All Things Shiny Here. Everything about Falco's Shine/Reflector [Updated 24th Nov]

[Fluke]

All Things Shiny Here.
brought to you by Fluke.

This guide is all about one of Falco’s signature moves: The Shine/Reflector/Down Special.

Author’s Message: Please Rate this Thread!!!
It’s a shame that not many people on smashboards rate threads. I believe this thread should be stickied, for the amount of time I have spent making this, AND that the information shown here would be a great guide to all falcos, new or old. I’m hoping if people rate this thread, then the mods would see the importance of this and might sticky it. Thanks!

Now with the inclusion of the Developments section, you can contribute to any ideas to further develop the usability and understanding of Falco’s Shine! Head over to that section now! Anything green in the other sections are things that require your help as well!



Note:
- This is a compilation thread of all things about the shine that I hear about (mainly from here in the SmashBoards). I’m personally attempting test these out myself, given if that I have the time.

- The information here is not perfect, new things are always being found and it’s up to you to share them. I will give credit to the people who present it here. If I forgot, just tell me. Also, they are credited for presenting it here, not necessarily discovering it. The credited people are in square brackets eg. [Blad01]



Update History:

24th November 08
-Added DShine Picture
-Added “Pseudo Trip Combo”
-Added “Developments” Section for everyone to help improve the usability and understanding of the shine.

23rd November 08
- Renamed “Description of the Shine” to “Falco’s Shine: An Overview” and added its sub-categories.
- Expanded on Shine Properties and also added “Tripping Properties”.
- Amended Lucario’s Side B in terms of the Shine.
- Expanded on “Falco’s Shine vs Lucario’s Double Team”
- Added Max % for trip on each char.

9th September 08
- Added “Double Shine” Technique
- Added “Ledge Hopped Shine” Technique
- Added some info on “Combos”.
- Added “Lucario’s Side B can be reflected”.
- Expanded “Description of the Shine” section
- Expanded “General Uses” section

10th July 08
- Rearrangement of Info so it fits more nicely
- Added Falco's Shine vs Falco's Shine
- Added Snakes Codec Taunt about Falco's Shine’s Versatility
- Added Falco’s Shine vs Pit’s Mirror Shield
- Worked on the “Falco’s Shine vs Character Movesets List”
- Explain what people think is “reflecting” Falco’s Shine under Reflective Properties.
- Added bits and pieces of information which are labelled “Working on it” (So you can see what I am working on/contribute to)

7th July 08
- Split Properties to “Physical” and “Reflective” (To go more in depth in each, instead of generalising all)
- Initiated List of character moves that are reflected by and “reflect” the Shine under "Reflective Properties"
- Added more info on Falco's Shine vs Zelda's Din's Fire
- Added Falco's Shine vs Peach's Toad


Contents:
To quickly skip to a section: Ctrl + F #<no.>
eg. To skip to the “General Properties” section: Ctrl + F #3

1. Falco’s Shine: An Overview

1.1 Visual Appearance
1.2 General Notes
1.3 Diagram of the Shine​

​

2. General Uses

2.1 Character Matchup Specific Uses
2.2 Shine Techniques

-Ledge Hopped Shine (LHS)
-Double Shine (DShine)​

​

3. Shine Properties

3.1 Physical Properties
3.2 Tripping Properties
3.3 Reflective Properties
3.4 Falco’s Shine vs Character Movesets List​

​

4. Combos

4.1 Pseudo Trip Combo
​

​

5. Misc

6. Developments!

- Things to Test/Add
- Shine to Laserlock
- Double Shine
- Inconsistency of Physical and Reflective Hit Hypothesis
​

​

#1 Falco’s Shine: An Overview

#1.1 Visual Appearance
Ooooh Shiny

Grounded Shine
Falco grabs out his shiny, blue, hexagonal reflector and kicks it forward in one quick motion. He does this so fast that all you really see at the start is him back-kicking and the shine travelling at a high velocity, up to a certain horizontal distance from Falco. Those who have quick eyes also may notice that Falco flashes blue as he kicks the shine.

Once it reaches the peak of its travel distance, it returns like a boomerang, back to Falco, but at a slightly slower velocity. As it finally returns to Falco, he catches and puts it back onto his waist. Throughout the duration where the reflector is out, it shines bright blue with sparks of white, hence why it is called the “shine”.

On the general usage of the shine, due to the intense action of SSBB, the shine appears simply as two hexagons, one inside the outer, shrinking and growing slightly at a rapid rate. However if you pause the game as during Falco’s shine, you can see the freeze frame appearance of the shine, indicating there is much more to the shine than it meets the eye.


Aerial Shine
Visually, the aerial shine looks very similar to the grounded shine. However due to the fact that the shine has to remain exactly horizontal to Falco at all times, any vertical movement (such as jumping/falling) will alter the shine’s path of movement, usually resulting in an arced trajectory.



#1.2 General Notes on the Shine:
- Reflective, short ranged boomerang-like projectile and also a dis-jointed hit box.
It physically hits only when it’s moving outwards, where the physical hitbox is approximately the mini hexagon at the centre. How quick the shine hits depends on the distance you are from them, as the hitbox of the shine needs to travel to them for it to hit. Nevertheless, most people cannot react fast enough to block or avoid the attack, unless they were expecting it. If the shine physically hits, there is a chance where the opponent may trip.
The outer blue hexagon is the reflective “hitbox” of the shine, and remains reflective throughout the whole duration of the shine.
- Reflectively covers Falco’s back at the beginning and ending frames of the move. [Blad01]
This is due to the fact that the shine surrounds Falco’s body on these frames.
- Falco cannot act until his puts the shine back on his waist.
This is what causes many people to think that Falco’s shine is not good, as the ending lag, waiting for the shine to return to him is extremely costly, making it very punishable. However, if you do hit the opponent with the shine, be it physically or by reflection, the time the Falco is vulnerable is reduced, if any at all.
- Cannot be held out by holding B.
Unlike the other Starfox characters (Fox, Wolf), holding B does not make shine stay out.
- Falco’s hit box extends to his legs during his shine
As Falco’s hitbox is extended forward when he shines, some attacks when timed right can hit Falco from the front, before the shine’s hitbox hits them.
- If Falco is hit during the performance of the move the shine instantly stop, grow huge and stall for a brief period. [Hawks go Caw]
However it still reflects in this state. [Emperor Time]
- You can keep/alter your aerial momentum when you aerial shine
Just like when Falco is in the air performing a standard aerial attack, or doing nothing at all, you can directionally influence the way you move using the analog stick during the shine.
- You cannot alter the angle it comes out
Unlike Link’s Boomerang where you can alter the angle by tilting the control stick, it always initially moves horizontally forward. However, you can alter trajectory of the shine by using an aerial shine, as any vertical movement will arc the path of the shine.
- It ignores all terrain, travelling through walls/floors/anything solid. [Domon] The shine will always follow the set path according to Falco’s movement. This can be taken to our advantage by using the shine through solid obstacles to attack the opponent on the other side, and Ledge Hopping Shines. (Refer to Shine Techniques on LHS)

#1.3 Diagram of the Shine (At Maximum Range)
The picture below visualises some of the above General Notes on the Shine:

Maximum Range of the Shine
- Both Physical and Reflective Hitbox ranges are marked out. The darker blue Falco on the right is just out of range of the physical hit of the shine. To ensure this, I used the fact that Falco’s hitbox is extended forwards by his swinging arms during his neutral position, and after taking the screenshot, I did manage to hit the other Falco without moving either of them!

Hitboxes
- The Physical hitbox would be the green shaded area. Note that I did not shade it green myself - the screenshot was already like that, but I find that this area is extremely accurate to the size of the hitbox.
- The reflective hitbox would be the bright blue outer hexagon.
- Note the length of which Falco’s leg extends behind him. It is about the same range that Falco’s hitbox is extended forwards at the beginning of the shine

#2 General Uses:
- Reflecting Projectiles (Refer to Reflective Properties Section.)
- “Good for containing (stopping) an enemies attack” [Smash Dojo]
The shine has crazily high priority, meaning it is relatively safe to use directly against most attacks.
- Catching people off guard
The shine comes out very fast, able to hit many opponents by surprise. This is especially useful against aggressive opponents which try to rush you as it quickly stops their approach and pace.
- Quick Spacing
When caught in a difficult position, such as the opponent being too close to you, or just outranging you in your normal attacks, the shine is a quick move to push them back, and has quite a long range compared to Falco’s other moves.
- Tripping opponents
Tripping the opponent enables a tech chase. In the tripped position, the opponent can only do four things. Roll towards you, Roll away from you, Get up attack or simply Get up. Being able to predict which one they do enables you to punish them with an attack or grab.
- Anti-Projectile Spamming
Simply reflecting projectiles and hurting campers and will usually stop them. Approaching with Short Hopped Shines is a viable way to get some distance and pressure on the opponent.
- Extra damage and spacing to the end of combos
Examples include SHDL to Shine and Down Grab to Shine. The possibility of a trip can further extend into another pseudo-combo. (Refer to the combo section)
- Edgeguarding tactics
Gimping horizontal recoveries such as Fox’s Illusion is easier with the shine as there is a larger period of time to hit them with the moving physical hitbox of the shine and direct contact between Falco and the opponent’s attack is not required.
The shine can also be used near the ledge if the opponent is close enough to be hit by the shine, but none of your other moves.
- Attacking through solid structures/walls [Domon]
By abusing the fact that the Shine’s path of movement is not affected by anything other than Falco’s movement, you can attack the opponent through any solid obstacle.
- Countering Edgeguarders. Ledge Hop Shine. (Refer to Shine Techniques)

#2.1 Character Matchup Specific Uses:

- Exploding Snake’s Proximity Mines safely [Wolfang]
Snake’s Down Smash planted mines can be triggered when the shine passes over (at ground level) or hits it. For it to be safe, you must activate the mine with the shine when Falco’s body is outside the range of the explosion.

- Anti-Diddy Banana Rush
Diddy’s play style is often based on rushing the opponent, by the use of quick attacks with the combination of bananas. A typical set-up could include some form of Diddy running up and directly throwing a banana at you. What you can do to counter it is to reflect this banana, which should hit him instead, tripping him. Following the reflective properties of the shine, the banana will also be in Falco’s possession, so Diddy will trip over the banana if he walks on it, turning his plan against him. If Diddy was close enough, he could be hit both by the physical hit of the shine AND the banana.



#2.2 Shine Techniques:

Ledge Hopped Shine (LHS) [blackcat13; Mista Sinista]
To perform this, while hanging on the edge, quickly: drop off, jump, and shine. By abusing the fact that the shine’s trajectory is not affected by walls, you can hit/reflect anyone standing close the ledge, making it a relatively safe anti-edgeguard move.

In other words:
Tap/Tilt Down or Away from the ledge>Jump>Shine.

You can perform the LHS quick enough to regrab the ledge on your descent. If you are too slow, Falco would still be performing the shine as he passes the ledge, not grabbing it. Often you the slowness comes from Tapping Down, which causes you to fastfall, so when you jump, you might not have enough height to be on par with the ledge when the shine is finished. However you can still recover using your Firebird (although this starts to create dangers for Falco). This is assuming you go straight up and down with the LHS as you can move Falco horizontally during the LHS, which can bring you onto or away from the stage.

But since you are using an aerial shine, you can alter your aerial momentum towards or away from the stage. Going onto the stage allows you to continue follow up on the opponent especially if they are tripped. Moving away from the stage is usually an unwise decision as you can barely phantasm or firebird to the stage (unless you want to suicide, but that’s another story)

However, some precision in aiming the shine is required, as the path of the physical/reflective hitbox follows an arc shape due to your vertical movement, remembering also that it only physically hits until the shine is the furthest distance from you.

<Insert Picture/Video of LHS>


Double Shine (DShine) [Tommy_G]
To perform this, use the shine exactly as you land or run/walk off the stage/platform. If done right, it will look as if two shines come out, one inside the other.

Picture of LHS below: Usually it looks a lot flashier than this, but this was the only picture I had which clearly shows that there are two shines.

Note: At this point of writing, there seems to be no bonuses given compared to a normal shine (other than the cool cosmetic effect). However it has been hypothesized that the trip rate of the shine is increased.




#3 Shine Properties:
As we now know, the shine is a reflective, short ranged boomerang-like projectile and also a dis-jointed hit box, therefore having both physical AND reflective properties.

- Range: Refer to “Diagram of the Shine”
- Start-up Lag: None/Minimal The further away the opponent is, the longer it takes for the shine to reach them.
- Ending Lag: Very Long/Bad

- Frame Data [3GOD]
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187546

Down-B:
Total: 51 frames
First hits on frame 4 – 6 at least
Shield hit lag: 0
Shield stun: 9
Advantage: -34

#3.1 Physical Properties:

- Damage: 6% (6%,5%,5%,4%,4%,4%,3%,3%) But I don’t think shine is that spammable, so consider it as mainly 5-6% damage.
- Priority: Over 9000! Seriously, it hits through anything, except super armour and perfectly timed attacks which hit Falco before the shine hits them.
- Knockback: The knockback slighty increases with dmg % A considerably noticeable difference occurs every 50%. It can kill at 770-850%
- Hit Box: The centre mini hexagon. Physical Hit Box DEAD SPOT: when the shine is done at point blank. [Drakuaza] The range of this dead spot range is Jig’s rest. [Ratherion]
- Can hit multiple opponents physically It does not have the property of a single projectile which only hits the first thing it collides with, such as Falco’s Laser.
- Chance to trips the opponent. The chance to trip the opponent is quite high (~50%) compared to most (non-100% tripping) moves. (Refer to “Tripping Properties” for more info)





#3.2 Tripping Properties:
Falco’s Shine is one of the many attacks in brawl which can trip the opponent. However, it is only Falco’s Shine (and Diddy’s bananas) which has a quite substantially high trip chance.

For the trip to occur, Falco does not need to be on the ground, by the opponent must be. Having said this, it is possible to trip opponents on platforms above you with an aerial shine.


To understand more about moves which trip and what animations the opponent undergoes for the trip to occur read Mugwhump’s thread:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=149978 (hard to decode through the sarcasm, but still useful)


Trip Max % for each character list
Characters Listed alphabetically

The % figure stated is the highest damage that the character will trip from STANDING POSITION

As you can see, the max % for trip is proportional to their weight.

Other things to note:
- Push “Glide” distances vary from character (Luigi’s is the farthest)
- Some characters can be further tripped even when their damage is above the stated max when they are in the TRIPPED position. These characters are marked with a * next to the dmg %.

Bowser

122%

Captain Falcon

112%

Diddy Kong

106%

Donkey Kong

120%*

Falco

100%

Fox

96%

Game and Watch

96%

Ganondorf

115%

Ice Climbers

105%

Ike

113%

Jigglypuff

91%

King Dedede

117%

Kirby

97%

Link

112%

Lucario

110%

Lucas

107%


Luigi

108%

Mario

109%

Marth

105%

Meta Knight

98%

Ness

107%

Olimar

100%

Peach

104%

Pikachu

98%

Pit

107%

Pokémon Trainer

Charizard

116%
Squirtle

96%
Ivysaur

110%

R.O.B.

114%

Samus

115%

Shiek

101%

Snake

118%

Sonic

107%

Toon Link

105%

Wario

114%

Wolf

111%

Yoshi

114%

Zelda

101%

Zero Suit Samus

99%


#3.3 Reflective Properties:

1.5x Multiplier, same speed. Technically faster compared to other reflectors due to reduced travel distance. Instead of the projectile going to Falco’s body and back to the opponent, it is to and from Falco MINUS TWICE the distance from Falco to his reflector (Simple concept really). And due to some projectiles disappearing after a certain distance, this enable the projectile have enough distance to return back to the sender.

Falco obtains ownership of the projectile. Generally: Any thrown projectile will become Falco’s. If it is user based, where it does no hurt the user such as a banana or pokeball, If Falco reflects it before it lands, then it will become his, and any damage it does is caused by Falco. Likewise with projectiles than hurt anyone such as bombs, when Falco shines it, anyone can still get hit, but the damage is caused by Falco. Notable exception will be mentioned in the “Falco’s Shine vs Character Movesets List”

You cannot reflect anything Falco already “owns”

General Trajectory of reflective projectiles.
- Movement of Reflected Horizontal Projectiles: (eg. Charge Beam, Samus Big Missile, Lasers)
These projectiles simply invert 180 degrees, flying back horizontally.
Movement of Reflected Arced Projectiles: (Thrown objects/items, Curved Pit’s Arrow)
Projectiles will inverse the angle that they are currently traveling when hitting a shine, so mobile-trajectory projectile (Samus >B, Snake's >B, thrown items) will flip perfectly if they hit the shine at a non-horizontal angle. [Ratherion]


However, against Snake’s -> B (Without moving it) Depending on which part of the shine you hit, it can either reflect straight back, slightly up or slightly down.




Rumor: Falco’s Shine being “reflected”?
Oh, the irony.

There are two interpretations on what exactly is “Reflecting Falco’s Shine”, which can bring confusion – this has even bedazzled me. However neither case actually REFLECTS Falco’s shine so that it hits him on the return.

1. The first interpretation is when Falco gets frontally hit due to his extended hitbox by his kicking leg, at the beginning of his shine. The shine stalls and flashes as Falco is hit, with Falco taking the damage and the knockback of the opponent’s attack. Depending on the precise timing and the hitbox of the opponents attack, either only Falco gets hit, or both characters get hit, where Falco’s opponent gets hit by the shine.

2. The second interpretation is where Falco and his shine are inverted 180 degrees (flipped). Examples of this occurring is when Pit Mirror Shields Falco’s shine as it moves out, and when Mario capes Falco’s body as he shines. Generally, if the shine is mirrored as it is still moving out, it can still physically hit and reflect. These attacks are listed in “Yellow” in the “Falco’s Shine vs Character Movesets List”




#3.4 Falco’s Shine vs Character Movesets List
What Falco’s Shine Reflects, and what “reflects” his Shine
Characters Listed alphabetically

Character Move Colour Key:

“White” – Moves which Falco’s Shine reflects.
“Yellow” - Moves which invert/flip Falco and his shine​

Any other special notes about certain character’s moves in relation to Falco’s shine will be marked with an * (asterisk).


Bowser

Standard B: Fire Breath
Final Smash – Standard B: Giga Bowser Fire Breath [Wolfang]

Captain Falcon

Diddy Kong

Standard B: Peanut Popgun
Up B: Rocketbarrel Boost (The Rocketbarrels when they fly off?) – Needs testing
Down B: Banana. Whenever it is in the air. Gives you possession of it [Finshu]

Donkey Kong

Falco

Standard B: Blaster

Fox

Standard B: Blaster

Game and Watch

Standard B: Chef (The flying bacon/sausages)

Ganondorf

Ice Climbers

Standard B: Ice Shot
Down B: Blizzard [ro0kie42]

Ike

Jigglypuff

King Dedede

Side B: Waddle Dee Throw.

- Waddle Dees (Most common one – Dark Orange) are physically hit by the shine, and do no hit King Dedede.
- Waddle Doos (Light Orange) are physically hit by the shine and do no hit King Dedede. However the electrical attack by a grounded Waddle Doo can be reflected.
- Gordo (Spiky thing) Can be reflected and hits King Dedede.​

Kirby

Up B: Final Cutter (The projectile which forms when he lands)

Link

Standard B: Hero’s Bow
Side B: Gale Boomerang. The reflected gale boomerang does not hit Link, but may push him back.
Down B: Thrown Bomb

Lucario

Standard B: Aura Sphere
Side B: Force Palm Flame [-Nana-; Kitamerby] When shined from a distance, the Flame from the Force Palm will be negated, but will not hit Lucario.

Lucas

Standard B: PK Freeze [SlashTalon] Refer to Misc for more info.
Side B: PK Fire
Up B: PK Thunder

Luigi

Standard B: Fireball

Mario

Standard B: Fireball
Down B: F.L.U.D.D
Side B: Cape Refer to Misc for more info.

Marth

Meta Knight

Ness

Standard B: PK Flash [SlashTalon] Refer to Misc for more info.
Side B: PK Fire
Up B: PK Thunder

Olimar

Side B: Throw Pikimen [Wolfang]

Peach

Standard B: Toad’s spores. Refer to Misc for more info.
Down B: Thrown Vegetable

Pikachu

Standard B: Thunder Jolt
Down B: Thunder [ro0kie42]

- Reflecting the bolt from the sky does not change the trajectory of the bolt, but gives ownership to Falco, so Pikachu gets hit.
- The sparks created when Pikachu is hit by his own bolt can be reflected.​

Pit

Standard B: Palutena's Arrow
Down B: Mirror Shield Refer to Misc for more info.


Pokémon Trainer

Charizard

Standard B: Flamethrower

Squirtle

Standard B: Water Gun

Ivysaur

Standard B: Bullet Seed. Reflects back at Ivysaur.
Side B: Razor Leaf

R.O.B.

Standard B: Robo Beam
Down B: Gyro. Whenever the Gyro in the air (Thrown/bouncing)

Samus

Final Smash/Taunt Transformation: Thrown amour pieces
Standard B: Charge Shot
Side B: Missile (Both Homing and Super Missile)
Down B: Bomb. When reflected the bomb still goes its normal trajectory, but it will hit Samus, as Falco takes ownership of it.

Shiek

Standard B: Needle Storm

Snake

Standard B: Thrown Hand Grenade
Side B: Remote Controlled Missile
Upsmash: The mortar launched. [SlashTalon] When reflected the mortar still goes its normal trajectory, but it will hit Snake, as Falco takes ownership of it.
*Dsmash: The proximity mine can be activated safely from a distance (Refer to Character Matchup Specific Uses)

Sonic

Toon Link

Standard B: Hero’s Bow
Side B: Boomerang
Down B: Thrown Bomb

Wario

Side B: Thrown Bike/Bike Parts

Wolf

Standard B: Blaster

Yoshi

Up B: Egg Throw

Zelda

Side B: Din’s Fire (Explosion). Refer to Misc for more info. [Hawks go Caw; SlashTalon]

Zero Suit Samus

Character Selection/Samus’ Final Smash/Taunt Transformation: Thrown amour pieces.



#4 Combos:
Since there hasn’t been a discovery of reducing the lag of the shine, it is generally not used at all in mid combo. However the shine can be at the end of combos for some extra damage (6%) when the opponent starts to have a chance to break out/too far away from other attacks, also giving you some quick spacing to prevent counter attacks.

Examples include:
-Standard A’s to Shine:

-Jab to Shine [Jem]
- Double Jab to Shine
- AAA to Shine when just out of AAA range. The Shine is a good substitute to the Ftilt, and it is not a bad idea to mix them up to avoid predictability.​

- Lasers to Shine:

- SHDL to Shine
- SHL to Shine
- Ledge Hop Laser/s to Shine​

-Down Throw to Shine (Under 50% for most characters) [almightypancake]
For lower percents, only a grounded shine will hit them. However, at higher percents where the opponent bounces up higher, you can follow up with a Short Hopped Forward Aerial Shine, which can catch them off guard, and also led you to continue the attack as you land relatively close to them.

#4.1 Pseudo Trip Combo:
Due to the uncancellable ending lag of the Shine, the only possible way to incorporate it at the start of a “combo” is via the trip. However since the shine does not trip at 100%, so you still must use the shine wisely in case it is only a simple hit.

So by tripping the opponent, it enables a tech chase. In the tripped position, the opponent can only do one of 4 things:
-Roll towards you (possibly behind you)
-Roll away from you
-Get up attack
-Get up.

Rarely will the opponent just simply “get up” as it is the same as a get up attack with no invincibility frames and slightly less lag time, so that limits their options to 3.

To limit their options even more, trip them near the edge of the stage/platform. This makes the “Roll away from you option” a very bad idea so the distance they can roll away is limited by the edge of stage/platform, making them roll on the spot. If they do roll on the spot on the edge, free hit for you.

Being able to predict which one they do enables you to punish them with an attack or grab, essentially being a pseudo combo. (Think Snake’s Down Grab + Ending LAG of Falco’s Shine). However players tend to roll away to attempt to avoid Falco from pursuing them due to the lag of the Shine preventing his movement, but like I mentioned before, tripping them near the edge/platform limits this option.




#5 Misc:
Falco’s Shine vs Lucario’s Double Team [superryan]
When Falco hits him with the shine, instead of Lucario going behind Falco to counter attack, he ends up in the area behind the shine, due to the physicality of Falco’s Shine. However, Lucario can still alter the direction from which this counter attack approaches (coming from the front on), so it can still hit Falco. But it is also wise to note Falco is safe if he hits the shine from MAX distance as the counter attack will have no way to reach him.


Falco’s Shine vs Mario’s Cape [numinous]
If you hit Falco from behind when he shines, the shine will flip/mirror itself to the other side (In other words, Falco and his shine will face the opposite direction). The shine STILL continues its animation. If Falco is caped early enough, the shine can still hit physically anyone as it moves out. The shine still reflects the whole time. I could not reflect the shine directly with Mario’s Cape.


Falco’s Shine vs Pit’s Mirror Shield [superryan; thexsunrosered]
If Pit is in between the range of his shine kick and the outermost range of the shine and he Mirror Shields exactly when the shine “hits”, Falco and his shine will flip/mirror itself to the other side like in the scenario of Mario’s Cape, where the shine still can physically hit/reflect. However if Pit is any closer, as if he is actually kicked by Falco’s leg, he receives the damage of the shine but is not knocked back due to the Super Armour Frames of Pit’s Mirror Shield.


Falco’s Shine vs Zelda’s Din’s Fire (also applies the Lucas’ PK Freeze and Ness’ PK Flash) [Hawks go Caw; SlashTalon]
The shine doesn’t stop the target cursor to instantly explode, so Zelda can always get behind the shine and hit Falco instead. But if it explodes on the shine, the shine will reflect it in the way that the explosion is Falco’s, so it doesn’t hurt him. This is why if you shine JUST as Falco’s body is about hit, he takes no damage due the the explosion being his own (Remember the Shine can cover his whole body at the first couple of frames). Also, if you are close enough to Zelda and she Din’s Fire pretty much on herself, the reflected explosion DOES hit her.


Falco’s Shine vs Peach’s Toad [Chaos Leader; Seison; Pk-ow!]
When you shine Peach’s Toad, the spores gets reflected and hit Peach instead, with quite good knockback. Assuming Peach’s Toad has some initial melee hits then spores (projectiles), this applies only to Falco’s shine due to its special properties, as other reflectors put the user in range of these melee hits, disrupting it before anything can reflect.


Falco’s Shine vs Falco’s Shine
Falco’s speciality used against himself. If both Falcos shine at the same time, Each Falco simply gets hit by the other’s shine, and taking 6 dmg and the normal knockback on the shine (1/4 speed training mode). Both Falcos can be tripped, and it is amusing to see them both trip at the same time in result of this.


Snake’s Codec Taunt about Falco’s shine
This occurs when playing Snake vs Falco in Shadow Moses Island, when Snake Down Taunts.

Snake: This is Snake...
Slippy: Copy, Snake! This is Slippy!
Sn:: Whaa--! Who is this? What are you, some sort of frog?!
Sl: Easy there, buddy ~ Just thought I'd hop on the wireless and give you a holler, don't get mad!
Sn: Hacked right into my channel, huh...
Sl: But I'm not here to mess nothin' up. Don't worry.
Sn: ...
Sl: Just so ya know, Falco uses a Blaster and Reflector that I designed, just like Fox does. But Falco will kick his Reflector and send it flyin' around. Just showin' off if you ask me.
Sn: No reason a weapon can't have more than one use. In fact, I'd say that its versatility shows how well you designed it.
Sl: Hey, maybe so! I feel all fuzzy now! Thanks Snake!
Sn: Maybe next time we meet, you can design me a weapon...

So obviously Falco’s Shine was not created like this for a laugh, it had utter purpose. Falco’s Up Taunt “Piece of Cake” while he kicks around his reflector like a hacky sack agrees with this statement 110%.





#6 Developments!
Anyone is welcome to help here. This section is probably the messiest part since all this is random ideas/thoughts which we want to uncover. Kudos to anyone who helps (you will be credited, don’t worry)

Feel free to suggest and share ideas!


Things to Test/Add
- Video/Picture of LHS (A video for DShine would also be nice)
- Reflecting Diddy’s Up B: Rocketbarrel Boost when the Rocketbarrels fly off

-Why does the shine reflect Snake’s Side B differently even if it is horizontal? (Is this more to do with snake?
“However, against Snake’s Side B (Without moving it), depending on which part of the shine you hit, it can either reflect straight back, slightly up or slightly down.”

- Pictures/Videos of the Misc info


Shine to Laserlock! [Fluke]
Yes, Shine to Laserlock is possible, but not guaranteed if the opponent is not stupid enough to not tech (like in all laserlock conditions). In fact, the sole method I have atm would probably only work at completely new players. You’ll see why later.

This case I have found is highly situational and unreliable, but it did work. This is a start since the end lag of the shine is usually too great to input the first laser as the opponent bounces off the ground.

So How to do it? Well first off I needed the lag of my Shine to have finished to then fire a laser before the opponent landed on the ground. So two things were crucial for it to work, the time that the opponent falls (height of the platform), and the opponent’s glide distance. This allows Falco enough time to start shooting his laser as the opponent bounces off the ground. The method is then to aerial shine the opponent (think it has to trip) and as the opponent glides across the platform, over the edge and falls, I drop and try to get the laser to come out asap. (Fastfall doesn’t help much since the lag is coming from the Shine)

So when did it actually work? Like I said, it is based on the characters glide distance and time/height of the drop. Using Yoshi’s Island’s moving platform, when it was horizontal, I could place Lvl 3 CPU Luigi 3/5 of the platform away from the edge he was to fall off, aerial shine him, and then laserlock him the remainder off the stage. For laserlocking Falco (This time I had him on control), I had to put him a jab distance from the edge, and aerial shine him when the platform edge was nearly at its peak height.

The theory is that:
The glide time + falling time > Shine lag, so the laser can be shot to get the laserlock working.

BUT, since I had the opponent at Lvl3 CPU/Control for those two tests, the average opponent has ample time to react either when he is gliding/falling (airdodge, tech, aerial), like most laserlocks. However it is great to know that it works.



Double Shine [Fluke]
We know how to do it and what it looks like, but is there any special use of it? (Other than cosmetic appeal)


Inconsistency of Physical and Reflective Hit Hypothesis [Fluke]

There is something odd about the physical hit. Upon reflecting Link’s Bombs, most of the time it reflects, but sometimes it explodes on contact with the reflector (no, it is not hitting Falco). This suggests:

There is a certain part of the shine where either the physical hit box is bigger/as big as the reflection hit box.
OR
There is a brief time where the shine does not reflect.

These are some pictures showing what I mean:
Against Link’s Bomb

Same picture, close up on Falco + Explosion

Against Snake’s Hand Grenades



These pictures have Falco getting hurt as well, but there have been times against Link’s bomb where it explodes safely. (Doing it by yourself at 1x speed isn’t easy, not to mention to small window frame of pressing pause.)

What I hope is that we can find what the cause of this is, and find any special properties in the brief frames that the physical hit overrides the reflective hit (I’m thinking forced trip).

 

[Jem.]

Thanks for the credit. . Nice thread.

 

[Fluke]

Haha thanks. Jem, you're the most active forum member here who main Falco in brawl (You're still maining him right...*death stare* :D), I guess if there's anyone to test them atm, most likely it would be you.

 

[Fluke]

*Bumping this thread as it should be where most shine questions are answered, and also the most info about it is here*


NO I'm not just bumping it either.

I read somewhere his shine DOES make them go through the TRIP animation, which works with the idea I had before:

3:00 Falco shines this time, but Sonic is stuck on the ground? I haven't seen Sonic videos much, but it looks like a "tripping animation" ie. He is on his butt. Can the Shine TRIP people?
Well sonic was on the ground long enough to be smashed by falco, or did the cpu get lazy and cbf getting back up?/

 

[Mario161]

Nice thread about shine, now there are no big un-answered questions...

 

[Slaysya]

I like this thread, really shows the true beauty of his new shine.

 

[Jesi]

Yeah, I really can't wait for ppl to start coming up with new shine combos hehe. So far my only complaint is that it doesn't stop your moment when falling. I was thinking of using it like fox's in melee, jump down to shine ppl recovering, but since it doesn't stop your momentum, it's really hard to do without dying. You're stuck in the animation of the shine returning so you fall really far before you can begin to recover. With the up b being so short, you don't have a lot of time. Basically the move takes to long to be used like that.

 

[Fluke]

From above:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC2HytRZbGY at 2:54. The CPU uses short hop shines quite often? Does the lag of the return of the shine gets reduced if you land, meaning there is a chance for more combos?
This also can apply to jumping onto plaforms and dropping from platforms to the ground.

Hey, can someone confirm this for me that there is a possible shine cancel for falco involving landing on t he ground. This is similar to the idea of shine cancelling for fox in SS64 where the landing on thr ground reduces the lag of the shine. (Idea is to jump and shine very quickly once you leave the ground/about to touch the ground, to reduce lag = combo potential)

 

[Ryan-K]

Another wierd property of it is that like

Lucario's down b is a counter as you may know. Upon contact with lucario in his "countering" stance he teleports behind the opponent and hits them when he gets hit with a physical attack. However, when falco hits him with the shine, instead of going behind Falco like he does with most physical attacks, he ends up behind the area where the shine hit him. This is very odd because like I have experienced myself falco's shine goes through pit's forward b reflector, so it just seems to be a physical moves with very odd properties.

Now what I am REALLY curious about is that how it reacts ot being hit by mario's cape. I don't know how it acts in brawl but in melee if you caped a disjointed hitbox like marths sword it would still turn him around but the shine isn't attached to falco at all, but on the other hand it isn't really a projectile

 

[numinous]

just finished play-testing them and i have some answers to a few questions.

mario's cape does not have any strange effects when used on the shine. when caped back, the shine will not injure/stun falco. there is a funny effect tho if you hit falco just after he's thrown the shine. if falco is facing away from you when you cape, falco will turn around and the shine will mirror itself to the other side and continue the animation from where it was. if you hit it early enough, you can even hit someone behind you with falco's redirected shine.

i cannot find a way to do any sort of cancel on the shine while in the air using fast falling or landing on a plane. it has completed the full shine animation every time even when falco lands early.

 

[ro0kie42]

Falco's reflector can reflect ice climbers icy breath and pikachu's thunder.

 

[Fluke]

Another wierd property of it is that like

Lucario's down b is a counter as you may know. Upon contact with lucario in his "countering" stance he teleports behind the opponent and hits them when he gets hit with a physical attack. However, when falco hits him with the shine, instead of going behind Falco like he does with most physical attacks, he ends up behind the area where the shine hit him. This is very odd because like I have experienced myself falco's shine goes through pit's forward b reflector, so it just seems to be a physical moves with very odd properties.

Nice find! Can it be used as a safer way to trigger the counter, thus counter attack his "missed" counter (unless laser works as well, then no need for this)

just finished play-testing them and i have some answers to a few questions.

mario's cape does not have any strange effects when used on the shine. when caped back, the shine will not injure/stun falco. there is a funny effect tho if you hit falco just after he's thrown the shine. if falco is facing away from you when you cape, falco will turn around and the shine will mirror itself to the other side and continue the animation from where it was. if you hit it early enough, you can even hit someone behind you with falco's redirected shine.

i cannot find a way to do any sort of cancel on the shine while in the air using fast falling or landing on a plane. it has completed the full shine animation every time even when falco lands early.

Very interesting as well. Good thing it doesn't turn falco around in case one, or else we have some problems against mario.

Too bad about no discovery of a sine cancel yet. At least it is still quite feasible to use if used correctly.

Falco's reflector can reflect ice climbers icy breath and pikachu's thunder.

This was assumed since it also did that for melee, but I'll add that as well.




Now with more confirmation on whether Falco's shine propeties being physical yet projectile like:

What happens to Fox's shine (held down with b) when falco attacks it, does it reflect? If so, does it hurt falco? (at the moment there is no case of falco's shine actually hitting himself)

What happens if we have two falcos who shined each other as the same time? Will they somehow reflect one another? Will it clink like two physical attacks neutralising each other?

There's still more wonderful things to find out about falco shine. It is NEW after all.

 

[Tristan_win]

A neat discovery in the fox forum today, T!mmy found out that you can jump cancel with the shine and instead giving you the normal ground animation (which is slower) it will give you the air. I wonder if this will befit Falco as well?

 

[Fluke]

Anything to reduce the lag of Falco's shine would be good. It's the major reason atm which makes comboing with it super hard.

Thanks for the info. Hope someone would try that.

 

[Metal_Doc]

It would definitely be interesting if someone can figure out how to reduce that lag.
I can't wait for the new possibilities Falco may have.

 

[Fluke]

Cleaned up the first post a bit and added some more things. Attempted correction of grammar, some Australian words differ in spelling to American English, so sorry about that.

Hopes that this thread is useful to the vast majority of Falco players...and people who want to counter it when Falco starts to own with it. *Hopes for a sticky!*

Needs confirmation of that Falco's shine cannot be reflected, including the case of Falco's shine vs another Falco's shine. My theory is that is it cannot be reflected, and the Falco vs Falco case well be a cancellation of both attacks.


Waiting for Combo Potentials to expand Falco's shine usage!

*also wishes to have the PAL release of SSBB to help test this stuff himself*

 

[Andromeda]

It's not possible to jump out of the shine, like Fox, right?

 

[Fluke]

AFAIK you can't do anything while Falco Shines (except "DI" when jumping-another thread is talking about something like that)

About this (Fox shine discovery)
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=149888
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=150130

First, is there an aerial lag and ground lag difference in Falco's Shine? If so, and if this is possible, then using it to set up trips/combos become more possible. Every time it seems like when something is found and recorded, another two pop up. Brawl has a lot more than most people think it does.

 

[Ryan-K]

when the shine hits pit's down b it reacts the same way as if it got caped

 

[Yoru]

First, is there an aerial lag and ground lag difference in Falco's Shine? If so, and if this is possible, then using it to set up trips/combos become more possible. Every time it seems like when something is found and recorded, another two pop up. Brawl has a lot more than most people think it does.

I don't think there is a difference in lag. There's just too much in both situations. >_<

 

[Papapaint]

Hey Fluke,

I'm gonna reference this thread in my falco guide. That cool?

 

[Fluke]

Hey Fluke,

I'm gonna reference this thread in my falco guide. That cool?

No problem. That's like you saying "Hey, I think your thread is useful!"

I'm reading your guide atm, seeing what I can add.

 

[tshahi10]

falco can shinespike really really well in certain cicumstances. when you are on the edge, let go and uuse the shine on an angled part of the side of the stage, the shine will like follow the curve and shinespike a person below you.
im sorry, i cant describe very well

 

[Fluke]

falco can shinespike really really well in certain cicumstances. when you are on the edge, let go and uuse the shine on an angled part of the side of the stage, the shine will like follow the curve and shinespike a person below you.
im sorry, i cant describe very well

This is a good find.

Judging by what you said:
1. You can angle the shine on the ground by means of terrain :D
2. And because of that, you can spike spike BELOW the edge whilst still being on top.


When you use the shine on the angled part, does it bounce off something then goes down? Or is the ground curved and the shine follows it down all the way instead of horizontal?

 

[Domon]

hey guys i am new to smashboards but not the game. really loving falco in this game and thought i'd chime in some info. don't know how useful it is but i noticed it wasn't listed. falco's shine can do dmg through walls i find this helpful since characters like marth have their range decreased and hitting people through a wall has become harder.

 

[Domon]

edit: computer lagged and i posted twice

 

[Rampage]

I never thought about throwing out the shine after the neutral A attack.

Great info

 

[Fluke]

Thanks guys.

I'll update the thread again when I get more info about how to angle the shine.

I will add the "shine-can-go-through-walls" thing as well (wall hax) when I update.

 

[Mr_R]

Well when falco does a SHDL and when you land you can do a shine instantly

 

[falco-hokage]

Yes. The Shine. aka Reflector. Even more special for Falco.

"Is is really useless? What can it do?"
Let's keep it all in one place?

Note:
-This what I gather from reading this Falco sub forum. I wish I had the game to test it all, since I’m in Aus waiting for PAL.

The info here is not perfect, new things are being found and it’s up to you to share them. I will give credit to the people who present it here, if I forgot, just tell me.


Uses:
-Reflecting Projectiles
-“Good for containing (stopping) an enemies attack” (From Smash Dojo)
-Catching people off guard (Especially Aggro players)
-Quick Spacing (When caught in a difficult position)
-Edgeguarding (if they do not quite sweetspot the edge), not exactly the best.
-Tripping people (Evil, but once they are down, you can punish almost anything they try to do. The picture at the start shows Link tripping)
-Combo Potential? (Refer further down)

-Shorthop + Shine Usuage?



Description of attack: (Refer to picture at very beginning for a visual)
-Falco grabs out his reflector and kicks it forward (quite fast). It physically hits only when it’s moving outwards. It then starts to return, but on the return, it does not physically hit. It reflects all the time whenever the reflector is out. If no lag-cancelling of the shine is done (if even possible), Falco is unable to move until the shine comes all the way back to him.
-Its true hit box is possibly the centre mini hexagon of the shine (very small), explaining why sometimes it doesn’t hit.
-It does not cover Falco’s back, leave to easy punishment from behind.
-The shine cannot be held out. It goes out and returns.



Properties:
-Short Ranged “Projectile” which acts like a physical attack (Non energy)
-Slight Knockback and stun if hit during the beginning to mid stages of mid flight (Credit to Yoru)
-Trips people when you hit them at the full ranged extent of the attack (Credit: superryan – mentioning the trip. Yoru – How/When it occurs)
-Low damage: Around6%
-Can reflect projectiles:
Increases the damage (Guessing 1.3 multiplier), same speed
Less obvious “projectiles” the shine can also reflect include the Icy’s Blizzard and Pikachu’s Thunder (Credit: ro0kie42)
-Can hit multiple opponents physically

-Cannot alter the angle it comes out (like Link’s boomerang). It always moves horizontally forward from where you shine and because of this, you can do this during vertical movement to slightly curve its trajectory.
-Can be reflected? (Pit's Side B does not reflect it)
-Cannot be eaten by Wario's Standard B attack- Bite




Combo Potential:
Since there hasn’t been a discovery of reducing the lag of the shine, the shine is usually at the end of combos for that extra 6 dmg when the opponent starts to have a chance to break out.

-Jab to Shine (Credit: Jem)
-AAA to Shine when just out of AAA range.
-Down Throw to Shine (Credit: almightypancake)

-CPU’s have some uses of Falco’s shine?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC2HytRZbGY
Shine Stun then follow up with jab? (1:48-1:51 of the video). It looks like it needs certain requirements such as hitting them when they as about to jump.




Interesting Stuff:

-Counter Lucatio’s Counter!



-Reassurance in the situation of Mario’s Cape vs Falco’s Shine


Hope this thread has been useful to you. *Hopes even more for a sticky!*

i have learned that right after a shorthop if directly in front of an enemy and the enemy is either a tall character or is airborn (shff dair, and one of the best starters ive noticed is the dgrab, it should be used fast and strategic so that they wont think to di right away) then if the reflector is connected while rising right where it seems that he is hitting with the shine and the kick that sent it out, u will get a trip **** near every time(i counted 9 trips in a row)

 

[falco-hokage]

Thanks guys.

I'll update the thread again when I get more info about how to angle the shine.

I will add the "shine-can-go-through-walls" thing as well (wall hax) when I update.

it seems the shine gets angle by falco's momentum, like if you short hop then do it, it will get kicked upwards, but if you short hop then do it as you are falling the shine goes downward(fast fell shines gets trip almost every time, if you learn to ff then shine so that the shine hits their legs its pretty easy, press down as you reach the peak of the short hop and as he begins to fall fast shine and it will hit his legs and should trip the enemy.)

 

[Fluke]

K, I updated it.

Anyone know if reflecting diddy's bananas gives you possession of it? If so, then is it then like the ultimate counter agaist diddy.

 

[mugwhump]

i have learned that right after a shorthop if directly in front of an enemy and the enemy is either a tall character or is airborn (shff dair, and one of the best starters ive noticed is the dgrab, it should be used fast and strategic so that they wont think to di right away) then if the reflector is connected while rising right where it seems that he is hitting with the shine and the kick that sent it out, u will get a trip **** near every time(i counted 9 trips in a row)

I made a big fat thread about attacks that cause tripping and I'm convinced this is not true.

Falco's reflector causes tripping COMPLETELY RANDOMLY (with about a 50% trip rate), regardless of how the reflector hits them. It doesn't matter if he gets them with the tip, with the middle, with the start, with the end, going up, fastfalling, it's all the same.

 

[iredecent]

sick this thread helped my game out alot. i was wondering does the shine affect any projectiles used in final smashes.

 

[Wolfang]

I made a big fat thread about attacks that cause tripping and I'm convinced this is not true.

Falco's reflector causes tripping COMPLETELY RANDOMLY (with about a 50% trip rate), regardless of how the reflector hits them. It doesn't matter if he gets them with the tip, with the middle, with the start, with the end, going up, fastfalling, it's all the same.

IDK about that; I have been using Falco's reflector all day today to trip Sonic, Ike, and Yoshi players, seemed to work everytime. I also dont know if its trip %tage when you shorthop into the shine, but its effective for catching people off guard.

My question was about reflecting Pikachu's Thunder. I did it 3 times already, but everytime I did it, i was using the reflector on the cloud itself. Does it work from anywhere?

sick this thread helped my game out alot. i was wondering does the shine affect any projectiles used in final smashes.

As for that, well, you can reflect Giga Bowser's flames, but I do wonder if it works for things like Landmaster mortars and Yoshi's flame breath, but seeing that they can'ttake damage while using the FS, it would be straight defense anyways lol. I dont think it would have nay affect on the Mario Finale either.

 

[Fluke]

Hmm, if tripping can occur anywhere of the shine and at a high percent chance, (50% is whooping huge -explains how it could look like 100% if lucky flukey) then even better!

Anyone wanting to support either if it has to be at a certain moment of the shine or can it be anywhere like mugwhump said? I have a feeling mugwhump has his data as supporting evidence.

On seeing mugwhump's thread, the shine stops tripping at around 122dmg-for bowser? (I glanced at your thread quickly sorry)

 

[Codi]

good nice job getting this all down

 

[Hawks go Caw]

Not sure how useful this is, but if Zelda uses her ball of fire attack thing and it explodes on the reflector, it won't get reflected back, but Falco won't take any damage. I've only done this on the computer so I'm not too sure if Zelda's fireball explodes on impact on the reflector or if the computer just so happens to release it everytime it reaches the reflector.

 

[Drakuaza]

add the "dead" spot thingy D:

 

[Fluke]

Will do will do, updating it now.

In terms of the dead spot's size, it looks like just a bit less than the jab range?

And also, does the dead spot also become a time when it does reflect projectiles? (this one would be hard to test)


Gosh, no one is answering my pass questions.

It's all about bananas, does reflecting them give you possession of it? (making diddy trip when he goes over it). If it did, diddy players are going DOWN!