Alberta Brawl Power Rankings!**ON HIATUS**

[x After Dawn x]

I'm talking about how they are disjointed to the fact where there's a huge meteor smashing hitbox sticking out of Falcon's *** in Melee.

P.S. Colin, I don't think you know what a disjointed hitbox is.

 

[ColinJF]

No, I think it's you who doesn't know what "disjointed hitboxes" are. You are using it synonymously with "big hitbox" and it isn't the same thing.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I'm talking about when it's disjointed to the point where the hitboxes are big enough and extend beyond where they should. You need to go play Melee to understand what I'm talking about, there are really no disjointed dair hitboxes in Brawl.

 

[Spin-Dash]

See, this is a reason to why I hardly come around to Smashboards anymore.

The ****ery. Oh god the ****ery.

Cya'll at CAST4. 8D

 

[Alphicans]

You said it extends past the characters hurtbox... So it's bigger than the character?

 

[ColinJF]

It doesn't mean it extends past the hurtbox in all directions.

Like Ness's forward air extends past his hurtbox in front of him, but he's still exposed elsewhere.




Ness's forward air is clearly a LUCK BASED MOVE since it has this disjointed hitbox.

 

[x After Dawn x]

...

Wow.

I never specified the direction, I just said it was bigger than it should be.

Just admit you're wrong, you're trying to argue to prove something and you're not making any sense.

 

[ColinJF]

I was responding to Alphican's question.

By the way, saying it "shouldn't" be a certain way is pretty silly. It is the way it is, and you should just learn it... or don't play the game.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I'm not complaining about it, I'm not saying it's hard to learn. Quit avoiding my point and derailing it into a different idea. I'm saying the hitbox is larger than it should be when it wasn't meant that way.

*sigh*

You guys aren't understanding what I'm trying to explain through theoretics and how stuff is related to chance and how luck can be involved. It's something too complex to discuss with a keyboard, I'd have to talk to somebody in real life because it would take forever to explain this over the internet.

 

[Alphicans]

This is true, chance, luck, and probability, is way to complex. Explaining it takes a lot of effort, plus I don't understand it fully either. Well I am done with this debate. It's been fun, made my night interesting.

 

[Beeble]

I don't think you're getting what I'm saying.

You're basing your information on theoretical knowledge, not empirical knowledge that will actually happen during play. If what you're saying is true, and fully understanding the properties of your characters' attacks means a full intentional hit on a disjointed hitbox, then you're basically saying that 100 % of the time you will land your combos and hitboxes. In real-time gameplay, this does not happen. There is no such thing as a "perfect match" because of this. You cannot land every single perfectly spaced hitbox on things such as Fox's shine spike. You may be consistent in getting these spikes, but you'll still miss sometimes. Because of this, there will be times where a missed hit will hit because of its disjointed qualities. This is luck. With hitboxes this big, you don't have to be precise in Meleel, you simply have to be accurate, Levi.

Disjointed hitbox data is empirical.

I have learned these hitboxes, no matter how disjointed they are, and as a result, I can hit with moves more consistently because I know exactly where they hit (empirically), not where I think they hit (theoretically).

The rest of that post makes little sense (missing shine spikes due to disjointed qualities? do you proofread that sh*t?), as an understanding of the theory behind something does not grant control over the practical application. Then there is also the part that I take offense too, the same way it offended me during the EVO 2009 rules debate. And that is a misunderstanding of what random is in a game.

Random events denote that a player has no contol whatsoever over them. Examples include peaches turnips and tripping. Examples do not include powershielding, tippers, and shine spikes. These things are purely in the controls of the players and are a result of timing and spacing, or to sum up in a word, skill. Techchasing is skill. One player picks where they are teching, one player chooses where they chase, and both are controlled events. If you are guessing randomly, you aren't playing smart. Many times things will happen not as a result of skill but still the result of controllable variables eg. unintentional reverse knees.

Also, I call total BS on the accuracy remarks of melee. Tippers have tiny hitboxes, shines are not disjointed and have tried resting people? It ain't a walk in the park. Sure, some hitboxes are huge (see ganon... all moves), but that just means you can be precise in other ways. Good Ganon players know how big the Dair hitbox is (up to his effing head), and so when they chain stomps on someone and they go above Ganon's feet, they know they can still stomp them. Melee is a game of inches, brawl is a game yards (miles if you use snakes tilts).

 

[victra♥]

This whole thread made me laugh so hard.

 

[kithkin]

Marths sword is a disjointed hitbox, because you can't hurt his sword.

That being said, Disjointed hitboxes are CONSTANT.

Idiot.

Like honestly the same hitbox is there disjointed or not, every time you use it, unless theres a glitch.

Als, saying random isn't luck is the most rearded thing I've ever heard.

 

[lemonlau36]

I'm talking about when it's disjointed to the point where the hitboxes are big enough and extend beyond where they should. You need to go play Melee to understand what I'm talking about, there are really no disjointed dair hitboxes in Brawl.

Colin understands exactly what a disjointed hitbox is. If several people here have pointed out your ignorance, then perhaps you should re-evaluate your findings. Many of us have years and years of experience in multiple fighting games, and know this subject very well.

Who is the authority on where a hitbox "should" hit? It's pretty black and white. It doesn't matter if you think a hitbox extends beyond where it "should" hit. The fact of the matter is that it DOES extend to it's known boundary, and people know this. Mike summed this up very well in his Ganondorf example.

"... a missed hit will hit because of it's disjointed qualities..."

Makes absolutely no sense. Again, this is black and white. A miss is a miss. There is no such thing as a "missed hit." An accidental hit? Sure. That's due to lack of skill and knowledge, not luck as you have stated.

I advise that you take a look at your diction. You use the word "should" as if your opinion on the game's hitboxes is correct and that the programmers made a remarkable error somewhere.

Also, fully understanding the properties of your characters attacks does not in any way imply that you will land hits with 100% accuracy. I'm not sure where that came from.

Pikachu's neutral B is a disjointed hitbox. Is that luck whenever I hit with it?

Also, how can this not be explained by keyboard? Are there certain voice inflections or hand gestures that we are missing here?

 

[kithkin]

P.S: Phantoms are also not random, they just happen randomly because of the actions of the two people.

 

[lemonlau36]

P.S: Phantoms are also not random, they just happen randomly because of the actions of the two people.

What the hell? How do you manage to contradict yourself so often, Brad? That makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[kithkin]

=3

It's a talent.

They don't happen when predicted to happen because they happen based off of where the person and the hitbox connet (or something like that, I'm not the most knowledgeable) therefore, theyappear to be random, while if someone were willing they could force a phantom,.

 

[Levi5]

Tyler define normality to me mother

er. And who are you to assume normality anyways.

I already explained this to Luke:
Say I am playing Marth, and you're playing fox.
You grab me
You upthrow me
I di the throw the same direction you are facing [away]
You chase after me and try and up air me
I time a smash di the opposite direction I was initially di'ing [towards,] but so that I only get hit by the "weak hit" of fox's up air.
I casually fall to the ground taking little damage, little knockback, and little hitstun.

This is not a simple game mechanic, this is very precise and can very easily be botched. Say I do this 800 thousand times in a row [Not that anyone can] you assume that it's simple and normal in the game by what I'm understanding as you're definition of normal.

Aside from all that let me point out one thing to you. You put an input on your controller it is immediately put into the game, both brawl and melee. Some circumstances make a bit of lag between the visual response and the input response (IE. Fox have a 2 frame jump animation and bowser having an 8 frame jump animation.) but in both games it is still immediate under the assumption that your character is idle. Now we split up the 2 games.

Melee: The game mechanics are consistent: If you L-cancel an aerial it will always end on the same frame regardless of what frame you land during the aerial.

Brawl: There is no L-canceling and the lag frames are inconsistent because of it. To make up for how "random" the timing is from the lag of a move to going to idle, they introduced buffering to brawl. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but you can input moves while in a not idle state.

Melee does not have buffering, you do not get to press a button and assume it will do it for you later. You have to know when something will begin, and when something will end. Melee players who know more about the game will generally do a lot better in tournament, because a lot of the game is based on knowledge of game mechanics. Brawl is mainly about spacing, stage control, and roll / airdodge prediction, that's not a bad thing if you want a simple game of rock paper scissors, but when you contrast it to melee that's what it is.

Why do you think I placed third with Kevin in brawl 2v2 at ADAT. Do you think Kevin knew loads about the game? That he practiced all the time for that tournament? No, he decided a few weeks before it came around that he wanted to enter it. Do you think I even played brawl since the week of it's release prior to the tournament?

Suck a

,
Levi

P.S. Don't even divert this and tell me that this is all irrelevant to your post. It covers all the points you and I have argued about.

P.P.S You've earned a spot on my ignore list

 

[FalseFalco]

i love you guys sometimes

tyler
srsly
believe me when I say I know what you're trying to say, and believe me when I say you don't know what you're talking about

Also you can't use the word "should" when describing finite, tangible, constant things (such as hitboxes, characters, moves, events). Thats the equivalent of saying a pawn SHOULD have moved two spaces when you moved him. You can't change the rules of something already existing (read: already programmed). It's also impossible for a programmer to program "wrong". That's where fact meets opinion; two realms you jump between very frequently.

Pikachu's neutral B is a disjointed hitbox. Is that luck whenever I hit with it?

Owned

I guarantee you hadn't seen this kind of thing before Mike posted it. If you had you probably wouldn't have tried to argue about disjointed hitboxes.

douchebag mode activate:

It sounds like you're frustrated about Melee because you can't land many moves simply by throwing them out there (see: brawl) and when comparing them you decided the programming was to blame.

In my opinion you're correct, the difference of programming between the games is a mistake. But you're "correct" for all the wrong reasons.

 

[Randall00]

Tyler define normality to me mother

er. And who are you to assume normality anyways.

I already explained this to Luke:
Say I am playing Marth, and you're playing fox.
You grab me
You upthrow me
I di the throw the same direction you are facing [away]
You chase after me and try and up air me
I time a smash di the opposite direction I was initially di'ing [towards,] but so that I only get hit by the "weak hit" of fox's up air.
I casually fall to the ground taking little damage, little knockback, and little hitstun.

This is not a simple game mechanic, this is very precise and can very easily be botched. Say I do this 800 thousand times in a row [Not that anyone can] you assume that it's simple and normal in the game by what I'm understanding as you're definition of normal.

Aside from all that let me point out...<etc., etc.>

This is what makes Levi the best player in Calgary. Talking the talk, then walking the walk, then talking the talk again to make the point clear. No points for diplomacy, mind you.

 

[Alphicans]

How is saying random is not luck ********? That makes so much sense. Random is an actual concept, it's defined. Luck is something that has very little definition. It's a make belief force. Random is real. "I randomly pulled your name out of a hat." Then you could say, "Wow, by luck I got picked," because it is your belief that a force was on your side, making the outcome turn into your favor. I am not talking anything smashbros now, just facts and speech.

EDIT: I never said phantom hits were random, just lucky!

 

[Solaris1110]

The **** just happened to this thread?

One ignorant statement creates 3 pages of looping arguments? You guys are so gullible. >.<

 

[kithkin]

The **** just happened to this thread?

One ignorant statement creates 3 pages of looping arguments? You guys are so gullible. >.<

It's a brawl PR, what do you expect.

>_> I hope I missed a post, because I don't see how gullible fits AT ALL.

Also, does anyone finally see why I argued with tyler so much?

edit: Luke I was mostly aiming at tylr, cause he said luck and later said random.

 

[Solaris1110]

Well, my impression was that he was just trolling for the hell of it.


Maybe I'm just jaded from viewing the WoW forums for so long... Where trolling is an art, and the more people you catch in it, the better it is. There's even a troll rating system made by the community.

In that case, I would strongly suggest Tyler should learn some fundamental aspects about debating before you try to do anything risky. It's like going to Australia thinking that "crikey" is a cool slang word, when it's really the equivalent of saying "golly" in America.

 

[kithkin]

Well, my impression was that he was just trolling for the hell of it.

Tyler has come to me on Msn about random things I've said in reply to his. He's serious. Or a terrible troll.


Most of my posts are trolling. Quality not confirmed.

 

[Beeble]

Even though we are aggressively correcting tyler, the points are no less valid, and it in some ways it is good for the newer players, as the discussion has cleared up 2 topics that they get confused over: randomness and hitboxes. They can take the points here, learn them, and not post ignorance. This prevents history from repeating itself... hopefully.

 

[Stevo]

Loud Noises!

 

[Levi5]

GG no re

 

[Alphicans]

BTW, I am officially maining C.falcon in brawl now. For all those who care (which is probably none).

 

[kithkin]

it became less cool in brawl.

 

[x After Dawn x]

In that case, I would strongly suggest Tyler should learn some fundamental aspects about debating before you try to do anything risky. It's like going to Australia thinking that "crikey" is a cool slang word, when it's really the equivalent of saying "golly" in America.

First of all, extreme irony since you're basically known for being quiet and not talking at all.

Secondly, I've been debating for years now Jarrett, you obviously don't know anything about me. I may not debate properly on Smash Boards (due to the amount of ******* and the fact that nobody can understand what I'm saying around here), but I've been able to display it sufficiently in other areas. So don't be quick to judge me when you don't know a single thing about me.

 

[Frio]

First of all this is my position

"The Moon" is just a lie made up to cover up the fact that the evil government is causing tidal waves all over the world.

Second of all tl;dr

 

[x After Dawn x]

Mark, quit saying that wherever you go. >_>

 

[Levi5]

You can't win a debate if you don't know anything on the topic, regardless of "years" of debating [so don't start a war you can't win]. If you're so great at debating, you would know not to attack someone with insults anyways; not only is that a low blow, it's completely irrelevant and probably not true. Back to the norm, I'm getting around to putting you on my ignored list. Talking to you makes me feel like I'm privileged to debate with Brad.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Then why were you insulting me?

 

[Solaris1110]

1. You over analyzed my post. I'm not judging your debating skills, I'm saying your debating skills are bad.

2. Deluxe irony since you main fox.

3. http://pepper.idge.net/japanese/

4. It's not like I'm trolling or anything...



edit: loop loop loop loop

 

[x After Dawn x]

I don't main Fox. That pic is just Sakurai's decapitation of him in Brawl.

But you should know that...I told you that I don't main Fox when I was playing you at Sid's.

 

[kithkin]

Secondly, I've been debating for years now Jarrett, you obviously don't know anything about me. I may not debate properly on Smash Boards (due to the amount of ******* and the fact that nobody can understand what I'm saying around here), but I've been able to display it sufficiently in other areas.

So don't be quick to judge me when you don't know a single thing about me.

lqtm.

You can't do it here, don't try.

 

[FalseFalco]

Tyler put the shovel down
your hole is deep enough

Noone is judging you, we're judging what you're saying. What you're saying is pretty stupid. Personally, I don't think you're pretty stupid, but you aren't doing yourself any favours by trying to argue things that shouldn't be argued; hitboxes etc.

 

[Alphicans]

I don't think he was arguing hitboxes in the first place.

*Creating snow for the snowball to roll once again* lol.