Alabama Power Rankings List Discussion Thread

[theONEjanitor]

also, what are thought about honorable mentions?

should honorable mentions be people who people voted for the actual list but didn't receive enough to make the list (like before?)

or like some people are doing, making their main list and then adding separate nominations for Honorable Mention

 

[munkus beaver]

The former.

If some people think you deserve a spot on the list, then that's an honorable mention. If they don't, then it's just backpatting.

 

[Kalm]

Winnar doesn't live in AL but if he did he would be a ringer to be on the list at this point. That being said he, by choice, participates in not only all of our AL tournaments, but in our social group as well.

I think Winnar deserves a special honorable mention not because (or at least not just because) of his placings and activity in our tournaments, but because he has improved the community and has done a lot of work for us with his videos.

 

[theONEjanitor]

there are couple out of staters that support our scene a lot that we could give mention

 

[theONEjanitor]

thus far the people receiving the most votes for the PR panel:

theONEjanitor
moogle
George
DanGR

 

[DanGR]

DanGR

do you or do you not want to be on the list.

just to be clear.

I'll be in it if everything isn't screwed up, lol.

 

[Pika_Cam]

The former.

If some people think you deserve a spot on the list, then that's an honorable mention. If they don't, then it's just backpatting.

I agree with wholeheartedly with this.

 

[DanGR]

This is my current list; it is subject to change. I looked at the tournament results for each competitor, as well as who they played, their consistency with their placements at the tourneys, as well as their consistency in going to tournaments. I did take the time to compare the results of each person with the one I placed both above and below, just so you know.

1. Reflex
2. Will_
3. DanGR
4. George
5. Elev8/Moogle
6. Elev8/Moogle
7. Munkus
8. Nice1
9. T1J
10. Cam

Honorable Mentions:
Winnar*

*-the only guaranteed honorable mention because of everything Kalm said earlier. <3 Winnar.

The other honorable mentions on my list will be competitors that didn't make it on my list, but made it on others or vice versa. (If I'm to be a panelist- that is)

I don't feel like typing up reasons for everyone's placement on my list, but I will definitely answer any questions about anyone's placement. For example, I had a hard time placing Elev8 and Moogle. It was too close a call between the two.

 

[shaSLAM]

when is the next tourney in AL or FL or TN or anywhere surrounding us?

other than game galaxy.

it falls on the last date for my drug classes.

 

[DanGR]

I don't really know.

And I suddenly foresee Cam rising a few more spots:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=238293
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16YRH0gueDE&fmt=18

 

[theONEjanitor]

the only characters whose footstool combos ppl actually seem to use in real matches are ice climbers

 

[_Keno_]

IMO I shouldn't at all be on the PR list, I have extremely limited knowledge and experience in brawl. Munkus was my 2nd MK to ever play (after pops), and T1J was my first snake. I can truthfully say I've never played more than half the cast.

Also, the PR list should be (imo) not completely based on tourny results, but also on who people had to play in the tourny. Lets say Cam made through his pool easily, but then played Reflex then Will_ and got knocked out without a single win in brackets. He would then be ranked last in brackets even though he had to play two top players in a row.

Also, Scourge and M3T have both placed great at a single tourny, but not consistently well at all the tournies. IMO, they shouldnt be ranked unless they can place more consistently.

 

[Winnar]

Winnar doesn't live in AL but if he did he would be a ringer to be on the list at this point. That being said he, by choice, participates in not only all of our AL tournaments, but in our social group as well.

I think Winnar deserves a special honorable mention not because (or at least not just because) of his placings and activity in our tournaments, but because he has improved the community and has done a lot of work for us with his videos.

Honorable Mentions:
Winnar*

*-the only guaranteed honorable mention because of everything Kalm said earlier. <3 Winnar.

I don't feel like typing up reasons for everyone's placement on my list, but I will definitely answer any questions about anyone's placement. For example, I had a hard time placing Elev8 and Moogle. It was too close a call between the two.

<3

AL is the only place I would drive 5 hours to play smash with. You guys are too awesome :D Honorable mention or not I'll keep coming back no matter what :D

Also it's pretty much unanimous that George is better than Elev8, but not by a whole lot. You probably had to be at TCS5 to see it but elev8 has pretty solidly proven he's #4 in AL.

 

[Pika_Cam]

IMO I shouldn't at all be on the PR list, I have extremely limited knowledge and experience in brawl. Munkus was my 2nd MK to ever play (after pops), and T1J was my first snake. I can truthfully say I've never played more than half the cast.

Also, the PR list should be (imo) not completely based on tourny results, but also on who people had to play in the tourny. Lets say Cam made through his pool easily, but then played Reflex then Will_ and got knocked out without a single win in brackets. He would then be ranked last in brackets even though he had to play two top players in a row.

Also, Scourge and M3T have both placed great at a single tourny, but not consistently well at all the tournies. IMO, they shouldnt be ranked unless they can place more consistently.

The key word is consistency. It's true that someone could have a really easy bracket or a really hard bracket, but it's much less likely that such a thing would happen at every tournament, which is why I insist that players being considered should have multiple good tournament results to back them up. If it's close, then I agree, you should go into more detail and find out who they beat and who they have lost to.

The overall tournament results for a person are like french fries and the individual matches are like ketchup. The ketchup makes the fries taste better (depending on your preference I guess), but the ketchup isn't very good on its own.

Players need more than one tournament or a few individual matches/opinions to justify their presence on the rankings. They need a foundation.

And don't criticize me for my metaphor, I worked really hard on it!

 

[theONEjanitor]

The key word is consistency. It's true that someone could have a really easy bracket or a really hard bracket, but it's much less likely that such a thing would happen at every tournament, which is why I insist that players being considered should have multiple good tournament results to back them up. If it's close, then I agree, you should go into more detail and find out who they beat and who they have lost to.

The overall tournament results for a person are like french fries and the individual matches are like ketchup. The ketchup makes the fries taste better (depending on your preference I guess), but the ketchup isn't very good on its own.

Players need more than one tournament or a few individual matches/opinions to justify their presence on the rankings. They need a foundation.

And don't criticize me for my metaphor, I worked really hard on it!

the problem is that hard brackets/pools, laggy tv's, death matchups etc. happen often enough that consistency is hard to reach for most players that aren't people like reflex or will_...which is why tournament results shouldn't be the ONLY factor.

but obviously they are the main factor,

maybe once we get to a point where everyone is actually good sort of like the melee scene where the results were like the same at every tournament unless someone legitimately got better.

 

[Pika_Cam]

Yes, I agree, consistency can be hard to reach, and with such a competitive state right now, the PR should be hard to reach too. I mean, the people on the rankings have enough consistency to do well at most tournaments and overcome the factors you mentioned. If I have to go up against a Marth in tournament, tough sh*t for me. Death matchups are foreseeable, which is why people have secondaries, and why we have the counterpick system. If I am asked to play on an LCD TV, I'm going to suggest we play on another TV so we don't have lag. I could get a tough match first round versus Reflex, but it isn't likely I'm going to have to face Will right off the bat in loser's bracket, because it's not likely Will would be in loser's bracket so fast.

 

[Wine]

. I could get a tough match first round versus Reflex, but it isn't likely I'm going to have to face Will right off the bat in loser's bracket, because it's not likely Will would be in loser's bracket so fast.

i had to face will and then munkus in tuscaloosa

 

[Pika_Cam]

i had to face will and then munkus in tuscaloosa

You still got 9th, so you either got a bye, beat one of them, or played someone else in the brackets. And yeah, I understand that can be difficult. I had to play Reflex and DanGR one after the other at Vulcan Gamebox V.

 

[shaSLAM]

doo... i always have to face zom b...

**** it.

 

[munkus beaver]

I have never had the (mis)fortune of fighting against reflex.

Will_ I have. He's on another tier of skill from the rest of us, I know that much. George possibly too, I haven't had much experience fighting him lately. I've lagged behind everyone in skill development due to schooling, but I'm gonna dedicate this summer to improving my MK and Wolf game.




As for DanGR's list, there are two areas where I am doubtful. I don't know who is better between DanGR and George, and I figure that Elev8 is better than Moogle. I'd put Moogle above me for now, since I know that his snake is a threat to me (snakes in general are bad for me right now) but I go even against his fox (which is what garners him most of his success: it's a **** good fox).

 

[DanGR]

What do you guys think the word "power" in "power rankings" means? Are we measuring pure skill? Or how well each competitor does in tournaments? I based my list on the latter.

As for my credentials, I've won 4 of the last 5 tournaments I've been to. I may not have Moogle's technical skill, George's twitch DI and decision making, or Reflex's creativity, but I know my matchups really freakin well, and it helps me win- which is all that should matter. And if you either remember or look at my bracket matchups at all 5 of them, you'll notice I've probably had the hardest brackets of anyone at those tourneys, overall. If you think I'm wrong, take a look.

Let's take a look at Vulcan Gamebox V (the one I didn't win). My bracket matchups (link) went like this: Beat T1J, lost to Kismet, beat General Mills, beat Elev8, beat Cam, beat Moogle, beat George, lost to Will_. I ended up 4th of 37 with no byes. I also beat Elev8, 3GOD, and ShaSlam in all of our MMs.

At BatGG5 (Link) I went through 5 straight bad matchups for Olimar, playing and beating Frank's Peach (the guy who barely lost 2-1 to Reflex's PT at BatGG4, and knocked out Moogle and someone else that was really good that I can't remember atm) in the first round, beat Zom~B's R.O.B second round, beat Midnight's Diddy/Peach (top ranked player in Tennesse), beat Ajax's Sheik in winner's bracket and grand finals. I won that tourney without any byes. I also beat Midnight in a random MM, lol. (I'm still accepting all random MMs btw, best 2/3!)

Moogle and I split 1st at TCS IV. Here are my bracket matchups at that tourney: (Link) I beat Spade first round, beat Pops, lost to Winnar, beat Nice1, beat T1J, came back and beat Winnar in loser's finals, and then split with Moogle.

The other two were Play N Trades. In one of them, I beat Munkus, Joot, and Moogle to get 1st. I don't really remember what happened at the other one, except that I didn't come close to losing a single match. Some of the huntsville/madison gang went to it. Maybe one of them can clear it up.

But yeah, I spent too long typing this. Good night.

<3

AL is the only place I would drive 5 hours to play smash with. You guys are too awesome :D Honorable mention or not I'll keep coming back no matter what :D

Also it's pretty much unanimous that George is better than Elev8, but not by a whole lot. You probably had to be at TCS5 to see it but elev8 has pretty solidly proven he's #4 in AL.

*cries* ;D

 

[popsofctown]

Wow.
That's more of Daniel talking himself up than I've ever seen in the rest of my life.

I would really like to see the PRs come closer to a composite of tournament record.

 

[popsofctown]

On an unrelated note, cheap is a modest beast. He's found a character and playstyle that has let him transfer a lot of his other experience into brawl. That's why his results are good, I could expect them to stay good

 

[Pika_Cam]

What do you guys think the word "power" in "power rankings" means? Are we measuring pure skill? Or how well each competitor does in tournaments? I based my list on the latter.

As for my credentials, I've won 4 of the last 5 tournaments I've been to. I may not have Moogle's technical skill, George's twitch DI and decision making, or Reflex's creativity, but I know my matchups really freakin well, and it helps me win- which is all that should matter. And if you either remember or look at my bracket matchups at all 5 of them, you'll notice I've probably had the hardest brackets of anyone at those tourneys, overall. If you think I'm wrong, take a look.

Let's take a look at Vulcan Gamebox V (the one I didn't win). My bracket matchups (link) went like this: Beat T1J, lost to Kismet, beat General Mills, beat Elev8, beat Cam, beat Moogle, beat George, lost to Will_. I ended up 4th of 37 with no byes. I also beat Elev8, 3GOD, and ShaSlam in all of our MMs.

At BatGG5 (Link) I went through 5 straight bad matchups for Olimar, playing and beating Frank's Peach (the guy who barely lost 2-1 to Reflex's PT at BatGG4, and knocked out Moogle and someone else that was really good that I can't remember atm) in the first round, beat Zom~B's R.O.B second round, beat Midnight's Diddy/Peach (top ranked player in Tennesse), beat Ajax's Sheik in winner's bracket and grand finals. I won that tourney without any byes. I also beat Midnight in a random MM, lol. (I'm still accepting all random MMs btw, best 2/3!)

Moogle and I split 1st at TCS IV. Here are my bracket matchups at that tourney: (Link) I beat Spade first round, beat Pops, lost to Winnar, beat Nice1, beat T1J, came back and beat Winnar in loser's finals, and then split with Moogle.

The other two were Play N Trades. In one of them, I beat Munkus, Joot, and Moogle to get 1st. I don't really remember what happened at the other one, except that I didn't come close to losing a single match. Some of the huntsville/madison gang went to it. Maybe one of them can clear it up.

But yeah, I spent too long typing this. Good night.


*cries* ;D

Amen Amen AMEN!

 

[theONEjanitor]

What do you guys think the word "power" in "power rankings" means? Are we measuring pure skill? Or how well each competitor does in tournaments? I based my list on the latter.

Apparently there are differing opinions about that.
Personally the ideal list would, in my opinion, be a list of the top ten most skilled players in the state, in order.
When I check out a state's PR list, and I see number 1, I expect that person to be the best player in the state. Not the person who won the last two tournaments because someone better than him was on vacation for a month. Not the person who got an easy pool and two byes in brackets.
Basing a list strictly on tournament results leads to things like that. I keep pointing out TN's list because it is a clear indication of this. Their list is basically a list of everyone in the state that's moderately decent in a basically random order based on the random circumstances of the latest tournament. It's hard to take a list like that seriously, IMO.

Obviously results are important, and probably the most important thing, but you have to closely consider the circumstances surrounding each result.

 

[DanGR]

Apparently there are differing opinions about that.
Personally the ideal list would, in my opinion, be a list of the top ten most skilled players in the state, in order.
When I check out a state's PR list, and I see number 1, I expect that person to be the best player in the state. Not the person who won the last two tournaments because someone better than him was on vacation for a month. Not the person who got an easy pool and two byes in brackets.
Basing a list strictly on tournament results leads to things like that. I keep pointing out TN's list because it is a clear indication of this. Their list is basically a list of everyone in the state that's moderately decent in a basically random order based on the random circumstances of the latest tournament. It's hard to take a list like that seriously, IMO.

Obviously results are important, and probably the most important thing, but you have to closely consider the circumstances surrounding each result.

I agree for the most part. I do think basing the PR list only around what rank each competitor placed is a bad idea. It doesn't take into account everything you mentioned. With that said, I do think it should be based around how well players do in tournaments, though. That's the only way players are able to legitimately prove themselves- by going out and attending competitive tournaments and playing to win. That's really what defines competitive gaming.

If the best player in the state is absent, you've definitely got to take that into account. If someone had an easy/hard pool, yeah, you have to look at that too. Here's the beauty of it all, though. We can actually look at all that stuff and try to determine how much it affected the results. That's where a PR rankings like TN's fails. It doesn't filter out everything that can skew a tourney. And that's what, I feel, a panel is for. The panel is a group of players that attends a lot of tourneys, understands what a tournament environment can do to players, and has a good feel for how well a person can place when you take all of this into consideration.

Really, I just think it's wrong to base the list around how good the players are. It ignores a lot of other basic factors that determine how well a player can do in tournaments- like my example. I generally know my matchups really well. I put a lot of time into that category. It helps balance out the fact that I think much faster than I can move my fingers. A skill based PR list tells me that it doesn't matter.

 

[Pika_Cam]

Apparently there are differing opinions about that.
Personally the ideal list would, in my opinion, be a list of the top ten most skilled players in the state, in order.
When I check out a state's PR list, and I see number 1, I expect that person to be the best player in the state. Not the person who won the last two tournaments because someone better than him was on vacation for a month. Not the person who got an easy pool and two byes in brackets.
Basing a list strictly on tournament results leads to things like that. I keep pointing out TN's list because it is a clear indication of this. Their list is basically a list of everyone in the state that's moderately decent in a basically random order based on the random circumstances of the latest tournament. It's hard to take a list like that seriously, IMO.

Obviously results are important, and probably the most important thing, but you have to closely consider the circumstances surrounding each result.

When I look at a PR list, I expect to see people who place well when they go to tournaments, and not people who "get unlucky" every time but would place well if *insert miscellaneous john here* didn't happen. I honestly think Spade is really good, but he doesn't attend many tournaments and only does OK when he does attend, so he shouldn't be on the power rankings. So, I don't doubt the skill of some people being mentioned, but part of proving yourself is doing well at more than one tournament. Also, people on the PR should be active players, constantly forced to be competitive to maintain their position or else they should lose it.

 

[theONEjanitor]

DanGR I agree. You basically more eloquently explained what I've been trying to say to people who don't think there should be a panel.

I also agree with your post, Cam. As I hinted at before, I think nu's better than everyone that's being considered for the number 10 spot, but I can't really put him there just because he has yet to prove it in tournaments.

I guess what my point is, is there are several things that determine the "top players".
Tournament results are arguably the most important thing, but pure skill at the game is also very important. And it often takes a human eye to recognize differing skill levels at the game.

 

[Pika_Cam]

DanGR I agree. You basically more eloquently explained what I've been trying to say to people who don't think there should be a panel.

I also agree with your post, Cam. As I hinted at before, I think nu's better than everyone that's being considered for the number 10 spot, but I can't really put him there just because he has yet to prove it in tournaments.

I guess what my point is, is there are several things that determine the "top players".
Tournament results are arguably the most important thing, but pure skill at the game is also very important. And it often takes a human eye to recognize differing skill levels at the game.

It's not necessarily you, Janitor. Munkus's renegade PR list threw me for a spin because it had Brown Scourge on it, which clearly does not follow this philosophy of basing the rankings on more than one tournament.

 

[shaSLAM]

after we have been playing brawl for a super long time like melee... only then will i think we'll have an ACCURATE PR

 

[Wine]

also, i think we should have a set time for redoing the PRs. like once a month or every other month. this way the resluts of only one tournament wont affect it as much

 

[Pika_Cam]

I guess this discussion is pretty much over since we've gone two days without any discussion about it. Janitor, I guess that is your cue to get lists from the panel and post the new PR list.

 

[theONEjanitor]

I've already started getting lists...but I think I will wait until after Game Galaxy to give people one last time to think about their lists.

 

[Pika_Cam]

I've already started getting lists...but I think I will wait until after Game Galaxy to give people one last time to think about their lists.

Oh yeah, I forgot about GG. Too bad that's this Saturday. I'm going to be at freshman orientation.

 

[Duchock]

Oh yeah, I forgot about GG. Too bad that's this Saturday. I'm going to be at freshman orientation.

Ditch it. Smash > College

 

[shaSLAM]

college is for nubs.
youll never get on the PR that way.
in my case not going to jail > smash.
so i wont be at GG

i have to learn why drugs are bad.

 

[Winnar]

college is for nubs.
youll never get on the PR that way.
in my case not going to jail > smash.
so i wont be at GG

i have to learn why drugs are bad.

Yo drugs are bad cut that out.

Done.

 

[munkus beaver]

Let me say again what honorable mentions should be:

If a panelist puts a player on his list who does not end up making it to the list of 10 players on the combined total, then that player deserves a mention. The legitimacy of the honorable mention comes from the list "Someone on the list thought they were good enough to be here, but not enough of their compatriots agreed."

Just use my point system idea and post the honorable mentions with their point totals so everyone can know how close they came to the list and what the fringe is like right now.

 

[Pika_Cam]

Yeah, I agree about honorable mentions. That's the only logical way to do it.

 

[Winnar]

Logical Schmogical

You guys and your srs bsnss