've seen (I'd like to see both of you play each other, that would be awesome).
Now I've always been against the whole hacks in tourney thing because it's not standard. No tripping makes sense in tourneys, but it can't be on every Wii. However, lets face it, there aren't too many Pokemon mains out there, so if we can get this hack on like half of the Wiis out there, then this could definitely work. I'm going to run it by the SBR to see their thoughts on this, and who knows, maybe I can sort of fast track this rule to be allowed in tourneys starting with the national tourney CoT4 (see link in my sig for details) coming up next month. I'm very interested in this.
Now I've always been against the whole hacks in tourney thing because it's not standard. No tripping makes sense in tourneys, but it can't be on every Wii. However, lets face it, there aren't too many Pokemon mains out there, so if we can get this hack on like half of the Wiis out there, then this could definitely work. I'm going to run it by the SBR to see their thoughts on this, and who knows, maybe I can sort of fast track this rule to be allowed in tourneys starting with the national tourney CoT4 (see link in my sig for details) coming up next month. I'm very interested in this.
Deoxys
Smash Lord
So if a player who mains non-hacked PT has to play a player who mains a hacked PT, what happens?
Just another reason this is a silly idea IMO.
Just another reason this is a silly idea IMO.
I disagree. If we're going to use no tripping we should make every Judgement a 5 and every Waddle Dee Toss a Waddle Dee. Foxtrotting should have a downside, especially since it makes the character look like a spasming ******.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
Basically, *whatever Pokemon they play as* vs. PT?
I assume they play. What more is their?
It's not adding 3 characters. It's separating a single already-existing character into 3. It's changing a single character, it's re-balancing the game. And you think this won't re-balance the game?
Heck, if this was sjmply adding 3 new random characters, it would be much worse!
Deoxys
Smash Lord
No. The PT player wants his pokemon to switch when he loses a stock.
nightSN
Smash Ace
for brawl+ id say yes.
but for JUST brawl i say no.
but for JUST brawl i say no.
CT Chia
Smash Obsessed
This is true, though let's face it... It's an EXTREMELY unlikely situation. I'm sure they can work out something like which kind of system to play on. Personally I would say they play on a non-hacked system, since that technically is the standard. But I would think the regular PT main would like to take advantage of no stamina stuff despite not switching each stock.
To each his own, but let's face it, 99.7% of brawlers do not like random tripping lol.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
You're saying the original PT (how he currently is) will be gone. That's false.
Yes. PT is still their with this hack (hold R when selecting PT IIRC to be regular PT instead of an individual Pokemon).
So yeah....
Deoxys
Smash Lord
Some characters trip less than others. I don't see how one can possibly justify taking away this advantage..
Oh, ok then.
Gindler
Smash Champion
After playing brawl+ and getting to be Ivy the whole time I'd say this would be awesome. However I'm not planning on ever hacking MY wii though.
D
Deleted member
Guest
just out of curiousity, why not?
CT Chia
Smash Obsessed
no characters trip less or more than others. its proven. no need to talk about tripping though, this is all about PT.
can someone plz emphasize on what metaXzero said? If you hold R while choosing pkmn trainer with the hack it's so you still switch when you die? what about stamina? is that back to enabled?
also, say with the hack your charizard. you die, u come back as char. you change ur mind and u decide to b squirtle. you dB to squirtle and die. u come back as squirtle right?
can someone plz emphasize on what metaXzero said? If you hold R while choosing pkmn trainer with the hack it's so you still switch when you die? what about stamina? is that back to enabled?
also, say with the hack your charizard. you die, u come back as char. you change ur mind and u decide to b squirtle. you dB to squirtle and die. u come back as squirtle right?
How is adding three characters not just as much nonsense if not more nonsense than buffing characters? That makes it even more of a different game. I don't agree with defining it like that, but that seems to make the choice of "no" even more obvious.
Do you know what other simple property that is probably not even intentional screws a character? Ganon's up special inflicts no hitstun at all, and much of the cast can punish him on reaction even when he hits. Now, Ganon's up special would be an air grab that would fit into his generally dangerous aerial game very well; he'd definitely move up at least one place on the tier list if it worked like it seems like it should. However... it doesn't, and Ganon sucks even more because of it. Should we hack it to have normal hitstun? No. Having poor or buggy design damage a character is just a part of the game. I think we can all agree that the Pokemon Trainer's system was not very well thought out, and it overall is an impediment to his component characters. We might even say it dooms him to forever be underused because almost no one actually likes all three Pokemon since they are so different from each other. However, the fact of that matter is that that's how it is, and it's not a good idea to make the game into a different game because you would enjoy the game more like that. Do you know what I really enjoy in the game that I can't use in tournaments? Flat Zone 2. Should we hack Flat Zone 2 to be a "better" stage? All we have to do is remove King Dedede's chaingrab and cut the knockback of the lion tamers in half!
The comparison to no tripping is good only in the sense that no tripping is another bad idea. I use different strategies because tripping is in the game, and I'd be mad if I lost to someone who was constantly dashdancing with Sonic because of a no tripping code (the correct strategy to beat Sonic doing that is to wait for him to trip and punish). The ratios of tripping between the characters when you consider playstyle is really huge by the way; Sonic probably inputs at least ten times as many dashes as Jigglypuff. Therefore, a no tripping code could be said to help him ten times as much as her. That sounds extremely unfair to me.
The Ness point is a strong counterargument even conceded in the first post. Currently Ness gets chaingrabbed by release grabs by 1/3 of a character which is very reasonable to circumvent and overcome. Making him have a really horrible matchup out of nowhere doesn't sound like a good idea to me. In general, it's just a bunch of nonsense to be losing to a single PT Pokemon when you could have beaten the team; you're using hacks to directly change the results of matches at that point.
Regardless of it all, this is silly. Steeler, you and I both know that Pokemon Trainer is really not that bad. Regardless of where he falls relative to the rest of the cast, he doesn't actually have any horribly unwinnable matchups or anything, and he can threaten everyone. Ivysaur isn't even all that bad; it's not like his recovery is all that much worse than Olimar's, and look at how well Olimar is doing these days. I'd take Ivysaur over Captain Falcon or Ganon or Samus; that's for sure. Pokemon Trainer is definitely a tournament viable character regardless of whether he's particularly good or will ever be popular; I think trying to make arguments like this to "help" him is really doing more harm than good to his cause. I remember you even saying to me that Pokemon Trainer is the least explored member of the cast (which is true); when you take that in and notice that if nothing else you personally have managed to at least make yourself a threat with the Pokemon Trainer to people who use top tier characters and use them well, don't you think it's a little early to "give up"?
Do you know what other simple property that is probably not even intentional screws a character? Ganon's up special inflicts no hitstun at all, and much of the cast can punish him on reaction even when he hits. Now, Ganon's up special would be an air grab that would fit into his generally dangerous aerial game very well; he'd definitely move up at least one place on the tier list if it worked like it seems like it should. However... it doesn't, and Ganon sucks even more because of it. Should we hack it to have normal hitstun? No. Having poor or buggy design damage a character is just a part of the game. I think we can all agree that the Pokemon Trainer's system was not very well thought out, and it overall is an impediment to his component characters. We might even say it dooms him to forever be underused because almost no one actually likes all three Pokemon since they are so different from each other. However, the fact of that matter is that that's how it is, and it's not a good idea to make the game into a different game because you would enjoy the game more like that. Do you know what I really enjoy in the game that I can't use in tournaments? Flat Zone 2. Should we hack Flat Zone 2 to be a "better" stage? All we have to do is remove King Dedede's chaingrab and cut the knockback of the lion tamers in half!
The comparison to no tripping is good only in the sense that no tripping is another bad idea. I use different strategies because tripping is in the game, and I'd be mad if I lost to someone who was constantly dashdancing with Sonic because of a no tripping code (the correct strategy to beat Sonic doing that is to wait for him to trip and punish). The ratios of tripping between the characters when you consider playstyle is really huge by the way; Sonic probably inputs at least ten times as many dashes as Jigglypuff. Therefore, a no tripping code could be said to help him ten times as much as her. That sounds extremely unfair to me.
The Ness point is a strong counterargument even conceded in the first post. Currently Ness gets chaingrabbed by release grabs by 1/3 of a character which is very reasonable to circumvent and overcome. Making him have a really horrible matchup out of nowhere doesn't sound like a good idea to me. In general, it's just a bunch of nonsense to be losing to a single PT Pokemon when you could have beaten the team; you're using hacks to directly change the results of matches at that point.
Regardless of it all, this is silly. Steeler, you and I both know that Pokemon Trainer is really not that bad. Regardless of where he falls relative to the rest of the cast, he doesn't actually have any horribly unwinnable matchups or anything, and he can threaten everyone. Ivysaur isn't even all that bad; it's not like his recovery is all that much worse than Olimar's, and look at how well Olimar is doing these days. I'd take Ivysaur over Captain Falcon or Ganon or Samus; that's for sure. Pokemon Trainer is definitely a tournament viable character regardless of whether he's particularly good or will ever be popular; I think trying to make arguments like this to "help" him is really doing more harm than good to his cause. I remember you even saying to me that Pokemon Trainer is the least explored member of the cast (which is true); when you take that in and notice that if nothing else you personally have managed to at least make yourself a threat with the Pokemon Trainer to people who use top tier characters and use them well, don't you think it's a little early to "give up"?
D
Deleted member
Guest
**** wall of text.
and you are not even correct since the hold R code allows you to pick the individual pokemons, that don't switch or have stamina (at least I hope so).
why would this be nonsense? idealy PT is always better than the individual pokemon, they only have the advantage that they do not get tired.
and you are not even correct since the hold R code allows you to pick the individual pokemons, that don't switch or have stamina (at least I hope so).
why would this be nonsense? idealy PT is always better than the individual pokemon, they only have the advantage that they do not get tired.
When did I say this?
D
Deleted member
Guest
ehm he quoted you in his post. but the only one litteraly saying "removing" was succesor of raphael
metaXzero
Smash Champion
That's what I'm kinda getting at from this post anyway.
glad to see my thread wasn't ignored. 
ok i want to clarify a few things
this indeed re-balances the game somewhat. obviously. whenever you add, subtract, or modify any character, you re-balance the game. and this is where you start to have issues with the slippery slope of hacking. AA makes the point that no tripping re-balances the game (a very insignificant amount though).
the main worry i'm seeing in many responses (aside from obvious hacking barriers) is that this is buffing Pokemon Trainer. Pokemon Trainer, as is, is more effective than any of the single Pokemon. It's just very difficult to do because few, if any Trainers have achieved the required skill level with all three Pokemon. I know that the best Trainers right now would continue to play PT as is because when all three Pokemon are solid, the benefits outweigh the negatives when used correctly. a squirtle main will suffer because many characters have release grab KOs on him, charizard has a heavyweight weakness to strings of attacks at low percent, and ivysaur is easily gimpable. all three of these issues are solved with correct PT play.
if i were able to implement this in an ideal way, i would remove all ability to switch as solo Pokemon (ie down B does nothing) along with the current hacks. this way there is no resemblance to PT and you are simply playing one normal character. anyone who wants the ability to use more than one Pokemon must also deal with stamina and forced switch on death. this is the best method, imo, in achieving the intended goal of only Pokemon mains that are free of the positives and negatives of Pokemon Trainer. PT will stay as is. Using only some combination of hacks (like just no stamina, or only one switching hack) is clearly buffing Pokemon Trainer in some way. Because you still have the ability to switch.
So my point is that by removing all switching and stamina, which are the only things that Pokemon Trainer adds to the characters, the solo Pokemon would be removed of everything from the PT system. Pokemon Trainer is nothing more than stamina, forced switch, and a switch move between three characters. So I do not believe PT would be getting any form of buff, as the four entities would be entirely separate.
And again, PT is more effective (once you actually become really good with them and handling the mechanics) than a solo Pokemon in tournament play.
I realize there is a very, very fine line that these hacks are approaching and perhaps even breaching, but I think that there is a difference between making 3 characters completely free of switching and stamina compared to buffing Ganon's Up Special. You are creating three "new" characters and leaving the existing form unchanged, not buffing an existing one.
ok i want to clarify a few things
this indeed re-balances the game somewhat. obviously. whenever you add, subtract, or modify any character, you re-balance the game. and this is where you start to have issues with the slippery slope of hacking. AA makes the point that no tripping re-balances the game (a very insignificant amount though).
the main worry i'm seeing in many responses (aside from obvious hacking barriers) is that this is buffing Pokemon Trainer. Pokemon Trainer, as is, is more effective than any of the single Pokemon. It's just very difficult to do because few, if any Trainers have achieved the required skill level with all three Pokemon. I know that the best Trainers right now would continue to play PT as is because when all three Pokemon are solid, the benefits outweigh the negatives when used correctly. a squirtle main will suffer because many characters have release grab KOs on him, charizard has a heavyweight weakness to strings of attacks at low percent, and ivysaur is easily gimpable. all three of these issues are solved with correct PT play.
if i were able to implement this in an ideal way, i would remove all ability to switch as solo Pokemon (ie down B does nothing) along with the current hacks. this way there is no resemblance to PT and you are simply playing one normal character. anyone who wants the ability to use more than one Pokemon must also deal with stamina and forced switch on death. this is the best method, imo, in achieving the intended goal of only Pokemon mains that are free of the positives and negatives of Pokemon Trainer. PT will stay as is. Using only some combination of hacks (like just no stamina, or only one switching hack) is clearly buffing Pokemon Trainer in some way. Because you still have the ability to switch.
So my point is that by removing all switching and stamina, which are the only things that Pokemon Trainer adds to the characters, the solo Pokemon would be removed of everything from the PT system. Pokemon Trainer is nothing more than stamina, forced switch, and a switch move between three characters. So I do not believe PT would be getting any form of buff, as the four entities would be entirely separate.
And again, PT is more effective (once you actually become really good with them and handling the mechanics) than a solo Pokemon in tournament play.
I realize there is a very, very fine line that these hacks are approaching and perhaps even breaching, but I think that there is a difference between making 3 characters completely free of switching and stamina compared to buffing Ganon's Up Special. You are creating three "new" characters and leaving the existing form unchanged, not buffing an existing one.
Originally I thought just the removal of tripping was needed; I didn't think about the PT.. but I do agree, I think it would be nice to be able to play them without forced switch, I dont really play PT much because of the forced switch, but I enjoy using squirtle. I think that just that and removal of tripping is all we really need for official tourneys, I think the hit stun, L cancel, and melee air dodging are all good for fun and really more like "test" matches. I've really gotten used to the physics of brawl, with the reduced hit stun, and lack of L cancel, it actually proves in many ways to create more mindgames than in melee. Melee had mindgames but once one got a combo, it was as simple as reading teching and DI's. Now we have to read and predict what they will do once their hit stun stops, they might air dodge or aerial right away. but eh we all have our opinions.. but I think ^ is the most logical choice.
And maybe a way could be devised to make it easier to run the codes, and an easier interface/system to picking which codes, and distributing them to whoever wants them.
And maybe a way could be devised to make it easier to run the codes, and an easier interface/system to picking which codes, and distributing them to whoever wants them.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
The point you made was good but the example itself made me sad.
Revven
FrankerZ
I was saying that IT HAS ALREADY BEEN MADE!
Code:
Hold SHIELD for Independent Pokemon +no wreck My Music [spunit262]
06407BD0 0000000E
04030F0D 1E1B1F1B
201B211B 221B0000
046847C4 60000000
C268482C 00000003
3800003F 981400B8
2C1D0003 40A20008
3BA00004 00000000
C2684964 00000007
881400B8 2C00003F
40A20028 2C03001D
40A20008 3860001E
2C03001F 40A20008
38600020 2C030021
40A20008 38600022
987400B8 00000000This removes switching and allows the ORIGINAL PT, just select a Pokemon (Charizard for example), when you go past the char select screen Hold R and it works just like ZSS does! You'll be Independent Charizard! WOO! No force switch NOR switching allowed! If you wanna be regular PT, just select the Pokemon you wanna start with as normal and don't press R. I also believe this covers the No Fatigue as well.
/thread (not really)
SilverBlaze
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2007
- Messages
- 86
Why should PT, if using the no fatigure/forced switch codes, not be allowed to switch in general with DownB? The characters would be the same as Zelda/Sheik, but with one more transformation.
The point can be made that because PT has more characters, the player thus has more options in battle, but for example, someone can't just switch back and forth between Squirtle and Charizard on a whim because Ivysaur is inbetween. Having to wait for the transform time once can already be punished easily, but twice? That can get ugly, especially if said player sucks with Ivysaur and has to decide between playing Ivy or getting punished out of the Pokemon Switch
The point can be made that because PT has more characters, the player thus has more options in battle, but for example, someone can't just switch back and forth between Squirtle and Charizard on a whim because Ivysaur is inbetween. Having to wait for the transform time once can already be punished easily, but twice? That can get ugly, especially if said player sucks with Ivysaur and has to decide between playing Ivy or getting punished out of the Pokemon Switch