All of Zelda's Options for Brawl

[Luthien]

Hello people!

Frankly, I'm getting tired of having to scan every single page of every single thread only to find debates about Sheik, light arrows and whatnot, so I've decided to devote a thread to every idea. I hope this makes everything a little more organized so that anybody can see what everyone else is thinking, and all opinions are represented. If I've forgotten an idea or if you have a new one, feel free to post the idea with pros AND CONS.

Sheik Options: Because you can try to ignore him/her, but s/he will always be there to haunt you in your sleep.

Opinion 1: Keep Sheik as Down-b.
Pros: Can switch mid-match; gives each character more options
Cons: Unbalanced (Sheik>Zelda); Takes up a special move slot; non-canon (debatable?)

Opinion 2: Bump Sheik out of Brawl. Period.
Pros: Room for a new character; fits with Twilight Princess theme; gives Zelda a new down-b
Cons: Loss of strong character; too much TP representation

Opinion 3: Separate Sheik from Zelda, but keep him/her in Brawl
Pros: Zelda & Sheik each get a 'complete' moveset
Cons: Character slot may get taken up by Sheik, and not potential new character; non-canon (debatable?)

*Opinion 4: Sheik as Final Smash
Pros: Sheik in Brawl (debatable); complete moveset for both
Cons: Takes up Final Smash (better options?); tournaments without Final Smashes(don't actually know if that's an issue or not, correct me if I'm wrong)
*A bunch of final smash ideas involving Sheik can be put into this category. Some involve attacks, some involve simply switching without an attack.

Now that Sheik's out of the way, here are the options for alternate special moves:

Opinion 5: Light arrows
Pros: Good offensive ranged attack; may counter camping; TP based
Cons: Too many bows as it is/must be unique
Probability: 0-1/10
Reasons: Zelda has Light Arrows for her Final Smash, so the likelihood for a special attack isn't great. However, it could be like the Charge Shot FS, where the special is weaker.

Opinion 6: Ray of Light (as seen at end of Ocarina of Time)
Pros: Unique move; ranged
Cons: OoT move with TP Zelda(*insert universal Zelda argument here...*)
Probability: 3-4/10
Reasons: It's only happened once, and it seems a little 'out-there'.

Opinion 7: Rapier
Pros: TP theme
Cons: Too many swords already (debatable); not long-ranged; a sword for only one move?
Probability: 2-3/10
Reason: A rapier for just one move makes little/no sense.

UPDATE: Opinion 7.5: Rapier + New moveset *Please see Blink's post for more info
Pros: Additional Zelda moves; TP canon
Cons: Possibility for being unbalanced; Too much TP rep (again); TOO DETAILED (I'm talking to YOU, Blink777!)
Probability: 3-4/10
Reason: It seems a lot like the transformation move, so it would keep the logic: 'Down-b = transform for Zelda'; therefore, it is slightly more likely than the first.

Opinion 8: Ball of Light (as seen in TP with possessed Zelda)
Pros: Ranged; Unique (I think)
Cons: Requires Rapier (debatable)
Probability: 2-3/10
Reason: It seems like it would require Zelda to be possesed for this to be accesible (we don't know for sure, but that's the only time we've seen it happen).

Now for Non-Sheik Final Smash ideas (I know there are many differing options regarding knockback, damage, stun, etc..., but I want to get the actual ideas down first):

Opinion 9: Summons Light Spirits
Pros: Canon with TP; Visually impressive
Cons: Over-representation of Twilight Princess
Probability: 5-8/10
Reason: Twilight Princess is hot material at present; reason enough to put it in Brawl.

Opinion 10: Summons Triforce
Pros: Visually impressive; Canon with Universal Zelda; Works in a theme with Link's and possibly Ganondorf's
Cons: Link already has a Triforce FS (unoriginal)
Probability: 7-9/10
Reason: Although it would be similar to Link's visually (probably), the Triforce is a huge part of the Zelda universe and the odds of it being included into Zelda's moveset are in it's favour.

Opinion 11: Light Arrows
Pros: TP themed
Cons: Can be dodged (debatable); Special move instead (see Op. 5)
Probability: 10/10
Reasons: Confirmed with a REAL picture. There is no way that image is fake. I think...

Opinion 12: Possesed Zelda
Pros: TP canon; Original
Cons: TP over-representation/not Universal Zeldaish
Probability: 0/10
Reasons: A little too illogical; but then, we've been wrong before.

Opinion 13: Healing Prayer
Pros: It's better than nothing; Zelda seems to be the healer type
Cons: No offence whatsoever; needs a good attack
Probability: 0/10
Reasons: Final Smashes are known for being offensive; however, Nintendo seems to like making Zelda the healer/defensive type of person, so we can't really be sure.

Opinion 14: Summon Six Sages
Pros: Visually impressive; canon with multiple Zeldas
Cons: Too much TP/OoT representation
Probability: 0/10
Reasons: The sages have played rolls (or at least made cameos) in many Zelda games. They're not quite what I'd call likely, but I suppose they have a chance.

UPDATE: Zelda Buffs/Nerfs in General:

Opinion 15: Faster running/attack speed
Pros: Easier to counter camping; landing hits becomes easier; more balanced
Cons: Bottom tier will no longer be an excuse for losing (can't think of any real ones)
Probability: 9/10
Reasons: From the youtube video of her in action (which you should have seen if you're in this forum), she seems much faster. So, some evidence is in favour of this buff.

Opinion 16: Different/Larger sweetspots
Pros: Easier to hit enemies; spacing no longer extremely difficult
Cons: Zelda mains would have to re-learn Zelda (can't think of anything here either)
Probability: 3/10
Reasons: There was really nothing horrible about her sweetspots in Melee; she was just a little too slow to use the hitboxes effectively.

Opinion 17: Heavier
Pros: Harder to KO
Cons: Zelda shouldn't weigh very much (doesn't make much sense to increase weight to an extreme degree).
Probability: 5/10
Reasons: The boots. 'Nuff said.

I'm positive I've forgotten many things. Let me know what you think and why.

If you think that your suggestions will bring about uncontrollable contraversy PLEASE PM me with you suggestions and logic instead of starting an arguement in this forum. Also, you can PM me if you have any questions, and I can either explain to you, or if I'm too lazy or the answer would be too long I'll redirect you to forums where people smarter than me have already answered.

Please keep the Universal Zelda v.s. TP Zelda/Sheik: Male v.s Female v.s Hermaphrodite/etc.. arguments in other threads. This is simply to keep all the options where everyone can see them. I really hope this brings about mutual understanding between everyone here. *Prays this isn't a pointless thread*

 

[Stiputation]

You must marry me for making this thread.

Another option may be possessed Zelda for a Final Smash.
I'm not sure how likely that is though.

 

[Luthien]

You must marry me for making this thread.

Another option may be possessed Zelda for a Final Smash.
I'm not sure how likely that is though.

You seem to enjoy marrying people. I like you. I tend to propose to my friends every three days...

I'll put that option in... as soon as I figure out how. HELP! (First thread. I haven't even firgured out how to EDIT properly yet... Oh, yes, I'm definitely a noob).

Thanks for contributing. Pros and cons would be nice, too. Don't make ME do all the work. Ugh. You're such a terrible spouse.

 

[Iris]

Well, at this point, we can't say anything except what we'd want to see. No changes can be made by now, and with the lack of Zelda information, we can't really complain with what they've revealed.

I just hope we don't all become cynical and depressed once they reveal something and we don't start speculating any more before they do.

Con for 9: Over-representation of TP

Con for 10: Triforce-based FS isn't very unique.

 

[Luthien]

Well, at this point, we can't say anything except what we'd want to see. No changes can be made by now, and with the lack of Zelda information, we can't really complain with what they've revealed.

I just hope we don't all become cynical and depressed once they reveal something and we don't start speculating any more before they do.

Con for 9: Over-representation of TP

Con for 10: Triforce-based FS isn't very unique.

Thanks, Iris. That's the message I've been trying to get across (See Zelda Appreciation Thread, I think). One of this thread's purposes is to keep people from saying things like "Sheik is gonna be in Brawl cause she's a ninja" or "Zelda's FS will be that she turns into a swallow" etc. It's an attempt to stop creating completely new speculations, and to work with the ones we have.

Thanks for the cons.

Wait, how is a Triforce FS not unique? Does she have other Triforce attacks? Too much like Links? What about a Zelda Triforce theme?

...

Should I make another thread for debating over the pros and cons of THIS thread?

 

[blueriku]

umm this tread is good and all but one thing why does it matter for things to be cannon its brawl yea it has a little cannon background for most characters but when really comes down to it does it really matter?

 

[Iris]

It lacks a bit of originality just because Link already has a Triforce FS.

 

[Luthien]

umm this tread is good and all but one thing why does it matter for things to be cannon its brawl yea it has a little cannon background for most characters but when really comes down to it does it really matter?

This question was covered about six hours ago in the Zelda Appreciation thread. For a summarized answer, (because I'm attempting to keep this thread from turning into another warzone...) there is a line that Nintendo can't cross. Zelda can't summon space ships. This is where cannon is appreciated. See that thread to get more details.

 

[Iris]

The idiot argument would be "but they never said Zelda COULDN'T summon space ships!!!" Obviously, canon by Sakurai's standards will allow bending the truth, just not completely defying it.

 

[Luthien]

Can someone tell me how to set up a poll, please. I'd like to know the popularity of Zelda's alternate, non-Sheik specials because... well, I'm bored and have nothing to do, mostly.

 

[Pokec]

i dont understand why they cant just buff zelda up a bit, should they choose to repeat the melee thing and have sheik>zelda.

 

[Luthien]

i dont understand why they cant just buff zelda up a bit, should they choose to repeat the melee thing and have sheik>zelda.

Take a look at the Zelda Appreciation Thread, Pokec. This issue should be covered somewhere in the latest 4 or 5 pages. Hope that helps.

P.S. For those of you who haven't noticed, most of my options and junk come from that thread. It's a good read. You might want to go over some of it before asking questions in here; that should save you some time.

 

[blink777]

I had made a thread about ideas for non-Sheik DownB stuff, but it seems to have disappeared (or been deleted ) since I made it months ago.

DownB - Twilight Princess Moveset
The basic concept here is that Zelda would pull out her Rapier and would gain a moveset more suited towards her Twilight Princess appearance.

I had pictured her normal A attacks resembling a fluid style of sword wielding, but still having enough "punch" to make it more than just showy. I always thought of the Elven fighting style from The Lord of the Rings media franchise (Elrond and Haldir from the movies, Arwen and Glorfindel from Battle for Middle-Earth, Idrial from The Third Age).

Neutral-B: Triforce Attack. Derived from the move she did while possessed in which she lit up the floor with searing triangle. In Brawl, I thought it could be much smaller, and only happen on the ground directly below her. If used in the air, it would form on whichever platform is under her (and would do nothing at all if she wasn't over anything). Possible anti-juggle.

Side-B: Light Arrows. Insert multitude of ideas here.

Up-B: That rocket-like move she did while possessed where she basically dove sword-first. I'd see it working like FireFox, but with less windup, but slower movement when its actually launched.

Down-B: Put away sword and back to magical Zelda.

One of the main problems with this was that while it would give her new moves, it would give no reason to change her overall jumping and movement mechanics (as was the case with Sheik). The move would probably end up being more like an excuse to give her a bigger moveset, rather than being an interesting "duality" like with Zamus and PT.

Someone else in the thread also had the idea to have Zelda pull out her Rapier as an item for her DownB. She'd then proceed to use it as though it were something like a Beam Sword (changing her ground A attacks, not being able to grab items or characters while holding it, and being able to throw the sword). I always liked that idea.

Anyway, I know this isn't the place to discuss this stuff, but since the thread where this was all posted is now gone, I figured it should be placed somewhere.

 

[Luthien]

I had made a thread about ideas for non-Sheik DownB stuff, but it seems to have disappeared (or been deleted ) since I made it months ago.

DownB - Twilight Princess Moveset
The basic concept here is that Zelda would pull out her Rapier and would gain a moveset more suited towards her Twilight Princess appearance.

I had pictured her normal A attacks resembling a fluid style of sword wielding, but still having enough "punch" to make it more than just showy. I always thought of the Elven fighting style from The Lord of the Rings media franchise (Elrond and Haldir from the movies, Arwen and Glorfindel from Battle for Middle-Earth, Idrial from The Third Age).

Neutral-B: Triforce Attack. Derived from the move she did while possessed in which she lit up the floor with searing triangle. In Brawl, I thought it could be much smaller, and only happen on the ground directly below her. If used in the air, it would form on whichever platform is under her (and would do nothing at all if she wasn't over anything). Possible anti-juggle.

Side-B: Light Arrows. Insert multitude of ideas here.

Up-B: That rocket-like move she did while possessed where she basically dove sword-first. I'd see it working like FireFox, but with less windup, but slower movement when its actually launched.

Down-B: Put away sword and back to magical Zelda.

One of the main problems with this was that while it would give her new moves, it would give no reason to change her overall jumping and movement mechanics (as was the case with Sheik). The move would probably end up being more like an excuse to give her a bigger moveset, rather than being an interesting "duality" like with Zamus and PT.

Someone else in the thread also had the idea to have Zelda pull out her Rapier as an item for her DownB. She'd then proceed to use it as though it were something like a Beam Sword (changing her ground A attacks, not being able to grab items or characters while holding it, and being able to throw the sword). I always liked that idea.

Anyway, I know this isn't the place to discuss this stuff, but since the thread where this was all posted is now gone, I figured it should be placed somewhere.

Thanks for the ideas. Personally, I don't think it's likely, but it seems you put thought into it and that counts for everything with me. I'll kind of shorten it when I put it in the original post, though, if you don't mind (trying to keep things simple ^^'). I might actually add a pro/con or two, as well. People can always look at the details in your post.

 

[blink777]

Personally, I don't think it's likely, but it seems you put thought into it and that counts for everything with me.

Oh yeah. Forgot to mention that I don't think there's a chance in heck it's going to happen .

I'll kind of shorten it when I put it in the original post, though, if you don't mind (trying to keep things simple ^^').

I should hope you would. Not doing so would have made for an abnormally long section in an already long post .

 

[Luthien]

UPDATE: (Woohoo! Figured it was about time to go into more detail)

I'm going to now go in depth regarding Zelda's alternate special possibilities, because I don't think my first post does them justice.


Opinion 5: Light arrows

Some givens: Zelda's arrows, being magic, would not be affected by gravity. Zelda would generate the arrows from her palms (like many of her other attacks). The bow would be pulled out of thin air in less than a second, because this is Nintendo and they can do whatever they want.

Sub-option 1: Stun
When the arrows strike your opponent, they become unable to take action, totally vulnerable. Something I would like to happen is that the higher the enemy's damage percentage is, the longer the stun lasts.
Some problems would be: How would stun work when edgeguarding (stunning a recovering opponent could be considered unfair)? I particularly like this idea, and would appreciate it if someone could find a solution to the above problem.

Probability: 2-3/10
Reasons: Arrows have never stunned in the past. In fact, Melee only had one stun special move, and the range stunk. That makes me think that it has little chance for the next Smash.

Sub-option 2.0: Chargeable
Zelda pulls out the bow, and the farther she draws out the arrow, the more damage/knockback/speed it has. If combined with Sub-opt. 1, would stun would last longer depending on how long it's charge. Some advantages to this would be that you had more control over when the arrow is fired, and a semi-realistic drawing speed could be animated (hopefully faster than Link's bow in Melee). Some disadvantages would be that it would probably decidedly slower than Sub-opt. 2.5 would be.

Probability: 5-6/10
Reasons: It seems pretty fifty/fifty either way, but all the other bows are chargeable, so I'm assuming Zelda would follow suit.

Sub-option 2.5: Non-chargeable
Zelda pulls out the bow and it takes a pre-determined amount of time to fire (like Link's boomerang side-b/Fox's lazers/etc...). The damage/knockback/speed (or stun) is also predetermined, and always the same (not counting stale moves factor). An advantage to this would be that this option would probably be faster than S.O. 2.0. However, I can't picture it being fast enough to be a useful projectile in battle (which Zelda desperately needs), and slow enough to be kind of realistic (for Nintendo anyway) and 'prettied up'.

Probability: 4-5/10
Reasons: Like I said, I really don't know for this idea. I've just decided to go from what I've seen already; the bows are all chargeable, and I'm going with that motif. Of course, uniqueness is another factor, but I think drawing time takes care of that.

Sub-option 3: Aimable
Zelda is able to aim her bow to a certain angle before firing. Pretty straight-forward, the arrow would fire at the angle you held the bow. This is good because it would give Zelda far more control over her projectile (not needing to be level with the enemy to shoot them). However, a problem with this is that Pit already has an option similar to this. Sadly, Zelda is nowhere near the archer Pit is, so it would make sense for Nintendo to show that by limiting her ability with a bow.
The opposite option of this would be to have Zelda only to shoot straight in front of her. I don't need to go into detail with this, do I?

Probability: 2-3/10
Reasons: Not too likely. Even Pit can't aim directly, so why would Zelda be able to? Straight ahead makes the most sense, I think.

Sub-option 4: Arrows don't stun
There are three other things the arrows could do outside of stun when they strike your opponent: deal lots of damage, or have high knockback. Lastly, they could do both. Naturally, we all know that both is the best option, but your opinion is based entirely on personal preference, so there's not very much I can write here, except for the blatantly obvious.

Probability: 6-7/10
Reasons: If the bow is in, it's probably only going to do damage or have high knockback. All the other bows have.

UPDATE:
Sub-option 5: Pass through multiple enemies
It's very simple: if there are two opponents in front of you, one arrow hits them both. It passes throught the first enemy, and then through the second, damaging/stunning/sending flying/whatever. *See Sir Nels the Slayer's first post to get more details.

Probability: 1-2/10
Reasons: It's a good idea. What more needs to be said? Really, though, I can't see why Nintendo would make Zelda's bow better than Pit's. Sorry, all of my probabilities are based on the other bowmen of Brawl.

Sub-option 6: Limited ammo
Zelda has a limited number of arrows which she can use. I don't need to say more, do I? A question to be considered is, should they recharge, like a shield does if you don't use it for a while, or should they run out when they run out? Whatever your personal preference.

Probability: 1-2/10
Reasons: It just doesn't make sense that Zelda would be the only one who's ammo ran out. I can't picture the designers even thinking of it.

LIKELIHOOD AS A WHOLE: 0-1/10
Reasons: Confirmed as a FS. You never know, though.

*Phew*, this really blew the wind out of me. Light arrows are the most popular option, so I went into as much detail as I could. Of course, I'm sure I forgot stuff, so suggestions and other ideas would be great.

UPDATE: Other Moves

Opinion 6: Ray of Light

Some givens: This would look like it did in OoT. Seeing as how you're on the Zelda forum reading this thread, I'm assuming you've either played the game or at least heard of it. If you haven't, Zelda's palms produce a golden beam of light that covers the distance between her thighs and her nose.

Sub-option 1: Stun
Ah, yes, another stun option. Seeing as how this is all Zelda seems to be able to do to Ganondorf (See OoT, WW, and TP), this is a predictable option. The beam (in my mind, anyway), would cover about half the distance of Final Destination. Like all light, the beam would slowly fade away and get weaker the farther it would travel from Zelda. Like all stunning issues in my mind, how would this effect edgeguarding (cheap again)? I was thinking it could drag its victim towards Zelda if they get caught in it, but that didn't happen in OoT, so its neither cannon nor likely.

Probability: 5/10
Reasons: The beam stunned in OoT. So having it stun in Brawl would make perfect sense. It entirely depends on what the designers would want.

Sub-option 2: Damage
If the enemy gets caught in the beam, they get pierced by repeated, fast, low-knockback strikes until they are pushed out of it. Sort of picture it like Sheik's multijab attack, only it has way more range.

Probability: 5/10
Reasons: This is Smash; damage and knockback are pretty much the foundation of it. A special attack dedicated only to stun just doesn't really work. Of course, if you haven't notice, I've made both options 50/50. I really have little/no idea for probability regarding this move.

I'm not sure if there are more ideas regarding this move, so if I've forgotten something, you know what to do.


Opinion 7: Rapier

Some givens: Zelda isn't going to carry a sheath around (or we would've seen it by now). Nor is she going to going to pull it out of her dress (not exactly Nintendo's style); I'm guessing if she has this move, she'll pull it out of thin air, like Link with all of his pojectiles.
The rapier would look like it did in TP.

Sub-option 1: Slice/jab
Zelda pulls out the sword and slices/stabs. Simple concept: she hits, enemy hurts.
*I haven't paid much attention to this idea, so somebody please inform me as to what the details are specifically.

Probability: 2-4/10
Reasons: Zelda isn't Link: pulling an unseen object of that size out of nowhere within a split second just doesn't seem to fit with her.

Sub-option 2: Ball of light
Like in Twilight Princess, Zelda generates a ball of light from the sword and fires it at the enemy. See Opinion 8 for more info.

Probability: 1-2/10
Reasons: Sub-option 1 issues, but now she has to generate a light sphere too.

I didn't put a whole lot of detail into this section because I either don't know what I'm talking about (See option 1) or I'm not wasting time typing something twice (See option 2 and Opinion 8). Sorry. ^^'


Opinion 7.5: Rapier and extra moveset

Some givens: Oh, just take a look at blink777's first post. I'm not typing all THAT out twice.

Probability: 1-4/10
Reasons: If they decide to use the rapier, they'd probably 'go all the way'. I don't think the desingers would back out if they went to the trouble of intergrating the rapier in the first place. Of course, they have to put the rapier in first.

Opinion 8: Ball of Light

Some givens: In this case, Zelda is NOT using the Rapier to create the sphere of doom (what I think it should REALLY be called). I'm guessing the either hurls it towards the enemy with an overhand throw (underhand is sissy, face facts), or she puts her palm forward and it shoots off on it's own.

Sub-option 1: Stun
The moved stunned you in TP (in true Princess Zelda fashion), so why not in Brawl. When it hit's your opponent, they burst into electric light, like Link does in TP (or for those of you who haven't played yet, like Zelda's fair's sweetspotted after-effect).

Probability: 3-4/10
Reasons: Like all the other stun options, I don't think they'd do that instead of knockback or damage; they'll probably keep it like all the other moves.

Sub-option 2: Damage
The ball not only stunned you in TP, it hurt, too. So, the ball of light would in this case deal damage. This sub-opt. could be combined with with sub-opt. 1 as well.

Probability: 4-5/10
Reasons: See above.

Sub-option 3: Knockback
This move could push away from the TP Zelda universe and come closer to a Universal Zelda approach using this option. When the sphere of doom hits your opponent, it would send them flying away. Of course, any move that deals knockback automatically deals damage, so this option would always combine with S.O. 2. However, I don't think it could work with S.O. 1.

Probability: 4-5/10
Reasons: Pretty much the same as S.O. 2, it's just a matter of if the knockback is greater than the damage.

All of these options can apply to Opinion 7's second sub-option as well. I just felt the details would be better off in this category.


As usual, if I've forgotten anything or if you have something you want to add, post your stuff and I'll put it in.

P.S. Sorry for the constantly long posts. I just like to cover everything, being the perfectionist I am (spelling errors don't count).

 

[blink777]

Thanks for keeping this thread up to date and very informative in that strange, not-really-information kind of way.

 

[Luthien]

Thanks for keeping this thread up to date and very informative in that strange, not-really-information kind of way.

Thank-you for the compliments. I'm doing the best I can seeing as how none of this is actually fact at all (probably), and will have to be removed February 10th. I suppose I had better do the rest now... *sobs*. Joking, it's actually quite fun.

 

[Sir Nels the Slayer]

I have a theory pertaining to both Zelda's Down-B and Final Smash, the two moves that have been left in the dark. These both involve having Zelda summoning her light bow from Twilight Princess. However, the Final Smash version would be far more powerful than the normal version. I'll start with the Down-B version.

Down-B Version
Zelda calls upon the spirits of Light, which give her a bow with four arrows, one from each spirit. When this bow is active, Zelda's normal jab attack and neutral air attack will be replaced with her firing an arrow. The arrows will go very quickly, but straight in front of her(exactly like TP), dealing damage to anyone in its path. Now, here's something that could be unique to the arrows. The arrows will impale whatever target it hits, meaning that if it hits someone, it'll go straight through them, potentially hitting a second or multiple enemies. The bow will go away after either the player hits Down-B again, or her four arrows expire. Now, you ask, why would she want to take off her bow? Well, a drawback to having the bow equipped could be that you cannot pick up and use items. So, if you wanted to use items, you'd have to desummon the bow first.

Final Smash Version
Like the Down-B version, she will call upon the Light spirits to give her the bow, and four arrows. However, these ones will be far more powerful. Instead of simply dealing damage, they will both deal damage, and stun the enemy for some time. So, like someone else mentioned in this thread, if you hit someone trying to recover with an arrow, you've pretty much killed them, which makes perfect sense for a Final Smash. The same impaling effect could occur, stunning multiple targets, assuming they were dumb enough to stand in a line while someone has the Final Smash ball. Now, I'll get more specific on what you could do with a stunned opponent. I think that if you stunned someone with an arrow, you ought to be able to hit them with another arrow, and it'll knock them back with a force similar to that of the Homerun Bat, assuring death. I'm not sure about this, however. Another thing which could be done with a stunning opponent is to simply be kicked around like the ragdoll they are. I think they should be revived after a single hit, though. Theoretically, in a team battle, you could jab your ally out of the stun to save them from sure death by a second arrow. Or, an enemy could abuse the stun, and take the kill for themselves, or at least from you. The same drawbacks apply, however. Zelda's jab and neutral air would be inaccessible, and there are only four arrows before the Final Smash wears off.

So, that's my idea. What do you guys think?

 

[blink777]

You know, I never even thought of having the bow work as an item. I really like the concept; too bad it's too "out-there" for us to hope it will be tried in the game. Good work though!

 

[Luthien]

Sir Nels the Slayer: Thank you for your thoughts. I found the going-though-multiple-enemies to be very creative. I'll add those to their respective categories (summarised, of course). I also liked the con where she couldn't pick up items while using the bow. Final Smash wise, I loved how she would only have four arrows.

Now for some questions:

1) I like the phasing (w/e) arrow idea, but like I've brought up many times before, that may make Zelda's bow better than Pit's, and I don't think that makes sense. Of course, that's just a personal opinion.

2) The not picking up items con probably won't be a con in tournament play, which is what matters most to many people. Is there anything else you could come up with to make it more balanced?

3) For the down-b in particular, how long would it take to summon the Light Spirits? Keep in mind it should be realistically long, but short enough to keep her from getting massacred in one-on-one play.

4) Final Smash ammunition: what about three arrows (one Light Spirit provides for the bow)? There can only be a max of three opponents in a battle for Brawl anyway, so the number seems to fit better to me.

Once again, thank you for the idea.

Edit: I'll cover your second idea when I summon up the will to go into the Final Smashes with more detail.

 

[Iris]

I like the idea of summoning the bow, but firing in a straight line sounds pretty lame, unless it doesn't curve down as fast as Link's and shoot faster.

For the final smash, I like it, but I think it gets to complex. Just a simple 2 second stun period is good, as well as more control or precision with the arrows. I'd also like to see them fired downwards at a 45 degree angle when used in the air, similar to Sheik's needles, that way they're far harder to evade while recovering.

I'm not sure how fair it would be for Zelda to only have a few arrows though. She could hold on to them and stay in FS mode for a really long time or use them all in a second. I'd rather she have an infinite amount in a short amount of time, maybe 20 or 30 seconds considering they wouldn't have much knockback each, just the ability to stun. It sounds fair though that her ground attacks and neutral air would be taken up by the bow techs. Also, summoning as a B move shouldn't take much longer than it took her to transform in Melee.

 

[blink777]

2) The not picking up items con probably won't be a con in tournament play, which is what matters most to many people. Is there anything else you could come up with to make it more balanced?

No offense to any competitive players, but the developers shouldn't be worried about this in the least. The game is made to be played with items: I realise why they have to take them out for their tournaments, but they make up far too small a percentage of the people who will buy this game to warrant the developer's attention in a matter like this.

 

[Luthien]

I'm not sure how fair it would be for Zelda to only have a few arrows though. She could hold on to them and stay in FS mode for a really long time or use them all in a second. I'd rather she have an infinite amount in a short amount of time, maybe 20 or 30 seconds considering they wouldn't have much knockback each, just the ability to stun. It sounds fair though that her ground attacks and neutral air would be taken up by the bow techs. Also, summoning as a B move shouldn't take much longer than it took her to transform in Melee.

I don't think it would be unfair at all.

First, it would make her unique. Think, all the other final smashes are based on time limits and triggers/etc. Once Samus gets the Smash Ball, she can be hit and the Smash ball will fly away if she doesn't use it in time. Zelda could use the smash ball right away and have the arrow option without worrying about being hit and losing her oppurtunity.

Zelda is all about spacing and caution. She has the Triforce of Wisdom, not Power (blunt attacks) and Courage (immediate, determined action). All right, those aren't the exact characteristics of power and courage, but you know what I mean. Zelda (or Wisdom, rather) is about waiting for the right moment and taking it. This would just take that part of her character to a whole new level.

Widom --> Mind. Think of the mindgames no time limit would offer. Zelda would have such an advantage here, keeping the enemy paranoid, because they know that there is no (or very little) pressure on her end. They'd know that she's got all the time in the world; she can wait just a while longer for them to slip up and become open.

Of course, the fact that there would be so few would keep this from being considered broken. It's kind of like fighting a Samus with a charge shot fully loaded in Melee, only worse.

Edit: Like blink777 said, this idea's just a little too 'out there' (or in my opinion, good) to be likely to be in Brawl.

 

[Superninjabreadman]

Possesed Zelda for Alt Color (possibly >.>)

Light Arrows for Bv.

IDK for Finsmash.

 

[Luthien]

Possesed Zelda for Alt Color (possibly >.>)

Light Arrows for Bv.

IDK for Finsmash.

I haven't bothered to do an alternate colour section because most of them have been revealed, and I thought that's what Pappioll's thread was for. But I can add that, if people want. I'm gonna have to do the final smash section first, though. Hope you're willing to wait.

 

[Sir Nels the Slayer]

You guys bring up very good points. I'd first like to say that three arrows would be fine, too. Perhaps that could be more balanced as well.

I believe the time it takes to summon the Down-B version of the bow would be minimal, similar to that of her Down-B in Melee. Perhaps the summoning process could be uninterruptible? In comparison to the Final Smash version, where it will be similar in epic-ness and length to the cutscene from TP itself, the Down-B takes a short while. When the bow is desummoned, it should just fade from her hand, or perhaps in a small explosion of light. It should not induce any lag upon Zelda whatsoever. Or, it should induce a lag similar to that of someone simply casting an item aside.

Also, if Zelda's Down-B becomes too abusive in a tournament setting, it will simply be banned. I mean, Peach's turnips have a chance of pulling items, I think, and her Down-B is not banned. Unless that small chance is turned off in the Item Switch. If so, my mistake. Perhaps as another con she cannot use her other B attacks with the bow equipped. Since her other B attacks use her hands, and she would no doubt keep one hand on the string, and the other on the bow itself, it physically makes sense, for a humanoid character.

Also, the reason why I suggested the arrow's trajectory be straight forward serves a twofold purpose. One, it sticks better to the TP version, in which her arrows did fire in a straight line. It also serves as a bit of variety, for no other arrows in Brawl, I think, work in the same way. Pit's arrows are guided by the player, and Link's arrows are chargeable, and go in a parabola downwards based on it's charge level. This is assuming there isn't a bow item, or another archer character that hasn't been revealed to the public that has arrows that work like Zelda's.

Widom --> Mind. Think of the mindgames no time limit would offer. Zelda would have such an advantage here, keeping the enemy paranoid, because they know that there is no (or very little) pressure on her end. They'd know that she's got all the time in the world; she can wait just a while longer for them to slip up and become open.

Although I agree with the whole of Luthien's Post #24, I believe this section is pure gold.

 

[Luthien]

You guys bring up very good points.

I know; aren't we smart? *Grin*

I believe the time it takes to summon the Down-B version of the bow would be minimal, similar to that of her Down-B in Melee. Perhaps the summoning process could be uninterruptible?

Are you suggesting invincibility frames? ... I like it!

In comparison to the Final Smash version, where it will be similar in epic-ness and length to the cutscene from TP itself, the Down-B takes a short while. When the bow is desummoned, it should just fade from her hand, or perhaps in a small explosion of light. It should not induce any lag upon Zelda whatsoever. Or, it should induce a lag similar to that of someone simply casting an item aside.

I was thinking that it could be similar to Pit's, where she enters the prayer stance like in TP, and Light Spirits come onto the screen, give up the balls of light in their mouths/tails/whatever. The balls of light turn into the bow and arrow set.

Also, if Zelda's Down-B becomes too abusive in a tournament setting, it will simply be banned. I mean, Peach's turnips have a chance of pulling items, I think, and her Down-B is not banned. Unless that small chance is turned off in the Item Switch. If so, my mistake. Perhaps as another con she cannot use her other B attacks with the bow equipped. Since her other B attacks use her hands, and she would no doubt keep one hand on the string, and the other on the bow itself, it physically makes sense, for a humanoid character.

I don't think the down-b would be too abusive in tournament setting. And I wouldn't consider getting rid of the specials for the reason you gave (Zelda uses two hands for many other moves, too). But, perhaps you could just take them away by making up, side, and neutral-b different types of light arrow effects. Up-b could be stun, side-b would have high knockback, neutral-b would do high damage. Of course, the likelihood of this being in Brawl... oh well, it's still incredibly awesome to discuss.

Also, the reason why I suggested the arrow's trajectory be straight forward serves a twofold purpose. One, it sticks better to the TP version, in which her arrows did fire in a straight line. It also serves as a bit of variety, for no other arrows in Brawl, I think, work in the same way. Pit's arrows are guided by the player, and Link's arrows are chargeable, and go in a parabola downwards based on it's charge level. This is assuming there isn't a bow item, or another archer character that hasn't been revealed to the public that has arrows that work like Zelda's.

Thank you. Exactly what I was thinking.

Although I agree with the whole of Luthien's Post #24, I believe this section is pure gold.

Oh, too kind! :embarrass You made me all warm and fuzzy inside.

 

[Sir Nels the Slayer]

Are you suggesting invincibility frames? ... I like it!

Actually, I was thinking that she simply wouldn't flinch from attacks while summoning the bow. Of course, someone could probably get off a Falcon Punch, or something powerful like that in that timeframe, without difficulty or consequence. The Down B would leave her as a sitting duck, basically. Of course, this is awfully idiotic, and I would never use the move if this were the case. Invulnerability frames makes more sense, especially since the immediate, godlike presence of the light beings themselves would no doubt give extreme fortification from physical attacks of any kind.

I was thinking that it could be similar to Pit's, where she enters the prayer stance like in TP, and Light Spirits come onto the screen, give up the balls of light in their mouths/tails/whatever. The balls of light turn into the bow and arrow set.

Good idea.

I don't think the down-b would be too abusive in tournament setting. And I wouldn't consider getting rid of the specials for the reason you gave (Zelda uses two hands for many other moves, too). But, perhaps you could just take them away by making up, side, and neutral-b different types of light arrow effects. Up-b could be stun, side-b would have high knockback, neutral-b would do high damage.

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you here. I don't think the arrow's properties should be determined by which direction + B you press. Although there could be other ways to replace her B moves, I don't think this is the way to do it. I have no suggestions on how to do so myself, so I must give you credit for even proposing an alternative . Well, perhaps pressing Forward + A would shoot the arrow even faster, but other than that, I'm not sure. It's similar to how when you throw items forward, they go further forward before hitting the ground, as opposed to just hitting A.

Of course, the likelihood of this being in Brawl... oh well, it's still incredibly awesome to discuss.

I agree. I'm glad I got my ideas out there, and I appreciate everyone's input.

 

[Luthien]

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you here. I don't think the arrow's properties should be determined by which direction + B you press. Although there could be other ways to replace her B moves, I don't think this is the way to do it. I have no suggestions on how to do so myself, so I must give you credit for even proposing an alternative . Well, perhaps pressing Forward + A would shoot the arrow even faster, but other than that, I'm not sure. It's similar to how when you throw items forward, they go further forward before hitting the ground, as opposed to just hitting A.

Disagree? DISAGREE?! YOU MUST DIE!!

Lol. I know, I didn't really like the idea all that much either, but I was just pulling ideas out of the air.

At any rate, I suppose I can't put off the Final Smash section any longer... I guess I'll get to work (the New Years Eve party was canceled... nothing to do but watch movies, play Smash, hang on Smash Forums, and eat popcorn till my face explodes, regenerates, then explodes again).

 

[-spAzn-]

Wow just wow, I just got done reading most of the options and I most say I really like most of them. All of you have awesome ideas. To bad I don't really have anything to contribute sorry lol.

Though I must say I like the idea of the light arrows FS that Sir Nels the Slayer came up with. Only problem I have is the amount of light arrows you have like Iris mentioned I think she should have a limited amount of time instead. I'm not sure in your post if you were impying that you had four arrows and a limited amount of time. Or you have four arrows and can use them whenever you wanted without a time limit. If the first option is the case I don't think it would be fair. Though if the latter one is the case I guess it would make more sense for her to be limited. Other then that it's a nice idea.

 

[Sir Nels the Slayer]

I think that the idea of Zelda having no time limit on her light arrow Final Smash is perfectly reasonable. Other Final Smashes have a time limit already, but there is no limit on the amount of power they can unleash in that time. Zelda's Final Smash has the limit of ammunition instead. I think it would really put the other players on edge, because they're not going to get plowed over by some godlike existence, but they certainly aren't safe either. It also forces the Zelda player to play cautiously, too. She doesn't become a sort of invulnerable entity, like Fox or Bowser. She is just as easily killed and avoided as Zelda without the Final Smash.

Wow just wow, I just got done reading most of the options and I most say I really like most of them. All of you have awesome ideas. To bad I don't really have anything to contribute sorry lol.

Well, I'm glad you appreciate our efforts . Also, I'm sorry if I seemed a bit rude, I simply felt quick to defend my point on Zelda's FS.

 

[Luthien]

UPDATE:
Yahoo! The update nobody's been waiting for: Final Smashes. Let's-a go.


Opinion 4: Sheik

Some givens: Ah! Run away! SHEIK in a ZELDA thread?! That's never happened before! I'm so confused!! Okay, all arguements aside, I'm going to step into some dangerous territory here. Sheik would get a TP 'do, and the world would go on. This transformation could occur after any of the other final smash ideas, except number 12. Bear with me, Zelda mainers.

Sub-option 1: Cloak
Zelda puts on a cloak and changes moveset into hyper-ninja mode. The moveset would be the same as Melee's, with buffs/nerfs as Sakurai would deem appropriate. I'm not going into any more detail than that.
You may disagree with its likelihood, but it is an option so it stays in this thread.

Sub-option 2: Changes into tights/contacts
Changes into the Sheik we've all come to know and love/despise with every fiber of our being. The moveset is buffed/nerfed as Sakurai desires.

THIS IS NOT AN INVITATION TO DISCUSS WHETHER OR NOT SHEIK WILL BE IN BRAWL.

With that out of the way, if you have any Sheik ideas to add, or anything you wish to correct, let me know.


Opinion 9: Light Spirits

Some givens: These are the four TP Light Spirits: Ordona, Eldin, Lanaryu, and Faron-something. They're big, they're shiney, and they help Zelda kick Ganondorfs butt; what more could you want?

Sub-option 1: Light Spirit ownage
The Light Spirits fly around the stage, the glowing orbs in their possession harming anyone they touch. Stun/knockback/damage are all options here.

Probability: 5-8/10
Reasons: "It's representative to TP, something which is getting a lot of attention. The light spirits played a huge role, and were very related to Zelda. This is a viable option for a final smash, and a moderately likely one at that." -- Iris

LIKELIHOOD AS A WHOLE: 0/10
Reasons: Light Arrows confirmed. Duh.

That's about it for that option; it hasn't really been discussed, so you know the drill by now. If you have something to add/correct, let me know.


Opinion 10: Summon Triforce

Some givens: Yes, the Triforce. If you don't know what it looks like, what are you doing in this forum?

Sub-option 1: Beams of red, green and blue fall from the sky as the Triforce appears; Zelda has summoned the three goddesses. Din, Naryu, and Farore proceed to kick butt.

Probability: 3/10
Reasons: "The goddesses have far to many incarnations, none of which appeared in Twilight Princess. Most of all though, they've never faught." --Iris

Sub-option 2: The three goddesses come down and one of them (randomly selected) gives Zelda a gift. The gift can either be a Bow, a Rapier, and advanced Light Power. See post #41 for all the details.

Probability: 2/10
Reasons: Overall, just too random.

Sub-option 3: The enemy is traped in the Triforce (like Link's) and Zelda shoots them with a beam of light. So, kind of a combination of Opinions 10 and 6. The beam would damage the opponent for a while, and the last hit would have high knockback, sending the opponent flying. This would only damage one enemy, however, similar to Link's Final Smash.

Probability: 4-5/10
Reasons: Too much like Link's; Sakurai is far more creative than that... we hope.

Sub-option 4: Zelda clone
Zelda summons the triforce and three other Zelda's appear to assist her. The other Zelda's are CPU controlled and are programed to split up and fight each individual enemy on screen. Eventually, you would get mixed up with the other Zeldas, and your enemy wouldn't know which one is you.
Another option for this would to have Zelda's alter-egos appear, (namely Sheik and Tetra) and they give you a hand.

Probability: 2-3/10
Reasons: Once again, too random. The differences in design styles don't help matters either.

LIKELIHOOD AS A WHOLE: 0/10
Reasons: Light Arrows confirmed. Blah.

So, yeah. Please add! (Falls on knees, begs). This is a move canon with Universal Zelda, so I NEED IDEAS. HELP ME.


Opinion 11: Light arrows

Some givens: The light arrows would look like they did in Twilight Princess. For other givens, take a look at the Alternate Specials section.

Sub-option 1: Take a look at posts 19 to 32. It seems like a lot because it is. I'm not typing ALL THAT OUT. As usual, stun/knockback/damage varries.

Probability: 6-7/10
Reasons: "There's so many different ways to implement them, limited arrows, limited shooting time, a huge barrage, stun. All of those seem equally likely, and the likelihood of them appearing as an FS seem pretty good, as Zelda's proven many times how relevant lights arrows are to her and her ability to wield them. Still though, could always appear as a B move." -- Iris
"This option, to me, seems more likely for the moveset. However, if it isn't implemented there, I could definitely see it as a final smash." -- HipsterKid

LIKELIHOOD AS A WHOLE: 10/10
Reasons: Light Arrows Confirmed. Bleach.

Actually, I think that about covers it. I know I'm being lazy. You people need to twist my arm into doing this or something.


Opinion 12: Possessed Zelda

Some givens: Yes, another TP idea. Zelda's skin turns green, she get's some awesome vein issues, her eyes turn yellow, and she opens a can of wupp-butt on Link.

Sub-option 1: Pretty much opinion 7.5 with green skin and yellow eyes.

Probability: 3-5/10
Reasons: Quite frankly, getting possesed by Ganondorf at will isn't something Zelda can do at will. She might get the moveset, though. It seems illogical.

Sub-option 2: Zelda shoots black twilight rectangles all over the stage, damaging opponents. I just pulled this one out of thin air.

Probability: 1-2/10
Reasons: Like I said, I really didn't put much thought into that FS. Here's an actual reason, though: "Sorry, but Zelda's not from the Twilight Realm or anything. As far as we know, she can't use those rectangles, let alone as an attack when they were usually just pieces of people and things which formed back into a whole object once it touched the ground." -- Iris

LIKELIHOOD AS A WHOLE: 0/10
Reasons: Light Arrows confirmed. Sheikahlicious.

Question: How would Ganondorf fit into this? You decide.


Opinion 13: Healing Prayer

Some givens: Yes, a defensive Final Smash that can't kill anyone. Lovely. Wonderful. Yahoo. *Eye twitch*

Sub-option 1: All percentage back to zero
Simple, really. Zelda prays, damage goes down. Simple enough to make a person cry.

Probabilty: 3-4/10
Reasons: Every Final Smash thus far has had some offense to it. It doesn't seem like Sakurai would change that to fit Zelda, but you never know.

LIKELIHOOD AS A WHOLE: 0/10
Reasons: Light Arrows confirmed. BOAT.

UPDATE: NEW FINAL SMASH

Opinion 14: Summon the Six Sages

Some givens: The sages would appear like they did in Twilight Princess. Zelda would assume the role of their leader.

Sub-option 1: Twilight Execution
The sages line one of your opponents up and send Ganondorf's infamous sword (see Twilight Princess) into them, knocking them offscreen. Like Link's FS, but different. Sadly, this would only hit one person. It'd be nice to see them scream like Ganodorf did, though...

Probability: 3/10
Reasons: The sages didn't play a very big role in Twilight Princess, and had nothing to do with Zelda's character. However, we have seen them use this in the game, so that bumps it's chances a tad.

Sub-option 2: Six Elemental Attack
The six sages go on a rampage, attacking everything on screen with their own unique attacks. Each sage would have a different attack. The question is, which sage would you want least on your tail?

Probability: 4/10
Reasons: The sages have never displayed any evidence of being able to manipulate their specific elements, or do battle, for that matter.

LIKELIHOOD AS A WHOLE: 0/10
Reasons: ... you know. K-punch.

Question (spoiler):

Spoiler

Would the Water Sage be part of this? Like, despite the fact that he/she's dead. (Is it Ruto? Does anybody know? Anybody?)

Oh, wow. I'm being really lazy. Oh well, it's up to you people to add/correct/blah.


HAPPY NEW YEAR!!

 

[Stiputation]

I have a question.
What do you think is the fine line between Light Spirits and the Goddesses of Hyrule for her Final Smash?

I mean, what would make Sakurai pick one set or the other set?

 

[Luthien]

I have a question.
What do you think is the fine line between Light Spirits and the Goddesses of Hyrule for her Final Smash?

I mean, what would make Sakurai pick one set or the other set?

One could only happen in TP, and one could happen in any of Zelda's forms (I think). If he wants more universal representation, he'll choose the Triforce. If he wants more Twilight Princess representation, I think he'll chose the Light Spirits.

If you're asking me what he wants, I don't know. Like you said, twenty-three days to find out.

 

[Stiputation]

Right then, Light Spirits for Brawl
Well, atleast thats the one I want to happen the most xD

Which one do you prefer darling?

 

[Luthien]

Right then, Light Spirits for Brawl
Well, atleast thats the one I want to happen the most xD

Which one do you prefer darling?

I dunno. Depends on what show I've just watched on tv...

In all seriousness, though, I'd have to sleep on it. I can picture them both being awesome. Here, pick a number: 1 or 2.690771.

 

[Airgemini]

Does this confirm anything?

Idk if this has been brought up but does anyone else see that dagger looking thing in Zelda's hand? I noticed it when he updated the melee stages but I just got around to posting it...I think its just a taunt though.

 

[Panduh]

Woah...

Probably a taunt like you said.

 

[Mediator]

You must marry me for making this thread.

Another option may be possessed Zelda for a Final Smash.
I'm not sure how likely that is though.

OMG

when i first opened and read this thread you took the words right out of my mouth!!


love this thread!